E17 | Daniel Martinez: Multiple Perspectives to Performance

[0:00:01 Speaker 1] Welcome to the team behind the team podcast. I’m your host, don t may. This is the monthly show focused on building conversations around the team based model approach to ethics, performance, strength and conditioning, sports, medicine, sports, science, mental health and wellness and sports nutrition. Hello and welcome back to the team behind the team podcast. I’m your host, don t Mayb and hope everybody is having a great, uh, winter and spring. So far, we are well into 2021. And today’s guest, I am super excited to not only introduced, but just have a great conversation with him. And so, first and foremost, let’s welcome our guest coach, Daniel Martinez from Trinity College. Coach. Welcome to the show.

[0:00:54 Speaker 0] Thanks for having me, Dani. It’s a real privilege to be able to do this, and I appreciate it. Happy New Year.

[0:00:59 Speaker 1] Good stuff. Yeah, I appreciate you know, you’re a busy man with with all the things you get on your plate and with covid and all that, but I know just, you know, the with the podcast. We’re just trying to get different guests from those five buckets of sports science, strength and conditioning, nutrition, mental health and wellness and apply sports science. But the cool thing about you Coach Martinez that we wanted to have, we We know you’re a strength and conditioning coach. But the cool part about you, the fascinating part to me is that you are really a sports scientist to at heart. So you kinda you blend the two together. So that was a big, um, when I talked to our our sports scientist, Travis Volonte, Is your name immediately popped up? Of course I’ve I’ve heard of you before, but the more I’ve read about you and listen and just kinda observed you from afar, I couldn’t wait to meet you and have you on the show and knew that our listeners would get a lot out of today’s conversation. So with that, let’s let’s jump right into the show here and we’ll let you, uh, we’ll let you get Introduce yourself before we go, though again, this is coach Daniel Martinez. He is on his fourth year as Trinity’s head strengthened attention coach and coordinator um, of the Sports Performance Center. Yeah, this academic year. So Coach Martinez has a wide array of experience working with multiple teams just some of the highlights that that stick out to me. Coach, um, you’ve obviously you’re you’re a director, which takes a lot of time. You work directly with volleyball. That’s correct,

[0:02:34 Speaker 0] right?

[0:02:35 Speaker 1] And I mean, that’s a sport I worked with over the years, so I can’t wait to hear about your some of your insights on that. Um, you’ve done some work with the Golden State Warriors. I’m sure that was That was a cool experience. You learned a ton from that? Uh, one of my favorite things that the coach has done. He’s He’s got his his master’s degree correct from Eastern Powering University over in Australia. So you’ve been certified through the A S e A as well, not just the American certification process, but the Australian certification process, which, if you’ve ever studied, that is very extensive and very thorough and not an easy thing to get through. So, uh, with that, I want to I want to welcome you to the show and your first question coach with your wide variety of experiences, including working with club volleyball teams, publishing research, consulting, professional teams. Can you speak to how your experiences have led you to your current position at Trinity.

[0:03:34 Speaker 0] Yeah, some of it. We mentioned volleyball. Volleyball was a pretty primary piece, I think, in the puzzle. For a long time it was. I chose to specialize early on because I had an affinity for the population, uh, and really enjoyed the structure that club volleyball in that case provided is that it gave me enough contact with the athletes to make a difference. And then I started keying in on some things that in a young female athlete, population is largely low hanging fruit. But then there was a refinement to that process that I think, as as I became more educated and progressed in my career started adding layers to it, where really I started as just a pure coach first. And then the science piece started becoming a heavy and heavier backbone that really, I think, supports the integrity of our careers in the long term, you know, and that that can take, you know, different shapes and forms. Like you said, uh, as a consultant, that was that’s kind of wearing a different hat than it is in terms of leading teams on a day to day basis. Uh, I always say consulting is professional advice, basically, And if you don’t attach yourself to the outcomes that are necessary, then you know it’s really just you having a good chat,

[0:04:43 Speaker 1] you know, like of

[0:04:44 Speaker 0] something that is probably probably a shared interest, but not necessarily something that you’re going to help anybody go anywhere. And that’s what the whole purpose of of performance enhancement is. The idea that we have targets that we want to hit and achieve and aligning things to make sure that that happens.

[0:05:04 Speaker 1] Good stuff. What about when you when you first began it, coaching at Trinity? Uh, kind of what was your approach to successfully integrating sports science and where there’s some challenges as you kind of started to do that?

[0:05:17 Speaker 0] Yeah, absolutely. I think. I think, uh, logistically, there are definitely, you know, large challenges. I’m a single staff member, so I actually, I have I have some assistance from assistant coaches and different sports. One of our valuable assistant has a strength conditioning background as well. She did her masters and strength conditioning, which is very helpful, but overall, it’s largely me coordinating the effort of, you know in principle, 17 teams on a on a day to day basis. It’s probably 10 to 12 teams that will see in our facility on a regular basis. And then that brings constraints where, for the most part, I’m grounded to the weight room. So I’ve got to figure out how to what I always characterized as how to do more with less, you know, and how to do less better and and but at the same time to hold that to the standard of what we know from a measurement standpoint, uh, that that sports science lens can help to refine that process. Uh, and you know, like for me, I’d start out and I’d say I probably fell into being very conservative and going with more just, you know, average workloads instead of applying the same process that I did as a as a private coach prior to that which which I personally find to be the technical model that that I’m more aligned with as a practitioner. But I think I was just a little gun shy. Uh, the analysis, however, that that that that we would do, I think, you know, certainly helped me to recognize some of that early on in that you know, we were doing, you know, good quality work in the weight room. But I always tell people there’s a difference between programming and work, and a lot of coaches just have their athletes do more work than everybody else. And if you do more work than everybody else, then you’re largely going to be in a better position to be successful. But the problem is, when you have athletes with schedules and academic demands and etcetera like lifestyle, Uh, and you cannot do more, you know, like stress is unlimited, but your recovery capacity is not. And therefore we have to be a little bit more surgical about where we apply these interventions and and how we measure for, uh, for success and for failure.

[0:07:24 Speaker 1] Yeah, I remember you said something there about the time, and I think I I don’t know that unless, like yourself for myself. You’re working in a weight room and you’re dealing with these athletes on a day to day just how much time crunch they have. And and I remember seeing hearing an analogy of like, you know, time for a student athlete, especially in college, is like a budget right. You’ve only got so much time that you can budget for certain things. And if you start trying to budget too much, the count gets overdrawn and there are some consequences and residual outcomes, that kind of impact performance. So you’re spot on with that one?

[0:07:58 Speaker 0] Yeah, absolutely. I’d say attentional capacity is you know, multitasking especially, I think is something that, uh, there’s a great book that you know, is is it’s actually a project management book. But, uh is when I read it, I was like, This is a period ization book is it’s called Scrum. How to do twice the work in half the time, which sounds like nonsense. But when you read the the you know, the structure of the book and the content and the way that he advises going about projects instead, it’s It’s actually a very you know what? What? What’s also, uh, synonymous with the term agile, right, agile period ization is a term that’s that’s been more recently popularized by launch of UNMOVIC and other other people. Uh, but it’s it’s it’s really just an effort not to reinvent the wheel, but to just look at ways that we can you know, add efficiency to the process.

[0:08:51 Speaker 1] That’s good stuff, Coach. I’m curious, though, like, so you You talk about your your your sports science through the head strength coach, too. Um, collecting, you know, different data and just monitoring athletes. Kind of as you’re You started doing that, I’m sure. Now you’ve got more buy in. But like when you first started, how did you kind of approach that with some of your sport coaches and kind of how did you navigate that and work through some of that? What were some of the things you did then?

[0:09:17 Speaker 0] Yeah, it’s interesting. The, uh the relationship I have that probably drove things early on, including me. You know, having an opportunity to to take the role was I’ve been working with the volleyball program there as a consultant prior to my hiring as a a full time staff member, uh, since 2000 and eight and are valuable programs worked to be, you know, very successful like we were. We were a third place in the last year in nationals, losing to the eventual national champion, Johns Hopkins in the in the semifinal match, uh, and taking a set off of them, which I think only one other team had done all year and ended up being the same case in the in the championship final. But so we’ve worked with that process, our head coach there, she really gives me a tremendous platform to be successful. And I think that that, you know, it helps you know the alignment of what we do. Uh, you know, like, it’s it’s it’s invaluable. Um, but I’d say, you know, like I always used I used this story. I’ve used it before but I tell people I I talked. I had a young man that I coached and his dad was telling me was a basketball player, right? And he told me this and it was cold. He said, uh, Daniel, every parent is the same. They want the four best kids on the basketball court and their kid. So I always tell people like there’s this personal effect to like for instance, like with when I take the role as head strength condition goes like, Hey, it’s great. You guys have had success with volleyball, etcetera, etcetera. But this is about this team, you know, my team and what we’re trying to do, and you’ve got to find a way to be receptive to that. So one of the things around feedback especially, I think that gets lost in our field. There’s a a quote from the book sense making that that I took took to heart. That said, It’s not about having the right words. It’s about having the right attitude. And if you approach it that way, it really reduces the borders that people feel around this. There’s a practitioner I know we both know Ernie Reimer at University of Utah. Yeah, who, uh, it’s it’s the term is actually called trans disciplinary, meaning. It’s beyond boundaries. And Ernie and I like you talk about someone who who just, you know, have your hair on fire from from the thought process. We’re having a beer at the old Seattle Sounders Sports science event, and he’s you know, he’s like doing blueprints on the table as we’re talking and, you know, doing you know, three or four different things at once. And he explained trans discipline, the trans disciplinary process and in such a clear, uh, lucid way that it really just, you know, like told me like that’s exactly what I want to achieve. And he basically said, you know, the trans disciplinary processes, You go into a room together and you work towards your solutions. But everybody understands the language and what you’re trying to achieve, and therefore everybody is brought into the process right where I think sometimes where we make mistakes is we have our agendas, and we have things that we feel like we’re gonna move, you know, things in the direction that they’re going. But if we don’t do a good job of providing clarity around how we’re going to go about doing those things, then like nobody has a reason to be on our team as it were, you know, And, uh and that’s going to get in the way with get in the way of performance.

[0:12:29 Speaker 1] That’s good stuff. I think you know, Here, you speak. It definitely sounds like you’ve got a just a great grass. Not only just how how to, um, integrate things, but I think I hear you sell it. Saying there too. You got to be a kind of a good salesman to a little bit, right? Would you say

[0:12:48 Speaker 0] absolutely? Yeah. So, uh, one of my favorite books was actually a recommendation from from Todd right when I did his train for the game mentorship when he was at Texas. Uh, and I think that it was the only book recommendation that I remember. This was in 2010. So this is from memory. But at the end of the mentor ship, myself and a few others are asking for resources, etcetera, things to continue study on. And the only book recommendation that Todd made was the greatest salesman in the world by augment Dino. Uh, and it’s it is. It’s, you know, like when when a lot of people hear the term sales like, I think that they they you know, it gets misrepresented because somebody is selling you something that you’re not sure you want to buy. But that exists in every aspect of relationships and interactions is whether people are buying. You know what you’re selling. And, uh, it is it’s important that we learn to be, you know, not only very structural with the science side of things, but also that we become compelling story tellers that help people understand. You know, cohesiveness and connection are absolutely central to what we do is practitioners, whatever role you’re in.

[0:13:56 Speaker 1] Yeah. So, Coach, I’m definitely picking up on your A big reader. So, man, that’s I love that to hear that about you that you’ve already got. You got me wanting to go look at Amazon. I want to get off this podcast to go look at Amazon. Uh, start Look at these books that you’ve been recommended. But another book I got for you Coach, too on sales is called to sell as Human by Dan Pink. I don’t know if you’ve ever read that one, but it’s a it’s basically, you know, you just you just gave the thesis in a nutshell, that we’re really all in sales today. We’re not. You know, your traditional kind of negative perspective review or stereotype of a salesman was like the door to door briefcase, pamphlets suit knocking on doors. And today, that’s just not That’s really not the correct image of a salesman because there’s so much technology. There’s so many ways to track and monitor and measure things in sport that you’ve got to be able to know me to do that, but to analyze it and break it down in small tidbits and be able to sell that to your coaches and your trainers in such a way that they’ll listen and be open to making those suggestions you have. So that’s a phenomenal point, Coach. Um, the bridge off that if you ever had is there ever been a time where maybe, you know, with a trainer or somebody with trying to integrate somebody, Really? Just you had a hard, tough time to get them to buy in and kinda, how’d you How’d you kind of work with somebody like that? Because I think I think we we we experienced that more than ever. Uh, sometimes especially, uh, I know there will be a day Coach Martinez where we won’t have the skepticism on this because it’s still kind of pioneering here in the U. S. But, like, how would you advice that somebody’s really struggling to get a trainer or a nutritionist or somebody to buy? And how would you handle that?

[0:15:48 Speaker 0] Yeah, I always tell people, you know, uh, good coaching is you tell someone and I’ll share another story in a in a second from that, but good coaching is you tell someone exactly what you need to be done. How to go about doing it. You know why it’s important, etcetera. You tell them to do that, and they change nothing about their performance or they’re like what they’re doing. What you do next to me is what defines you as a coach, because if you accept that standard, that’s your new standard, and that’s going to bring down the level of of everyone in that environment. But if you if you step up to the plate and challenge in that case, I always tell people, um, people who think you’re weak will offer you an excuse. People who think you can be strong will offer you a challenge, right and like And so we should be grateful for people willing to challenge us in a in a positive way and understand that that’s that’s the essence of competition. The word competition actually comes from Latin from computer, which means to to strive together, right, so, like by me being willing to strive for the best. That’s the only way that I’m gonna be able to have that positive effect on you know what, however complicated issue actually is, and then it just comes back to attitude of Of uh I would say that, uh, probably both equal measure of courage and compassion, of being willing to to meet people where they are and and and, you know, help them understand, You know, like that. I think that aspect of vulnerability doesn’t get as much bandwidth in in athlete populations, especially student athlete populations, because and and and, you know, burn a Brown has her her vulnerability prayer, which is allow myself to have the courage to show up and let myself be seen, you know, and that And that’s something that I think the courage to do that and then have somebody stand in front of you. So for me as a coach for someone to show up, doing that and then for me not to be willing to find compassion and in my attitude about where they’re at and just, you know, maybe come from a place of judgement, etcetera, I think that’s what builds the skepticism and the cynicism and and people, you know, buying into the process. Uh, and that’s a huge issue for for all of us, you know, And I think we’ve all worked probably with people who that approach tends to polarize and, you know, maybe they’re successful for a specific reason and using that. But we can see how that creates a barrier, sometimes to people you know, being willing to embrace the challenge of growth.

[0:18:20 Speaker 1] No, that’s powerful. I hear you saying to as your as your talking, I’m a very visual person. But as I hear you, I’m like, I see this like this education and knowledge piece that you’ve gotta You’ve gotta build with experiences and with reading and taking classes and getting credibility and knowing kind of what you’re doing. But I also see this other bucket over here that’s just as important where it’s communication, it’s being compassionate and having those soft skills that I think you know have kind of taken a back seat. And coaching, obviously, is coming to the forefront more today. But I mean both are equally, you know, you you want to have. Sometimes I guess it’s it’s bad if you’ve got somebody is really good at communicating and having all that, but you don’t want to know what they’re doing right. But it’s just as bad if you know what you’re doing. But you kind of come off arrogant or you can’t connect with somebody you can’t get. You can’t listen really well to what they’re saying, a filter through what they’re trying to explain to you and read people’s body language. There’s a piece there that there’s a connection, because I always like to say to people buy into you as the person first before they buy into your program So you gotta be able to communicate and tell who you are as a person. Your core values before you can have the greatest widget in the world. But nobody may want it if you don’t have that skill set to so so big, big time stuff.

[0:19:39 Speaker 0] Absolutely. So if if you don’t mind if I If I share, I’m pretty sure you mentioned the Warriors in the intro, but that may have been before we jumped on on the podcast itself, but either way, I don’t want to. I don’t want to feel like I’m name dropping, but this is a story I think that perfectly demonstrates the salesmanship, but also the compassion element. And what I felt like made me successful in the consultancy role that I had before. Uh, so when I showed up. It was basically, you know, a service call, if you will. Where you know, I was in the Bay Area to meet with teams that were integrating the force Tech software and technology, and the Golden State Warriors were on the list, right? Like one of, uh, you know, a few high profile programs in the area that we were working with at the time. Mhm. And when I showed up to Golden State like its first, it’s this kind of bat cave facility, Not not the new facility, which is apparently amazing, but that their old facility was in Oakland and it was in this hotel, and it’s like, fifth floor kind of deal is really interesting, But, uh, I showed up there and I had a colleague who Drew Cooper, who actually came along with me, and I was training him to replace me because that was when I was on my way out of for sex. But, um, I showed up and and they were honestly, they were kind of skeptical. They were. They were at that point in time, they were not using it on a regular basis, and so I had to take that and saying, Yeah, you know, And it was It was really kind of a closed off, you know, uh, dialogue with them and saying, Yeah, you know, we don’t know when to do it, how to do it. We don’t even know, you know, like and said, you know, you got in the closet right now, and I was like, Well, you know, can we pull it out? We pull it out and I said, Can I show you guys a couple of things? And so I went into a coaching deal for about 30 minutes, showing them like how I would work on jumping patterns and how I would how I would, you know, like, look at the relationship on that on the force plate and recognize limiting factors. So I go for about 30 minutes of going hard on my coaching mode, and then I was like, So this is that helpful at all? And they were like, What else do you got? And then we probably went for another 30 or 45 minutes, and at the end, they were. They were very grateful, you know. And then, uh, that ended up. That was one of the years they won a championship, and when they won a championship, this was a total class move. They sent me a gift package with gear and with a nice note, and the note that they shared meant so much to me because that’s that’s what my goal was as a practitioner was. They said you helped us understand how to see the force plate with our eyes in what we were doing as coaches and helped us understand better. You know how how those things work together. And so that was You know, like I said, Total class move on their part. And I’m grateful for experiences like that that that can help me articulate that, you know, that that certainly did. I want to say when I started at Trinity, it wasn’t long before Golden State was in town, and within the first couple of months of me taking the job at Trinity and having the Golden State warriors show up and they kind of did a follow up with me and I went over a few more things and talk to them about what they had been trying to do recently to to have that opportunity to to have that happen at our, you know, small liberal arts school was like pretty eye opening for, uh, for our student athletes and in some of our coaches

[0:22:50 Speaker 1] Coach, that’s a big time story. I was like I could even just envision, you know, because I mean, I’ve been in those situations and seen it where, man, When somebody’s got their walls up. I mean, you just you Sometimes you don’t want to get through, But, uh, the fact that I would imagine to just the level of passion that you communicate with and the level of detail you probably went into it just go Wait, wait a minute. Now this guy has got something to say. So called that’s big time story that that’s very applicable. So thanks for sharing that.

[0:23:21 Speaker 0] Absolutely. It’s it’s, uh it was a great experience. I really You know, I I count on that because, of course there was a little bit of a closed off piece, but you can see that if I can get through that barrier with them that they were actually very receptive and open learners, Mike or who is now with the Hawks was their lead at the time And, uh, he was a Bill Hartmann protege. He’s one of those that went, you know, P t, uh, physical therapist as well as a strength conditioning coach, and kind of went through Bill Hartmann at I fast, uh, in his internship. And and And Bill was a tremendous influence. So one of the best compliments he paid me as well as saying that a lot of what I was saying reminded him of what Bill was communicating to him all the time about emergent pathways and etcetera.

[0:24:03 Speaker 1] That’s good stuff. I, um I appreciate it. I kind of want to shift gears just a little bit. Um, let’s let’s kind of go down ground level with you. Now, in this next question, uh, this one is one of my favorites and, uh, just super impressed. And just in all, like how many teams in sports you have and how do you balance all this? So how do you balance coach? How do you balance the aim for an individualized that a driven approach with practicality that is training a couple of 100 athletes across multiple sports. So how would how do you do that, Coach, That’s that’s amazing to me.

[0:24:40 Speaker 0] I think it’s number one is being organized, you know, like having having something where you can line things up and, uh, and execute, you know, and then recognize and be willing to modify and adjust. Like I said, the compassion pieces it’s real on for for ourselves, the practitioners as well. So I think I probably like. Like I said is is I think that led to my initial approach of being a little bit more moderate and how we distributed workloads across and, you know, looking like just kind of standard strength and conditioning. And since then, you know, and not coincidentally, probably linked with covid a little bit, especially

[0:25:19 Speaker 1] in recent

[0:25:19 Speaker 0] history, like we really adjusted workloads based on the monitoring data to be able to, you know, do what we felt like it would optimize adaptation for our student athlete population, you know, like we’re a N C double a Division three program. So obviously the lowest competitive level versus Division one and division, too. But you know, we still have kids who can achieve and can excel and and and having seen, had the chance to see monitoring data across, you know, divisions, etcetera, we have kids who can compete, you know, like largely one of the big differences would be anthropology metrics, uh, their actual build, right? Like, where are jumping athletes and volleyball, for instance? Like I’ve seen, you know, some of the top, uh, collegiate volleyball programs where our jump monitoring is actually really comparable and in some cases, actually better. The problem is that our kids max out at 5 11 6 ft, maybe 61

[0:26:15 Speaker 1] And

[0:26:15 Speaker 0] it doesn’t even start till 61 when you go to the Division one. So when you have someone who’s doing that same jump, but they’ve got an increased capacity based on their height, and that’s something that optimizes that environment for the organism, right? So we basically deal with student athletes who are probably a pretty good athlete, and that’s that’s our experience. We have a competitive program, but structurally, don’t check all those boxes in terms of size bill and maybe athleticism. And that’s going to point to a process that we have to find a way to isolate those key factors and identify them as differentiators and then a line, a process that helps us to attack those things right and to get them to understand that, like I said, with the work example, I use that example all the time. You can come in here and just do work. Just put your head down and get to it like, or we could really work at refining. Like how you move and how you perceive your performance and training environment. You know, like to where, like the competition thing has to come through is that they’ve got to really approach it as their best opportunity to get better in the moment.

[0:27:24 Speaker 1] Good stuff. Good stuff. Uh, what about force plate testing? Can you talk about what? What it is you’re looking at, what four split testing. And then how does that information you see influence the training processes?

[0:27:38 Speaker 0] Yeah, The force plate is a tremendous piece because you’re really getting into I always call it Bruce Lee. If you’re familiar with Bruce Lee, I always call it the one inch punch of sports. Science is force plate testing because it’s about doing more with less, which I mentioned before, and really, when you think about it like okay, Bruce Lee’s one inch punch is truly impressive to knock them in back from a standstill. But when you give them a couple of steps to build up to it, you could absolutely demolish people like bigger, much bigger people than than Bruce Lee. Um, and I think that’s what are our competition environment actually offers, right? Like we know that the outputs that are achieved, especially the higher the level that you go, like what they’ll jump in a competition match versus what they’ll do in a training session is different, right? And there’s times where we see that where, when, when the athletes we actually put on the force plate, you can tell. I always say, like it’s a zoo tiger jungle tiger relationship right where the zoo is, like for show and the jungle is for survival, right? Um, and so the relationship is is if if if they’re on the field and their savage and that’s the way they compete and then they come in the weight room and they’re doing this, you know, the hygiene approach to how we we standardized testing, you know, hands on hips, etcetera, like these protocols that we have to give us a little bit more clarity and consistency, and then all of a sudden they move differently. Well, that to me, that’s a problem. That’s one of the things that I identify identified early as a consultant that would interfere with sport scientists and strength condition coaches, seeing that they were getting the outputs that they believe their athletes were capable of number one being like, Why does this force plate data not match up with what I feel like this athlete can really do? But then secondarily being able to identify, like, you know, what are our steps in the process to be able to do that And that’s where again a force plate, like in, uh, in four Steps software as well as in all of the major software providers, uh, with force plates now would would be able to do is is to be able to identify the eccentric and concentric phases and what that actually consists of, right, which I always tell people forced time curves start out looking like matrix code. You just like see these squiggly lines and you know, I don’t really know what that means, but you’ve given a little bit of focus like we can learn to translate that and find out how to enhance uh, specific aspects. So I started out almost always. My hygiene factor is jump height for I would say, for 90% of of of our testing and then we use on a counter movement jump test, which is the standing in place vertical jump on the counter jump test. We use R S I mod as one of our key metrics, which is reactive. Strength index modified. And people always ask, What’s the modified part? It’s like, Well, because on the on an R s, I it’s meant to be from a drop jump, right? So you touch the ground jump as high as you can The R S Ahmad measures from the start of your movement. So from your stand still to your take off velocity. And so it’s basically, you know, I always say it’s It’s how high, How fast, Right? It’s meters per second. So meters, How high seconds. How fast. So how high? How fast. But I also call it velocity with teeth because that’s all meters per second is is velocity. So that’s a criticism of our cinema as a metric. They’re like, well, you already have your take off velocity you’re like, Yeah, but that’s in the concentric phase. Specifically, this is from the start of their movement to the end, which the time factor could be your primary factor in a specific athlete population. And so you’re going to see that bias, Uh, and where other athletes concentric athletes, especially who have that bias towards the concentric phase. We’ll have that big take off velocity, uh, biggest velocities that you’ll see biggest Jump Heights. But the e centric phase might underperform relative to what we feel. What we will we understand, could actually provide further enhancement to their performance. And so, being able to take that apart and look at the eccentric characteristics and then look at the concentric the kind of the outputs, and and and study the strategy of what occurs in these movements, you know, like it’s it’s it’s invaluable, is what it is, Uh, and it tells you it tells you pretty quickly, you know what kind of ceiling and athletes working, you know, like, for instance, like, one of the things I would say is you have a good athlete who puts out a very average jump, right? Like one of the NBA teams that I was involved in testing. They had their six best jumper on the roster was in the NBA dunk contest the the year before. So I remember looking at it, and being like, this is this is nonsense. This guy is one of the best jumpers in the world, right? But that goes back to the zoo Tiger Jungle Tiger thing where it’s like he’s like on the court. He’s a savage. He understands, I said. But in the weight room, the underlying factor was 10 and apathy, right? Like he’s got knee pain all the time. So all of a sudden he’s in the weight room, the environment is different and this becomes more threatening to him now. And so he undermines. Like, what would be a true You know what I would count as an authentic counter jump effort, Uh, and biases towards these limited knee angles that just don’t don’t allow us to optimize force production. Uh, especially when you’re when you’re you’re basically glued to the floor right when your feet are in place. I realized that’s kind of a mouthful at this point where I’m at. But, um, it put some important constraints on it, right. And so, uh, in that case, the dialogue was, you know, like, well, you gotta You gotta find a way to get to the technical side with them, and and some of that becomes the load absorption phase. The e centric phase is teaching them how to achieve specific positions that are not always necessary to every athlete. Some athletes are going to be more successful with with more limited of, uh, of the counter movement. And some athletes really have to bury it to be able to jump higher and faster. Uh, but whenever you need to make a change there to try to find more, that that might be the process that we point to. And that was what we did with, uh, with that athletes specifically

[0:33:59 Speaker 1] could stop. So going, still talking about the force decks, the force plates. I’m sorry. Um, how do you explain the value of, like, a force plate or forced deck to a population like a sport like swimming, where the test isn’t as easily comparable to the demands of the sport? Like a like a volleyball? How did you How did you do that, Coach,

[0:34:21 Speaker 0] I always break it down. Stephen Placek is someone who who’s on the scientific side. I think his lens into the training process is probably the one that offers me the most, the most clarity, and he always breaks it down. As there’s mechanics, there’s energetic. And then there’s the coordination of those efforts that should triangle right. And he had a series of blog post called Triangulating on the Target and maybe early mid two thousands. But Stephen, plus the energetic mechanics and coordination. That’s basically what you’re looking at while I’m on the on the force plate side of things. You’re largely looking at the mechanics piece, right? Unless you’ve got some conditioning tests you might be able to do. Matt Jordan has one. That’s a jump test that you do. Continuous jumps like a jump every four seconds for a minute, I think is what it is. But I’ve never applied that intervention, but most of the time we’re dealing primarily with the mechanics piece, right? The problem with the force plate is that you don’t have cinematics, you don’t have their motion. So you’re making some assumptions on what they’re doing, you know, from joint to joint and and how that contributes to their performance. Um, but there are certainly, I think, I think we would recognize that their their strategic differences and athletes especially specific to to certain sports that can put a real ceiling on what they’re able to do, as well as increase the potential for for tendon issues and for injury issues and negatively impact, uh, resilience and their overall readiness.

[0:35:54 Speaker 1] That makes sense. Just let’s listen to you. The the visual I get. I saw like, you see, like a basketball or a volleyball player or courts for that. I mean, they’re really efficient at jumping. They’ve been jumping for 10, 12 years versus, like a swimmer who, you know, they’ll get both athletes on the fourth plate, right? But like you said, the cinematics like that swimmer, who knows what they could round their back, you know, not even been their hips, you know when they jump. So like you said, you can make those assumptions. It really is really kind of missing on the how you’re just looking at the analysis of that data, I would imagine so,

[0:36:33 Speaker 0] Yeah, I agree. I think, uh, I think especially with swimming, which I kind of neglected to to to isolate that one. But I think I use more of a global example. But with with swimming, it is interesting because I think that there are these huge positives and negatives to to how those things relate, right. And it’s it’s It’s where you know, when when when I talk about things and, you know, like I don’t want them to perceive them as being different things, but ultimately our technique and how we achieve those things like I’m not enabling all of those postures that they use in their swimming in the weight room, right? Like I I have a technical model that I work from. That I think covers squatting and hinging proficiency in how we load the lower body and how we maintain integrity of the spine like and and that’s that’s pretty well, uh, well defined for me and the and the work that I’ve done. Uh, but then, seeing how that interacts where you know, there are going to be people who are just they’re never going to put it fully together on the force plate. But if you’re trying to put the whole piece together by looking at a force plate with a swimmer that I mean, that’s an issue in itself, which is never something that I would try to communicate that we’re trying to do. It’s merely feedback on. They’re dry land training, which is a huge percentage of what they because they can’t do everything in the pool. I know some coaches try, but you’re right. Yeah,

[0:37:57 Speaker 1] Coach. Kind of a question to kind of tie in some of that. So put on your string coach hat for a moment. You got your sports science. You’ve got your data. You’ve done some testing. How would you practically take some of what you The data you collected on a different athletes say, like compare like a soccer player versus, Like a court giving like a field athlete like lacrosse or soccer or a football versus, like a court sport.

[0:38:27 Speaker 0] How

[0:38:28 Speaker 1] would you change? What would that look like in the weight room on how you change? Whether it be exercise selection, maybe speak to one on you? Maybe you want to change some adaptation qualities and try to enhance different, uh, ways they move or whatever is more explosive, more endurance with with the field sport, How would you address fatigue? Maybe those some of those kind of, uh, different areas. How would you do that in the weight room, Coach?

[0:38:53 Speaker 0] Yeah. So if, like, we can use a court support example because that one comes with with certain characteristics, right? When when they’re on a court, it tends to have an elevated. Something is elevated about the competition, right? And volleyball. It’s a net. And basketball, it’s the hoop right? That immediately is going to shift attentional focus to being up right? So I always tell people jumping athletes don’t land, they fall. And if the ground wasn’t there, they just keep on falling. So their landings are not landings. They’re actually they’re just collapsing into the ground. And if you do that often enough, you have the recipe for injury. Right? So one of the things about that is we have the ability in our strength, condition, practice to optimize how they land in flex right, which most of us would start with something like a box jump and landing in their perfect position. Right. And that’s that’s the starting point, what I call the hygiene factor. But the real differentiator is going to be you know, how do they handle length and rotation, right? Like, can they rotate and land? Can they do it on one leg? Can they do it with more velocity? Right. That’s one of the things that a movement like snap Downs, I think brings us to is that it gives us a narrow window that we can look at. You know how quickly they can go from from up to down, but also the idea that they’re actually because they can do that in such a short time period. What I what? I always tell our athletes like, for instance, if you just jumped 30 inches on the volleyball court, but your attention capacity is up. What, you’re going to have a more narrow window to be able to provide, uh, and optimize landing mechanics, right? So

[0:40:28 Speaker 1] for me,

[0:40:29 Speaker 0] that lens becomes it’s kind of the example that I’ve used is, uh, is like a plane landing on a long runway like, let’s say, a big commercial jet just coming. It’s got plenty of runway compared to a jet on an aircraft carrier, right where, like the jets coming in, it’s a short runway and they’ve got to nail it coming in. There’s not a lot of margin for error, and that’s exactly what jumping and competition is. Well, because they’re going to land and what I would call like. There’s there’s, like, kind of the stiff landing, which is more closer to the to the impact, you know, just kind of just hitting the ground, uh, falling, if you will. And then there’s the There’s the deceleration or the breaking landing, where they’re actually able to flex their body and use multiple joints to be able to reduce that load across their whole system. So between those two things is where your opportunity is, you know? So like I said is is I think all of us understand that you have to start with optimizing, but you’ve got to move quickly into like, Okay, how do I get this to be more relevant at the actual angles that are associated with their sports? So that’s kind of the general and specific relationship, and with court athletes, we see that I mentioned tenant apathy before. That’s a that’s a huge issue in the n B A. It’s it’s, uh and of course, it’s going to be if it affects them it’s going to affect everybody developmentally, especially. You’re taller, longer kids, um, and a lot of them they don’t have the ability to flex well. And that and that’s that’s not just something that negatively, negatively impacts their their, uh, their lifting. It also has the potential to negatively impact their jump performance. Where, how they find stability. You know, one of one of my great colleagues and, uh, it’s in the NBA right now, Chris Chase at Memphis Grizzlies. He he always said, he said, with their guys understanding the jump in the strategic differences, he said The way they move around the court is like they’re just trying to stop from falling all the time, you know? So even moving around the court like that is just it’s just this constant threat condition right where teaching them how to actually use, you know, stability to drive mobility in the appropriate ways could actually take a lot of effort. Right

[0:42:50 Speaker 1] now, I love I love that your analogies and deceiving the practicality of, you know, like the court sport. I mean, I totally agree. I mean, for years when I was working with core sports, especially volleyball, everybody wanna know how high you can

[0:43:04 Speaker 0] jump. And

[0:43:05 Speaker 1] then the more I started working with them, like I’m not worried about how high they jump. I’m wondering about how they land, you know, that’s where the danger is, where you could lose somebody. So that’s a That’s a great insight. So thank you for sharing that coach.

[0:43:18 Speaker 0] Yeah. No, absolutely. I appreciate the opportunity.

[0:43:21 Speaker 1] Yeah, I have a couple questions left here as we kind of wrap up the show, but just some some fun ones here, Coach. Why? What is your Why Why do you do what you do? Because you’re obviously you’re very man. You’re very knowledgeable. You just come off your great guy. I would imagine the kids and athletes and coaches are drawn to you. But, like, why do you do what you do, Coach? What is it?

[0:43:42 Speaker 0] You know, uh, it’s kind of a It’s actually kind of a personal thing and challenging. I actually I had a job opportunity with I’ll just say a big time college program, you know, a few years back. And, uh, that was kind of like what it came down to in my and and what I honestly believe led to me receiving the offer that I did. Um, was he asked, He said, Hey, at your core, Daniel Martinez, Who is he and why? And I basically said, you know, like, I have a complicated relationship with my dad. Uh, I always tell people my dad was, uh if you if you remember the movie full metal jacket,

[0:44:19 Speaker 1] love that movie. Yeah.

[0:44:21 Speaker 0] So my dad So I always tell people my dad would have been that drill sergeants boss. So my dad was the series chief drill instructor at Paris Island. And so I grew up in a Marine Corps household, right? And my dad took his job really? Seriously. Was very passionate. Uh, he was in Desert Storm and in the war. Um, and because of that, that brought some negative effects, right? Like he had some coping issues on the back end of that. And so it really it was at a a pivotal point in my life because it was at the point where I was becoming a young man and I really lacked a role model in that way. Due to the conflicts and the things that he had to work through as an individual And so I I That wasn’t my experience of even though he was that kind of influential person with his work. I didn’t get to experience that as his son. Uh, and that’s kind of what drives me as a as a father now is to provide that consistency is to make sure that I approach things. I just I wouldn’t want to be embarrassed. That’s probably Central to it is just like I want to take pride in what we do and, you know, it’s being division of three. It’s pretty easy for people just to, you know, kind of, you know, write us off as it were and think like, Well, you know, like the athletes, their etcetera, etcetera. And I’m like, if you can’t if you can’t show up and make a difference where we are, I don’t know if you have, if you really have the ability to do that anywhere else. So uh like like, that’s something that I feel really, positively about. I take a lot of pride in the fact that, like our student athletes do work hard the way that they do. Uh, and I think you know that that willingness to commit to that with them, I think is what helps to keep me passionate about it.

[0:46:14 Speaker 1] Yeah, that’s good. That’s a great story about your dad. And, um I never had any parents or my mom was in the Army, but she was never in a war like that. So I can’t imagine having a dad had to go through that. So we appreciate your your dad service, but thank you for being open and sharing that. I know. Uh, I know I had some some early on, uh, growing up as a young young, my son. My family was a broken family very early on, and that’s definitely a big part of who we are. Sometimes sometimes our biggest pains become the promises that we are. That kind of drives us to be who we are. And I’m you know, I don’t know. I’m like you. I kind of see the positives in it, you know, to try to to try to be that person in the future. So I appreciate you sharing it.

[0:46:59 Speaker 0] I agree with you. I think that there’s a gratitude that comes with the opportunity to have that relationship. And you get to be that person in that case, you know, like where what you experienced was, you know, like you said, broken and, you know, dysfunctional potentially, uh, but where it took you and where you chose to go with that, right, Like, it’s it’s I’ve had people, you know, personally been like, Well, you know, you could have just as easily gone the other direction and in my head, that was just There is no way There is no possibility that I would have I would have been, you know, like, uh, my dad largely, I would say, ruled with an iron fist, Right, as you would expect, Uh, where for me, Like when I talk about, you know, compassion. And when I talk about, you know, connection and things like that, like that’s That’s probably the thing that I come that has to come first, and that affects, you know, my my my multiple roles as an influencer, uh, with my kids especially. And so it’s taught me patience. A lot of patients to be able to like I I know I can get the result that I need from the discipline side with my kids. But what I don’t know is is, or what I don’t want to know is what the cost of that is, right. Like and I want what I want to do is reduce the cost while teaching my kids to be disciplined and to be passionate and to and to be, you know, joyful kids,

[0:48:25 Speaker 1] powerful stuff. Coach. Appreciate it. I got a one more fun question. I saw your, uh, Big Rocky. You liked the movie Rocky and I’m I’m a big Rocky movie and can watch I still want to. Come on, I’ll just watch them.

[0:48:39 Speaker 0] What’s

[0:48:39 Speaker 1] what’s your favorite? Rocky, which won?

[0:48:42 Speaker 0] No, it’s not even a question. It’s They’re all great. Book hockey four is Rocky. Four is number one for me. Like 100% like the pinnacle, right? Absolutely. What’s

[0:48:55 Speaker 1] what’s your favorite part about that with Coach? What is it?

[0:48:58 Speaker 0] I love that he has to. He has to leave. It’s kind of like it really is. It’s probably, you know, the hero’s journey as Joseph Campbell thing, but it’s it’s a hero’s journey. He has to go away from home, and he has to go into this dark place and fight this like monstrous being, Um and he has to do that. Knowing that this monster has destroyed before, right, Like one of my favorite. You just kind of play off of that. One of my favorite poems is are not poem. It’s, uh, from a speech from Teddy Roosevelt Is man in the arena? But what I tell people a lot is like Sometimes the man in the arena dies there, you know, like so it’s It’s not all fun, you know, like Apollo died, you know, like and so those those are.

[0:49:39 Speaker 1] That’s

[0:49:40 Speaker 0] right. Those are some of it. Yeah, some real cost to this.

[0:49:45 Speaker 1] That’s awesome. That’s good stuff. Well, cool. Any any resources you got for the listener today myself? Any books, any courses, anything comes to mind. What would you recommend for his coach?

[0:49:56 Speaker 0] Yeah, I mentioned Matt Jordan before Matt Jordan’s his his kind of Jordan strength process that he has. It’s not a certification. I don’t think I don’t believe so, But the modules that he provides are you know, they’re very scientifically rigorous. That’s something I truly appreciate about Matt and being someone who’s done some research to understand the detail that you need to have as a practitioner to be able to be that surgical. That sniper, Um, I have a ton of respect for Matt as a practitioner. Doc Self is someone who threw Edith Cowan’s program, like who became a mentor and and tremendous friend like somebody who I just you know, like, uh, I’d go to battle with any day and, uh, but is a tremendous, uh, with respect something that I didn’t speak much on but with agility, change of direction, uh, with those characteristics, like somebody who, you know has really taken that apart and put it all back together again in a way that makes us all better and what we are able to achieve better, I would say, Doc saves material is top notch. Jeremy Shepherd is someone who his PhD work through. I believe it was Edith Cowan, uh, was volleyball specific largely and through the Australians to the sport dealing with any elite athlete population. And that was kind of the thing that, you know, I think initially ignited a passion for me, especially with volleyball. But beyond that and and meeting and spending time with and and being able to count, uh, there as a as a mentor now is like it’s It’s more meaningful now than it’s ever been is to be able to say that like, I have so much respect for who he is as a man and father and the way that he approaches his work. That’s, you know, I’m really just trying to model. You know, those people, largely.

[0:51:38 Speaker 1] Coach. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I personally met Doc Self briefly and then Coach Jeremy Shepherd. I’ve had the privilege of just busy with him as well. So yet to, uh, to outstanding individuals. And the other one was Matt Jordan. You said

[0:51:54 Speaker 0] Yes, sir. Definitely.

[0:51:55 Speaker 1] Be looking him up. So thank you for sharing that those resources, coach, we’re kind of at the end of the show. Is there? Our listeners want to reach out, connect with you. Kind of read more about you, learn from you. What’s the best way to connect with your coach? Martinez?

[0:52:09 Speaker 0] I’m one of those. I’m not on facebook. I’m on Twitter and instagram. Um, it’s different for each one with Twitter It’s at in Theo’s athletic and Theo’s E N T h E o s athletic and my, uh my Twitter handle. I’m sorry. My instagram handle is Daniel Martinez, M s, C s C s kind of the standard, uh, strength coach language that all of my student athletes are like. They don’t understand. What? What? The moon. Who’s the Miss CSC s? What’s that mean? Yeah, but, uh oh. Those are the handles with with those respective platforms. Besides that, I’m pretty excessive. You can find my information on the Trinity University athletics website, and I’m I’m accessible. Uh, certainly not someone who’s who’s trying to keep any secrets from anybody. I I find that if someone wants to get better, there’s nothing you can do to stop them. So hopefully they can help you as well. And if someone doesn’t want to get better than you know, like helping them offering out, you know, whatever nuggets or advice that you might offer is, uh, it doesn’t cost you anything for that.

[0:53:15 Speaker 1] Well, Coach, we appreciate, uh, not just your time, but your

[0:53:18 Speaker 0] expertise and want

[0:53:20 Speaker 1] anything. The passion and, uh, that you bring to this profession. Um, it’s guys like you could definitely make us all better. So we appreciate the work you’re doing. And Trinity you might be a Trinity is smaller school but coach your That’s a big time place. You’ve made the big time. So kudos to you and keep changing lives and impacting people. I know. I I’m very thankful we will connect today, so thank you, Coach. It’s been an honor to have you on the show.

[0:53:48 Speaker 0] Thank you for the opportunity, Donny. Like I have a ton of respect for, for for you and for the program you guys have at Texas and the work that you’re doing with, you know, Travis Lantus, who’s a who’s a tremendous practitioner friend. Uh, you got to love a sport. Scientists whose twitter handle this platform warrior, you know, like that’s going to the weightlifting. I love that. Yeah, we have that shared peace in our in our background as well, but, uh, yeah, like I I I appreciate what you guys do and what it does for our field and how you’re using your platform here with the podcast. So I’m I’m grateful to be a guest.

[0:54:24 Speaker 1] Good stuff. Well, Coach, we appreciate it. Well, that’s it. On the team behind the team podcast and Coach Martinez, Coach Daniel Martinez is the man. He is definitely a rock star. Uh, coach. People don’t know about you. They will soon. So just keep doing your thing. Keep going big. Make your debt in the universe. We know you will. We appreciate you. That’s it. We We hope everybody has a great, great month and we’ll catch you on the flip side. Next episode. Take care. Thanks so much for tuning in and listening to this episode of the team behind the team podcast for future episodes go to iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast or stitcher. We definitely want to keep having great guests on the show in great content. So if you have a moment, please go to iTunes, leave a rating and review and let us know how we’re doing. I’m Donny made. And thanks so much for tuning in.

[0:55:23 Speaker 0] Yeah,

[0:55:26 Speaker 1] Mhm. Mm