This is Democracy – Episode 44: Citizens with Disabilities: Education and Access to Democracy

Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Democracy,

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a podcast that explores the

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interracial intergenerational and intersection of unheard voices living in the world’s most

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influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri 0:18
Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. Today, we’re going to discuss a topic that we haven’t spent much time on yet but deserves extensive attention, which is the way our democracy provides access education and opportunity to citizens with disabilities, citizens who come to our democracy, with advantages and disadvantages that other citizens don’t have. We have with us, our friend and wonderful scholar, Steve Chula. Steve, welcome. Thank you so much, and thanks so much for attention to this topic.

Stephen Ciullo 0:58
I think it aligns well with the The goal of the overall podcast is making sure everybody has a seat at the table. So I’m excited to talk about special education and the role in society.

Jeremi Suri 1:08
Thank you, Steve for over over many conversations over coffee, reminding me and educating me on how important these these issues are. And I’m so excited we can share this with our listeners. Steve Cerullo is an associate professor of special education at Texas State University. And before joining the faculty there, he taught special education himself in Binghamton, New York. So he’s been in the trenches, so to speak. He went on to earn his doctorate here at the University of Texas at Austin. And he teaches classes that focus on providing educators with effective strategies for teaching students and learning disabilities. He’s a principal investigator on a number of major research projects. So he works closely with teachers and he does research on the broader conceptual issues as well. Before we turn to our discussion with Steve, of course, we have our poem for Mr. Zachary Sir,

Zachary Suri 2:00
What’s the title of your poem today’s actually work to be done work to be done. Okay, let’s hear it. I can barely get up out of bed in the morning. Even with my two arms and two legs, two hands and two feet, I can hardly reach the bus stop in time to catch the bus. Even with my two eyes, two ears and 10 fingers. I can barely remember to cross the street at the right time, even though I can clearly see the traffic light and you can hear us beep clearly. So how many of my fellow citizens who I see getting on the bus chatting with my neighbors buying groceries at the supermarket, walking across the street, they manage all the things I can only seem to get right on the best of days without my privilege of having every limb flange and I without my fair health given by the random choice of chance. And sometimes I catch myself wanting to imagine what it would have been like to be poor, not quite as lucky, wanting to pay the life of a citizen with disabilities to look down and condescend. But how can I pity my neighbors with disabilities when I see them walk down the street as I do? chat with

bus driver in the same way? The same books that I can reduce my eyes, they can be with their hands? How can I look down with judgment when I can see them walking through the halls of my school? When I can see them in the same offices, the same careers I hope to one day hold? How could I pity them. And I know that there is work to be done a long list of necessities for a group long denied the basic necessities. But when I sat in history class and soft Sunshine of Amai morning, and listened to a presentation about the ADA and the civil rights movement for equality for my fellow students, and neighbors and teachers, I couldn’t help but think that I am making a difference just by learning and seeking to understand.

Jeremi Suri 3:38
It’s very thoughtful poem. Zachary, what is your poem about?

Zachary Suri 3:41
My phone was really about how much I said since disabilities contribute to our community, and are a part of it even more so than many people who don’t have disabilities. And I think it’s really hard for people, at least for myself to to see them as people who are incapable of doing what normal citizens do, just because of the fact that they already do that stuff. And they’re already able to fully take part in our democracy.

Jeremi Suri 4:10
Right. Right. So they’re already important actors, even though we often don’t think of it that way. Yeah, so Zachary’s problem seems like an appropriate place to turn to you, Steve, to your expertise and experience. One of the challenges, of course, is that people think of democracy as equal access for everyone. And as Zachary points out, people come to our democracy come to our institutions with different opportunities with different limitations. So how do we think about the challenges confronting citizens with disabilities when we when we talk about democracy?

