E12 | Zach Even-Esh: Strength & Conditioning

[0:00:01 Speaker 0] Welcome to the team behind the team podcast. I am your host, Dani May. This is the monthly show focused on building conversations around the team based model approach to ethics, performance, strength, conditioning, sports, medicine, sports, science, mental health and wellness and sports nutrition. Hello, and welcome back to the team behind the team podcast. I’m your host, Dani made. And man old man, have we got a guest today that I am so excited for everybody here? If you’ve never met, our guests will get to him in just a second. But before that, Coach Mike Hanson, the co host, is back in the house today. Coach, say what’s up to him today? Everybody happy to be back. Go change. How you been doing? You doing all right, brother? [0:00:51 Speaker 1] Doing good? A zoo were just talking about. Finally got back into the gym yesterday. Got to coach for the first time since Kobe began outside of some postgraduates throughout Kobe. But, um, doing really well, given the circumstances and just happy to be back with athletes, [0:01:08 Speaker 0] that’s good stuff. Well, Coach, thanks for joining us on the podcast again. Thank you. Yes, sir. And then let me do a quick introduction of our special guest. And if you before I get into this, I want to give a little history. So our guest, the first time I met and saw and heard him so kind of those three things within 2013 at a hammer string clinic. And, uh so I’ve never heard of our guests. And when I first heard, and so he just I was captivated, and I’m a college trained coach. And man, I got to hear this guy speak. I said, Man, I gotta connect. This guy just seems like he’s not a great coach, but authentic. He cares. He Israel Coach Zach Evidence. Welcome to the show. Thank you for making time, Coach. I’m [0:01:53 Speaker 2] excited. I love Texas, man, but that you know, all the pump up you gave me. Let’s go. I like I like the pressure. So I’m okay with that. All those compliments. I’m gonna I’m gonna hold the line. [0:02:05 Speaker 0] That’s awesome, Coach. Hey, Thank you for I know you got crazy schedule, like all of us right now in this pandemic and your your fight That kind of keep your head above water like this. So thank you for making time to be on the show. My pleasure. You know, just real quick when I when I met you coach again, Just here in your story. You know, you talked about that first, that first clinic I heard you speak out about just all the injuries and the different types of training that just, you know, that really just stuck with me because that coming from college and being a college sports myself, you deal with a lot of injuries. And to hear you talk about that in a way that was refreshing and have application and different. Just a different lens toe to evaluate the athlete. Kind of was at the time, this was like, seven years ago. That was all starting to come on the scene. I feel like you were kind of ahead of the game a little bit, but that’s where it’s at today. That’s what this podcast is about. A lot of time. Just keeping athletes health healthy. So been [0:03:02 Speaker 2] 20. Was that New Jersey coach? Yeah, I I think that was 2010. Was it at Kean University? [0:03:11 Speaker 0] Yeah. So what? It’s been 10 years. [0:03:13 Speaker 2] I think that was 2010. Because It definitely wasn’t 2013 because that was right before I went to Lee, I think, 10 years ago. [0:03:23 Speaker 0] That’s right, Coach. Thanks again. If you everybody kind of your name everybody, the underground strength coach. So that’s kind of what he goes by if you Google him. So if you look him up, you gotta check him out. So, um, let’s kick off the show coach, and I’m gonna pass it over to you kick us off coach for [0:03:40 Speaker 1] sure. Zack, if it’s okay, we’re gonna just jump right into it on. I think audience, or rather, your bio will start to surface a za result of some of our questions. But something about you that our listeners will certainly pick up on pretty quickly is how energetic and passionate you are about what you do. And I mean, we’ve spoken to you before with our staff. You’re very driven, very proactive as a coach s. Oh, my question is, where does that drive stem from? And how do you continue to fuel your fire over the course of your career? [0:04:18 Speaker 2] Yeah, when I kind of get that question or variations of that question. If it brings me back to like my kind of middle teenage years. You know, I started training at age 13, but then, by the time I was like 15 or so and joined our local gym, I still remember always organizing training partners and training groups. And then people would say, Man, I love training with Zack. Zack gets me going and I still recall one of those groups. It was a bunch of like local guys. We all grew up together. They one of the kids. His name was Jimmy. He says to me he had his license, so I remember he would drive us. He’s like, I can’t go to the gym without you. He’s like, you get, He’s like, you get me going, You get this group going. He’s like, I went with Steve and he’s like it was just not. He’s like, there’s no energy. And so I remember kind of being the fire in every group and the and the group always counted on before and I didn’t see like I wasn’t like, Oh, somebody else has to do this. I was just fired up. I fell in love with training and then when I get on the weight room floor. I still have that fire that I did as a kid. Except now, you know, I have a deeper understanding of why I’m doing this. You know, in my early years of coaching the fire waas helping these athletes dominate and win and just I was so intense. You know, in my mid twenties late twenties, I actually didn’t get really into strengthened condition until my late twenties. I think I may have been 27 or 28. I had toward my a c l. And so I was kind of late to the game, you know, with regards to strength and conditioning. I didn’t have internship or anything like that. It was all private. And so those early years, that fire was honestly, it was a lot of kind of my inner demons, you know, my lack of success and athletics, and then all of a sudden, finding this these better methods of training. I was excited toe share it with other athletes so they didn’t have to lose the way I did. And now everything was kind of about winning and putting points on the scoreboard. But as I got older, you know my philosophy and I guess definition of winning completely changed. And now I look mawr of like strength and conditioning is a vehicle to help people improve at life in anything at life. And being a dad, I always say, has been the big catalyst to my change and coaching because I started realizing, you know, how would I want my own son or daughter to be coached? Do I only want them to be, you know, coached, you know, to win, to get points on the board? Or do I want my kids to feel like this Coach cares about him and he’s going to talk to my son or daughter about Hey, listen, it is not acceptable for you, toe. You might hit the most home runs on this team, but you can’t go. You know, if I speak to your teachers and they’re not a fan of you because you’re disrespectful and you’re lazy and you’re rude, I don’t care how many home runs you hit. You’re not a good person, you know. So now I look at coaching mawr of this kind of life mentor ship, and I blend it all together, and I feel like we’ve had more success because of that, you know, evolution that I’ve gone through as a father and a coach. And sometimes as a coach you are the father, you know, and for the feed. You know, for the our lady coaches or female coaches. They are the mother. They become the mother. And so you become this mentor slash parent figure, and now things take on a whole new role. And so that’s why I also I think, in coaching and training like I don’t get too caught up in the method of training or the software or the spreadsheet, and this and that I get more focused on. What kind of change can I help happen for this young individual? And, you know, for the people listening out there if their coaches or trainers who work with adults look, sometimes those adults in their thirties forties fifties, they haven’t had anybody to mentor them, so they might be in their forties. But they might still have that kind of insecure insecurities that they had at age 16, because nobody taught them strength beyond you know, the weight on the bar. And so now I look at training as a much deeper thing, and that inspires me. That gives me energy. And and, uh, I like the pressure of putting it on my shoulders and saying, This is a heavy duty responsibility. Somebody, a mom, a dad, you know, a guardian, an adult figure in this person’s life just invested in me, whether it’s their time, their finances, their energy to do something and change this person’s life. And so I look at it much differently. You know, my early years were the hype was about winning titles. Now I love Listen, I love winning and I hate losing. But I also love when I see the athlete do great things beyond athletics, you know, eventually athletics comes to an end in your own competitive, you know, career. But now how does that apply to their life? So I’m always kind of finding motivation and fire it. It’s everywhere. I don’t really complicated, but I do listen to what’s in my heart. Not to say my way is better than somebody else’s way. You know, we we evolve, and hopefully the coaches out there are evolving as well. [0:10:09 Speaker 1] For sure, I’m sorry. I’m gonna take the mic or keep the mic here. Donny s. So on that note, you kind of talked about how you’re coaching. Or maybe your view of winning is what I think you said has changed or shifted. You talked about kind of how you coach kids has shifted eso similarly like over the last 15, 10 and even five years. Um, there’s definitely been a noticeable social cultural shift, both in society, but also in our realm. As performance coach is right, there’s been, what seemingly more specialization? Um, seemingly more and more content coming out. Um, there’s definitely been a huge problem. Um, I should say, or Social Media has become more prevalent. Excuse me. Eso. I guess what I’m wondering is, how has working with high school or even college age athletes? How has that changed? How have athletes changed over the last again? 15, 10, 5 years? And again, you spoke to it a little bit, But could you also go in depth and how your coaching has changed with working with the modern day athlete? [0:11:17 Speaker 2] Yeah. Through the years, I’ve definitely found ways to individualized within the group, whether it’s individualizing, a little bit of the training, whether it’s individualizing the way they communicate with each kid differently because of the different personality traits within the same group. Whereas in those early years it’s kind of like a it was like, you know, a blanket or a umbrella of this is what we’re doing today. I had, of course, progressions and regressions if you couldn’t do that correctly. But my, you know, breath Bartholomew was very big on this. You know, the art of coaching my language and my style of communication didn’t change too much for the individual kids. And then I started learning how you know kids within the same group in the same sport, from the same school university team. So on there’s gonna be variations and individual differences in those groups because of their past experiences and because of their coaching experiences and how they were coached, how they were raised by parents. You know, what is their environment? Where did they come from? Did they come from inner city where it was very tough? Or did they come from super affluent suburbs where you know the refrigerator’s always full and there’s always, you know, there’s no violence around them? It’s like so all of these things really I kinda It’s like a soup. You know, there’s so many things going on, but you got to make it, you know, taste good. And so that has certainly just experience in general has gotten me better. Have the kids changed. You know, sometimes we hear that kids are different than you see somebody posting a mean Oh, kids air not different. Parents are different in the way they raise them. Look, everything is different. We re, you know, parents are different, kids air different. The environment is different. The way we consume information is different. The amount of information consumed is completely different than it was 5, 10 and especially 15 years ago. And so all those things are taken into consideration, and I’m sure things are going to continue to evolve. And that’s why, as a coach, you have to be very much a chameleon. You’ve got to be ready to change. And like, for example, you guys air in Texas promise. I guarantee you that the kids that were maybe born and raised in Texas they’ve probably got some different personality traits that have some commonalities compared to kids that might be coming from, Let’s say, new Jersey and look, even in New Jersey. I have two gyms with one gym in North Jersey. The kids have a different personality trait, as do the parents. And then I have one down by the beach. This is and then this is a different kind of personality traits, and the kids have kind of a different work ethic, and it’s interesting. You’re like, Man, I wouldn’t imagine that, you know, 50 minutes away, there’s gonna be these differences. But in New Jersey, I always say, 15 minutes to the richest parts of the country, 15 minutes to the beach, 15 minutes toe like the woods and 15 minutes to the hood like you could go down it everywhere and experience so much differences all within this small radius. And so, as a coach, it’s not enough to be a great technician. It’s not enough to be great at teaching weightlifting or great at, you know, pulling the data from this force plate and applying it because that’s really like a small aspect. Your have to be able if these, if these kids or if you’re working with adults, if the people you’re working with don’t trust you and don’t feel like you care, You’re gonna lose them. And, you know, Michael, your ah, little bit younger than Coach Donnie and I. But Coach Donnie A couple of months ago, maybe a year ago, I interviewed coach Johnny Parker, who had, you know, spent time from the high school to the colleges to the NFL, and he said this great quote. He probably had shared it, you know, decades before. But he said, Good coaches, Coach waits, great coaches, coach people. And to me, that’s yeah, that’s huge. And look, when Coach Parker was coaching in the NFL, you know, just looking at his pictures. He didn’t look like he was some world record power lifter or he didn’t have, ah, background as a pro athlete. But you know what? He cared about those athletes, and that’s why you would hear stories about him showing up at 5:30 a.m. And the guys would be stretching in the parking lot before he even got there. They probably they get that feeling like, Oh, man, Coach cares about me so much, I can’t let him down, and then I let myself down, somebody who could really get into the heart of the athletes that you’re working with. That’s really I feel like when we get into the epitome of coaching, you know, the other stuff. It doesn’t blow my mind as much. You know, some people get really hyped up on like this. I’m doing conjugated I’m doing, you know, the tier system. I’m doing the high, low method. Um, you know, I’m doing this. I’m doing that. I’m doing, We’re doing eccentrics above. Ah, try physic. I’ve seen kids come from all of that stuff, and, you know, I found a lot of times some of the best athletes come from the less fancy, um, facilities and the very basic training programs I posted on instagram a few days ago. Ah, guy was in. Um, I’ll have to pull it up. I think he was in Dagestan, which is Russia, and he posted a video of their of their gym. Their gym is out on concrete slab, but their world champion, they they have I think that might be the area that produces the most world champions and Olympic medalists and wrestling. They’re they’re quote unquote weight room, looked like a prison yard and, you know they don’t have the fancy equipment we have access to. But their coaches are very chameleon like their coaches have an art form to them. And so I always look at kind of all these factors that we think make these big differences. Then you see somebody come from, you know, horrible conditions yet producing Olympians. [0:18:12 Speaker 0] Yeah. Quick story is a good point. I think. You know, you made me think Our men’s tennis team here, the they just got a new facility a couple of years ago, But prior to that there facility that they have for 32 years was completely leveled. Hospital bought that land and they had to train. Coach, this was out for for Texas. We were out in the mural courts. I’ll never forget. The head cracks all in the payment. The boys were They were locking out of like, a little trailer, and it was I mean it for like, a big college. That’s what they had to train out of for four years. And I’ll never forget warming them up out there. Coach Hansen. Uh, there’s been several years now. The fence fell off the post onto the onto the courts. That’s like, What is going on, man e was like, we’re gonna get We’re gonna get injured out here just warming up, And, uh, I’ll never forget that, you know, t to your point, deprivation is a motivator. Sometimes when you don’t have the resource is and you don’t have, you have to be creative. And then if you really want to get good at what you do, you’re gonna find time, you’re gonna make space, and you’re gonna find a way to get it done. And so I think I agree with. I think sometimes you can It could be too much kind of sitting there, and then you take it for granted and you don’t train this hard in the in. The kid over here that does it maybe comes from a broken family, or he’s got big dreams and you don’t have the facilities out working at other kids. But he’s talented, too, right? And when you meet him up, man, he’s got he’s got a little, you know, not to be too cliche, but he’s got a lot of the tiger Eric, Coach, I don’t know. [0:19:53 Speaker 2] Listen, it’s the truth when you come from everything so fancy and so perfect you get spoiled, that’s the truth. And I always go back to that coach with. When Apollo takes Rocky back to the tough Jim and, uh, you know Mickey, Mickey told him. He said, The worst thing that could happen to a fighter is you get civilized. And so, look, I love seeing these universities blowing up. Of course, it helps recruiting, but it’s great to see kids just being some of these kids. You know, whether it’s football, tennis, my daughter plays tennis. Tennis is I never knew how intense it is, you know, oftentimes they’re training twice a day. My daughter in the summer. 8 a.m. to 12 30. No break 4.5 hours of just going in Florida. They trained two hours in the morning, two hours again in the afternoon. They’re doing double sessions, and so toe have a beautiful facility that must feel good for that. Must feel good for the kids. But sometimes that comfort is a negative. It just becomes It’s so perfect. It’s so nice. Well, what is sports is really about all the imperfections. Sports is about kind of how things don’t go your way, and then how do you show up when the cards are not in your favor? And so, you know, hearing that story A kid I used to coach, he started in high school. Then he went to community college. Then he went to college. And then he became a Division one strength coach. And he’s been in some of the big schools, Um, power five schools. And then, like two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, he left one of those big schools and went to, Ah, small university does track. He’s the he’s the jumps coach and strength coach, and he told me they don’t have a track, so they go down to, like, you know, a park that’s in the city, and he’s like, That’s where we trained and he’s like our weight room. He’s like It reminds me of the original underground. He’s like there’s these heavy dumbbells upto 1 50. He’s like it’s crowded. He’s like, it’s perfect. He’s like because these kids really wanna work and you know, his whole like his journey into being a strength coach. When I look at what he did as an athlete when he was at community college, he joined the track team so he can learn how to sprint to get better at football. Then, when he got to the four year college, he joined the football team. He played football his senior year in high school, but he would like he was so hungry. Toe learn. And then when he got into strength and conditioning, he, you know, went and got mentored by, you know, like Bush connected her and just these great guys. But he would fly across the country and just take his last dollar to get mentored. And that hunger comes because he grew up with not a whole lot. He was. He was hungry for success. You know what my buddy Joe Descente talks about that movie Cinderella man fighting for milk when you’re who’s fighting for milk? You know what I’m saying? Through right [0:23:12 Speaker 1] to your To your point coach we’ve talked about is a staff even here in Texas that it’s awesome that we’re able to provide these, you know, first class facilities way have a great budget where we can get just about anything that we think we need for our athletes. But there’s definitely that trade off, right? It’s you know, if you keep on baby spoon spoon Fed is not the word. But if you keep spoon feeding athletes, um, you do lose that drive. I think it’s just like I said, Um, those athletes who come from nothing they have something to fight for. They’ve worked through adversity. And at the end of the day, like you said, that’s that’s what sport comes down Thio when you’re down or when it’s tied late, you know where you drawing that fire from? On dso We have talked about that. Being at Texas, where we are lucky in a lot of sense, is, um to have the environment that we have. But I even spoke to my friend, who is the director of 1000 yesterday and we were talking about our different budgets, and I was like, Hey, man, I have so much more respect for you as a coach, and I bet your athletes even appreciate it more for the amount of teams and athletes that you have to filter through that weight room. That’s half our size, with half the equipment with maybe double to schedule, because even at Texas, I think we have 20 sports total between five weight rooms. Um, and sometimes we get caught up with ourselves kind of well, who’s training when and how much overlap is There is like we face nothing compared to a lot of high schools called, um, some lower tier colleges with regards to their budgets. And so I just I think that’s a great point. Two younger coaches to who are coming up is is I’ve heard it before. It’s not about necessarily the logo that you’re going after its thes coaches, who have experienced at 1000 organizing that and then switching your menu of exercise selection to still fit the needs of the athlete. You know, despite those circumstances, e mean, that’s a lot harder and takes a lot more creativity than what I have to do here in Texas with two teams. [0:25:13 Speaker 2] Yeah, and look, it may and but like you said to you, get it. Look in strength and conditioning. Sometimes we’re lucky. Sometimes we land, you know, a better job in a better place with more money. It is it is what it is. You know, I’d say Certainly my consumption. He asked me a great question. A couple weeks ago, I said What could you do better? And I didn’t. I kind of was thinking of, like, training and, you know, you know, the technical aspect of things. And then I just started realizing, like, Man, I could work less. That’s what would make me better. And so sometimes, being in these schools maybe like your buddy of 1000. I don’t know how many teams he’s coaching, but when you’re coaching, you know eight groups a day and you gotta bring that thunder. It’s actually not healthy because you’re always hyper than your you know. It’s like the cortisol up and down. It’s actually it’s not good. It’s not good for your health. So that’s something that’s kind of been on my mind. Is like, I’ve coached about 100 to 200 kids a day between the high school and then my private facility and the hardest, um, program I’ve ever been part of is the high school. Because the equipment was such crap. The set up was horrible. You know, I came in at, like, in the middle or the end of the season. I didn’t even come in in the beginning of the school year. Um, some of the coaches didn’t even support support it, you know. And now we got this whole cove it thing and there’s so many. It’s tough where I gotta be honest with you. I look back and I’m like, Ma’am, when I coached at Lehigh and Rutgers, sure, there were challenges. But, you know, I remember Buddy more saying when he worked with the Cleveland Browns. He’s like Zack. The hardest thing I did there was turned on the lights. I don’t really grasp what he was saying, but what he was saying is I’m working with the best. You know, athletes in the world, right? They would say, like, Why is America not dominating weightlifting? We say, because our best athletes are in the N B. A and the NFL, you know, they’re not weight lifting, and so you tell them what to do and they could move so great. And then you’ve got these, you know, multi multimillion dollar facilities and then they got the food for you know, So now it’s like at this high school, it’s like, Man, this place is a mess. You know this, You know it’s hard just to get somebody to get me a spray bottle toe wipe down equipment. [0:27:49 Speaker 1] You know, stars are. And I think, yeah, and [0:27:51 Speaker 2] so we as coaches and athletes as a coach, I think the goal is yeah, you wanna be in a great place where you could really just be able to coach. But everything is gonna be flawed. It will never be perfect. And sometimes when you’re in, you know everything so great, Donnie. It was probably such a benefit for the men’s tennis team. When I first got to Lehigh, they had just got a brand new building. Brand new weight room, brand new raises, like $25 million facility. What did I do for the first two weeks? Trained them outside, No facility. And so, you know, I was like, Man, these these guys got to get out of this Perfect. You know, beautiful set up because I got to get these guys tough. And so even when I was there, you know, in the wintertime there was aspect where we got outside for a little burst here in a little burst there. And it’s cold in the winter time in Pennsylvania. I’ll tell you that, but I knew that training had to blend physical and mental. It couldn’t just be, you know, the perfect conjugate program or the perfect high low system. And I’m only doing what my you know, whatever you’re using a wearable or you’re using a force plate. I’m following that to the T. So when you do that stuff, you’re missing the individual as a whole. [0:29:16 Speaker 0] That’s good, Coach. I remember the the famous story by Phelps we talks about. When is when is Gaga leaked his coach breaking the goggles on purpose, broke it. So you make him swim in the dark and his training sessions is what he would do. And so he had to swim. He had to know he had to know the number of strokes it took from get the one side, the other. And so on his his goggles leaked with water he couldn’t see. He fell back to his training, right. That’s kind of what saved him. Ends up breaking the record, right? And like the office his coach train him for like, hey, you’re gonna be traveling internationally. Something’s gonna go wrong at some point. And so you gotta prepare kids for that adversity on the road like that when everything is not perfect and things kind of fall apart. Can you still get focused, compete and still win? And so that’s that was interesting toe to read that about Phelps. So [0:30:07 Speaker 2] it’s, um you know what else to kind of like going back to one of those earlier questions You guys asked me about the kids being different? Um, some kids were going to resist when you push them into a tough situation. And that’s when I I tell them guys, you know? Yes, I was very tough on the kids because a group of them were really screwing it up, and I said, You blew it today. You wasted a great opportunity to get better and you couldn’t focus. You couldn’t stop talking. You couldn’t socially distance. You had an opportunity to get better. And I said, I’m upset with you. I’m disappointed because I care. So don’t be all like going to the corner saying, you know, Coach Jack, He sucks. He’s an asshole. He’s on my case. You wanna you know, when you want to be upset when I ignore you when I stop? Yeah, and And look, you know, sometimes you can’t give that kid all the attention, either. It’s really unfair toe the athletes that are working. Then I’m giving this athlete all my energy. It’s like a negative energy. Then it man up. You’re kind of, you know, your your emotional energy. Now I gotta shut that off and go talk to these athletes who are crushing it. But, you know, I just finished having to really have, Ah, pretty bad discussion with five other kids. You know, we don’t you don’t want to be in that situation and so tricky thing really with, like that at the private sector, you have a bunch of different athletes from different schools in different sports in the room at the same time. And so you know, when you try to explain, the best thing you could do is be a great teammate. They might not quite grasp that. I don’t go to that school. I’m not in that sport. How much you know we need great training partners. That’s also something that I’ve noticed the kids of today struggle with is they don’t know how to really, like coach one another, pump each other up there like quiet because they’re so used. Thio text messing each other. And I tell you know, don’t be socially awkward, learn to communicate. And so there’s kids that will take your advice and transform themselves. And there’s others that are not gonna be as coachable. And I get that, too, because when I was in my teenage years, I was not the most coachable you take. You take things very personal, you know? And that to me, was my own downfall. I would say my coaches were crazy tough on May. They were crazy in a good manner. I look back now, they changed my life, but I didn’t know how toe work with it. They also, you know, in the early nineties and late eighties, when a coach would ring you out. You know, it was pretty rare that later on, they’re like, Hey, man, I just want to tell you, I love you. Didn’t say that stuff. They didn’t say I care about you. I love you. It was a super like cut and dry there like they’re attacking you. Or, you know, it was I think it was like all like, intense and win. And so today, as a coach, you have to be almost like a therapists or something. You have to talk in all these different, different ways to reach the kids. But if your goal is to help them, then that’s on us toe. Learn these different forms of communication. [0:33:31 Speaker 0] It coach to your point real quick. I think you get a You get a really good topic there with coaching is because I have four daughters as well. I know you have. You have Children to kids? Yeah. Yeah, and so you when you and when you’re working with kids, they they walk into your facility mentally, you don’t know where they’re at. You don’t know what they’ve been through. You don’t know what they’re what battles they’re fighting because kids today are definitely I would say that’s the one thing that social media I know. People kind of harp on it. But it’s true if you’re always just mentally on, you don’t have a lot of capacity for feedback. Criticism being pushed because you’re drained. You know, they’ve been up all night on the phone. Maybe [0:34:13 Speaker 2] in your percent, [0:34:14 Speaker 0] maybe they’re in this kind of like, emotional kind of whether social bullying or maybe they feel sad because they’re not part of this group. Whatever they walk, you’re trying to get them to think about other people, and they’re so focused on themselves. The half the time in your challenge is trying to figure out where a kid is mentally in their head. But to get him to that next level, this it can be challenging like you could be almost like a counselor. Like you said, [0:34:39 Speaker 2] It’s now think that they get to college, they start dating. Then maybe the relationship ends. They see this girl or this guy with somebody else now. And I’ve always explained at the college level to the kids is guys, What’s harder? You know the emotional stress when you argue with your girlfriend, you know, because I trained just the wrestlers or, um, is it like this hard, squat work out? We’re going to go through, you know, like, and that the emotional it’s part of argument somebody just exhausted. I said Yes, that’s why you have to manage emotions and I I feel for the kids today because I remember. I always remember. As in high school, I was so regimented. If it was like 10 10 PM, lights out, go to bed thes kids go to sleep with their phones in their hands and then you’ll be like a man like, you know, John Smith or Susie Smith liked my instagram post three hours ago. That’s 2:30 a.m. And then you’re training them at 6 a.m. You’re like, Dude, this kid just slept three hours, maybe. Can you know, three hours and you want to be an elite athlete? But so they’re they’re constantly, um their battery is constantly at a like a drained point. And it’s like So basically, the way I look at it is every athlete is operating, you know, like, uh, not at they’re not at their Max. There’s they’re always at a deficit because of lack of sleep, all of the incoming information, Um, even us, you know, we work. We’re coaches. Think about our dad, you know? Think about our parents. When my dad came home from work, nobody called the house line to talk about work. He had dinner, and then we went outside, you know? No. But us. We’re checking our email at nine. At night. Then we’re looking at Instagram. We’re posting something, you know, for the business owners like myself, you’re like constantly trying to get the info out there. It’s like, Man, it never ends. So I honestly, when? When I’ve been at the university level, I loved the fact that I could just coach and not have to hold the camera. Somebody else came in and did the video, you know what I mean? I loved being able to just be with the athletes and then interact with administration. Other coaches. If you know a recruit is coming in, I could speak to parents. I love just being boom in the coaches kind of lane, whereas when I’m with this kind of private sector, you’ve got to know business. You know, I had a email came through, like, two days ago. This guy was in, like one of my earlier groups. We go through like this 12 week business coaching and hey, lived overseas. He was out in Europe and he was always wondering, Hey, can the things you do in America with running a business? Can it work here? So when the group is over, he got involved with another group of guys. He like, franchised his business. It didn’t work. He lost a lot of money and that franchise was in his area of the UK and he’s like, Man, it sent me. I got depressed, I lost money. I went into debt that, uh and it’s like in the private sector, it’s not enough to just be a great coach. You now got to be a great business person. You have tow double time, your investment of knowledge and business. And so that’s why we have heard of some of the greatest coaches out there. They could never run their business because they don’t that all they know is what’s in their lane. So when and then in the university, you need to have your in your coaching. But then you’ve got to be able to communicate with the kids. I think when we did the the staff, you know, Zoom called. I spoke about mistakes I made, which was not spending enough time with administration or outside of the athletics department. Probably the downfall there is. I’m running my own business and coaching out of university, plus juggling life and so as coaches, we get so much and I think a great place to be as a coach is when you could just go to that university and coach, and you could do this kind of one thing. Private sector life is crazy. Yeah, [0:39:13 Speaker 1] not not to take away from the balance of the private sector because you do have to invest like you’re saying that much more into the sales aspect and marketing aspect. But as as your good friend and also our good friend Brett Bartholomew makes a good point is like a zoo. Much as I hate to admit it, his like sales is still a part two of even in the college setting. And that’s what I think some of our interns coming in don’t necessarily realize. And I even see, especially in some of our really well, in tuned X’s and O’s in terms in terms who are very well read is like, you know, again, I hate the negative connotations that come with Salesman, right? You think of a used car salesman. But the truth is that if you’re working with 18 to 22 year olds who are already at a point that they’re taught to question just about everything, like you have to be able to communicate with each of them, consider, like we talked about prior, Um, all the stresses they’re dealing with and then educate them. Hey, this is why I’m asking you to do this. This is why I’m asking [0:40:13 Speaker 2] you to [0:40:13 Speaker 1] come back in later today in recover or use this modality. Um and so I think that’s again. That’s a point that does get hit, I think, in our field. But I don’t see enough interference that come into us that fully understand that. And I know I didn’t. When I got into the coaching setting, I’m just again, even to this day, still slowly accepting that that the teaching piece, the sales piece, I mean, even marketing yourself to administration so that you can get that budget that you you’re requesting, like, that’s all the big piece about being a successful coach to, um, [0:40:47 Speaker 2] even as a parent done as a parent, you gotta I gotta tell my son. Listen, let me tell. Let me explain to you why I’m disappointed when you don’t make your bed and what that means. I’m selling my son on the power of making his bed and how that’s going to improve sports and life, you know, or hey, I’ve already asked you to clean your room. I think, like every day this week. But you have, you know, you haven’t done it. And let me tell you how this is going to You know how this is gonna make your mom feel. So I’m selling him on, you know, cleaning the room and you know, things that we do as parents. And then, you know, like, Michael, you are so dead on the kids coming into the university, they’ve been taught to question everything. And so now if we want them to follow through, we’ve got to build that report and trust with them. They’re not going to feel eating. Breakfast is important. Until they realized that, like, you care about their well being talked about how this is going to impact their academics, how they’re going to feel better, look better. And look, some of these, you know, trust things is along the physical. When I got hired at this high school the first two weeks, I didn’t have a schedule. So I was just going to the weight room trying to communicate with kids, and I noticed that the kids were doing a lot of benching and curling when I was like. All right. If I want a quote unquote sell them, I’m getting in here. I got to make sure we curl every workout. We gotta get curls in, get some sort of a chest pump. And so I knew that if it was, like, if they knew that, like, Friday was gonna be some arms at the end. Yeah, it was just I would do arms all the time. I got a bunch of bands we’re always doing pushed. I mean, I’d warmed them up and I’d sneak in some biceps and triceps. I knew that. That’s what they believed in. And so that was That was my in, if you know, you mentioned a car salesman. My wife Onley buys trucks because she her belief is that it keeps the kids safe. You know, people aren’t gonna cut her off for dual this stuff. So if if I am a car salesman, you know, how do I find my way to the heart of the person who needs to buy something for the kids? Hey, you wanna be safe? We need to probably get you into something that’s a little bit bigger then this Prius that you might have been considering, you know, So you’re finding what’s important to them. Then you give them that and then you get what they So you’re giving them what they want. And then your job is also getting them what they need. And then ultimately you are. It’s so interesting, man. Like a couple of the college kids that I didn’t really connect with at the last university I was at Connect with me more. Now you know, one of them even reached out to me for, like, career advice. And like life and family advice, I, like, barely worked with him in college. You know, I didn’t have the flexibility because I was an outside contractor, so I wasn’t there all day. But then I give him Now he comes to the gym and I give him freedom. He doesn’t have to follow the program. I let him tell me what he’s looking to dio. I give him some ideas and it’s and it’s like, amazing. You know, now that he wants to be there and he says, Man, I didn’t utilize you like I should have and and look, I’m not like, Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. You didn’t because I remember what it’s like myself to not be coachable, you know, to not be able to take feedback from a coach. And that’s kind of the thing about being young at life is, you know, your experiences help you. It will shape your future. And sometimes we haven’t experienced enough things, whether it’s positive or negative, to help us make a better decision, not necessarily the right or wrong decision. Um, you know, decision making is huge. [0:44:57 Speaker 1] Sure you got me thinking about autonomy because you just spoke like, yeah, you reach out to them about Hey, what do you want to do today? What do you looking? What’s your goals? Um, I think autonomy is so huge going back to creating, buying, or even selling yourself. Um, just giving that athlete choice. And we all know what his coaches how you can kind of manipulated Teoh. You know, I don’t care if you pick from this section of the menu because [0:45:24 Speaker 2] we’re gonna [0:45:25 Speaker 1] get just about the same goal. And to be quite honest, when you give them autonomy, you can even get more intent from that, right? If you have an athlete who loves to hex bar dead lift but hates back squatting. You can get some similar attributes out of that, but you’re going to get a different effect when you get the athlete who loves to trap our dead lift. If they’re dead lifting right, where is back squatting? There may be, um, you know, pardon me, but half asking it a little bit. And so I think autonomy is That’s a huge piece of coaching. Whether you throw in the warm up where you throw it for a major lift [0:45:58 Speaker 2] or selection. I’m always like, Hey, meet me in the middle here, okay? You want to jump up, Quote, You want to jump up? I said, Let’s put on a 10. You said a quarter. Let’s meet me in the middle. Let’s go 10 and five on each side at a 10 to 5. If that looks great, I’ll let you bump up to that quarter, meet me in the middle. But the days of this is how we do it. It’s that’s over. And you know what, Donny? I guarantee your buddy Jesse Jesse Ackerman, I guarantee you in the NFL, there’s a lot of guys, whether it’s a rookie, whether it’s a veteran. Whether it’s a guy who’s got five years in, some guys might be like coach and like I love the bench or coach. I do not squat. Iron Squad. Okay? You wanna belt squat? You wanna leg press? Let’s just push. Let’s do some sort of like, you know, leg pressing movement. Whatever one you want. We got like Michael said, I got a menu here of different stakes for you. Which state do you want? You know, [0:47:00 Speaker 0] E. I think that’s true. I think you know, because all you guys you’re talking about like that creating that, buy in with an athlete and not go to go to your point Coach Jesse, uh, one of their definitely one of their high level receivers there in Atlanta. Man, I’ve always asking questions about how you get this guy to buy in, and then he’s done a good job with him, you know, and and, uh, you’re right, he’s not gonna do certain traditional lips. But if you can give him to try different things like you said coach, that I just meet me in the middle and then they feel the performance advantage on the field, and that’s slowly how you gained that buying versus I remember talking to an NFL guy last year who was in town and the guy had some lower back problems. He’s a veteran, played for really one of the one of the best teams in the league, and I don’t know what Street coach they were making him back spot. I’m like they were making you back squat. I was. I couldn’t believe it that sometimes in me and Hansen, me and Hansen to get on this kind of this rant sometimes, but the purest of like you’ve gotta squat at. If you don’t go parallel or deeper, you don’t count. And I’m just as I’ve gotten older and worked with different athletes from all backgrounds. Man, you, you gotta look at squad. It’s a tool. It’s not. It’s not. Ah, law. It’s not if we don’t do this and you’re not really a good strength coach. Now I’m like you coach, like, how can we get this kid better? How can we give in to buy in into the performance training and see the advantage on the field and, like you said it ultimately, to get them into a position where they’re better people is well, so that creates a coach athlete relationship that creates trust and buying and bond. That’s way more important than any exercise selection. [0:48:48 Speaker 2] That is huge. Yeah, okay. I like squats, coach, but if I go all the way down and kills my knees, Alright, go aslo as’s, you feel comfortable. Don’t go crazy heavy, but we’ll get some full range movements when we may be going do some split squats or step ups or walking lunges. Or like in the grand scheme of things. Do I need that? Full. Do I need to hit parallel in any leg exercise? Do I need to go below parallel? Well, it depends. Maybe they need, you know, more posterior change strength than they do. More of, like, that knee flexion. And so I’m pretty sure who he was. The sprinter. That Charlie friend, you know, Ben Johnson, Supposedly when he squatted, it was not a full squad. It wasn’t above parallel, you know, not a half squat. A little bit deeper than half squat. You know, a [0:49:45 Speaker 1] song. Is he still running fast, right? [0:49:47 Speaker 2] He’s still running fast. And what do we want to avoid doing? We want to avoid, you know, forcing people into exercises or any activity that I call it like, Don’t mess with their key. You know, like you’re always going to have some very unique athletes and they might be like your stand out on the team on the football team. It’s often going to be like your quarterback or the receiver. You know, somebody who’s kind of like gets a lot of the attention. And so what makes them confident? What movements make them confident? Some of them wanna lift heavy. They feel better lifting heavy. Some of them don’t wanna lift heavy. They only believe in speed. But if maybe their season does not end as they wanted. Thio, then when you have kind of like a meeting with them, just say when I look at her training, you know, I know you love speed work, but I felt I feel like if you were a little bit stronger, like that guy wouldn’t have been able to stop you. And if you’re all right with it, we should try introducing what we call Sub Max strength work. You’re not going to do a one rep Max, but you do like a set of three or five. But you feel like you could always do one more. If we do that once a week, that could make a big difference. We should test it out and see how you feel. But I feel like you know, what do you think you did all that speed work? The guys that beat you? What do you feel the beat you on? And then they honestly say, Yeah, man, Yeah. I was definitely a little bit bigger and stronger than me. Say, hey, that’s all right. We’re gonna evolve. We’re gonna get better from this. So you’re always like it’s always Then you’re letting them realize there really driving. They’re, you know, they’re driving the car on the passenger. I’m gonna read the map to you. And, you know, if we get lost, you got to give me a chance to, like, maybe use a different app. You know, I’m gonna use ways instead of my maps on iPhone. You gotta It’s interesting. I was honestly never like that in my early days, that’s for sure. It takes timeto learn that. And, uh, I’m very transparent about my mistakes because it’s important to share those mistakes like Michael, You mentioned that the young interns that come in, you know, when interns gotta be like, 21 or 22 years old? I mean, how long has somebody that age been training? You know, for May I started training age 13.5. That would have been nine years of me lifting. But, you know, think about I think about how many thousands of kids you’ve trained, How many people are they trained and sometimes people are They look great. They could train themselves. Then they got no clue how to do any of this individualization that we’re talking about. They don’t know how they think everybody’s like them, you know, point. But, man, you’re gonna be working with 50 different personalities for [0:52:41 Speaker 1] sure. I think there’s I mean, like, you’re saying it’s so important to note that there’s too many variables to draw a line in the sand. Right? There’s There’s too many variables and performance and people to say you have to squat at 90 degrees. And one thing I try toe communicate to all of our incoming freshmen each years. Look, it’s not my goal to make all of you fit the sheet that I printed out. My goal is to eventually get to the point, hopefully pretty quickly to make the sheet that I have fit you, Um and I think we just get it backwards because we get caught up and excited in our creativity of programming and learning the next thing. But, like you’re saying, it’s like what works for me, A 5 ft eight male strength coach who played hockey. It’s not gonna work for a 6 ft six female volleyball player that coach coaches. Um, [0:53:31 Speaker 2] what teams are you with? Me. So [0:53:33 Speaker 1] I’m I’m with women swimming, rowing here in Texas. But there’s just so many different variables, like we’re saying, for demands of sport, for anatomical limitations, um, their training age, even to the point. Like you said, if you grew up in this neighborhood in 15 minutes away is a completely different neighborhood that can affect too, just like how you train what you like, how you act in the way, ERM, how you perceive it, Um, and so there’s just there’s too many things to just draw a line in the sand. And everyone in that small box [0:54:05 Speaker 2] yeah. Did you guys ever hear with Like coach Dan, John has spoken about what? What shapes like athletes. Is geography genetics an opportunity or like so meaning, you know, geography. Um, football is big in Texas, right? Yeah, right. So I’m probably if I’m a boy, it’s very likely I’ll be playing football. Okay, now, genetics. What? You know what my parents gift me with? That’s something that’s going to shape me. So geography, genetics. And then what was the other one? Opportunity. Environment? Yeah. Opportunity. So what if, you know, I grow up in whatever, like, you know, certain name? It’s Aryan. I grew [0:54:53 Speaker 0] up in Minnesota. Mike from Minnesota. OK, Minnesota’s What? You gonna play your [0:54:58 Speaker 2] hockey? There you go. It’s cold. You are your hockey. Wrestling is pretty big there. If you’re in Iowa, it’s pretty likely you’re gonna be You’re gonna be wrestling. Indiana don’t know basketball. Still pretty big there. But then your opportunity. Or like so you’ve got genetics, geography, and then I think opportunity. Meaning what if by luck, like our buddy John Welborn, his first coach was Zangas like, ah, world class powerlifter, that changes everything so he gets started off training under or let’s say, where was Gail Hatch. Was he in Louisiana? Eso Kurt Hester training under Gail Hatch and then for speed. Who was the guy who started velocity? Forget that. Yeah, I think those were his mentors. Okay, dude like that changes everything. And so having the opportunity to be close to that is, you know, it’s tremendous. So if I, you know, surfing in my town is like a really big thing. You know, our town is like they win like the national tournament in surfing. Why you could ride your bike to the beach all year long, no matter the season and surf. They grow up there surfing at like, two years old. You know, babies, air surfing, geography your environment is such a it shapes you. Or you know what I say about kids like there’s a lot of good football players that come from one of the most dangerous cities in New Jersey, Camden. Because they play street ball. That’s their geography. That’s the opportunity had and by playing a lot of street ball, you get tough, you get fast and you actually get very good at the sport because you’re you’re playing nonstop, you know? So those things are big factors and what you know, Does that athlete bring, you know, bring to the table you have, and you have these differences that fall in between all those cracks. It’s a riel. You know, working with people in general is a pretty complex thing. [0:57:13 Speaker 1] Yeah, I’m I think the book talent code touches on that environment piece or geography piece about, like the good example that has stuck with me is playing soccer in Brazil. Barefooted, you’re playing is extremely small courts and so that when you bring them to a big field, they’re so good at ball handling, you knowing what to do next with the ball that Brazil is just, you know, heading heels above everybody else. Yeah, [0:57:39 Speaker 2] yeah. So you you’re talking about the men’s tennis that remind me of the book talent code because they mentioned tennis. And I think it’s called Spartak Russia. Russia, where the kids are playing tennis in a warehouse with no heat. And not every kid even has a tennis ball. But that, um, group like produces Mawr junior world like ran tennis players than anywhere else in the world. In the crappiest conditions and without even every kid having a tennis ball. And then you mentioned the soccer in Brazil when I was teaching elementary phys ed, the area I taught in. We had a lot, a lot of kids from India, and they would wear sandals like flip flops to school. You know, we’re like those Velcro ones, and what did the phys Ed curriculum was like? A lot of the teachers were like, Oh, they’re unprepared, they can’t play. And so when they go to another teacher, they say, Mr Avnish always let us play. When we had played soccer, we had flip flops and the teachers like, Why are you letting kids playing flip flops? I go because there’s kids all around the world playing barefoot in the sand, on dirt and on pavement, and they’re fine. This kid doesn’t even own sneakers. That means he’s gonna be unprepared all year. Let the kid play. They’re fine, you know. And so I had a different I guess my knowledge of what kids were doing all around the world didn’t make me afraid that kids were playing soccer on our grass field. Little grass, not dirt grass with flip flops. They were that was what they were used to, anyway. Then they come to America and the teachers like, Oh, no sneakers can’t play. You should play barefoot anyway, you know? So it’s, um, and think about that at the college. You’re sponsored by a certain brand. Nike, Adidas, whatever. And now these kids get these Nike shoes you wear. You know, everything’s just like so perfect for them. It’s like, Look at the best weightlifters. A lot of times there training facility is not. Those training halls are really Spartan, like it’s just interesting to see that on Ben, I guess. You know, I know you guys. You’re with the Olympic sports. I’m not sure. You know, when I look at football, which university has the most expensive weight room? Um, I don’t believe that team is maybe not even in the top 10. Maybe not even in the top 20. Yeah. Yeah. [1:00:21 Speaker 1] That’s full circle from what we talked about earlier. With that, you know how nice of stuff you have versus having athletes work through adversity. It’s the [1:00:31 Speaker 2] coach. It’s the coach who makes who can make something great. Yeah, go ahead. Donny [1:00:36 Speaker 0] had a question We’re gonna wrap up here in just a moment. But this is our first show, Zach, since the pandemic hit that we’ve recorded. Okay, just a little more personal question for you. Something that I admire and definitely have, um, been drawn to you during this time. It just It just seems like you got, like, this perspective and how you seem like you just really navigated these challenges personally. Well, what would you say, Coach? How would you? I know there’s coaches out there. Layoffs, people struggling in their businesses, getting shut down, struggling in their career path, like, what would you say personally, like, what have you done? And what kind of encouragement would you get? The people out there listing that air still just going through a tough time right now, Coach. [1:01:26 Speaker 2] Great question. Because I saw that I saw this sport teams getting cut or they said, Hey, you’ll be on until the end of 2021 if there is a season. If sport coaches air getting cut, I know that strength coaches air getting cut. I’ve seen it in the schools, you know, they’re cutting, you know, uh, the teacher’s aides, the power professionals, bus drivers, you know, cuts are happening But in our industry, you know, number one, you can’t sit on your butt. I don’t. You know you. If you’re if our whole thing is about teaching athletes toe work, you’ve got to be a worker. Now I’m going to give you a quick story because I know we’re dwindling on time. I tell all coaches, you should write your own book. And you know, I got so many books here, but one of the coaches that’s worked with me in, like, a business aspect. I tell him to do stuff. He gets it done. He gets his book out. He created online programs for his athletes and for people who follow him on Instagram, you know, that are not in New Jersey. He created multiple sources, you know, multiple streams of income. Unfortunately, our were so passionate about strength and conditioning. But we’re our industry is very volatile. It’s so come and go. You know, you think administration loves you, think the coaches love you, and then man like you could be the first person to get cut. And it’s and it’s heartbreaking. And so you don’t want to just have this one source of income because it may not be that easy to get up and move as it once waas because there’s less jobs available now. Supposedly this, you know, pandemic that’s causing this recession is going to take many years to recover from, You know, colleges that can’t have a football season or can’t have people in the stands. They say the big universities are losing 80 to $100 million just this year from football, so coaches need to have multiple streams of income. You can write your own book and in that book should include stories. Incorporate stories of transformation from athletes you’ve worked with. Should it include your story so that when you go to the next strength coach conference, you know you have 10 of them with you and you meet coaches and just say, Donny, man, I had a great time having lunch with you, and I wrote this book and I just wanted to give it to you. And if you have some downtime, maybe you leaf through it. But I really had a great time with you. So I give you a book instead of a card or an email or follow me on Instagram. You start reading it in your you start connecting with it and then a friend reaches at you and he’s like Donny, you know, you know anybody who we need somebody 1000. And you’re like, You know what? I just read this book by John, this guy, John Smith, and this guy would be a great fit for you. I’m gonna give you his number. He wrote this book, and so that is very important. Multiple streams of income. Also, with the, you know, online. You must research as a strength coach. You have to learn the business. You have to research answers to whatever it is that you need to get better at. And I’ve said it many times. Like people are really good at just sitting on a phone scrolling and really wasting time. You know, the rules should be, if you’re gonna be on the Internet, contribute post the video, engage in a conversation, build relationships by doing that. But do not waste time scrolling through it endlessly. And so it’s not just enough to be passionate about, you know, the performance industry. But you need thio. I guess the best thing would be is like look at Rama Cay. Freeze books. You know, strength Coach CEO. He speaks about all of those multiple streams of income. You know, my my one buddy said the only guarantee in our industry is there are no guarantees. And to me, that’s like one of the most heartbreaking truths of our industry, you know? So I’m gonna recommend you researched business, not just training. You write your own book, you self publish it on Amazon and you get involved with a company like train heroic or another one of these APS toe offer some online programming. And you do this. You know, you get involved with other coaches, be available when you can, because it will open up doors down the road. It’s a It’s a relationship business. [1:06:00 Speaker 0] Great. Bye. Appreciate it, Coach. Thank you, Coach Hansen. Any as we wrap up here. Any closing thoughts on today’s podcast? You coach Zach? Any closing thoughts? Yeah, we got [1:06:11 Speaker 1] about a minute and a half, but e wanted to fit this in there. The last time we spoke with you, we asked for resource is and then I couldn’t help but just get a big chuckle that you sent us the saga of the Do you want a bar Bell Club? If you could just list like one or two resource is that you’d recommend to coaches over the next minute here that we have left. What would you recommend? [1:06:35 Speaker 2] I would recommend going on eBay and buying some old strength and health magazines from the fifties, the sixties, the seventies, Um, those air going to be great. So kind of learning that the history of the way they trained was a blend of para lifting, calisthenics, weightlifting. Same thing like some Bill star Strongest shall survive is going to be great. I’ve got a website underground strength coach dot com where I share a lot of old videos of people like Dr Ken Listener and training videos from my gym from 15 years ago. So I think trying to find some of the older stuff and you guys have the stark center my correct and stark center has online. They put their, I think, whatever its physical books is online there. So that’s what I would tell them to go do guys I know it’s about to shut down, thanks to you guys. Love you guys, man, much respect. Appreciate you talk to you guys soon. See you, Coach. See you guys. Thanks. [1:07:38 Speaker 0] Thanks so much for tuning in and listening to this episode of the team behind the team podcast for future episodes. Goto, iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast or Stitcher way. Definitely wanna keep having great guests on the show and great content. So if you have a moment, please go to iTunes, leave a rating and review and let us know how we’re doing. I’m Donny May and thanks so much for tuning in