E22 | Sam Gardner: Coaching within Paralympic & Olympic Sport

[0:00:01 Speaker 0] Welcome to the Team Behind the Team podcast.

[0:00:03 Speaker 1] I’m your host,

[0:00:04 Speaker 0] Don? T May. This is the monthly show focused on building conversations around the team based model approach to ethics, performance, strength and conditioning,

[0:00:12 Speaker 2] sports medicine, sports science, mental health and

[0:00:16 Speaker 0] wellness and sports nutrition. Hello and welcome back to the Team Behind the

[0:00:26 Speaker 2] Team podcast.

[0:00:27 Speaker 0] I’m your host, Don? T Maybe and man, oh

[0:00:30 Speaker 2] man,

[0:00:31 Speaker 0] it is summer in Austin texas and we have got a great, great special guest that I know you will, you will just love hearing from today, but before that, the most important person to me in the house that is our coast

[0:00:45 Speaker 2] like Hanson, like

[0:00:47 Speaker 0] what’s up baby?

[0:00:48 Speaker 2] How’s it going, Danny? How are you enjoying the summer?

[0:00:51 Speaker 0] You know, coach, I don’t want to jesus, but we we’ve kind of somewhat reopened back up here in Austin, so not fully, but it feels somewhat normal. I don’t know, that’s kind of my perspective. How are you feeling about it so far?

[0:01:05 Speaker 2] I’ve got a couple of places where it seems to be fully back open, but um obviously summer in Austin to most people is a pretty great place to be outside to me. I’m more of a before eight a.m. After eight PM guy, but

[0:01:21 Speaker 0] well, good stuff. Well, I know the summers it’s already getting hot in texas. Very,

[0:01:26 Speaker 2] that’s what I’m alluding to, is too hot. Right, Right.

[0:01:29 Speaker 0] And uh not not having a c in your car at five o’clock, driving home in Austin is not a good thing. So if that

[0:01:36 Speaker 2] happens, sure,

[0:01:38 Speaker 0] like coach and you want to do the special honors of introduce our guest today on the podcast would be great. Kick us off.

[0:01:44 Speaker 2] Absolutely. Um yeah, like you said, we’re really lucky to be joined today by Sam Gardner, senior strength and conditioning coach for us, paralympic sport at the olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Um I was an intern for SAM and had the privilege to learn from him um six years ago now, which is a little crazy to me, but he’s an incredible guy, a very sharp coach, um has gained a unique experience as a coach and I’ll let him speak more to that. So taking it from here, Sam, can you share with us your career path highlighting kind of how you got started in strength and conditioning and then leading all the way up to your current position now with Team USa.

[0:02:22 Speaker 1] Yeah, thank you both for having me. Always excited to china share the word about us paralympic sport and my God, I can’t believe it’s been six years, man that flew by pretty quick.

[0:02:32 Speaker 2] Yeah, I was I was thinking about that like a half hour ago and I was like dang, what

[0:02:35 Speaker 0] have I been doing for six years,

[0:02:37 Speaker 1] all the nice things you just said, you can, you know, the check will be in the mail and you can tell them how you really feel there. But uh, yeah, so I mean as far as my journey, hopefully it’s not too long winded because I’ve had the good fortune of learning for so many great people across the country. All stops ipad. Uh, I grew up playing basketball and you know, didn’t make it too far into elite sport. We got to play small time hoops that are D3 school in Massachusetts and I always love training in the off season. I also had a lot of knee injuries that wound up finding myself spending more time in the gym than on the court, which wasn’t the best for my game, but kind of hooked me for my career. I started off as a physical physical education major, which as I look back and reflect on, I’m really grateful for that. Professors creating the weekly on various disciplines of pedagogy such as session design, layout, communication flow, kiwi lesson planning process kind of then shifted into more of a movement science focus. But along the way I had some experiences that I look back on that really helped me work in paris for, which was some unique experiences like teaching swing dance to enough for school elementary program of students with autism. Um, one of my first adapted sessions, I had to teach a young girl, junior high student who was visually impaired, that severe autism, how to play ultimate frisbee. So those, those experiences were pretty unique to me. Kind of really opened my eyes to coaching as a whole. I realized I wanted to work in sport and that’s where my true passion was. So eventually when I finished on the grad with a degree movement sciences was fortunate to have a Professor Hickman or a wing allow me to work at her facility. And I was hooked, hook line and sinker From their volunteer, the velocity sports performance. Um those are pretty popular times would have been 2008. Um two weeks later actually got hired on as a full time sport performance coach about a month after that they didn’t know any better and they named the head sport performance coach and two months later I was actually the high performance director of the whole facility. Luckily I knew enough to know what I didn’t know and that I was extremely underprepared and under qualified to be running my own facility forever and had a thirst for knowledge, want to learn more. So I was able to start a master’s program at Virginia State University, which at the time was one of the first programs in the country with a specific focus in the master’s program on strengthen auditioning for sport. Uh, there was kind of mentor by Dr Ellen Robinson was able to join our weightlifting club and at 66 the only award everyone was probably tallest competitor. Um, but I was able to be a g a T A and work in the sport performance facility in the evenings, where I also volunteered as a strength conditioning intern coach part time at Harvard University. So I was kind of juggling fighter for jobs to my master’s program. Luckily I was able to accept an intern role at the Colorado Springs Olympic Training Center in the spring of 2010. So it’s the first time I really left massachusetts packed up the car and head on out to Colorado Springs. I was lucky to uh, at the end of that internship, I was lucky to transition out chula vista, which mike was referencing earlier. So I got to work at both Olympic training centers as an intern all the way until Christmas break in 2010. Uh, even luckier as the U. S. S. C couldn’t really get rid of me. You know, they brought me back and newly created fellowship role in january 2011, which was supposed to be a one year contract. It’s kind of like a bad virus that couldn’t get rid of me and I was able to stay on through the London olympics apologize for that. Um, so after the one of the olympics, you know, it had back and forth with Dzhokhar White and Golden State Warriors during the lockout year and he was really trying to put together what was going to be one of the first high performance programs, professional sport in the U. S. Um So that was obviously basketball being my passion. Um you know that was something I was very interested in and after the London olympics I transitioned out to the Bay Area, I was able to take on a lead role of athletic performance in santa Cruz Warriors of the D League, which is now kind of the model every team has. But we were on a few affiliates had our own soul affiliate within commuting distance. I was able to shoot back and forth between the pro club and the D League club at the time and be able to work as like a third assistant or third coach with the NBA club kind of take lead with the D. League clubs. It was a great learning opportunity for me. Unfortunately at the end of the year there was a lot of staff turnover. Um I was being recruited by the U. S. Special Forces and at the time I thought that that was going to be the best place for me to kind of settle some deep roots and grow as a coach. So in 2013 I moved down to San Diego, took on the role of the Marine Special Operations Command 1st. Memsaab Camp. Pendleton was having an absolute blast took me a while to figure out what I was doing. It was so unique to any role it had before it wasn’t sport anymore. It was no longer a game, it was more of a more of a situation where we’re trying to help elite soldiers go over to battle and come back to their families. So it’s a little more serious to me than just sport. Um, but unfortunately 2014, a lot of the contractors across the country got the names called and chopped and uh, the government contract I was on was actually funded for the past year. So Not the best situation. Great lesson in humility and patience as always. Let go from my contract. In 2014, Jamie, who we both know and work with Alan chula uh called me up, said if I was interested, I could could volunteer at the chula vista olympic Training Center where I worked a few years earlier. So I took that up as soon as I could, I was helping out with the athletics program down there, both on the olympic side and turn olympic side as I was interviewing for, for what was going to be next. Um, had some opportunities to get back in basketball on the collegiate setting. Was also offered my job back with Marzook but I was just having such a great time working with the paralympic athletes down there, chula and lo and behold the USOC. Um 2014 decided to offer me a new role. They create a new position for me with the direct focus on U. S. Paralympic sport. So at the time I was one of the first three members of our new initiative to create high performance program and supported us paralympians with the same level of care as we do our olympians at least that was the goal. Um I worked in Chula vista through the Rio Games and then in 2018 I was brought back to Colorado Springs to continue to grow our us Paralympics conditioning department. So now I’m fortunate to have some some great coaches doing some exciting work in the para space as well as a full time inter disciplinary staff that continues to basically multiply. Um so we have full time dieticians, sports psychologist, sport physiologist as well as leads different various areas of sports medicine. Um and I have to stop Osario, who backfilled my role in chula, who works with paralympic track field and quad tennis. We have Jared Sigman here in Colorado Springs as an assistant for the conditioning coach in Tyler Courtney, a former intern of yours as a fellow strength conditioning coach here, and Katie Mccloskey, who does a great job working with our women’s, men’s and women’s wheelchair basketball programs. So, you know, it grew from just me working with paralympic athletes, Alan chula to 2019, our last full competitive year before the pandemic, our group was providing regular snc support About an average of 210 hours of hands on coaching for a week to 110 national team athletes in 10 different sports. Uh those athletes went on to earn 106 international medals in 2019 between Lehman World Championships. So it’s been so exciting to see the growth and hopefully have had a small part of that along the way. So that takes me to where I’m at now back in colorado Springs, um still coaching but have a little bit more of a manager had as well and kind of took off some new challenges and educational area and do some guest lecturing as well at the University of texas, University of Technology of Sydney’s High performance sport Masters degree.

