This is Democracy – Episode 43: College Admissions and Diversity

Unknown Speaker 0:05
This is Democracy, a podcast that explores the interracial intergenerational and intersection of unheard voices living in the world’s most

Unknown Speaker 0:13
influential democracy.

Jeremi Suri 0:21
Welcome to our new episode of This is Democracy. Today’s episode focuses on a topic that is ever present in the news and even more so recently, college admissions, and the various questions surrounding college admissions in terms of access, inequality, cheating, and various other issues. Does our process allow for democratic access to higher education for citizens? And if it doesn’t? How can we improve our system of college admissions in the United States? We have with us today, really a remarkable guest, someone I’ve gotten to know in the last last few months. Her name is Renee Gadsden. She’s been a leader in higher education for nearly a decade. It’s amazing because she’s so young, but yet she’s been a leader for so long. She’s worked at admissions at three different private liberal arts colleges, directing and implementing recruitment initiatives and college access programming for students of color for first generation students and students from low income families. While she’s been doing all of that Renee recently completed a Master’s in Public Affairs at the LBJ School, and she was a leader around these exact issues at the LBJ School at the University of Texas, where she served as an executive board member of the public affairs Alliance for communities of color, and as an elected student, representative of the faculty diversity and inclusion committee. So Renee has been in the trenches so to speak, and questions of access and higher education. Renee, it’s great to have you here. Great. Thanks for having me. Our pleasure. We will start of course, with a scene setting poem for Mr. Zachary Siri as that What’s the title of your poem? knowledge, knowledge? Okay, let’s hear it.

Zachary Suri 2:04
I have known since the age of five, where I wanted to learn to learn for four years interviewing architecture, dedicated to the study of anxious and stars and modern literature, that they have changed with time the fuselage of Yale, Harvard, Stanford, have flown mellifluous at the years. And yet there was another who cannot imagine cannot even think of going ignores it with a strong belief that it is to impossible, though they know all that is possible in the realm of the human mind. know every fact every word in the dictionary, but not even the thought of college is allowed to occasionally pay a visit to their mind, kept away by the conventions of a broken system. And I’ve set foot on more campuses than could be listed. I’ve done the feeling of a cold lecture hall from my first breaths. I’ve done the feeling of the grass on so many historic Hill, I’ve known the people the words, the heart of so many places that most could only dream of the most delirious state of slumber. If there is someone who may live in my city, my school district may be the same air see the same stars, who has not even dreamt of touching that soil of 1000 scholars, and cannot even imagine sitting under the shadow of the halls of famous men, and sipping from the wealth of wisdom. And yet we are expected to write the same letters, the same essays, the same dedications to teenage die each day. They’re supposed to do it with it all with secondhand notebooks on library computers. Well, I can type my first drafts and clean Mac books under the watchful eye of a tutor, who knows the inner workings of a broken system.

Jeremi Suri 3:36
That creates, it seems your poem is about inequality. What is what is your, your main point here?

Zachary Suri 3:42
Well, my main point, the main point of my poem is how there’s how in one, in one area of our society, there’s a lot of privilege and wealth around college admissions. And people like myself, who have had such a have had the privilege of like, knowing what a college is like, and knowing what colleges and that they want to go to college for so long, while those who are not as privileged or not even given the opportunity to really think about themselves in a college setting. But yet, at the same time, they’re expected to do the same thing, and have the same skill level on paper as everyone else. And I think that that’s something that’s really unequal, because when you have people being judged based on things they can’t control,

Jeremi Suri 4:25
right. It’s as if some start out with so many advantages, and others don’t. Well, Renee, that seems like the appropriate place to turn to you. Why is it that our college admissions process and for that matter, even admissions processes for high schools and various things seem to be going in the wrong direction with less diversity rather than more diversity? What what are the challenges that we face?

Renee Gadsden 4:47
Sure. So I, so I don’t want to dismiss the fact that efforts have been made. And I think there is data that does show that there has been progress. But, you know, as I’m a firm believer that there’s always more work to be done. I mean, there’s a lot more work that can be done. So I’ll start there. I think that a lot of the challenges are beyond the walls of an institution as well, I think there, it’s what’s happening in the community. Zachary nicely talked about and again, those inequalities, privileges, that people have access to resources, let’s say, right, that I think happen outside of school. A lot of times in the K through 12. space, we talk a lot about, you know, how can we bring in the whole family, the whole community, when you’re thinking about food security, when you’re thinking about health, when you’re thinking about transportation, there’s a lot of different factors that do overlap that contribute, I think, to some of these, you know, disparities.