Stephen Ciullo 4:45
Yeah, that’s a good question. And you know, when I think about that question, I think about a couple of different areas, there’s kind of the the school version of students who have disabilities and receive special ed services, then you think of long term health,

And then you think of in the middle, I always think of teachers. So it’s not going to be surprised anyone that achievement is lower for students who have special education services. The one yardstick is the National Assessment of Educational Progress. Usually, they find that pretty consistently, students who have special education services are below the 25th percentile of proficiency. So that so there’s a need there to improve that. And when you think of I like to think of the long term outcomes, because we do focus a lot on, you know, students, and you know,

students, and you know, the needs of students who were in elementary, middle school, but they’re going to be adults someday. And I think it’s important to also think about the challenges of making sure that everybody has the literacy levels and the knowledge to be engaged in society. You know, there are some, a lot of success stories, especially, but there’s also some grimmer statistics about, you know, higher involvement in the criminal justice system for people who were in special education, lower levels of adult literacy. So I think those are kind of two issues that are sort of competing. And, you know, it was interesting for me to talk to you too, because as a history person, I think that social studies, history and civics are the one place where we can all agree that maybe we can put some more effort in and making sure that people are learning, critical thinking and learning some of these kind of baseline things that will be necessary for when they’re adults to, to vote and participate in society.

Jeremi Suri 6:31
I was also thinking, Steve, as we’ve been talking over the years that those of us myself included, who teach American history, we very rarely discuss these issues. We talk about race, we talk about class, we talk about challenges immigrants face. But we almost never in a standard survey course, even at a high level at a university, really talk about the challenges of disability citizens with disabilities across our history. And it seems to me that there must be a lot of work on trying to incorporate these issues into the into the substantive syllabi that we use.

Stephen Ciullo 7:08
Yeah, there is. And I’m actually glad you brought that up. Because, you know, I think the the challenges are well documented, but in terms of how society has addressed those challenges in the past, you know, you mentioned some good things. I think one thing I like to think about when you know, you mentioned some of the legislation and stuff that’s happened in the past, and Zachary mentioned Americans with Disabilities Act, a lot of those movements in the past, were really parent driven, right, and teacher driven. And I think that’s what’s exciting is that, you know, if you think about some of the major groups like the council for Exceptional Children, the council for learning disabilities, and now, a very powerful group is Autism Speaks, that provides resources and advocacy for people with autism. These were parent driven things. And, you know, the other thing that’s encouraging to me is that specialized is kind of a bipartisan issue. If you really think about it, everybody agrees that we can do more to help people with disabilities. You know, the Americans with Disabilities Act, and really what provides the protections for students, if you think about school age population, it’s the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And, you know, just some basic things that a lot of people in the public might know is, those are legal protections. So you know, if you have a parent of a child who has a disability, you know that, you know, when they go to school, they’re going to have an Individualized Education Plan. It’s targeted for their level, you know, and a lot of the things that are built in, there are things that we probably shouldn’t take for granted, because they’re there as long as Congress as they right either,

Jeremi Suri 8:48
and many of them are relatively new. If we go back 50 years, these protections didn’t exist even 30 years. And in some cases, Steve, what in your research and experience Have you found are some of the most helpful things that have been done in the last 30 to 50 years through the American Disabilities Act and various other advances in teaching pedagogy to help to help citizens with with disabilities, particularly students?

Stephen Ciullo 9:13
Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, there have been some helpful things. One of the things that that I think maybe more people need to know about is students who are in college who have disabilities, a lot of people maybe don’t realize that every university has an Office of Disability Services. And I think that message needs to get out there. Because you know, if I’m in school, and I have a learning disability, or if I have dyslexia, I do have access to certain accommodations, when I get to college Sure, audio tapes, I can take my tests in a separate, separate location. So I think one of the things the Americans with Disabilities Act does is it provides access to students in college in the workforce. So it really extends and we work hard to get that message out. Because, you know, for different reasons, people, you know, I can’t put myself in those shoes. But there might be a hesitance to do that when you go to university. But I think those of us in education, teaching self determination, and teaching self advocacy is also really important. So you can access that. Another thing you asked about, which I’m really happy is, in terms of some of the advances, there’s some awesome groups out there that have really worked hard to disseminate research on best practices. Yes. One of the groups that’s done a terrific job is actually a government group, the Institute of Education Sciences, and they’ve just done a terrific job since 2001. With producing great research in providing access to that research to schools, as a very easy example, if if I’m a teacher working in a school, and we’re going to spend a lot of money on a new reading or math program, I want to know if it’s effective for my students, and particularly for students with with learning disabilities. You know, there’s a there’s a website called the What Works Clearinghouse where you could go there and type in what you’re looking at. And it’ll tell you the extent to which there’s, that’s based on evidence, because we really want to get these effective tools and teachers hands. I mean, if we were going to the doctor, we’d expect sure research base suggestions. And I think, continuing to infiltrate the spaces where where teachers look for effective things like that, you know, Pinterest and Google are great tools for finding things but but they’re not always the most reliable, because it’s hard to sift through all the information out there. So I think in higher ed, we can do a better job of, of sharing those practices with teachers.

Jeremi Suri 11:39
So it’s a great point. And it’s a great example of a larger theme we’ve discussed throughout the podcast, which is the importance of empirical research, and scholars like you are able to research these questions and really assess what works better than we probably ever have before. Zachary, you had a question?

Zachary Suri 11:58
Yes. I was wondering how much how, how do you think we can stop issues like this from taking a taking too much of a backseat to other issues? Because we’ve seen examples specifically, in Texas, in recent years of governments neglecting disability education, and putting it in and like neglectful even breaking federal law to save money. How do we prevent that from happening? Yeah,

Stephen Ciullo 12:25
yeah. And I’m glad you mentioned that, that that’s something that I hope listeners look more into is that some of the issues you’re alluding to that happened in Texas with some students being denied services, there’s there’s a great article in a reporter in Houston, you know, was helpful in breaking that story. But, yeah, that’s a good question about not taking a backseat. I mean, I think things like this are helpful. Number one is bringing specialized and bringing attention to people with disabilities into the public conversation. I think also celebrating some of the successes. Are you familiar with roses law by chance? So I mean, to me roses law was one of the important accomplishments that, that President Obama and Congress did together a bipartisan piece of legislation. And, you know, Rosa was a little girl, she’s a little girl with down syndrome. And her and her family worked hard. It was kind of citizen driven policy, to have the word retard taken out of federal language. So no longer do we say mental retardation, it’s it became federal law that we now say, intellectual disabilities, and that was a change that her and her family felt were very important. And I think it’s something that everybody came came together. So it’s little successes like that, that I think we need to celebrate more. You know, another thing I think, you know, we can think of also, as I mentioned, at the outset is, is the long term outcomes of people. And I think if we think of, you know, providing support earlier, and now, you know, there’ll be higher levels of adult literacy and, you know, more engagement in society, and maybe even people with disabilities, you know, running for office and getting more engaged. So I think providing the necessary early attention will be helpful. But I’m glad you are so interested in this to

Jeremi Suri 14:18
how do we balance the the desire to provide and the requirement to provide special accommodation, as you pointed out, with also the desire that I think many citizens with disabilities have, which is to be included? And to be seen as normal? In a sense, and, and, and not to be alienated? Yeah,

Stephen Ciullo 14:42
that’s, that’s a great question. And I think one of the things, one of the advantages we have now is technology, really is a great mechanism for doing that. There’s so many young, innovative people now who are coming up with fantastic things, even as we sit here. So I think the acknowledgement that not even just having a disability, but all of us kind of have our own ways of learning different, sure and accessing things different. And I think more understanding that we all have our own tools that we use. And I think that, like you said, you don’t want to be necessarily seen is different. But I think if we can all talk about, openly, you know, that we all do learn differently. And, you know, I may have dyslexia or learning disability, let’s say for an example. And I may learn better, you know, instead of, if I have some trouble reading words off the page, I may do better with the audio, audio to ensure. So I think understanding that, that you know, whether or not you have a disability, we all do learn differently. And I think sort of technology is really going to continue to play a big role. And how we have access to that another great example that maybe even students in college use is like speech to text technology, a lot of my students, if writing can be can be very laborious, if I have a learning disability that maybe slows me down with writing, even in the workforce, I can use speech to text and then go back and edit after So I think, you know, it’s always going to be something I don’t think it’s ever going to be perfect, you know, or, or are we ever going to find that balance. But I do think we’re moving in the right direction. And I think technology is helping that.