[0:10:26 Speaker 2] That’s awesome. Um, I picked up on a little theme there throughout your path. Um some of which which um, I was unaware of, but like when you’re with velocity, sport performance and even now at the olympic training center, how you kind of just stuck with, it kept finding places where you could add value and it kind of turned into um a progressive or, or even a role that they? Ve been created for you. So that’s awesome. I’m sure that speaks to kind of the work you’ve done with those groups

[0:10:52 Speaker 1] and I’d like to tip my hat to the great people I got to work with because they were the ones hopefully advocating for me or creating the rule for me to try to keep doing what I was trying to do. So without the good people I met along the way, none of that would have happened on my own. That’s for sure.

[0:11:09 Speaker 2] Yeah. And then, so we’ve said it a couple of times that you were pretty exclusively right now with us paralympic sport. Um What, what specific groups in the paralympics? Um Do you work with like which sports, what type of athletes?

[0:11:23 Speaker 1] Yeah. No it’s it’s varied over the years which is really fun for me everywhere I go. You know you kind of get this label where I did a lot of work in track and field, it’s like oh your father development coach or worked in the N. B. A. It’s uh you’re a basketball guy. Now I work in paralympics, you’re you’re a para guy, right? So it’s interesting but currently I directly support athletes who compete in road cycling, track cycling, triathlon, swimming track, nordic, ski and biathlon. And I still work with some olympic athletes as well, specifically in triathlon. Um But in the 10 summer seasons that I’ve been fortunate to support team USa uh I’ve worked with over 20 sports in one way or another and currently the collective staff that I helped coordinate now, which to me is so, so awesome. So it’s not just trying to be a score, first, do it on your own one man show anymore to be kind of a past first point guard. At some points we support para track and field, a small court heart of quad tennis athletes in chula. We have resident programs in colorado Springs of parachute, parachuting paris, win, para cycling, para triathlon. And we have other sports that use the training center for their selection camps. There might be decentralized, but they come to town for extended camps to select their team or do physical testing or to get some training blocks in such as wheelchair basketball, a pair of snowboard, alpine ski. Um, and then on top of that colorado Springs also becomes a bit of a centralized hub for a medical team. So part of my role as I get to work with athletes in various sports. Either on pre or post operational work and return to performance protocols.

[0:12:59 Speaker 2] That’s awesome. I thought I thought that I had worked with just like a huge variety of sports compared to most. And then you start listing all these things off, just takes it to a whole new level. Um but even, yeah, talking about all of those paris sports for our audience, who’s unfamiliar what qualifies an athlete as a pair of athlete?

[0:13:18 Speaker 1] Yeah, you know, so para athletes in the simplest terms, uh these are athletes who have a physical impairment or intellectual impairment. Paralympians would be like would be athletes, excuse me with disability who have competed at one of the world’s largest stages. So like an Olympian competes at the olympics. Apparently being would be somebody who went off to the paralympics competed um at the paralympic games, the main categories of impairments that get broken down into classifications per sport, Arlen deficiency, short stature, visual impairment, impaired muscle power or passive range of motion, hyper Tony, a taxi or apoptosis, which is unhelpful, um an intellectual impairment. So athletes would have one of those kind of broad spectrum, six areas of impairment that would then get sub classified based on their ability within their sport.

[0:14:16 Speaker 2] Gotcha, could you speak to um some of those different classification. So, I know like you work with amputee athletes, I know you work like you said, visually impaired athletes, um different athletes who have spastic paraplegia. What are the different classifications? Because I remember working with some of our visually impaired track athletes down in chula vista, but that there are different levels of visual impairment. So, could you speak to some of the different classifications there?

