This is Democracy – Episode 46: Ancient Government and its Legacies

Jeremi Suri 0:02
Welcome to This is Democracy on the road discussions and interactions across the world. This summer we’re going to take our discussions far away from Austin, Texas, as we meet with and talk to exciting people around the world.

So we have with us today, Professor Alessia Modi Ji from the University of Padma. She is an archaeologist and an expert on the ancient history of the Italian peninsula. And she has just walked with our family through the forum and the Colosseum and the Palatine Hill. Welcome Alesia. Welcome. Nice to have you here. Zachary Siri is with us here as well. And today, Natalie, Syria is here to say hello. So Allison Walter is here as well. So, today, we were walking through the forum in particular, and we were discussing Alessia, the relationship between the Senate and the Emperor. First tell us in ancient Rome, what was the role of the senate?

Alessia Morigi 1:21
Yes, Senate was the most ancient institution of the ancient Rome,

Ramallah and Ramo founded the cyanide

the tradition, say so that they decide for large assembly with mattress mattress and lighting is ancient people get the power with a number of about 100 senators. And the first time I bought the snake has become until 9am. Read during the time,

Jeremi Suri 2:03
so they began is 100 total than they had as many as 900. Yes. And the senators, what was the role of the senators? What was the senators job?

Alessia Morigi 2:10
They had the many roles, because usually, the first role was to make the law. Okay. And the second one was the administration of justice. The third one was their religious role. And the fourth one, was that military rule. Interesting while Yes, because the the equilibrium from these older was the guarantees for peace, and for a good life for for citizens and whether

Jeremi Suri 2:44
senators elected or how are they chosen?

Alessia Morigi 2:47
No. They were chosen from

an administration of people are sometimes from the Emperor’s and in the cycle, the life of them of the ancient history of Brahma. And sometimes, ancient families decided to send the most important representation in the summit. So we have different kinds of

nominate, nominate.

Jeremi Suri 3:22
Right, right. So they were generally not elected by the people as a whole. They were selected from certain groups. Yes.

Alessia Morigi 3:28
They were selected because they, they had a particular role in the society. Yes. Okay.

Jeremi Suri 3:36
So there was supposed to be elite men of wisdom. Yes. And they were always men.

Alessia Morigi 3:41
Oh, yes. Okay. All only manner because

they, they have a military role. Okay. Okay. Usually women’s at some political role. I mentioned Roma butter behind the scene in the backstage.

Zachary Suri 4:00
The question is, yeah, how did the role of the senate change?

Alessia Morigi 4:05
When the when the Romans transition from a republic to an empire? How did that change? Oh, yes. independence from that, and federal, because some, the relationship between senator and Empire also was a relationship of respect. In the first time, for example, our hostess, decides to say our to say yes, you to each senators. So he would say, hey, yes, using the name of their senator, and their relationship or was a piece relationship or with manner respectable way ancient Genesis, the ancient families of the senators. It was a strategic way to

power because of that, I was at power, but

Jeremi Suri 5:04
after so

Alessia Morigi 5:07
yeah, shedding power on that, and

they had a negotiation about power, one

Sunday to have a good

relationship with Empire upset. Usually, the power of the parents is a long life from when the battle is an absolute Kinga against the power of senators, usually as somehow some problem in Rome, because the Roman administration of state of the Roman government is Professor an equilibrium between powers, justice, making law and government.

Jeremi Suri 5:54
Right. So this is where the founding fathers in the United States get their ideas also balanced. How that’s how it is now

Zachary Suri 6:01
with that’s how it was.

That way today?

Alessia Morigi 6:07
Yes, usually.

That is a relationship, for example, between

the three power the

three levels of power in the Roman world, and our Italian constitution, because we think that you have to divide the different kind of powers. Yes. And you can put it all together, because it’s not good for citizens.

Jeremi Suri 6:38
Right. So the idea was that this is an idea that Americans adopted as well, an idea from ancient Rome, that no one person know should have too much power. That power has to be shared by different bodies by in the case of Rome, the Senate as well as the Emperor. Yes, correct. Yes. Yes. So the next question I want to ask after talking about the Senate, is, how do we understand the Emperor because in our histories of, we tend to focus on the Emperor’s more than anything else, we call it the period of Augustus, for example, right? What role did the Emperor have and what were the Emperor’s powers that were different from the Senate’s powers?

Alessia Morigi 7:12
Oh, quite a difference? Because usually, during the Emperor’s timer, the dynasty and the power

the senator at the last power,

they were representative assembly, yes. But

during the

Imperial times, we had a period the English The Emperor’s lose power, lost power, yes. And the cyanide became important. Yes, there is a chelation and isolation and isolation between the power and this is the reason because the tonight as a long life more longer that the impulse life, for example, the Senate, and after the end of the antiquity after registering an

Jeremi Suri 8:12
age, right, right, so the senate goes back earlier and last longer.

Alessia Morigi 8:15
Yes, yes, is the long life institution in the Roman world, injustice, interest, and then in perils of not, and in many ways, right, the Senate was the one who got to write the history books after the Emperor’s died. So they determined how many of the former Emperor’s like Nero

Zachary Suri 8:31
and Caligula were viewed by future generations.

Alessia Morigi 8:35
Yes. But Caligula and add a short power. Yeah, yes. Very short. That because usually, the relationship between people and snake in the Roman ager is so stronger, that it survives against the Emperor, or

Jeremi Suri 8:53
even with the strongest Emperor’s Oh, yes. Even with Augustus and with Constantine and others, the Senate was still very strong.

Alessia Morigi 9:00
Oh, yes. Costantino, and I was as well. Strategic in a relationship with the senator colleague, was not strategic. And and the needles was not

Jeremi Suri 9:13
right. And they did not last long did not last. Very interesting. So what we’re learning is that one of the essentials of Roman government was that the Senate had a long lasting role. Even if you had more powerful emperors, even if you were at war, played a crucial role change

Zachary Suri 9:30
played a crucial role. But democracy was always evolving and changing it never, it never stayed the same, you know, of course, the relationship would be different.

Alessia Morigi 9:39
Yes, yes. Because every institution changes his activity during the Roman war, you have the same name, but you are not the same rules, right? Okay. So you have to check every 10 years. So what is the the relation between the roles, because you can have the same? Because I have to show that there is an idea of immortality of the institution, but the roles can change.

Jeremi Suri 10:08
So so what what do we learn about today about government today from Rome? What are the what are the lessons? What are the lessons that we learn?

Alessia Morigi 10:18
I think that we can have

one only at one person and the power.

The Romani story is a story of relationship with the institution and the power divided. Yes, yes. So you can have social lifter between

different classes of people. But you have to divide the power first. Yes.

Jeremi Suri 10:51
And I want to just state the question again. So it’s clear the question I asked that unless you just answered was, what are the lessons from Roman government go for our governance and democracy today?

Alessia Morigi 11:03
And I think that the same one, democracy is a condition of nomination, a combination of

what you can do, you you

can disappear.

Jeremi Suri 11:24
Knowledge, the knowledge you have the knowledge you have,

Alessia Morigi 11:28
in spite of your social class. Yes, yes. And in the respect of the old community, you have to make a gift to your community with your knowledge, but you can get the power only with family or only with military power.

Jeremi Suri 11:51
Right. So it’s about sharing power and negotiation of power. Yes. And about what we would call checks and balances. Yes, make sure no one gets too powerful. Natalie, you had the final question, sweetie,

Unknown Speaker 12:04
no, I

Jeremi Suri 12:06
was answered. Okay. So I will ask the last question then. And this is for both Alessia and Zachary and for Natalie, as well, for all three of you. Do you think this history is relevant and inspiring for people today? Oh, yes, people? Can people use this history today?

Alessia Morigi 12:22
Yes. I think that is today is the most important subject of study today, because of the memory is a question of identity of collective identity and of social identity. And in Italy, actually, we are moving in this direction, because the best study of a story is taken out of schools. Yes. And in the new programs, the story of a short power.

Jeremi Suri 13:00
Yes, yes. People are more ignorant.

Alessia Morigi 13:02
Yes. And this is a big, big, big problem, because people down to the number them the reason?

Jeremi Suri 13:10
Yes. Yes. Yes. Zachary, do you find this history useful and inspiring for people of your generation? For us,

Unknown Speaker 13:19
I think, history and in a row and the history of Rome in particular helps us understand our societies today better, and how we can do good in our societies and the importance of activism. And I think that’s part of why we need to study these so much more. And I think I would agree with Professor marie-jeanne that it is very disheartening when we don’t see these subjects, and even this time period, in particular, taught in schools, as they used to be, as they should be.

Jeremi Suri 13:51
So Natalie, what what do you think, do you agree with Professor Morici and Zachary, that the history of Rome is relevant and instructive for young young people like yourself today?

Unknown Speaker 14:04
Yes, I like this trip has given me a new perspective on so far on how different governments work. And I think that in order to understand how our own government and how our own system works, is born to understand how the systems of other countries work. So instead of having just a class on like, a whole, like we spent a whole year just on Texas history, but that’s not very, I mean, that’s helpful, what you don’t need a whole year for it. So I think Instead, it would be more useful to spend the time learning about other governments and how other systems work so that we can understand like the positive and negatives of the system, because there still are a lot of negatives versus That’s

Jeremi Suri 14:41
great. That’s really, really inspiring. Well, thank you, Professor lesson, Marie T for being with us today. Thank you, Zachary. And thank you, Natalie. I think we’ve learned from this episode today, that visiting places like Rome, and walking the sites of ancient Republic’s particularly the Roman Republic, teaches us a lot about the wisdom of effective governance, and the ever evolving tasks, making our governments match the world we live in, but also balancing power from excessive concentration. And we can all learn to improve and build a new democracy from the history of this old democracy here. Thank you for joining us for this episode of This is Democracy. This is this series ultra family signing off.

Unknown Speaker 15:42
This podcast is produced by the liberal arts development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke and you can find his music at Harrison Lemke. com.

Unknown Speaker 15:56
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