Jeremi Suri 16:24
It seems to me that one of the challenges, at least that I see day in and day out is while we’re trying to utilize technology to address the different learning styles. So much of how we evaluate people is becoming more and more standardized. If you think about standardized tests, right? If you think about the ways we read a transcript, the ways we evaluate and investigate people when hiring them for a job, we create very standardized method, because we also have the technology to do that. So so it does strike me and this is this is underpinning so many of the really interesting things you’ve said, we have to find a way to have a dialogue that is attentive as a democracy, to the differences people have, and what does that look like to you? How do you think about that? Because we do tend to talk about people in categories, right? voters, Democrats, Republicans, and part of what you’re saying is human beings don’t fit these categories? Yeah,

Stephen Ciullo 17:19
not always. So I want to make sure I understand your question. So it can you say it one more?

Jeremi Suri 17:23
Yes. So really, I mean, how do we how do we move into a world where we take advantage of the opportunities to evaluate people, but evaluate people in ways that are actually more attentive to these differences? I find, for example, a standardized test by its nature, it’s probably unfair to those who have a learning style that doesn’t fit well with filling in bubbles. Yeah, on a sheet. But, but of course, we use these we use these things more and more.

Stephen Ciullo 17:49
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think that, you know,

there are, the whole notion of differentiation can be helpful there, there’s a theory in education that Texas really is starting to embrace called Universal Design for Learning. And I don’t necessarily understand or know all the research in that, but but I do know, generally, what it says is that it kind of gets to your question about standardization. You know, some people may do better explaining content, or explaining report that they’ve done by speaking it acting it out, than they would with, you know, filling out a multiple choice test precisely. So I think, continuing to investigate ways where we can all share our talents in a way that’s not so standardized, that, you know, and, and like you said, I know, there’s times when standardization has a role there. You know, there are there are some maybe benefits to that. But But I think, you know, special ed has done a terrific job. And teachers in general have done a great job with differentiating their assignments, and realizing that, that the products are the things that students may turn in, or not not going to look the same for everyone. And they probably shouldn’t, because we do have individual needs and, and talents. A good example that always comes to my mind is a lot of people don’t realize this, but, you know, students with with learning disabilities, which which a lot of people don’t even understand because it’s kind of an invisible disability. Sometimes when we think of special ed, we think of wheelchairs and, and the more obvious physical disabilities but but we taught a, when I was teaching in Binghamton, New York, we had a couple, we had two students in particular, two boys that I was really enjoyed teaching a lot. Both had learning disabilities, and reading and dyslexia. But the teachers used to refer to them their math test as the key, you know, they’d say, you know, before we can correct all the other math quizzes or tests, we need to get the test the test that these two boys took, because we know they’re all going to be right. So I think realizing that, that people with disabilities have, you know, pretty incredible talents, just because you, you maybe need a little extra support in one area, I think highlighting and emphasize the talents and skills that they have in other areas, is really important.

Jeremi Suri 20:04
It’s almost as if the challenges that they face in one area have created super skill sets and others, right, a lot of cases and recognizing that and and and being attentive to that is really important. Zachary, you had another question? Well,

Zachary Suri 20:18
I was wondering what role you think, like education for, for students without disabilities plays in and creating awareness, because we do have things in school about like social emotional learning and, and hoping for others. But we don’t really see a lot of stuff about what the dislike, we learned about different movements for equality, but we don’t really talk about the movements for equality in the in the, in the disability community, we don’t talk about how we can work to make that to make citizens with disabilities feel as included as we try and make people of different races and different ideologies,

