This is Democracy – Episode 50: British-American Relations: Past and Future

Jeremi Suri 0:02
Welcome to This is Democracy on the road

Zachary Suri 0:06
discussions and interactions across the world.

Jeremi Suri 0:09
This summer we’re going to take our discussions far away from Austin, Texas, as we meet with and talk to exciting people around the world.

Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. We’re in London, in an English pub, appropriately enough, with a good friend and great scholar, Charles Letterman. Charlie, welcome.

Charlie Laderman 0:37
Thank you very much. Thank you for the opportunity.

Jeremi Suri 0:39
And we have Zachary Siri here, of course, as well,

Zachary Suri 0:41
Hello.

Jeremi Suri 0:43
And in between our drinks and our discussion here, we’re talking with Charlie about the long history of us British relations, and the relationship of Britain to Europe and the wider world. And what we can learn from that, for today, Charlie has just published a fantastic new book called sharing the burden on the relationship between United States and Great Britain in the early 20th century. Charlie, welcome. It’s good to have you on Thank you,

Charlie Laderman 1:13
I’m sorry to take you to the one place in London, where you couldn’t get fish and chip.

Jeremi Suri 1:19
It’s okay. Well, we’ll survive with something else. So, Charlie, your book recounts an important moment in the early 20th century, when the United States in Great Britain, in many ways, for the first time interacted as not equals but as near equals on the international stage. Tell us a little more about that. What what was significant about that moment that you’ve covered in such depth in your book?

Charlie Laderman 1:42
Well, I think what’s particularly interesting about that period, is that the British are starting to come to terms with their own sense of relative decline. And what Britain is looking to do at that point, is looking around the world, looking at potential competitors, mobilizing housing, your new guys, and how I was in East Asia, but I was looking to maintain a certain sort of international order. And so it looks at what nations it could reach out to its allies to help it to maintain its position to maintain a certain sort of international system. And it becomes a major emphasis major focus for purchase policy makers from the 1890s onwards, and is that an alliance with the United States is the way which Britain can maintain its power that it can bring the United States into, and essentially get the United States to share the burden of underwriting robot order tags, your title, hence the title and then, and a book written down. This is a big emphasis on all manner of things, shared racial conceptions said, Have Imperial missions. And one of the things that does do as well is look at shared humanitarian ideals, or at least shared concern for certain minorities around the world, the one which becomes a major focus of British attention and of American attention. is the is the Armenian community. The automatic, right, right.

Jeremi Suri 3:10
Zachary, got a question?

Zachary Suri 3:12
Yes. I was wondering, how do you think United States sort of adapted its view of the world because it had, it had long thought of Britain as an enemy as someone who was a colonial antagonize, or a society that was really anti imperialist?

Charlie Laderman 3:28
It’s a great question. And the US purchase relationship is it’s so ironic in that way, but we’re sitting here in London at the moment where the main musical that everyone wants to say is Hamilton Hamilton is a story of American uprising against Switzerland. And sort of, and how did you go from that moment, as you say, when United States sees Britain as the sort of colonial overlord? And how does it move ultimately to a position won’t see return as a as a nation, based off the second mobile is one that will entertain a special relationship, as Winston Churchill calls it? How’s it how’s it going through that, that process, and it’s particularly I think, the 1890s, when it starts to shift, you have in 1895, the last real serious time in United States and the British Empire come close to going to war. Over the best way, the boundaries have long forgotten, slightly bizarre incident. But But I almost went to war with a lot of jingoism on both sides. And the other thing, which I didn’t shift things, is the Spanish American War, where Britain is the one nation in Europe, it’s quite sympathetic to what the United States is doing. And out of this, you get sort of one a sense of a shared mission in the world, a shared mission, whether Firstly, to intervene, as the United States does, on behalf of the Cubans, but also a shared Imperial mission to spread Anglo Saxon civilization and a certain mission of the English speaking people. And a person who’s been identify with that, and he’s sort of the centerpiece of my book is Theodore Roosevelt. And Roosevelt, it’s someone who becomes really the the main proponent of a strong relationship between the United States the British Empire, even though most Americans still quite suspicious of Britain during this period. So we have to do it, based mainly in England, sort of behind the scenes ways, while his president, and it’s only really with the First World War, that you have this opportunity to Roosevelt, Caesar, the United States and Britain can fight for their shared ideals. And for

Jeremi Suri 5:31
the shared interest as Robin

Charlie Laderman 5:33
Roosevelt is not some bleary eyed idea that he sees Britain, as America have a certain balance of power in Europe, and they put some basically ensures it’s maybe the United States is more secure. And so he thinks that ultimately, the United States is going to step up and play its role in the world supporting Britain, and basically, defending this certain international city come against challenges. YQKVOJM, sweetie, when you get started is

Jeremi Suri 6:05
so so we all know, to some extent where this story goes after World War Two, or during World War Two, and thereafter. Why is there this period after the chronology of your book, and the beginnings of World War Two, where these lessons seem to be forgotten?

Charlie Laderman 6:22
Why do what’s what’s fascinating at this point is that we tend to look back over the period of one side handing the bathtub in the bathtub United States, that’s not the way the British said, certainly during the First World War. And their hope is that together, United States and the British Empire can basically run the world together, the two would be co equals in the system. And basically what the Americans what the British wants to do after the personal war, is pull the Americans into a system where you have a League of Nations based on an Anglo American Alliance, which is not quite lost his vision, this Wilson, once the United Nations, sorry, the League of Nations has to be the basis for American leadership in the world, and pursuit of a new sort of international system. Ultimately, what happens is Watson is unable to convince Americans to take on that model of the world, which is you’re trying to do is get the Americans to take them to the tangible responsibilities. And so one of the big focuses of my book is the possibility of the Americans taken on a bad day in the Middle East off the First World War, for part of the cold water Empire. Ultimately, that gets rejected, the League of Nations gets rejected. And America drifts away into a really intricate disarray, doesn’t want to take on political commitment to the world, right, I will tell you that there’s a sort of a rejection of take on a leadership role in the world. And that’s partly influenced by isolationism and partly influence just by the sense that America doesn’t have as many states of the world as, say, the British, the British, and European powers feel that they have interest in being a I have been Sasha will see is mainly selling this international role based on a very idealistic business. And its really, Americans don’t take on that role. And throughout the 20s, and 30s, the purchase a desperately trying to find ways to pull the Americans back in what I think British policymakers realize, and what you see from politicians of the time, because they realize there’s always more benefits to the British about getting the Americans in, but it’s for the Americans about getting involved. And it’s how do you convince the

Jeremi Suri 8:32
Americans to take on that role? And do see Charlie that as an analog for the world we’re in today? I mean, the standard way of thinking about this is that, in the crucible of world war two the United States in Great Britain work out these differences, and for john together in churchillian and Roosevelt and rhetoric into the sunlight of the second half of the 20th century. But are we back in that world today that you’ve just as thrived of uncertainty, and particularly American reluctance to work with Great Britain?

Charlie Laderman 9:04
I think there’s definitely some, some analogous ideas from that earlier period, in the sense that the United States doesn’t feel that it needs to take on this last suede to the American public who might not necessarily feel that that they really need to take on us well, and actually, one of the things I think, has always sort of seemed to be the case for Europeans is that even though the Europeans spent a lot of time criticizing the United States, there’s certainly been a sense that international order doesn’t really work without American leaders. American leadership underpins that international order. I think one of the things one of the lessons of the Second World War, and it’s summed up in as usual, with a wonderful Churchill quote, of Churchill’s fantastic line, but no, the theme is worth fighting with our allies keep fighting without them. I think that is something that the United States will ultimately come to recognize if it does project a certain international projects. And International, you’re faced alliances with its closest allies is that there’s there’s a allies already problematic they difficult to deal with. It wouldn’t irritating, we always better to have them not to have

Jeremi Suri 10:24
right. So So if that’s true, which we’ve certainly argued throughout our podcast is, why is great britain itself rejecting its allies in Europe today? How do we understand Brexit?

Charlie Laderman 10:37
I didn’t go to as always had a unique relationship with Europe and an awkward relationship with you. And I think, ever since the 1970s, there has been a certain British reluctance among certain traits of the population to immerse itself in Nigeria, but ultimately, the decision was taken in the 1970s. But mainly for economic reasons. It was to the benefit of waiting to get closer to the European community. In the 1980s, as you start to move in a more political direction, as it starts to move towards what kind of European Union, there’s a growing suspicion in Britain, among large swathes of the population, and really from the Maastricht Treaty in 1992. onwards, and from the sort of birth of European Union, there’s been a divide in British politics over whether to get closer to you, as many of the political leaders wanted it to do. And then it’s when he was wanted to join the eurozone and to join the currency, the common currency we do now. And there’s also been a large swathes of the public’s, which has not wanted back to the political, the ultimate political destiny, do it closer to it. And that has been sort of a clash that we see that as dominated, which is politics for 30 years. paga they going back to those 7%, in the political union, and the question about Britain and the European Union, since the early 90s, has been one of the one of the major factors of which one is it and certainly the politics of the Conservative Party. George,

Jeremi Suri 12:15
why at this moment, why why as Why is Britain set itself up? In a way now that seems both at odds with Europe, at odds with its traditional role as an American ally? I mean, it’s, it’s hard to understand how the world of Theodore Roosevelt and David Lloyd George, and Woodrow Wilson and Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt has produced the world of Boris Johnson and Theresa May and Donald Trump. I think

Charlie Laderman 12:41
having to spend the whole afternoon in the, in the British National Archives looking at the document, there’s definitely the case, we tend to think that today is sort of a unique moment with British and American politicians don’t really understand each other, they clearly find each other’s ways to politics completely dissolved. So you end up with the same things going on in during the second technical war, the British look at the Americans as disorganized, and they seem to be in disarray. And the Americans look at the British as people who just don’t seem to know what’s good for them. What we see today’s I mean, there’s a number of unique, I mean, the British Prime Minister, Howard Miller summed it up probably best, where they said, What’s the sort of driving force in history events, they avoid events, and they’ve been a number of events that have occurred over the last 1015 years, which I think have shaped where Britain has gone wrong, I think that’s always been an under undergirding of a lot of a probably 30 to 40% of the which accommodates the never will be reconciled to the European Union, the thing was tipped it over the edge with a number of incidents that happened from the beginning of the 21st century. And one aspect of it is without doubt, the economic crisis, the crisis occurred in 2008. And another aspect of it is no doubt the Iraq war. And there’s other aspects of Tony Blair’s legacy, the decision to which which other European nations didn’t do was to sort of basically have unrestricted free media, people from the new nations from Eastern Europe, which the decision to do that has played into this politics as well. So it’s hard to sort of put your hand on one moment that led Britain down this path to bear with us today, and maybe the European Union. And but I think, as always, you have a series of things that lead to return to that man. And then, of course, David Cameron’s political gamble, which is what it was in 2016, which he lost, was to give British, the British public and in our boat, or whether to join you everywhere.

Jeremi Suri 14:52
The opinion is proving again, that events matter.

Charlie Laderman 14:57
Events matter, yes.

Zachary Suri 15:00
So how do you think that Brexit if it happens, or even even the aftermath of the referendum will affect American anglo relations?

Charlie Laderman 15:11
It’s a fantastic question. It’s, I think, one of the things that which which we’ve seen the question at the moment, is the dean actress and famous, he says in the, in the 1960s, that the Britain is as Lost Empire, and has still found a role. And I think, ultimately coming out the European Union, we’re going through a similar process where Britain has left is leaving the European Union, what is it seems to be this is sort of an interminable saga at the moment, but it looks like it’s going to leave the European Union. And then it needs to basically find its hole in the wall back to the VIP union. And one of the problems that Britain has is that both sides of what we’re known as the Atlantic bridge with Tony Blair, to the source of the heart of British policy, being a bridge between the United States and European Union on both sides that are starting to play, so whether it’s European Union, perhaps going into more federalist direction with a manual Mac one, Angela Merkel, and Britain isn’t going to be part of that, and isn’t quite sure which relationship with you want to leave, but also, Donald Trump’s America going in a very, very different direction. So the ultimately got the special relationship and look as a as a stable, a basis for control to the world to ultimately Britain’s going to have to decide over the next few years, what sort of role it’s going to take on and I don’t think the politicians or the British public have reconciled themselves that yet. But ultimately, the question maybe just put 212, or what in the world is this the sort of end of Britain wanting that sort of an outside influence in the world because it is a small, slightly rainy islands off of off of the sort of European continents. And, and there’s no inevitability about taking on that role. But I think as you, as you mentioned, Jeremy, over the last hundred years, which is how seen itself has been fundamentally about taking on that role of taking on a role in the world, and the British us relationship has rested on the underpinning a certain sort of international order. The question will be winning whether we continue

Jeremi Suri 17:13
right as it is, right. And I guess that brings us this, this really thoughtful historical overview brings us to the final question I think we need to ask, which is, where do we go from here, and particularly for our listeners, who might see value in Anglo American cooperation? How do we encourage that? Where do we go from here, assuming that whether it’s as a little England or big England, England is going to play an important role, the United Kingdom is going to be an important player? How do we think about the future of us British relations and what American citizens can do about it?

Charlie Laderman 17:49
Well, I think one of the things that there’s always been the case in the US UK relations over the last 3040 years, fundamental part of that relationship with go on beneath the surface that maybe we don’t necessarily see. So the intelligence relationship is fundamentally important. And the nuclear relationship is fundamentally important. And that will continue regardless, that is that is too important to both nations to let it go. And I do you think, Britain, we tend to have a bit of a soap opera about Is there a special relationship to the Americans still love us? Are we still the sort of number two to to United States, and I’m not sure if that’s always a particularly helpful way to, to think about our world in the world. I do think that ultimately, there is something which is which has kept us in the UK, close together. And even when there’s been political problems, there’s been ever since even since the Second World War, when it’s been the sort of the high point of that relationship. There was always problems even then there were problems within Churchill, Roosevelt, there were even problems between statue of David even though we see that as a golden era. And part two, because there is a sense of shared culture, shared values, I do think that those, those common values will injure as long as the public so the two countries commit themselves to them. So I think that is something where the public’s do have a lower in this, it’s not just the finish was so popular going on above us. If the two countries committed themselves to a certain shared culture and certain shared political values, then you’d hope that the political relations that have underpinned in order at the end of the 19th century will continue

Jeremi Suri 19:37
right, I think, Charlie, what do you what you’ve articulated so well, is that there are structural factors, there are elements of the two societies that strongly bring them together around support for democratization, concerns about the use of force, and by and maintenance of rule of law of law across a larger international sphere, and citizens understanding the importance of those dynamics, supporting those dynamics and supporting leaders, ultimately, it’ll recognize those dynamics that will be more important than the particular soap opera of any book. Exactly. Exactly. And I think you’ve given us a lot to think about here, Charlie, thank you very much.

Charlie Laderman 20:18
Thank you very much. I hope we can get you some fish and chips for your time.

Jeremi Suri 20:22
Well, that that’s part of our shared culture.

Zachary, thank you. What do you think, by the way, before we close that young people will be motivated to think about us British relations and productive ways?

Zachary Suri 20:34
Yes, I really do think that the United States and England even among our young population are very connected, even even if only by language, but I think it’s a really important connection that will continue for a long time.

Jeremi Suri 20:48
Well, and and i think nurturing these connections, rather than focusing on the personalities of the moment is really what historical wisdom can help us to understand and pursue so thank you for joining us on this episode of This is Democracy.

Charlie Laderman 21:09
This podcast is produced by the liberal lights development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison lumpy, and you can find his music at Harrison lemke.com.

Zachary Suri 21:23
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