Jeremi Suri 5:54
And you talk about the efforts that have been made. And certainly they’ve been extraordinary. And you were working firsthand on this. But But why is it that they seem to fail to compensate for some of these structural issues? What are the things we’re missing?

Renee Gadsden 6:12
So in terms of like the college level, I, I still feel like testing is a huge challenge. There has been a lot of attempts, at least in since I’ve worked in admissions, to provide test prep for students, for black and brown communities for first generation communities and in low income communities. At least in the 10 years, I’ve worked in admissions, I have actually seen growth and test preparation, through community based organizations. So there has been growth in that area. But again, that is external outside of let’s say, your traditional public school, right. And the reason for that is in a traditional public school, your guidance counsellors main role is counseling, not necessarily college preparation. So they’re dealing a lot with more of that socio emotional in in the school as opposed to that college preparation. So oftentimes, the CEOs will come in either partner with schools or be a separate entity to provide exactly that this college access. How do you navigate that, you know, college trajectory, and that journey studios or College Board, office, college,

CBS or community based organizations,

Jeremi Suri 7:35
they come in to try to provide test prep and things of that sort to substitute for the support that a lot of students don’t get Otherwise,

Renee Gadsden 7:42
they can be internal or their external, they tend to be their own nonprofit. So 501 c three is often

Jeremi Suri 7:49
gotcha. Gotcha. And it is part of the problem that those coming out of disadvantaged communities don’t understand the process don’t know, for example, that there’s financial available, they’ve been studies showing that people under apply from certain communities for financial aid, is that is that still a major issue?

Renee Gadsden 8:07
I would say yes. And no, I’m sure there are definitely some families that maybe not do not necessarily know the whole process. But I think we are getting to a place where families do know, the process, especially with the common application, making it a lot easier. You know, it’s one application. So you apply everywhere, and again, with the growth of these community based organizations, it’s called college access organizations. I think the word is out there, libraries do a really good job of communicating that. So I think I think all communities now are becoming more of a college going culture, or at least aspiring to that or want to, but Zachary home, I think you said it best is that even though I, a student may want to do they have that same access to it, I think is really what where were switching the conversation? In terms of, and I think I missed the ball as the second part of your question. So

Jeremi Suri 9:03
I mean, what what are the things that are making it harder for people to learn about the information they need to have?

Renee Gadsden 9:10
Sure so and Yeah, well, I think they have the information, but the financial aid is what I definitely wanted to address. So with the financial aid, it’s a it’s the fastest convoluted form, right? It’s a

Jeremi Suri 9:23
standard form, everyone has to

Renee Gadsden 9:24
it is a standard form in order to get aid. And I’m happy you’re bringing this up. Because when we think about admissions, I think oftentimes, we just think about the application itself when we forget about the rest of the process, right? Because once you’re in you can get admitted, I don’t students are admitted, no matter their background, they are admitted. But affordability, or is a huge part of that process. And FAFSA is another component. And there’s been a lot of conversations about how do you make the FAFSA form easier. When you think about tax forms. Getting tax forms is hard when you are a teenager, and you’re responsible for filling out these forms by yourself. Right. And a lot of times, if you will, a big barrier to FAFSA is you have to have both guardians fill out information. But if you are a student, let’s say who does not have a relationship with one of your parents, and they have not been in your life at all. And you have not communicated with that. Right? How do you get that information? Right. But you have to get that information, really, or else you will not get your financial aid award. Right.

Jeremi Suri 10:33
So So in a sense, they seem they’re bureaucratic barriers, that that probably hinder certain communities more than more than others. Now, there’s there’s an ongoing debate about affirmative action, of course, first of all, as someone who has watched the process for 10 years or more, what what is your assessment of affirmative action? What works? Well, what doesn’t work? Well? How should we think about this? It’s obviously about ongoing court cases surrounding this as well.

