This is Democracy – Episode 5: Sports and Democracy: How Can Sports Encourage Democracy?

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Introduction with many voices: This is Democracy- a podcast that explores the interracial, intergenerational, and intersectional unheard voices living in the world’s most influential democracy.
Jeremi: Welcome to our newest episode of This is Democracy. This week, we’re going to talk about sports and democracy, the role that athletics play in enhancing our democracy, the role that athletes play in our democracy. And we have none other than one of our great student athletes here in Austin, Texas, Natalie Suri. Natalie, welcome to our show.
Natalie: Thank you for having me.
Jeremi: Natalie is a high school student here in Austin, at McCallum High School, and she learned everything she knows about sports from her dad, obviously.
Natalie: Definitely.
Jeremi: Definitely, right? (laughs) Natalie, what sports do you play?
Natalie: Well, currently, I dance and play basketball, but I play so many sports, like I did soccer and volleyball for a while.
Jeremi: Wow. When did you first get interested in playing sports? Do you remember?
Natalie: I think it was mainly in third grade, when there was like a soccer team, and I just really enjoyed it. There was nothing like the feeling of just being– it was like a feeling of freedom for me, just playing on the field and everything.
Jeremi: What do you mean by a feeling of freedom?
Natalie: Like, you just forget about everything and focus on the ball or whatever. It just feels so good. When you score, there’s not feeling like it. You just feel good about yourself. And then… yeah.
Jeremi: I remember that feeling myself. It’s really– it helps you transcend some of the difficulties around you.
In high school, what is it like being a high school athlete today? We have all these images of high school athletes from movies and things like that, and of course, many of our listeners are high school athletes themselves or were high school athletes at another time. What does it feel like to be a high school athlete today?
Natalie: Well, I mean, I always kind of struggle with that question, because I can’t really imagine– like, it really helps me actually focus on my schoolwork, because I feel more disciplined, and I feel like if I just didn’t have other things to do, I’d just watch TV, like I wouldn’t do my work. It just gives me a lot of discipline. And I mean it’s hard. It’s definitely a commitment to be a good high school athlete, not that I’m good yet, but it’s definitely a commitment.
Jeremi: It’s a commitment and it disciplines you, right?
Natalie: Yes.
Jeremi: What about being a female student athlete?
Natalie: Well, again, I have never been a male student athlete (Jeremi laughs) so I don’t really know the difference, but I’ve been lucky. I haven’t experienced many– I haven’t felt very discriminated against. But there’s been times when, like, boys will come up to me and they’ll be like, “Girls basketball is easy,” but it’s kind of like, it’s not easy. That’s kind of an insensitive thing to say.
Jeremi: Do you find that being a female athlete today that you get the respect that you feel you deserve as a female athlete?
Natalie: I honestly don’t feel like I’m losing respect, but I just– the feeling that sports has given me, and how it’s changed me, I think it definitely gave me a sense of purpose and direction. The fact that people would try to take that away from girls is just– it just breaks my heart ’cause it really does help, and it really is just an important part of kids’ lives I think.
Jeremi: Well, one of the biggest changes in our society, of course, really with the early 1970s, in the last generation or so, is through Title IX and other legal changes, the enhancement of opportunities for women and girls as athletes. It’s hard to imagine a time when there weren’t as many opportunities for girls in athletics, right?
Natalie: Yes.
Jeremi: Do you find there’s also an issue in terms of race with athletics in high school? Because I know on your basketball team, the racial composition is different from the composition in your AP History course, for example. Right?
Natalie: Well, I mean, I think it’s kind of cool– I mean like, the school is like, all comes together. There’s not like the AP basketball team, so it’s like a different–
Jeremi: That would not be a very good basketball team, right? (laughs)
Natalie: Yeah, it would not. I can’t really quite say that I personally have experienced racial like problems, but I’ve definitely heard about them happening.
Jeremi: Like what?
Natalie: Just like, my coach, I feel like she… I mean, this might be my personal prejudice but she finds it more amazing when people who are not white work hard, which I guess makes sense, but it’s just kind of like… I feel like sometimes more is expected of… me, or I don’t know. It’s just complicated. I don’t really know to explain it.
Jeremi: You think there are different expectations for people from different racial backgrounds?
Natalie: Yeah, I think, like in basketball, primarily it’s like usually not dominated by white people so it’s like a prejudice that different people have, like people of color should be better, or something. But in like other sports I feel like white people , like in soccer, it was mostly white people, so I feel like– I just feel like it’s different across sports.
Jeremi: How do you deal with that though, ’cause I mean, you’re not actually white, but you’re not African American, either right? You’re a mix of Indian and Russian-Jewish, so how do you deal with different racial expectations. I remember that was a big deal when I was playing basketball in New York City.
Natalie: Well, I actually– I haven’t had– like I’ve been very fortunate. It’s not been like bad for me but I just try– I just play through it and I try not to think about it. Like, it shouldn’t matter.
Jeremi: Do sports, in addition to giving you opportunities and a sense of discipline and pride that you just spoke about, Natalie, do sports help you think about yourself as a citizen in our democracy?
Natalie: Well, it makes me feel like a lot more confident and… I feel like I’m part of something bigger, so yes, I think it does help me feel more like a US citizen.
Jeremi: Part of a larger community, right? It gives you a connection to that.
Well, one of the challenges athletes face today, as we watch the continuing controversy around Colin Kaepernick and the NFL, Serena Williams recently at the US Open, and many other athletes, is the question of what they belong to. What is this larger community, and what role they should play, sometimes speaking up about injustice, racial injustice, sexism, or sometimes not speaking up, and their different viewpoints on this. I thought for our conversation today, Natalie, we’d play a little clip.
Natalie: Oh, should I talk about that first?
Jeremi: Well… oh, sure, sure, go ahead.
Natalie: I just think people need to remember that kids, young athletes look up to these people. They like role models, so yeah, what they do really affects like the younger population, and I think it’s great how they’re showing how you can use sports as an outlet for political discussion– well, not really political discussion, but for standing up against things that are wrong.
Jeremi: So you think it’s a good thing when athletes take a stand?
NAtalie: I think it’s a good thing.
Jeremi: Well, that’s a perfect segue into the short audio clip I wanted to play for our listeners today and for us. It’s from one of the greatest athletes of the 20th century, and one of the most prominent African American athletes of the 20th century, Muhammad Ali, who passed away a few years ago. And this is from the late 1960s, when Muhammad Ali refused to serve in Vietnam. He refused to follow the draft order to go to Vietnam, and he spoke out not only against the war in Vietnam, but also against racism in American society. The clip is actually quite explicit on this, and doing this was incredibly controversial. Many citizens criticized Muhammad Ali, and for a time he lost the ability to box in the United States and lost his heavyweight championship. So let’s hear the incomparable Muhammad Ali.
(audio clip plays)
Ali: I’m saying you talking about me about some draft and all of you white boys are breaking your neck to get to Switzerland and Canada and London. I’m not going to help nobody get something my Negroes don’t have. If I’m gonna die, I’m gonna die right here, fightin’ you, if I’m gonna die. You my enemy. My enemies are white people, not Viet Congs or Chinese or Japanese. You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality. You won’t even stand up for me in America for my religious beliefs, and you want me to go somewhere and fight, but you won’t even stand up for me here at home.
(audio clip ends)
Natalie: I think it’s very powerful and…
Jeremi: Do you think Muhammad Ali is being too confrontational in the…?
Natalie: No, I think he’s just standing up for what he believes, and I think it’s a different time then, so we have to take that into account.
Jeremi: Sure.
Natalie: But yeah, so many people looked up to him and I think he really inspired other young people. Like without that I don’t know. I think that where we were today might be different.
Jeremi: He brought attention to a lot of the racism in American society at the time. So do you feel similarly about Colin Kaepernick and LeBron James, when LeBron James criticized the president of the United States for his… what LeBron James believes are racist immigration policies and other things. Do you agree with them? Do you think they’re using their position appropriately?
Natalie: Yes, I think they are, because they’re inspiring– because again, so many people look up to these athletes. Like young people playing basketball want to be like LeBron James, so the fact that he’s standing up for himself is going to make other people stand up for themselves. And it just… yeah, he is just really– I think it’s really great that they’re using sports as an outlet for change.
Jeremi: Do you and other young athletes, do you talk about this? Does this come up in your conversations?
Natalie: Honestly, no, not really.
Jeremi: (laughs) But you think everyone sees it, right?
Natalie: Yeah, I think to say that it’s not fair that people are sticking up for themselves is just… it’s like, it doesn’t make any sense. Like he just kneeled. He really didn’t do anything. I mean, he kneeled, it’s just like little things like that really make a huge difference, and I think that athletes should embrace that they can do that kind of thing.
Jeremi: What about teams, like when the Golden State Warriors, most of them, say they’re not going to go to the White House? What do you think about that?
Natalie: I mean I think that that’s… I haven’t actually thought about this a huge amount, but I think that that’s a great thing to do because they’re showing what they believe in again. I know I’m going in circles but yeah.
Jeremi: Do you think there’s a certain obligation that athletes have? Do you feel that they should use their stature?
Natalie: I feel like now that so many athletes have spoken up, other athletes feel like they have an obligation to as well speak up?
Jeremi: Do you feel that way as an athlete?
Natalie: Well, I mean, I’m not a famous athlete so–
Jeremi: Not yet! Not yet.
Natalie: Well… I don’t really feel, honestly, I don’t feel that different about it, but I feel like it’s more accepted and more– like, I think women’s sports, there’s more strong women, like more women are speaking up which wasn’t happening in the past which has really inspired me.
Jeremi: So do you think you have an obligation as a female athlete to speak up against sexism that you see in school or around school?
Natalie: I think that if I saw sexism I should speak up about it but I shouldn’t go looking for it. They’re different things.
Jeremi: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Do you believe, Natalie, that athletes in schools have a positive impact on the educational experience for all the other students who are not athletes?
Natalie: Well, the great thing about my school, I feel like everyone has things they do other than school. I don’t really know how much we impact other people who aren’t athletes but I think that it’s a good community and we encourage each other. It’s not like we have huge audiences at our games watching us.
Jeremi: Right, you do have a lot of parents there. (laughs) So I guess for us to bring this fascinating discussion full circle, where do you see yourself going as an athlete and as a citizen in our democracy? How do you think as you move forward, and as other teammates of yours and young ladies and boys playing sports, how do you think their continued athletic careers will intersect with the different things they’ll do as citizens in our democracy. How will it make them better citizens going forward?
Natalie: Well, that was quite a mouthful. (laughs) I don’t know if I’m going to– I mean I really enjoy the sports I play, but I don’t know if I want to play in the future, like in college, but how boys and girls will intersect?
Jeremi: No, how your activities as athletes going forward will intersect with your, what we hope and expect will be your role as citizens in our democracy?
Natalie: That in the future, like I see all these woman athletes. It’s kind of like, right now, the WNBA is not nearly as wide an audience as the NBA, but there’s some really good players in it now that are like… that are really lighting it up. So I think eventually we’ll have equal woman stars as we have men stars, and then they’ll be– I think that now the stage is kind of more men stars. I think soon that the stage is going to become at least equal if not maybe bigger in the woman direction, and I think that that’ll really help sexism in the United States, because people will see how women are capable of just the same things as men are.
Jeremi: Right, right. So you see a certain activism connected with athletics, an activism to eliminate sexism and eliminate racism?
Natalie: Well, more than sexism. It’s bigger than sexism.
Jeremi: What about inequality in terms of economic inequality, right? There are a lot of– there’s a lot of difference between rich and poor in our society.
Natalie: I’m kind of sheltered when it comes to that because I’m kind of higher end, but I think that’s another amazing thing about sports. To pick up a basketball, you don’t need to have a certain status. You don’t really need to pay for like private lessons to be good. You just need a ball and a hoops, so I think that’s another great thing about sports.
Jeremi: Do you expect to continue playing when you’re older? When you’re in college and beyond?
Natalie: I think I would like to do something with regards to like dance or sports, and I want to help– like if I have kids, I want to coach them. Like, I want them to play. I want– and just like encourage kids.
Jeremi: What about people who are not your kids? Do you see a public role to your athletic interests?
Natalie: I mean I’d like to coach and maybe, yeah, coach girls, young girls especially. And maybe try to make– ’cause for people who maybe can’t afford, aren’t as fortunate to pay for teams, I would make like maybe a charity, because I really believe sports really influence how… like, child development, because I don’t think I really cared about my schoolwork until I cared about sports, so I think that they kind of go hand in hand.
Jeremi: And I guess that’s my final question: do you care more about our democracy because of sports, or are these separate issues for you?
Natalie: Well, I don’t really think I’ve ever thought of sports and democracy as one thing until this podcast. But I definitely see how they relate now with how you feel connected and what you can do if you have a– like if you hold a big platform in sports.
Jeremi: Right, well this is great. This has been a very thoughtful discussion, Natalie, and as always, you bring both a very personal perspective but also a very thoughtful perspective connecting to those around you. One of the challenges we face in our society is that there’s so many things we’re doing that are important to our democracy but we don’t recognize that. We don’t talk about it that way, and we therefore don’t enhance the opportunities that are there by using sports to bring people in who have not been as fortunate and to get people to think about themselves in relationship to something larger. Sports is not just about winning and losing, it’s about being part of a community, or about being something bigger than yourself, as you said so well.
Thank you for joining us, Natalie.
Natalie: Thank you for having me.
Jeremi: This was another discussion in our series of discussions about the nature of our democracy and the ways in which our democracy is changing before our eyes. Thank you for joining us, and we’ll be back again next week for This is Democracy.
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Speaker 5: This podcast is produced by the Liberal Arts Development Studio and the College of Liberal Arts at University of Texas at Austin.
Speaker 6: The music in this episode is written and recorded by Harrison Lemke and you can find his music at harrisonlemke.com
Speaker 7: Subscribe and stay tuned for a new episode every Thursday featuring new perspectives on democracy.