[0:14:42 Speaker 1] Yeah, it’s a great question. It’s an area that I’ve been involved in Olympic Paralympic sport, like I said for 10 different summer seasons, when you add them up and it’s it’s very great. It’s not always black and white and I don’t envy classifiers jobs, it’s pretty difficult, but the idea of classifications um you know, it’s to have paralympic athletes that are placed in categories for competition based on their severity of their impairment. Yeah, it’s not much different from the olympic side where you might have athletes group by age, by gender or by weight class. You know, the whole purpose of classification is to minimize the impact of impairment on sport performance, to try to create a level playing field and the classification ideally is there to help keep a safe training environment. So you probably wouldn’t want to see a bunch of visually impaired athletes running hurdles for example. Right, so um you have to keep that in mind as well. It’s not just about leveling the playing field, but it’s also about the safety of the athletes too. So within each sport there’s different ways of the classification system breaks down and that can get pretty complex, but I think where you need to start just to have a basic understanding of what classification is and why, why it’s there? And again, it’s just a surfer athlete safety a level playing field into match athletes against other athletes who should have similar um impairment profiles so that it’s a level playing field,

[0:16:10 Speaker 2] awesome, awesome.

[0:16:11 Speaker 0] Like I want to jump in a questionnaire to kind of build on you so real quick sam just to add to what mike has kind of been asking, like, what would you say the major similarities between coaching, olympic athletes and olympic athletes are? What would you say? Some similarity?

[0:16:30 Speaker 1] Yeah, I mean, it’s at the end of the day, you’re working with people and hopefully if you’re being holistic, you’re you’re putting the person first, the athlete first. Um you know, so if I work with an olympic athlete, a paralympic athlete, they’re probably more similarities and there are differences, if I’m being honest. But areas that I think it’s helped helped me personally. Um you know, it really challenges your creativity, your adaptability. You’re planning, you know, in one session you may have athletes training together as a group for the same sport, but you might have to athletes who have visual impairment, one who has, let’s say above the knee, unilateral amputation, maybe one has bilateral below the knee amputation, Maybe two. Or in wheelchairs, one athlete in the wheelchair might have complete torso control when without. So, you know, how do you coordinate that? How do you plan that? How do you execute that? Right. Um Your communication and teaching. Let’s take visual impairment or intellectual impairment. Those are two great examples, you know, how do you queue or teach an athlete who’s never seen something to do a new skill or complex task? How do you teach somebody with an intellectual impairment? How do you teach them a new complex task? Right. Um you know, so it can be unique in some ways to Olympic programs. Um I also work with athletes as young as 14 and as old as 50, so you have that to consider as well. Um And then, you know, I think all the qualities that the paralympic athletes have forced me and challenged me to grow in. I’m biased, but I personally feel that they would transfer to any other area that I would go on and coach in the future. Um So I just think it’s such a, an awesome area for a coach to kind of um learn some lessons in sharpen their acts.

[0:18:11 Speaker 0] What I’m curious, do they enjoy coming in the weight room or not? Really?

[0:18:15 Speaker 1] It’s all over the map coach as you can imagine. I guess if I can flip that on you guys, I’d imagine maybe there’s some athletes or some sports who historically the culture might be super strong as far as coming into the weight room per se, unfortunate where I used to be. Again, all these kind of labels, strength and power. A guy, you know, I worked in athletics, I worked the shot put and jumps and I worked a short sprints and I worked at bobsled and skeleton and now I work with, you know, triathlon and distance swimmers and I work with new york ski and biathlon. Um but it was kind of crazy because for me that was a big transition. I’m thinking all these athletes are going to want to train, they’re not gonna want to come in and get strong and you know, there might be some some cultural demands or backgrounds from the sports that kind of skew them away from strength and power training, but I’ve had the exact opposite experience with some of these endurance athletes are now little mini meat heads to the point where one of our post season reviews the The tri athletes, they went 10 days without working in the weight room with me before their biggest competition before COVID hit. And in their reflection that was that was the area. They said that they can’t go 10 days without touching, you know? Which is interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, in the north skiing biathlon, it really started. We have one of their top athletes, you know, one of the greatest athletes we’ve ever had in paris for um come to town, she came for surgery and you know, they thought well it’ll be a miracle she can get off to the season next winner. And I got to work through through the summer and spring and luckily our sports medicine Amber Donaldson care provider. She she’s an absolute boss and made sure that that particular effort came out to Colorado Springs would be worked with her and she went off and won more medals than anyone had in U. S. History. So now nordic ski and biathlon thought so we got this magic to shoot, we have to have everybody do it. So everybody had to come come train with SAm and it was the same with para try you know, I worked with the athletes out and leading up to Rio and they identify great athletes to come out to the national team camp. I’m not trying to take any of the credit, but all the athletes I worked with happening to the athletes who went on to meddle. So then they thought I had some magic juju as well. So, you know, it’s just kind of spiraled from, from one athletes success to the whole program committing to it.

[0:20:28 Speaker 0] Um yeah, so you kind of hit a nerve right there with me. So a good friend of mine um worked at a military base. He didn’t work with paralympic athletes. We worked with uh wounded or impaired soldiers. And I remember him talking about like, so you were talking about this magic juju. Well, part of you gotta think part of what you do, that’s a huge impact is like this belief itself and confidence and visualization that has to transform their life with this limitation. They have this impairment, right,

[0:21:04 Speaker 1] right.

[0:21:05 Speaker 0] You see, do you see any differences in like drive and motivation for like a normal like olympic athlete in a paralympic? Is there any is there any differences are similar? What are you seeing over the years?

[0:21:19 Speaker 1] Yeah. You know, I think everywhere I go, I I try to pride myself in developing trusting relationships with athletes and sport coaches and hopefully the support staff as well. Um, but I think, you know, social forces with such a unique place because it took a while for me to get those stressing relationships probably longer than it took me anywhere in sports. If I’m being candid, um you know, if I could go back, there are things I would do differently, but once you have that, buying that trust, those operators man, they would do anything. They would do absolutely anything. Um and I feel the same way about some of the para athletes I work with, uh you know, if you’re literally guiding an athlete through a weight room through a session who can’t see anything and you’re literally holding them and putting them in the positions and guiding their elbow. Uh it’s a connection that you might not have with an able bodied athlete. And it’s the same when I’m getting an athlete in and out of their wheelchair, I’m helping them with share transfers on and off equipment or getting them into positions. They can’t get into on their own, ideally. I try to make the athletes as independent as possible and coach myself out of a job, but sometimes depending on the impairment, you have to be a lot more hands on than you would be with everybody athlete. And they’re putting a lot of trust in you when they allow you to do those things. Um and you know, I think Harris Ford, there’s a unique interplay within training age, biological age, but now you have to also consider the impairment age, you know, someone that’s congenital, maybe they were born with that disability, maybe it was a late life experience, you know, they grew up in sport before they were injured or became impaired. Did they have to relearn for it through adapters for did they not participate in sport? But now, since incurring a disability, it’s an avenue for them to get their life back on track. Or maybe they were wounded in the line of battle. You know, I work with several special forces operators who are now paralympic athletes, It’s not uncommon for me and one day of coaching to work with three Purple Heart recipients. So that’s kind of a really rewarding experience for me because these people have sacrificed so much for for our country, for our freedom for our rights, that if I can help them get their life back on track and get them, uh you know, hopefully one step closer to their goals, then maybe they would have without me. Um you know, I can’t really think of anything much more rewarding than that

[0:23:41 Speaker 2] man. That’s such an incredible variable. I guess, maybe we can call it um that you do experience in paris sport versus you know, I mean, obviously there may be other variations of that working in the collegiate setting, but Like you’re saying, if you if you’re working with a 25 year old who spent the 1st 24 years of their life, that’s what we would call an April thought he’d athlete and then maybe an accident happened. Like I just can’t imagine playing a role in them kind of maybe accepting their injury if that’s something that does weigh on them and then just kind of guiding and working with them through that.

[0:24:14 Speaker 1] Yeah, I mean coach Hansen, you’re, you’re one of the unique coaches out there. We’ve had the fortune or misfortune of having to come work with Jamie and I and chula. Um you know, part of, part of my fun experience and working at the training center was having that interim program and I was fortunate hopefully play a small role in mentoring 27 different insurance the last 10 years. And I really enjoy getting those young coaches out on the floor with para athletes and for you, I know we threw you right in the fire with Lex Gillette, David Brown who R. T11 category for for anyone who’s not familiar, that’s track and field 11 meeting, they’re completely visually impaired, so they can’t see anything. Uh let’s, you know, he can long jump 66.77 m and David Brown can run a 10 9 200 m. Um I’d love to hear maybe what that experience might have taught you or what you might have learned from it, and hopefully it was something. Hopefully, hopefully we got you to learn something and walk away with some some kind of impact.

[0:25:12 Speaker 2] No, but to set the stage set the story straight, it was absolutely a fortune to work with both you and Jamie. And then also like you’re listening Lex Gillette and David Brown, which actually makes me think about a few funny stories reflecting on that. But even like kind of, the question I was I was asking is like, I remember we worked with the, I had the privilege to help you work with a quadriplegic tennis player down there. And I thinking back to a Donnie was saying with regards to motivation, coming to the weight room and do some enjoy, do some don’t and of course it’s individual, but I remember for that quadriplegic tennis player that it seemed like it was always like a joy coming to the weight room doing something, you know, outside of what probably most people think that that person could have done, um, which obviously brought challenges with regards to how you program for them. Um, I’m starting to get off tangent, but like thinking of throwing me into the fire. I remember one day you were gone, it was maybe the second or third week

[0:26:10 Speaker 0] working with,

[0:26:12 Speaker 1] I

[0:26:14 Speaker 2] don’t know if it was vacation or travel

[0:26:16 Speaker 0] for work,

[0:26:17 Speaker 1] but

[0:26:18 Speaker 2] um this quadriplegic tennis player came in and was like, oh, you know, I don’t know if I can do this exercise, I was like, okay, now it’s my time to kind of make some edits on what this quadriplegic chair bound athlete can do, and so that’s where I kind of, I know the challenge and creativity um and there’s definitely a fun piece to it comes out with how can we accomplish this goal, whether it’s a movement or

[0:26:40 Speaker 1] what

[0:26:41 Speaker 0] with someone,

[0:26:42 Speaker 2] and I think a big part of that, I remember learning to answer your question is just communicating with athletes and right, and that’s gonna be a big similarity between regardless of who you’re coaching is how much collaboration there has to be with the athlete themselves, because no one knows their bodies better than them.

[0:26:58 Speaker 1] It’s awesome. It’s music to my ears to hear you say that because I’m biased, that’s how I see it. But it’s it’s great to see other coaches kind of discover that and learn that and I don’t want to speak for you. But I hope when you went off to teach an athlete who can see or can use their limbs how to do a complex task, maybe it was maybe you learn something that you wouldn’t have thought of before. Maybe that process came easier to you.

[0:27:22 Speaker 2] Yeah, and I’m gonna I’m gonna flip the script right back on you, is how did working with visually impaired athletes? Um like electric Gillette, you know what? Maybe lex is not the good example. His flex can do most exercise is better than any athlete

[0:27:35 Speaker 1] I’ve worked with. But

[0:27:36 Speaker 2] how does working with the visually impaired athlete changed your view with regards to how you q how you convey information? Um Things like that.

[0:27:45 Speaker 1] Yeah, sure. I mean it’s funny, it’s pretty widely accepted, right? You know, using external cues to teach a new task or complex movement to an athlete, ideally a short movement or or vertical movement. Um You know, you might want to make an analogy or use external queuing so the athlete can can then relate to it, right? But like a visually impaired athlete, they may not have seen anything in their life. So what analogy are you gonna make right that they’re going to grasp per se? And there are times where that works. There are times when that definitely works, but like sometimes you can have to throw the book out the window maybe for that athlete and internal queue might actually be more effective because that’s all they, that’s all they really can kind of lean into. It’s not for every athlete, not for every official impaired athletes, some of them have seen and then lost their sight, maybe some of them can’t see a little bit, but for me, it’s like how can you teach your really, just limited by your own coach and creativity in your own communication. So if you can teach a visually impaired athlete how to do it publicly, and what is your excuse when you can work with somebody who can see? Um you know, if you can teach visually impaired athlete how to do? Uh I don’t know, box to box jump, you know, what’s your excuse when you’re working with an athlete who who can see? Um you know, so for me it just kind of takes the excuses out of the equation sometimes. Uh you know, I love I love teaching visually impaired athletes a complex movement or movement pattern or a new movement, a new movement patterns. One of my favorite things to get to do on a regular basis, you know, something like plyometrics or skip progressions about aggressions or weightlifting progressions. Um I just love the challenge. It’s been really fun for me, and I think the athletes love it too. I mean you got to see it firsthand where instead of saying, okay now we’re gonna put you a little bit of bubble wrap because you can’t see, maybe it’s safer to just do X. Y. Said um you know, there’s a lot of them really, really gravitate to the challenge is part of what they live with. You know, just going to do laundry on their own as a challenge. So a lot of them gravitate to it and they want to be challenged and I think sometimes a pair of sport younger coaches or new coaches to it, we might kind of um take the user route because we’re not sure what’s going to happen or we’re not sure what’s best for the athlete or were kind of hesitant or maybe even scared working with athletes with impairment, but hopefully over time you can kind of break through that and take the bubble wrap off and just go for it.

[0:30:09 Speaker 2] Absolutely. And then again, kind of continuing to highlight just what you, what you work with when you’re coaching on the day to day is like when you have an athlete with cerebral palsy, um, how does that change your outlook with regards to, like, when you’re looking for movement patterns or even trying to execute a certain movement before maybe they lose control, you know, whatever point it may be. How has that challenged you in your day to day coaching?

[0:30:33 Speaker 1] You’re putting me on the Xbox. That’s that’s probably one of the trickier areas. Right? So the whole impaired muscle power coordination area, whether it be T. V. I. Or or athletes with several policy, it can be tricky. But with CP specifically, um, you know, you got to look at as a hyper Tony attacks or apoptosis. And then within that, you have athletes who present those different symptoms in heavy police to die. Please your power Felisha. So right there, there’s a migrated possibilities or combinations that the alpha could present CP. And I think outside of just movement patterns, you need to consider the overall training load, you know, load management or load monitoring such a big thing in today’s industry or performance realm. But as an athlete with CP, you know, they can look very different walking into the weight room from session to session, It’s not uncommon for an athlete. You might use a cane or crutches one day to show up in a wheelchair the next, because they’re completely fried. And that sucks. I mean, you just reduce their way of life, that you just reduce the quality of living, right? So you gotta be real careful with what you do when you do it. And ideally, like you mentioned earlier, speaking to the athletes, working with the athletes, learning from the athletes, it’s probably a good place to start With CP specifically, it kind of hits three different main buckets to me. One being motor function, one being muscle recruitment, one being motor control with the motor function, see if you can affect mobility and balance within muscle recruitment, it can affect the ability to recruit and it can affect and voluntary recruitment, which are two completely different things that can really uh effective, set the training session right? And then with motor control, you gotta look at gate movement, efficiency as well as energy expenditure. If they’re having spastic responses, you’re then potentially doubling or tripling the energy costs of what their demand was supposed to be. So you gotta you gotta take all that into consideration as you go go through that process.

[0:32:25 Speaker 2] Absolutely not even remember again interning under you. You’re working with an athlete who had CP and it was such a simple environmental change that you made. Um but to me, it was like ingenious as you just set up a box. I hate when this athlete was doing a squat right to the point on any given day where the athlete, you know, maybe just above where they started to lose control. And then I remember some days it required a wedge, Other days are required maybe moving the weight above head, below head. But just thinking that way, I remember kind of opened my eyes to how you can manipulate an environment to kind of seek the outcome you’re looking for.

[0:33:01 Speaker 1] Yeah, again, you’re being too kind, and when you say and turned under me, hopefully it was worked with us, hopefully, hopefully that’s that was the experience you had, but but with that, um yeah, I mean, like you said, there’s there’s many ways it’s going to get me many roads that lead to Rome, I’m not, I’m not big on every athlete has to do one specific movement. Like you mentioned, hopefully you’re chasing the outcome of what that sessions, you know, specific goal or focus was, and if it was a squat pattern, you know, God forbid we use a halo age one day or an overhead way to implement another, but the athletes still squatting and at the end of the day, if that’s what I feel is important for that specific athlete that specific time, then as a coach, hopefully have the creativity and flexibility to find a way to get the job done

[0:33:48 Speaker 2] right, That’s awesome.

[0:33:51 Speaker 0] I just quick question to kind of throwing for, for you. Sam, let’s listen to you and mike. So years ago, you know, I played ball at Georgia, they did this story on this wrestler. That was, I want to say, I can’t remember the story exactly. Sam I want to say he was, he didn’t have any legs just from birth, from genital defects or whatever being born. Um so they, the parents kind of did a piece in there where they raised this kid, where they treated him like he didn’t have any impairments or restrictions or like he was just normal and that he would, I don’t know, I read stories like that where parents raise their kids like that, but do you ever working with paralympic athletes, they ever get offended or mad if you try to help them a certain way or No?

[0:34:42 Speaker 1] Yeah, coach, I mean, your wisdom shining through right now, because there are a lot of unique elements that kind of go along with the social, social, physical or social, uh, and I need a little more arrests here that we’re also keeping me up. But the social aspect of interacting with the athletes of paralympic sport can be completely interesting because you might have athletes who were completely uh, bubble frat, I guess for a nice way of saying it by their parents, their whole life and they want things handed to them and that’s not how I like to coach. I’d like to have athletes discover how to lead their own journey versus me telling them what to do all the time. And then you might have athletes who come in who are completely independent to the point where if you just do something simple as handing him a band, they might take offense to it. Um, and on top of that, you know, you might have athletes like, let’s, let’s go back to the visual pyramid example. I’ve worked with athletes who are visually impaired who went to public school. I’ve also worked with athletes to efficiently carry who went to, you know, the quote unquote blind schools and that they’re going to have completely different mindsets is because of how they came up and how they came through schooling and how they were kind of either talked to get on and get along with it or hey, we’re going to find a way to kind of pave the road a little bit for you. So, and then with that too, you might have an athlete who has a degenerative disease and maybe they were physically able to do, I don’t know a specific movement, let’s say, but two or three years later, having worked with them neurologically now they’re not able to do that. But some of these athletes, man, hey, you know, I really need to do that because I was able to do that work with athletes who have had to relearn how to walk. It may be walking is the most dangerous thing they do as far as the injury risk standpoint, but they had to relearn how to walk, who am I to tell them that? Hey, why are you coming in at night to walk around the track? It’s a great way. You know the way you walk? It’s a great way to get hurt. Well, shoot man, I didn’t have to relearn how to walk. You know that that’s that’s that’s something that they earned and that’s something they don’t want to lose. So there’s a lot of different, a lot of different aspects that come into play there. So that was a great question.

[0:36:54 Speaker 0] No, it’s mind boggling listening to you because and I know coach chanting can can relate and empathise with me on this is like our athletes today in college, we see and get they get so much provided for him. They’re spoiled and but they’re so fits their healthy and their perspective is so different. Whereas, you know, sometimes, I don’t know, I feel like that we do a disservice because we’re providing all this like performance, team stuff, these services, but they don’t really realize, you know, they always have the gratitude. I’m not saying this for a blanket statement, but you see it with some different athletes sometimes. Um, they just don’t realize really what they have.

[0:37:38 Speaker 1] Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s the same, but the training centers, you know, we’re nonprofit, but we do have a lot of toys and tools and we have a lot, a lot a lot of great people here to work with. All right. I find that a lot of the younger practitioners because I was completely guilty of that myself from that track casts don’t. But you wanted to kind of do things for the athlete, set things up for the athletes. Take away excuses for the athlete, but the longer I’ve been doing this the more I want to do the exact opposite. Hopefully teach the athlete what to do. So I’m not always going to be there. You know, I work with tender from sports who compete all around the world. I want to uh one of my proudest moments of coaches knowing an athlete coming back from a trip and giving me a kind of a debrief and say, okay, so I showed up at a facility, didn’t have this piece of equipment, so I did this instead and I did it on this day of the week, heading into competition plus minus three and I adjusted the plus minus two and it’s they did that on their own because they learned for me, but I didn’t have to do that for them.

[0:38:41 Speaker 0] That’s great. Yeah.

[0:38:42 Speaker 2] Yeah. That sounds like you’re empowering them, right? You’re equipping them so that it’s that it’s that parable of you prepare them for the road, not the road for them,

[0:38:52 Speaker 1] that’s that’s that’s spot on and it’s not you know when you first work with an athlete you got to teach them how to fish. Um But hopefully after a while you just let him go fishing

[0:39:02 Speaker 2] like that.

[0:39:04 Speaker 0] Hey I got my my transition topics here and I know mike I have some more here but just over the years coaching professional basketball U. S. Special forces olympic and paralympic athletes for team Usa

[0:39:19 Speaker 1] how have you

[0:39:20 Speaker 0] grown as a coach or more specifically in what ways have you changed as a coach? Sam.

[0:39:26 Speaker 1] Yeah. Great great question again. Coach Mabe I’ve been it’s funny because these these all chats the fourth one to reflect and it’s something we should do more often but you get caught up. You know I work with summer and winter sport next thing you know it’s two years later and you might not have sat back and looked at all the awesome things that you were able to do um you know, through the opportunity to get blessed with, I’ve been so blessed as I feel every experience I’ve had has really helped me grow. I’ve had a lot of unique stops my journey. Um you know, I think I used to want everything to go according to plan and now I try to roll at the time or I think I used to want to drive athletes for now, I want them to discover, like we just talked about, I think I used to be outcome oriented, it’s great seeing these medals and podium stands, but now I was trying to be more process driven, right? You know, seeing an applicant from stepping out of step uses more excited to see them step up onto the podium sometimes, I think I used to want to be right instead of working towards what the best practical solution was. You know, sometimes being not right is what’s best for everybody. Um I also think early on I wanted to be important, you know, on the sound smarter, come up with a new novel approach that would change the game right now, I could care less. I just I just want to see the outfit slip the dreams and I find myself more often than not. I find that to enable that process to happen. The simplest practical approach generally works best for me as a coach. I think I used to take too much proud of my personal work versus celebrating the athletes work, which is just sad to say out loud, you know, um ideally now I try to not take life too seriously, you know, no one makes it out of lives to hopefully have some fun with the process while you’re at it

[0:41:12 Speaker 0] because stuff I know uh you really definitely hit a struck a chord with me, you know, when you see your athletes have, whether it’s an aha moment or personal breakthrough in their life from performance to head or something in the weight room and, or even in a relationship or something that kind of, you maybe spurred that on a little bit chipping away at a different area of their life, It’s just, it’s so fulfilling and satisfying. So I definitely, I agree with you.

[0:41:41 Speaker 1] Uh, yeah, some of the proudest moments for me, you know, being invited, some of the athletes weddings, having athletes come back to introduce me to their kids, you know, it, that means a lot more to me now than than it would have when I was younger. Um and one thing I might have skipped over onto for me now, it’s the biggest challenge for me is not just coaching now, but coaching, coaches and coach may maybe you can relate to this more than I can see you’ve been doing a lot longer doing it well, something I’m still probably hopefully feeling forward on, but it wasn’t easy for me to transition from a one man show to a past first point guard, you know, it’s a unique set up that we have, we have staff across the country working with different sports and the power of space, We can’t just pull up a chair in the office every Tuesday morning, you know, we’re all over the world, different different points, so finding creative solutions to that dynamic has been a kind of a fun learning process for me to say the least, and I really do feel like it’s on me to ensure that our group of SNC coaches that are working in paris sport that we’re connecting and ideally we’re helping each other grow because, you know, if we’re not, then we could all be trying to go out and learn on our own and learn the same topic and we could be spending a lot of time turning over the same stone were collaborating, so that’s hopefully this next quad, that’s something I can really spend more time focusing on, because I think if we’re going to continue to grow uh in paralympic sport in this country, I need to do a better job, coaching the coach is not just coaching the athletes,

[0:43:06 Speaker 0] you know, that’s that’s definitely a different, like I said, that’s a different challenge skill when you’re coaching coaches that you you’re overseeing or working with, and that’s definitely there’s an arts tattoo, so for sure, it’s not easy because you gotta, you gotta, you got to deal with problems, you know, I always wanted to know if you’ve ever heard you were my cancer coach, you’ve heard this parable of, you know, I always say every leader has two buckets, right? You carry two buckets in your hand at all times, one has Watering It, one has gasoline in it. And when you handle problems, either put a little water on it or you put it as a leader, you put a little gasoline, you know, and make it bigger. So I think that’s the to be able to solve problems to help people through challenges. I think that’s a big part of what we do with our athletes, but also when you start overseeing other people. So it’s a big piece of it, for sure.

[0:43:58 Speaker 1] That’s awesome. That’s terrific insights, something I probably needed to hear. So thanks for sharing that

[0:44:04 Speaker 0] concerned contents, You got anything to add here? Uh kind of as we get near the end

[0:44:09 Speaker 2] um yeah, just as we wind down a couple of quick questions just to kind of pick your brain here, your opinion SAm. But one is like, what qualities do you see, whether it’s qualities that you’ve developed as a coach or qualities you’ve seen in other coaches that make coaches successful?

[0:44:27 Speaker 1] Yeah, I think so. Again, been super fortunate to be around some really high high performing coaches wouldn’t like to put myself in that that category, but some of the coaches have worked with our and um I think a lot of them are generally patient, they’re adaptable. Um you know, they they don’t Force one System on everybody ideally find the right system for each individual. Um yeah, don’t you can look at something as simple as weightlifting or para lifting and coaches have been super successful programming by is doing the exact opposite, but the qualities and those coaches, you know, ideally they help their athletes grow and pull the most out of them or other coaches might not be able to, so they usually good communicators, good teachers, they’re adaptable and generally I find that they’re pretty patient.

[0:45:27 Speaker 2] Yeah, and it’s, it’s maybe become a cliche to sound, but like I’m just, I’m starting to learn or I have learned over the last few years that it’s like truly not ex’s knows like I’ve just seen too many examples now, it always comes back to who, like you say, communicates, conveys information relates with the athletes, you know, the best, it seems like are the coaches who end up finding success because as you, as you pinpointed is that there’s no right like one way to do things. Um and so it just comes down to how well you can relate with people,

[0:45:58 Speaker 1] How boring would it be if there was only one right way to do it, you show up every day and you do the same thing over and over, and that’s all you do for 30 or 40 years, you know, I I I enjoy kind of the the uncertainty, like that’s that’s kind of involved with what we do um and and like, you know, you got to experience that with some of the greatest field coaches of all time. You know, if we can look at our Vanegas and your time chula, and I don’t know that any of humans ever coached more athletes to throw over 22 m in the shop with an R. And you saw how, how simple he went about things, you know, and Coach Cruise, who I worked with on the paralympic side. You know, I come in with this big fancy spreadsheet and I want to account for every load and account for where everything is gonna be at what week of the year. And he wrote stuff out on a napkin for me, right? And he did it well though he did it really well and he used to say that, you know, spending 10 hours on a spreadsheet is more valuable than spending five minutes on a napkin at the end of the day. It’s how you execute it, how you connect,

[0:46:54 Speaker 2] right? I love that you brought that up because you know, coming on the heels of olympic trials in the U. S. Um with with joe finishing second throwing it for, I can’t remember it was over 22 m again, but I was just telling our colleague Clint Martin who works with track and field here at texas. Um like I remember how simple that program was and I told him that a few times I was like it’s crazy. Like at the end of the day like again I kind of alluded to it is it just comes down to how well you communicate with people and how you can gauge how they’re feeling on different days and it’s not necessarily about what they’re actually doing in the weight room.

[0:47:30 Speaker 1] How spoiled were we? I mean we know to to Rio might have been a few months after your time, but you know to have Ryan to have Daryl and to have joe all three shot put representatives and um you know, they all went about it slightly different. You know, art was obviously we’re going to roll and show at the same time. So there’s just more similar than different. But you know how Ryan went about, it was different than how joe went about it. But hopefully they were both working the plan. That was right for them.

[0:47:57 Speaker 2] Absolutely. And but I don’t know if you put this together, but we’re huge Ryan Krauser

[0:48:01 Speaker 1] fans, I can imagine, I can imagine, you know, we had a we had a few longhorns come through over the years between uh, camps between the resident programs and yeah, one thing I really stood out to me about a lot of the texas athletes that came through and they were all very respectful. Remember Ryan’s first time popping in the weight room asking if, you know, his old training mate was around, he came in and introduced himself and shook my hand and asked if miller was around and you know, I was like, man like, you know, just stand up guy and every time he trained he would make sure you put things right back where they belong and I know those little things, but not not every program teaches those little things, so you know, that’s a credit to everybody down in texas her for sending on good people, not just good athletes to the where they go next.

[0:48:49 Speaker 2] Awesome. And then I guess my last question for you is um kind of I know, I know you have a long list and you’re such a nice guy and I know you want to leave anyone out but like who have been the influences, coaches or athletes in your career who have made a huge impact on you.

[0:49:06 Speaker 1] Yeah, it’s tough because you never want to miss anybody, but you know, obviously my parents to start off with my dad was was a great athlete, much better than I ever was, and it really kind of, and still the fun passion and support for me, which which led to everything I’m doing now. Um you know, my high school basketball coach challenged me to be player coach both my summer and spring league junior and senior year, so he wouldn’t even show up, he gave me the clipboard, I coached our high school team while playing, um you know, that was that was pretty pivotal, you know, that kind of got me in a coaching, he knew was going to be a coach someday, and that’s where you kind of start um, you know, summer camps along the way, looking at Dave Cowens basketball school, getting the coach for itself, that was always fun getting to work and physical education taught me a lot of the unique things, um but you know, dr Ellen Robinson of the Master’s program, she was, she was just such a great influence, just a great person, great, great human, great lecture, a great coach uh, at Colorado Springs, you know, john carr lock rob shorts and then Whitmire took a lot of time with me um out in chula Jamie and eric Lawson, who I still lean on to this day, um you know, out in Golden State, johann weighing his, his, his knowledge. I mean it was next level he was doing things that I look back on now that I’m not so sure a lot of NBA clubs are currently doing. Um he was just a, a fantastic practitioner and a great leader, my time and special forces man, I learned from everybody that was like getting an MBA and leadership just by hanging out with the people who are supposed to coach. You know, they were, they were just fantastic leaders and fantastic individuals. Um And you know then there’s always those remote resources, you know, I’ve been fortunate to listen to Donnie present multiple times. I went down to texas is something I want to say in 2016 and 2017 he put on a great clinic and I was able to learn there and you know, I just feel like there’s so many people who I don’t interact with daily but I’ve also had an influence on me positively, you know, I tend to gravitate towards the coaches and the practitioners who have a bit of gray hair. Um you know coach lawson uh randi Wilbur, you know, they take a lot of time with me here at the U. S. O. P. C. Also remotely people like Vern Gambetta and shit Radcliffe killing Giles. Coach ponder chuck, you know stealing for coaches who who have been doing it well and doing it for a while. I think it’s important.

[0:51:34 Speaker 0] Absolutely definitely. Yeah definitely resume. That’s a lot of people there. You just quality uh coaches quality individuals around your life. So it shows um as we get here at the end, I don’t have one fun question for you saying this little off school, that sounds good. You mentioned it at the start so we’re gonna finish it like what’s one mike Hanson story you can you feel

[0:52:02 Speaker 1] a hot seat, right my kids and then you know spike ball was big in mike’s life at the time. That’s one thing that stuck out. You know, he was he was really in a spike ball and poor mike. I think he was kind enough to invite me to go play once or twice but I was a little more focused on my fiance happy on the weekends at the time because I was gone so much during the week on top of that. I remember one time I came walking in with a ah not while he was coaching because he was more professional than that, but during a training session, early mornings before the athletes came, he was wearing a tank top from Thailand of one of the beer companies in Thailand and I called out the bear company and he was shocked and I said, well, shoot man, my wife bought me the same one. So you know, Mike, Mike was just he was a sponge, but he knew what he was doing, you could tell he was going to go on and do great things and one thing about mike and the interview process and stuck out to me and I believe I was the one put him through the wringer back then, you know, he worked with mike and bow up in michigan, who obviously had taught us the olympic committee, but he also worked with coach deeds at Minnesota and I’ve worked with a lot of coaches from both those programs and I thought, wow, like two programs who have had a lot of success doing things completely different, these kids probably gonna have an open mind and when he showed up he didn’t disappoint, he had open mind and he had a creative way of thinking, so that that paid off for us and he provided a lot of great hands on the floor of support while asking great questions along the way,

[0:53:37 Speaker 2] man, if yeah, if I could just add, man, did I fall forward looking into the internship with regards to michigan, like, I had no idea who their coaches were and I was just hoping they take me on um kind of Minnesota as well, it just happens to be home for me. So, um it’s like you were saying earlier in this in this interview is reflecting which we should probably do more of as like at least once a year, I think like man, did I get lucky to have those experiences as well as working with you and Jamie, have you guys introduced me to those um kind of track and field legends like Jim Radcliffe, you know, coach ponder chuck brands bosch?

[0:54:12 Speaker 1] Yeah, you know, I think sometimes to like younger coaches, like they might have gone to michigan or Minnesota to chase the logo and not the learning experience and luckily for you, you didn’t know any better, you went for the learning experience and uh it paid off, you know, I think sometimes these unheard of coaches are small programs. You know, we were talking about Jamie before we jumped on and some of the coaches will stay under the radar as good as anyone you’ll ever eat. Um it’s not always about the logo. You know, I’m fortunate. I’ve got to work. I’m pretty awesome places that other people might view as, you know, elite settings or whatnot. But for me, you know, it’s, it’s the people that you get to meet along the way and hopefully where you go, you can learn the most and I’ve been fortunate as well to fall forward. It’s great situation so I can relate to that.

[0:55:03 Speaker 0] Yeah, real quick. I don’t, we’re about to wrap up, its just to hit what mike said earlier and saying you, you said earlier in this this episode, but I’ve seen the most successful coaches seem like the ones that come in and did what you did. Where can I add value to these athletes versus chasing a logo or brand or position and then they end up getting, creating value. The coaches see the athletes see it, it’s and they put resources towards it in and you kind of carve your own path. It’s kind of, I don’t know, it’s a very inspiring story, so I appreciate you sharing it all today. That was huge.

[0:55:40 Speaker 1] Thanks coach. You know, it’s, It’s been a humbling experience and a lot of lessons to patients along the way, but you know, 1, 1 kind of extremely humbling thing that’s happened to me is everywhere I’ve worked. I’ve been, I’ve been invited back and hopefully that means you left an impact in some way, form or fashion that was positive because why would they want you back if they didn’t? Um so, uh you know, with that I’ve been handed some some unique roles that I did not get in the field to pursue. I didn’t get in the field, you know, 13 years ago and say I want to be the paralympic strength conditioning coach of the U. S. O. P. C. That didn’t exist. But hopefully if you get, you get handed a little rope, you can run with it and create whatever you want to create. And I’ve been fortunate where I’ve been, uh, you know, put in positions where I can, can create the job I want to have. Um, and that’s, that’s been been awesome.

[0:56:33 Speaker 0] Stop anything else their attention as we wrap up, anything you want to add.

[0:56:37 Speaker 2] No, I just want to acknowledge that, um, we understand that your father of an eight week old daughter and so we just, you know, especially appreciate that you made time to talk with us today and I know you’re struggling to keep up on sleep as most newly parents do, but just thanks again for carving out this time and being so willing.

[0:56:57 Speaker 1] My pleasure. This was a unique experience because I think sometimes podcast or interviews and in this day and age of the internet, uh, you don’t always know the person that well on the other end, poor coach made. He got stuck next to me on a shuttle flight from Colorado Springs to Denver after a conference here in Colorado Springs. Uh, that poor guy, he looked like he was probably ready for some rest after a long weekend of presenting and sharing. And I just, I couldn’t shut up and pick his brain the whole flight and he was more than a gentleman in the entire time. So, you know, a great, great person, not just a great coach and then like to know you personally and to have worked with you on the floor for months, um you know, hopefully you can call me out and say if anything I just shared wasn’t the truth. Um, you know, versus somebody who I’ve never met might just be an internet friend, right? So you know, this is, this has been fun,

[0:57:44 Speaker 0] awesome. Sam, I’ll definitely echo mike, thank you so much for your time when you know it’s precious and uh, for just sharing your experience, knowledge, expertise. I know the listeners will get a lot from this episode, so again, thank you and and that’s it from the Team Behind the Team. So Sam, thanks so much. Again, Mike Hanson, you are the man, appreciate you co hosting. Hey, we will catch you guys next month on the Team Behind the Team podcast. We are out of here, This is dani Made and we’ll see you soon.

[0:58:20 Speaker 2] Thanks

[0:58:20 Speaker 0] so much for tuning in and listening to this episode of the team Behind the Team podcast. For future episodes. Go to Itunes, Spotify, google podcasts or

[0:58:31 Speaker 2] stitcher. We definitely want to keep having great guests on the show in great content. So if you have a moment,

[0:58:37 Speaker 0] please go to Itunes, leave a rating and review and let us know how we’re

[0:58:41 Speaker 2] doing. I’m Donny Made

[0:58:43 Speaker 0] and thanks so much for tuning in. Mm

[0:58:49 Speaker 2] Yeah yeah