Unknown Speaker 11:02
Yeah. So

Renee Gadsden 11:06
with affirmative action I, in the work that I’ve done,

we always have a holistic process. So I’ve never had to see personally, at least in the work that I’ve done, you know, the pros and cons of affirmative action, because all the schools I’ve ever worked for, were always a holistic process. So we looked at test scores, I would look at, you know, context of where a student is from. So I think, you know, that has always been at least in my career, on the forefront of making sure we’re looking at the whole student, right, to try our very best and making sure that we’re, you know, providing equitable access to higher education. I think in terms of studies that I have read, you know, it’s, there’s mixed outcomes, and there’s mixed feelings about whether for an affirmative action is doing what it is has intended to do. I think there are some studies that have shown, yes, it is working, but it depends on the competitive level of the institution. I think there’s also those that have say, No, it’s not working. But again, these are empirical studies and right, there will be different outcomes, depending on that. But

Jeremi Suri 12:30
But what do you say to the the student who applies from one background and has higher test scores, let’s say in higher grades, but then someone from a disadvantaged background? Who has lower test scores, lower grades is admitted? I mean, this happens quite often. And that’s that’s often where you get these claims of unfairness. Yeah, by those who have been denied a seat to someone who on paper, just on terms of scores might look like they’re less qualified. How about how do you? How do you think about that? How do you justify the holistic process in that context?

Renee Gadsden 13:04
Sure. So and that’s the whole, that’s why holistic review is so important, is because context is everything. And for instance, if a student has to your to your example, if you have a student from let’s say, a more affluent background that comes from more affluent community with more resources, who does have top scores? I mean, I have read applications from those from both communities. So I’ll have a student who was from a community affluent community who is on has that top scores, but so does everyone else in their community. Right? So does that is that really differentiating them and how they took advantage and lead in their community. And I think that is what you’re looking at in terms of the difference because a student that may have the lower, let’s say, essay t score, and maybe slightly lower GPA, but maybe they took all of the APS offered at their school, right? Maybe they were still taking the most challenging curriculum that they were that was afforded to them, as well as, you know, helping mom at home after school with the siblings and having some family responsibilities as well as you know, the athletics or the film or a job, right. You know, I think leadership looks different, depending on where your your background and your personal responsibilities.

Jeremi Suri 14:29
This is your point about context, it could be a student who has a slightly lower GPA, but has been working full time, while taking a whole slew of AP courses versus someone who has a higher GPA but hasn’t been working Exactly. Looks more impressive in that context. Right. Zachary, you had a question?

Zachary Suri 14:44
Yeah. I was wondering what like what students do, like, get on campus? What are what is being done to make students from disadvantaged backgrounds feel more welcome? on campus?

Renee Gadsden 14:54
That’s a really great question. So some schools will have specific, you know, well, first, they’ll have orientation, right. And a lot of colleges will do orientation and get students acclimated. A lot of the student organizations, a lot of affinity groups, so let’s say like multicultural suit organizations, or black student organizations, let’s say, we’ll come together and either you know, mentor, and kind of be a community within a community. I think the best colleges are the ones that have communities within communities, especially for, you know, our students of color are low income students and our first generation students. I have known college, some colleges even have offices, that works specifically with first generation students, right, and really tackle those intersection analogies of identity head on. And I think that’s super important. Because just because you are African American, let’s say doesn’t necessarily mean your first generation, right and share that, you know, same commonality. Other ways, is, some students will have preparation. So let’s say depending, and this doesn’t necessarily mean anything about your personal identity, but if there’s, you know, your your math maybe is not necessarily up to where it needs to be, then they’ll give you that extra, you know, accommodation, extra support in the air in your first year, right, because your first year is critical freshman year, making sure that you get acclimated socially, but as well as academically, and then also like mentorship, you know, making sure that students know where you’re safe places on campus that you can go to, to ask those questions, to learn how to navigate to learn how to, you know, approach your professors, because that’s scary, you know, and some students just don’t know, hey, how do I have a conversation with my professor how to how do I maximize this opportunity and build that relationship?