Stephen Ciullo 20:56
you just don’t see as much of a concerted effort for that. I think it needs to be included, you know, and I think and I’m glad that that Jeremy said that to about even including, you know, movements and landmarks in history of courses, of course, you know, because a lot of people in special education, have found that, that the Brown versus Board of Education, you know, ruling that had to do with with, you know, school segregation, and integration had a big impact on the disability move short. So I think, to get to your question, Zachary, I think it needs to be purposely integrated, because, you know, there’s probably a good deal of students in the general education population, who may be, you know, have have learning disabilities, or have even something like ADHD that maybe doesn’t require special education services. But I think really highlighting that these things exist, and that, in some ways, they’re normal. And they’re just something that we need to really talk about and promote, I think would be a big step forward. I do think we’re getting there. And maybe this is why I’d be interested in asking you, but if I think back to, to when I was in high school, and what special education was like, and maybe I’d love to hear what Jeremy says, too, but I knew that there was something special that I knew that students were pulled out. And they were there were certain students, they went to another classroom to learn, but we didn’t really know why. And we didn’t really know what they were doing exactly. Now, I know, there’s pros and cons to to the inclusion, inclusion movement that classrooms have where students with disabilities are taught alongside their general education peers. But one of the things it has done in a positive sense that I think a lot of parents would agree with, is it, it has broken down some of those barriers. So I think maybe that’s one thing that that, you know, people in your generation will, will have, you know, maybe are taking advantage of and in a positive way, you’ll have access to meeting many more people were when I was in school, you know, even like 2025 years ago, Special Ed was always a place now it’s considered more of a service than a place, if that makes sense.

Jeremi Suri 23:12
Certainly what when I was going to public schools in New York City, there’s no doubt that those with disabilities were stigmatized. It wasn’t just that it was seen as something different, it was seen as something lesser. And many of the words and phrases that you’ve referred to as words and phrases we’ve taken out of our common lexicon were used. And and I think we didn’t realize how hurtful that was, we didn’t realize how harmful our standard behaviors were. And certainly, Steve, you’ve educated us just in this conversation about the progress we’ve made, and at least acknowledging and beginning I don’t think we fully succeeded at all yet, but beginning to open our public dialogue, give a place to people who learn in different ways. We always like to close, as you know, with a discussion about positive discussion about how we can move forward how we continue to grow and improve our democracy. And I think that’s happening around us every day with the kind of work you do. What’s your advice to listeners, college students, younger students like Zachary, young professionals and others out there? What are some of the things they can take away from your research and your thinking and their daily lives to continue to make a positive difference and allowing our democracy to be more inclusive? For people with different abilities? Can I offer three, please?

Stephen Ciullo 24:40
Okay, well, the first thing is that I think that there is a tendency to not want to use the term special education and use disabilities. But for a lot of parents who really worked hard to provide equal rights and access to education, I think it’s important that that we don’t dilute that, or water down that language, because there is this fear in the special education community, that if we, you know, kind of minimize those terms, that those protections may go away with them. So I think making sure that all of us, you know, advocate for the rights of people with disabilities, is really important. The other thing that I think that’s really simple that I that I always mentioned to friends is always using person first language. And if you’ve never heard of that, what that means is that, you know, rather than saying, an autistic student, I would say, a student with autism, so that we’re always putting the person first. And sometimes on the news, and, you know, even in movies, sometimes you’ll hear, you know, you know, Mike is, you know, I, they’ll put the disability before the person and I think it’s important or my, that this is a person, and having a disability is just one aspect of their life.

Jeremi Suri 26:04
And we should say, you educated me on this, just in the days before our show, because I originally was, was using the terminology, even in the way we talked about the show, in the old way. And you’ve educated me just in recent days, and it’s definitely true, I can say, as someone who’s now started saying person with disability, rather than saying it the other way, it does it in the way you think about and imagine the person changes things, because you think of them as a person first, not as someone with a disability first, so, so thank you for that. Absolutely. Yeah, I can say that that’s already made a difference. Okay.

Stephen Ciullo 26:37
Wonderful. Yeah, yeah, these are small things. And, and actually, I said, three, but I’m going to add two more, please. The third thing is really continuing to, I hope all of us can, can raise our voices and continue to urge people at the state policymakers and the government to continue to invest in special education, and invest in special education research. You know, we know a lot now about a lot more about how students learn. And even just through the Institute of Education, sciences, and some of these things that are available to people, there’s a lot of great tools out there. But if the funding goes away, then you know, we won’t have those opportunities. I mean, the you know, people who are listening, if you’ve never heard of the website, as an easy example, understood, I’d encourage you to check it out. It’s the it was a website that was created for to help parents and teachers have a little bit of understanding what it’s like through a child’s eyes, who has a disabilities, and there’s simulations on there that I have my students do, where you’re solving math problems, and the time will shift and it goes really fast. There’s all sorts of distractors that pop up when they’re writing or solving problems. And it’s really just meant to give you a small taste of some of the challenges students have when there’s learning and on there, there’s great resources about you know what to do, if you go to an IEP meeting, just really good access and tools for parents. And the fourth thing is just, you know, on to close, really just continuing to spread the message through social media about really encouraging people to become good special education teachers. And I think ever, we’re going to hear more and more in the media about that soon. I don’t know if you’ve heard that President Obama and Michelle Obama are going to be doing a documentary series on Netflix. Yeah. And they announced that their first film is going to be about the disability movement. It’s going to be called clip camp. And it’s about kind of some of the foundations of the special education and the disability community. So I think things like that are going to continue to, to make a big difference. So I think continuing to share those positive messages about how far we’ve come is a good start.

Jeremi Suri 28:48
And being able to talk about this as a positive story is an opportunity for our democracy, not something we want to pretend doesn’t exist, which is certainly what it was like when when I was younger, I think, Zachary, does this sound good to you? Do you think that young people like yourself can be inspired to think about these issues and to even get involved, as Steve is discussing?

Zachary Suri 29:10
Yes, I definitely think this is an issue that that people can really get involved with helping and in dealing with. The one thing I do you see that I do see that it’s something that at least my generation has really improved upon, is our awareness about these issues. But I think that where it’s really lacking is more of the learning disability side, I think people are very much more aware of disabilities and things that comes from birth that many students around them have. But when it comes to learning disabilities, I think there’s still a big stigma around that. And just, I think it comes from the lack of interaction. And I think that that’s really important for us to discuss this issue. And I think that’s why like, our podcast today is really important. Because if students like myself can understand that there are people who struggle with this, and it’s not their fault, it’s something they have and something that they’re able to work with. I think that’s really important.

Stephen Ciullo 30:06
I’m really glad you said that actually, you know, in even just mentioning learning disabilities, because you’re right, physical disabilities, people understand, I think, have more of awareness of what that is. But learning disabilities are kind of like an individual in into invisible disability. It’s a it’s a cognitive difference. And I think increasing understanding of that is really important. So I’m glad you mentioned that. I mean, if you know, and I like to think about it, if someone needed glasses, we would, you know, they had poor eyesight, we’d give them an accommodation of maybe setting them closer to the front or giving them glasses, it’s the same thing with a learning disability, there are accommodations that that can really go a long way with helping improve their access to society and education. So thank you for mentioning that.

Jeremi Suri 30:51
I think today’s show has been so enlightening, because first of all, we reaffirm the dignity and the opportunity and the positive side of those who learn differently, and think differently. And of course, that’s essential to creativity in a democracy is not only helping those, but actually showcasing the different perspectives people can bring because of the different approaches that they take to the world. And I think the show is also reminded me as an educator and a citizen. That is important. We don’t assume that everyone learns the same way. We don’t assume that success looks the same for everyone. We have to be open to many routes to Rome. And in a way, that’s what makes democracy so wonderful that we all share values. But we also recognize the many different pathways, as Franklin Roosevelt said, our inspiration for the show, right? We’re constantly writing the new chapters of our democracy. Steve, thank you so much for your research and for sharing it with us today.

Stephen Ciullo 31:46
Thank you. And thanks again for the opportunity to talk about education. Again, I think it ties well with, you know, the whole topic of democracy. So it was a pleasure for me.

Jeremi Suri 31:56
Well, we hope to have you back on soon. And Zachary, thank you for your poem and your insights. Thank you for joining us on this is democracy.

Unknown Speaker 32:13
This podcast is produced by the liberal lights development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. The music in this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke and you can find his music at Harrison lemke.com.

Unknown Speaker 32:27
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai