This is Democracy – Episode 49: Guernica and the Bombing of Civilians

Jeremi Suri 0:02
Welcome to This is Democracy on the road

Zachary Suri 0:06
discussions and interactions across the world.

Jeremi Suri 0:09
This summer we’re going to take our discussions far away from Austin, Texas, as we meet with and talk to exciting people around the world.

Zachary Suri 0:25
Hello and welcome to this new episode of This is Democracy. Today we are in Guernica, Spain, a historic center of Basque culture and history to discuss the 1937 bombing of this city and its legacies. I’m Zachary Siri and I’m sitting here now with Professor Jeremy sorry.

Jeremi Suri 0:42
Good morning, Zachary, Siri.

Zachary Suri 0:44
And Natalie. Sorry. Good morning, everyone. Jeremy, what’s happening Garrick on April 26 1937. And what made that event So historically significant that we’ve attract out here to this day.

Jeremi Suri 0:58
So on that terrible day, April 26 1937, German and Italian aircraft in support of the fascist coup and the fascist regime of General Franco in Spain. Those aircraft dropped bombs on this wonderful city of Guernica, which had been a historical home for basket culture and society. This was a bombing intentionally targeted at civilians. The goal of General Franco and his regional Commander General Molo was to break the will and morale of Basque citizens who were resisting fascist efforts to steal power in Spain. And this is a really horrible day in history. Because more than 1000 citizens, innocent civilians of this town were killed. 85% of the buildings in this town were destroyed. And the fire is created by the answer India bombs burned for about three days. This was not the first time that bombs were used against civilians. But it was the first time that there was an organized military effort to kill civilians in Europe in this way, and it became the first of many civilian bombings that we would see thereafter. It was also a terrible day, because it was the beginnings of the end of Basque resistance and other forms of democratic resistance to fascism in Spain.

Zachary Suri 2:34
And why did the fascists see an opening a time that they could do this? And why do they see it as something they

Jeremi Suri 2:40
should do? The fascist believed that they could use military technology and that they could use the force of will this is at the core of fascist ideology, racial superiority and force of well, they could use their military power and force it will to destroy all resistance. And they also believe at this time, that there would be few repercussions. The Basque resistance forces did not have an Air Force of their own, the Spanish republican forces did not have a major force of their own. And so the fascist forces were taking advantage of the weakness and the lack of support for democratic forces.

Zachary Suri 3:17
But also, right fascist groups in Germany, under Hitler, and in Italy, under Mussolini saw this as a way to test the new style of war that they were developing like blitzkrieg,

Jeremi Suri 3:31
yes, yes. Many historians have written that this was a first step, a test case in blitzkrieg. Some have argued also that the Italian campaign in Ethiopia and other efforts by the fascist forces before this were also early steps. But you could argue this was the first time air power was used in a way that would become quite common during World War Two.

Zachary Suri 3:53
This really highlights the point we like to make off and on this is democracy. And that is that all the things that happened today happened because of historical reason. And they happen because something happened a long time ago, that created the climate in which this became acceptable.

Jeremi Suri 4:09
That’s right, their historical moments that resonate decades and decades after and the bombing of Guernica is one of those walking the streets as we did. One feels that the old world was destroyed and the new world was created here.

Zachary Suri 4:25
So how did the world the democratic free world that we’d like to think of in the 1920s How did the the democratic world learn about the body of work? And what was the reaction?

Jeremi Suri 4:36
So immediately after the bombing the fascist forces in Spain and Italy and in Germany denied that it ever happened, and they blamed the baskets for burning their own city, they claimed that the baskets that burn their own city and tried to blame the fascist spores and and within three days, fascist forces were occupying Guernica, and preventing any news from getting out. So we like to think fake news is something new today, propaganda today, this was being used at the time by fascist forces in 1937. people found out about the bombing, including Pablo Picasso, who will talk about soon, people found out about the bombing, particularly in France, because France is close to the border. And they found out about the bombing by word of mouth, people who witnessed it. People who knew people who lived in Baton in Guernica and the surrounding countryside, the news traveled by word of mouth, and this is an important lesson. propaganda is as old as anything. But the truth does went out, because people do get their news from word of mouth and others. And the story of this tragedy was so compelling, it became very hard to deny. It did take a while for people to learn about it.

Zachary Suri 5:50
And thanks also to the brave efforts of journalists in the area who happened to be covering the Spanish Civil War. And luckily, many of were able to get out to Canada soon after the bombing. And Natalie is going to read for us a passage from one of these journalists. This passage comes from an article published in the times that was written by journalist George Lothar steer who was a witness because he visited Garrity cut shortly after all the bombings. The raid on Guernica is unparalleled in military history. Guernica was not a military objective. The fact three producing more material lay outside the town and was untouched so or two barracks, some distance from the town. The town lay far between behind the lines, the object of the bombardment was seemingly the demoralization of the civil population and the destruction of the cradle of the Basque race. Every fact bears out this apprehension. So not only this is a very fascinating passage, a wonder that we still read these 85 years later, what you find so compelling about this passage, the first thing about this passage that stuck out to me was that it brought light the magnitude of the human losses, and how easy that was to lie about, as well as that and also shine light on the fact that Jericho wasn’t even a military base. So it seemed as though the attack, part of the main focus of the attack was just to hurt the people. And the fact that the Germans didn’t take into account the people that they were hurting is just really sad, because, yeah, lives matter. Yes. And I think that’s a really important point to make here. And that is that human life is often forgotten about when it comes to the military machinations of war. But that’s it is one of the most important factors during war. And that is what makes wars like World War Two, still part of our nation’s consciousness 75 years later.

Jeremi Suri 7:58
Absolutely. I mean, the lives lost resonate into the future and, and the stories they have to tell, walking the streets in Guernica, you see the buildings, you feel the ghosts, and then the wonderful museum they have here tells many of the stories of families and children. And I think what Natalie said is very powerful about how the individual stories, instructors many, many decades later,

Zachary Suri 8:22
and just the images of, of Nazi and Battalion, fighter planes coming down and machine guarding citizens who are trying to escape from the bombs is is something that has resonated with us and resonated with people like Pablo Picasso for generations. So how much specifically Jeremy did Picasso react to the Barbican character? And why was his reaction so important?

Jeremi Suri 8:48
So Picasso’s most famous painting, probably the most famous painting of the 20th century is a depiction of the bombing of Guernica. The painting is called Guernica. Picasso had already commissioned to paint something resonant with Spain. at the International Exposition that was going to occur in Paris at about the same time, he had begun a prior painting, but then on learning by word of mouth and through journalists, through accounts like the one Natalie read, learning of the bombing of Guernica, and this horrible fascist brutality in his home country, Picasso shifted gears and made this extraordinary painting this huge painting, depiction depicting the suffering of faces and bodies in the symbolism of this horrible, horrible attack. And this painting became an international sensation. Picasso said he made the painting not to tell people what to do, but to capture what happened and for people to see in it, what would resonate most with them. It’s a painting that is somewhat abstract. No, it’s clear, there’s suffering faces in it, it looks to me as if their bodies under rubble. But the painting is designed for each of us to see experience, feel and think about the suffering of war, and the brutality of aerial bombardment.

Zachary Suri 10:12
And I think this really, this really highlights the point we make very often here on this is democracy. And that is that stories, compelling stories about real humans and real people can destroy the ideas of fascism and evil and the lies of those who try and use death and killing for their own gain.

Jeremi Suri 10:35
Yes, the power of democracy as Picasso shows us. Now 80 years later, we’re talking about his painting, we remember him much more than we remember Francisco Franco. Picasso shows us the power of narrative and the power of the arts to reinforce democracy.

Zachary Suri 10:54
So how more militarily to the bombing of America influence how future wars were fought.

Jeremi Suri 11:01
So the bombing of Guernica unfortunately, as almost every military historian will write opens the door is a first step toward the more frequent use of air power against civilians in the 20th and 21st century. During World War Two, all the combatants do this fascist allied and others, you can think of the Nazi bombing of Coventry, the American bombing of Dresden and Tokyo, you can think of the atomic bombings in this context. And then thereafter, airpower becomes in some ways, the weapon of choice for large, powerful countries trying to exert control over faraway territories. United States and Soviet Union both use their power during the Cold War, but so do other countries like Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other countries of that sort. So this is the beginning of the targeting of civilians. And you could argue that the argument that the the action taken by the fascists in Grand It was the first step toward September 11 2001. The attackers and terrorists to attack the United States in 2001, made the same argument that the fascist made, which was that all civilians who were associated with the enemy were part of the enemy, and therefore fair game for attack. And that was the justification for and the use of military power to kill civilians in America, as it was the terrible justification given by Osama bin Laden for attacking the Twin Towers, and Washington DC in Pennsylvania, in 2001.

Zachary Suri 12:34
But also, if I’m correct, the bombing of great occur led us to the point where countries including and the United States were willing to use air power to drop bombs, and kill civilians far away in a way that seemed painless to to us, but created large amounts of suffering on the ground.

Jeremi Suri 12:58
Yes, as many historians have written, it is aerial bombardment becomes a terrible and a dangerous temptation. For countries like the United States, it’s a way of exerting power far away with a little cost to American civilians, and little risk to American soldiers. And we have to own this, even though our aims have often been very different from the names of fascist or terrorists, the United States has been a perpetrator of variable Bartman against civilians, throughout the last 80 years since Guernica, particularly in places like Vietnam and Iraq. And we need to own the consequences of that. People around the world often react to that in ways that reflect opposition and anger. And we need to recognize why Guernica is the first step toward the overuse, even by the United States of air power in the 20th and 21st century, and, and perhaps talking about this, and studying this will lead us to be a little more careful in the ways we use our power.

Zachary Suri 13:54
Certainly, and I think that this highlights how important it is for us to study history to study where our current military and political objectives come from, why are we still bombing civilians 85 years later. And I think that that’s really something that needs to be emphasized more and in our society that’s going through so much people, and that is that we need to study history, and we need to take from history lessons that will help us move forward into a better future. So speaking more to those lessons, Jeremy, what do you think the bombing of Canada and Picasso’s haunting painting, teach us about democracy?

Jeremi Suri 14:36
I think there are a lot of lessons that come from visiting Guernica reading about this history, and most importantly, observing Picasso’s painting, which I show students and people all the time I show it when I give lectures on leadership and storytelling and the importance of telling people a story, the lessons I would highlight or two first, I think airpower produces terrible suffering, but it does not produce the political outcomes we want. There’s a long line of historical scholarship going back to Michael Sherry, and many others on this Richard ovary, making the case that airpower kills a lot of people, but it only stiffens resistance, and it leads to more fighting, not less. We should not overuse air power, particularly in the United States. second lesson is that and this is the positive lesson that human stories went out over bombs. Here we are, at five years later talking about Greenacre. The stories of human beings and the stories of their experiences and the arguments they make for their humanity went out over the bombs in the long run. And Picasso proves that to us. His painting is one of the most seen and commented upon images of the 20th century, it has kept alive the story of humanity in the face of this horrible fascist brutality, democracy wins. Democracy thrives because human stories are more powerful than bombs and more powerful than lies.

Zachary Suri 16:08
Yes, and what Danica shows us is not only the evils that humans are capable of, but also the immense human cost of war, and the importance for all of us have sane, decent leadership. After all, to paraphrase Paul Simon, you cannot walk with the holy for only a halfway decent man. I don’t pretend to be a mastermind with no genius marketing plan. And that’s why this is democracy. This is This is Democracy signing off from Canada, audios and let’s get a Cosco that’s basket for Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 16:46
This podcast is produced by the liberal arts development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Music In this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke and you can find his music at Harrison Lemke dot com.

Unknown Speaker 17:00
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