Jeremi Suri 16:49
So there’s so many things that that you’ve been a part of so many programs that are clearly making a difference and making an effort. And that’s, that’s a really positive story. But still, it’s hard as an educator not at times to feel like there’s still a huge gap. Two examples, of course, University of Texas right here, we’re in a state that will soon be majority minority. But you will know that on our campus, for example, and another example, my high school in New York City that we’ve talked about a few times on this podcast, I was in high school, recently admitted more than 700 students. This is that one of the magnet schools in New York to their new class, of which nine are African Americans. And this isn’t a city where African Americans and Latinos and Latinas are, I think, almost a majority, if not the majority of the public school system. So the gap still seem to be really large for in spite of all these efforts that you’ve described, so well, Renee, why is that? I, you know,

Unknown Speaker 17:48
I feel that

Renee Gadsden 17:53
we need to humanize some of these processes a little bit more.

I think, you know, we we have the data, I think, you know, looking at economics, looking at empirical evidence is, is great. But let’s not forget that students are humans too, right. And I think more can be done to make the process more personalized. I think the best schools, I’m sorry, I think the schools that do best at this work, are the ones who’d really take the time to recruit our, you know, multicultural students to recruit our first generation intentionally, and head on and purposely, purposefully, and with a lot of heart. And I think, you know, understanding that, as an admissions counselor, let’s say you, the counselor piece really needs to shine Yes, to build a relationship with families, and that is really key to really making the difference. And if that means, you know, your funding a family to visit your school, right, then, you know, trying to find that and to make it happen, you know, funding is a huge component. Sure. I think I’ve always said, you know, these, the students that we’re talking about today are the cream of the crop, when you’re thinking about a high achieving student, who is, you know, looking to make themselves better and do better for the world and be part of the community. These are the cream of the crop students, your institution is not the only institution that wants that student. So the way you’re recruiting an athlete should be the same way that you’re recruiting a student of color, a first generation student or low income student, the same efforts, and the same amount of funding should be put into that

Jeremi Suri 19:47
it sounds very much parallel what you’re, what you’re describing, of course, that takes an enormous amount of resources. Yes. And and Do you find that schools are willing to do that?

Renee Gadsden 19:58
I do feel that schools are willing to do that.

I do. But I feel that they are. Some may be reluctant, because at the end of the day, schools are Let’s be their businesses to of course, right. So we have to sustain. And I may be going to a different direction, but it is slightly, it is related. One thing that I have learned and has slightly bothered me a bit is how exactly this I have in my career. My early 20s. I had, you know, very influential and you know, whatever someone, you know, taught me, I’m like, okay, yes, this is this is the way right, you know, and the rhetoric that’s use you, you buy into it a little bit when you’re learning something. So it was you know, in order to recruit, you know, my students, and I say my students, because I was a multicultural recruitment coordinator, we have to also recruit full pays, because the full pays pay for the rhetoric was full pays pay for your low income students. Okay. So that’s embedded right in us, you we need the full pays. But now it’s it still is this. This Savior, white savior complex, almost. And I have a huge problem with that, because I feel like it takes dignity away from the community by saying that one community is paying for the other. Right? So in addition, there’s also this, we say, oh, when we are recruiting multicultural students, low income students are first generation students, you know, its diversity, we coin them, it’s adding diversity. If we do this, it’s adding value. So there’s a return on the investment for the community that already exists here. It’s never, it’s never rhetoric of the other way around. We only tell the story one way. Yes. In my opinion, it should be. We’re doing this because this community deserves it. Right. And we have a civic duty to do so. Right? And that should be the value add. Not that, hey, and it happens in corporate America as well. Sure, think about they talk about, oh, let’s do diversity and recruitment, teach diversity officers so that it proves that will get higher revenues, higher profits, right, instead of know, people just deserve these positions, because they’re equally as good, if not better.

Jeremi Suri 22:26
This is what you mean by humanizing the process. Right? People don’t want to be seen as the instruments to someone else’s agenda. They actually want to be seen as students as people who are cared about by the institution that cares to an invest in educating them. Yes. Right. And that’s that’s often not the way this is discussed, even by defenders of affirmative action, right?

Renee Gadsden 22:45
Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, I would say so.

Jeremi Suri 22:47
Exactly. You had a question.

Zachary Suri 22:51
I was wondering how the process is different? And how do you think the process for recruiting multicultural and first generation students should be when we’re talking to about like a bigger school like UT, which really can’t go out and recruit like individuals to can’t go out and recruit all the students as individuals, they have to have like a larger pool? How do you prevent the How do you prevent the privilege of others from hijacking the process and making it about making it about who has the best grades on paper and less about what the process should really be?

Jeremi Suri 23:28
When the numbers are so large?

Renee Gadsden 23:30
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, again, I would push back a little bit and say, a school like UT can absolutely do it. Right. They do it with their athletes. So why couldn’t they do it? Right, for a population that we need to serve? Right, and do right by? So I would push against that a little bit and say that it is absolutely possible. I think it is a power of building relationships and choosing, you know, again, the mission process starts with recruitment. Yeah. Where are you choosing to recruit? I have had colleagues not necessarily in the offices I’ve worked for, but when you travel, you know, you meet other admission counselors, and I have met people that say, I don’t go to that school, because there’s metal detectors. Well, now you are hindering an opportunity for a student to come to your institution because you refuse to go to certain schools because of, you know, the environment, let’s say, right. And I just don’t i don’t think that’s fair. And, you know, again, you’re limiting access. So I think, at you know, who are you spending, where are you spending your resources, even when you’re traveling, because that can still be done at a large scale, and it still is individualized, if I’m in an auditorium speaking with, with students, because you are visiting at least five schools a day, when you’re traveling at least five schools, either our visit, so you can, you can absolutely do it depending on how you’re allocating your your time, we will we would do as multicultural recruitment coordinators, as part of a community of North is, in terms of strategy, what we were trying to do is, if you’re, let’s say, multicultural population at your university was, you know, 15%, just throwing numbers out there, then you should aim the 15% of your travel every year should be targeted towards that demographic, whether it’s by, you know, school short, building relationships with community based organizations, 15% or more should be dedicated to that.

Jeremi Suri 25:37
And it seems to me, there’s an even deeper point you’re making, which is so important, which is that a school like UT should be involved in these communities beyond recruitment, right. One of the ways that universities recruit athletes is they build long term relationships with coaches, and with programs at the high school level, one could do that academically more than we do. most universities don’t spend a lot of time I’m investing and actually connecting their professors, and connecting the academic programming with a lot of communities that are non traditional. And so if professors if programs are in those communities more often than those communities are likely to feel more connected to the university more comfortable applying, and that makes the job of an admissions officer, it seems to me more more humane, right? Yes.

Renee Gadsden 26:21
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I’m not sure exactly what you know, UT does or doesn’t do, in terms of, you know, who they’re connected with, you know, but I imagine like things like project males, I mean, that is one way that I think you t does stay connected in, you know, in the community, right. And I think, you know, that’s, that’s brilliant, you know, being able to be a reference and a resource. Yes, not just an admissions counselor, not just a recruiter is extremely important, being able to get out in the community, and provide, you know, essay writing workshops, or you know, how to fill out the common application, or how to fill out any college application for that matter. And really walking families through what each each section is and how it is reviewed, and why it’s valuable for the process is extremely helpful. Because these are the kinds of things that an affluent community is getting, right. That maybe, you know, non affluent communities, you know, aren’t getting they’re not getting that same, that same insight. And if mom and dad or brother and sister didn’t go through the process, and maybe they did that was a long time ago, and maybe it wasn’t for like a full time, right, kind of higher education program, then it’s going to look a lot different.

Jeremi Suri 27:33
Sure. What’s your thought on admissions counselors, especially this is quite controversial now surrounding obviously some evidence that wealthy families have been using the admissions counselors to innocence bribe their way or cheat their way and what what is your experience with these private admissions consultants?

Renee Gadsden 27:52
So I have not had those. Within the news. Now I have I have not had, like, necessarily those sorts of things experienced. No, no, I’ve never been bribed. I haven’t had situations where, you know, we’ve been we’ve been bribed. I mean, we’ve definitely have parents and I haven’t dealt with like consultants really pushing that envelope too much. You know, parents definitely advocate for their kids. A lot. And it is going to be, you know, from the families who have been through this process many times before, where they’re calling on behalf of, you know, their child and that sort of thing, and maybe trying to push the envelope but not not as far as like a bribe.

Jeremi Suri 28:38
But it’s your job in admissions to push back right and not allow.

Renee Gadsden 28:41
It is it is I mean, you know, there’s I’ve had

you know, moms call and just say, definitely sewn a little, made some discriminatory comments. And yes, like I, you have to put your foot down as admission counselor, explain like, No, you know, this, this student, no matter their background belongs here, right, you know, belongs here. They deserve to be here. No one’s taking any one spot. That is not how this process works. Right.

Jeremi Suri 29:10
So I guess our last question for now, this has been a fascinating conversation, our last question sort of looking forward is, how can our listeners help this process to become more inclusive, while also playing the game as they have to mean? That’s the dilemma, right? So whether you’re a parent, or you’re a student, or wherever you are, you have to play the game. Yeah. Because you want the best access you can have and that’s, that’s the obligation you have to yourself. But while playing the game, how can we still encourage the process to become more inclusive and and highlight some of the positive elements that we clearly need more of? How can we make it more humane while we’re succeeding at it? Absolutely. So

Renee Gadsden 29:50
first and foremost, I mean, heart, I mean, first, this lead with heart, lead with passion, lead, lead with heart, right and in lead with love, I think that’s really the first and foremost, because this is a very stressful process. And I think if anything, it, when you leave, when you lead with love, it’s also it makes it a little bit easier to deal with maybe rejection, if you had, you know, because you can admit everyone, and not that it’s easy, but it’s just, you know, it’s from a good place, right. And there’s nothing necessarily malicious about these processes. At the end of the day, you know, to the parents and the guardians, and to students know, that. Colleges care, I know, the media is maybe posing some colleges, as, you know, the evil here. But they’re, they’re not always that way, it seems that way, sometimes, but they really have their hearts in the right place, taking the steps in the right direction, there are limits to what an institution can do, and how many students and institution can take in, but remembering that, you know, that’s important in order to provide the best opportunity, you know, sizes important, so you don’t have over enroll, because then it can impact your your experience. So lead with lead with hearts, I think for for counselors, I would recommend to really make that extra effort to go out there, and to go into the communities that maybe you’re not familiar familiar with, and learn more about it. Especially if it’s not a community, you know, that you’re from, talk with the counselors, talk with the families, eat at the local restaurants, you know, especially since the schools paying for your lunch that day, maybe, you know, just explore a little bit, walk around, because I think once you need to really immerse yourself in the community to understand and also be patient because it can take up to three to five years to build a relationship well with new school or a new community based organization or a new community. And then, you know, for the for the students, you know, continue to be you and, and share your story. You know, share your story and your application. When you’re meeting admissions counselors, when you’re on college campuses, share your story. If you feel feel like you’re standing out in a community, it’s because you are glowing. You know, and you belong there. And continue to ask questions. I think more students can ask more questions, think people are scared to ask questions. But as I mentioned, context, we like questions. Yes, we love questions. And there’s no such thing as a stupid question. So

Jeremi Suri 32:36
yeah, exactly. Zachary, is this is this helpful for you to think about the process as you see it, and also your your moral commitments that you laid out? So well, and your poem is helpful?

Zachary Suri 32:47
Um, yes, I really do think that there’s that for myself specifically, but also for for people by age that there is a lot of recognition around the college admissions process. And right, you guys think that it’s not fair necessarily, that it’s not a perfect system. But that also, we need to do our best to reform the system that we can’t just let it be. But at the same time, I do think that on the other hand, there’s a lot of ignorance among people about how it affects others, especially when it comes to people personally, people are large scale are happy to say that they’re all for a fair process, the system is broken. But when it comes to them individually not being admitted, then they’re very angry when an affirmative action policy keeps them out. But I think that’s something that we all need to recognize if we actually want to have a better system and

Jeremi Suri 33:40
understand the process as a whole and not just see it about one individual. There’s a set of humane commitments I think we have to have throughout this, Renee and Zachary, I think you you’ve given us so many insights here most important of all, I think, is recognizing the hard work that goes into making a process by its nature has to make choices, difficult choices, making this process as inclusive, and as humane as possible. And perhaps one of the lessons for today is that we tend to speak or focus too much on just outcomes, without understanding how we get to those outcomes without understanding without understanding more clearly, what it takes to actually build a process that brings more people in this is a long term commitment, one where a new generation will have to make some of its own difficult choices going forward. Thank you for your insights, Renee, thank you, Zachary. This has been another wonderful episode of This is Democracy.

Unknown Speaker 34:45
This podcast is produced by the liberal arts development studio and the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Music In this episode was written and recorded by Harrison Lemke Can you can find his music at Harrison lemke.com

Unknown Speaker 35:00
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai