Episode 9 – Natosha Daniels discusses policy and grassroots community work

Natosha: Welcome to the bridge, a podcast and the division of diversity and community engagement at the university of Texas at Austin, where we share stories and best practices from UT instructors who connect, on-campus learning And research with real world community projects. I’m Natasha Daniels. I’m a graduate research assistant with the center for community engagement and a doctoral student in the ed policy and planning.

I’m also the chief systems navigator with round rock, black parents association of parents of three amazing young people a former educator, 15.

Mallory: And I’m Mallory Lineberger, also a graduate research assistant with the center for community engagement and a doctoral student in education policy and planning program. And this episode, Natasha and I will discuss engaged, graduate research, focusing on how to Tasha’s work in the community with Roundrock black parents association her research her doctoral work at UTS college of education.

I would love to know more about what brought you to study policy at the university of Texas.

Natosha: I was an educator for 15 years. I taught special education science. , I was an administrator, so it’s K through 12. I’ve been in the public education system for 15 years.

I love my job, and I love the students that I taught like that’s the heart and I think any educator are the kids. , but the bureaucracy was super intense and I experienced some extreme racial violence at the hands of a system that was honestly built to push me out as a black educator. I think when we look at the history of integration, , black teachers are underrepresented because integration centered white comfort and.

when black students went into white schools, , they did not hire black teachers. So I think this has been a longstanding, , historical piece that has led to why I exited public education and why I’m seeking answers. In a policy program. , I have three children and two of which receives special education services.

I just recognize , the system is flawed from the top and felt like I need to understand it inside and out so that I can attempt to create something outside of it or not. I, but we, cause I, I feel like I never do anything alone. It’s all about community, but we need to be able create something outside of what currently.

Mallory: I think that historical context is so important. and , I’m so glad you brought it back to integration and how, , we are still seeing the legacy. Of brown vs board play out today. and I think that most people think about that as, , a , only positive, , Supreme court ruling. But, , as you mentioned, of course, there were lots of other consequences , that were negative, especially, for black educators.

, So I appreciate you sharing that. , I’d love to know a little bit more, about your work with round rock black parents. I seen, , coverage and national news outlets, is really exciting, , to have a parent organization, especially a black peer, an organization, , from the local Austin area.

Receiving such attention. So I’d love to know a little bit more about the work around Dropbox parents and, , , and how that relates to your research.

Natosha: Roundup by parents was born of pain. It began in 2015 when, , a black student was choke, slammed by a police officer. And, , it was caught on camera. You can see it on YouTube. It was all over the news. There was a white student who had taken something from a black student and he was trying to get it back.

And the police officer chokes on the black student and had his knee and his back and, , and black parents marched up to central office, , to a board meeting. And they were like, we demand, accountability for this. You can’t do this. He’s 14 years old. And long story short, the district basically said the officer had done nothing wrong.

But the incident galvanized a community that had basically been silent. Like we, we had. Been letting these things happen. And when something so egregious happens, you open your eyes and see what’s going on. And that one organizing effort led to what is now round rock white parents association.

And we have been, unfortunately, I don’t I hate using the word fight, but that’s what it is. Like been fighting to ensure that our kids gained an education ever since. But it’s more than just the fight. I think Brennan off my parents is such a beautiful space because black families and parents of black children are uplifted.

, we have check-ins , we had a black joy, barbecue, not so long ago. , and you mentioned like the national work, ,

Mallory: yeah. I mean it Tasha you were on Rachel Maddow, like being on Rachel Maddow is such a big deal.

Natosha: Oh my God. I was so nervous. Original med out. , but yeah, we’ve been on, MSNBC, NBC news, Austin woman featured us in their April. , , they like this month, , magazine but most of the work that they have discussed on the national outlets have been around book bands and how we fought a book ban in round rock ISD.

But I think Ronald with parents is so much bigger than that book ban. And that’s the message we keep trying to communicate is that these book bands are a symptom of something so much larger. Like when we talk about, especially like being an ed policy, we talk about the push for privatization and.

And how, like in either system, the system that currently exists or the privatization that they’re pushing for black students are still going to suffer. Our positions in public education are so precarious and it’s kinda like you’re waiting for the other shoe to trap. When is my kid going to be the one that’s on TV?

And, even if you look at the discipline data in round rock ISD, a black student is four times more likely to go to the DAP. Discretionary placement. And the DAP is, the alternative education. We call it the round rock opportunity center, but what’s so alarming is that discretionary placement means this wasn’t for a fight.

This wasn’t for bringing a gun. This wasn’t for a knife. These are discretionary placements where an administrator said, you’re misbehaving. You’re going to the alternative. The alternative school has traditionally been highly black and brown. And it’s basically a place where being in that system, I’ve seen teachers say it’s time for them to go to the rock.

because rather than them change their teaching practices, they’re like, oh, we’ll just get him out of my class. And that’s where that disproportionality is being seen.

Mallory: How does the work of round rock black parents, connect to your research? ,

Natosha: when I came in, , I really wanted to study, , Black parents PTA because I was like the PTA doesn’t really serve us. We really need to look at , how we can organize nationally, but getting here and like really being in the thick of it and doing the work in the community and doing the research.

I’ve realized that , it’s so much bigger than that. I think also something that people don’t realize is that black parents in the United States are not new to organizing. I think the dominant narrative is that black parents are not involved, but , they’ve been resisting, , , since the 18 hundreds, , with emancipation, , in 1896, , The, , community group of black mothers gone to the national association of COVID women, which grew to 250,000 members by 1927.

And this was in response to what what is now the national PTA, because the national PTA was like, oh, we’ll include anyone, which is quite a bold stance to take. , at the time, but it was only on paper, right? It was very performative and the PTA was not serving the needs of black students. So by the turn of the 20th century, the USR rise in black parent associations through the national Congress of colored parents and teachers.

Now I’m really focusing , on how parents are responding to these incidents at school. What activism looks like through service models and how black parents are shifting policies and practices. , I think, going into my classes. objective is a little different because anytime I read an article or anytime I’ve given an assignment, I think, how is this going to push my people forward?

And how is this going to inches closer to liberation. And when I write a paper, I don’t write to turn it in for an assignment. I write for a community. I write in a way that I can say I can deliver this to black parents and they can be like, oh, I didn’t know that. , so I think that my community work is the entire impetus for my research.

My kids are the impetus for my research. , and I think there’s so much tension between academic work and practicing. I think about some of the things that we read in our classes and how, like some of the suggestions that are given you can tell, have gone, have come from someone that has never organized anything.

Never, probably never taught in a school. And it’s a little, it’s a little, right. It’s a little concerning because I think as academics, we have a duty to make sure that we are in these spaces are not just writing from a exploitative space. I think it goes back to the question that we had an epistemology who should do the research.

And while I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here, I I think we have to be about how we are approaching the work, how we are entering spaces and how we are connecting with the people in the community. Like how are you talking to them? are they participating?

Because I’m a huge fan of participate, participatory that I’ve been reading. , while I haven’t done any, I think these are all questions that we need to keep at the forefront.

Mallory: I went to a conference in October. , and it was the critical race studies and conference. , and they had a whole, , panel was a specific project that was going on, , in. Wilmington, Delaware. And, , basically they called it, , street par or a street participatory action research.

and the research project was created by people from the community and, , professors from the university of Delaware actually. Helped facilitate the research project. but it was really actually led by the community. , and when the professors and community members who are part of the project, , were speaking in this panel, they talked about how this effort was specifically, to combat, scientific colonialism that so many times they’re interested in studying an issue and they come to a community that they don’t belong in or that they don’t belong to. , and study the community from the outside, , they don’t really have a true perspective of, the issues that are there instead of, in this project that it was completely reversed, , because it was led by community members.

And I think, like you said, it’s, it is this question, for me as a white researcher interested in issues of race, , I’m grappling with that of who, where is the line and what is the, is my responsibility to step back when it’s not my place, , to do research in certain areas, but at the same time, how can I leverage, , my privilege and positionality, , in order to be able to conduct research and to be able to lift some of these issues.

I’m so excited to see, where your research goes, I think that there are so many really rich, amazing things that you could do. In the community, but then also would have such a wide ranging impact, outside of Roundrock, outside of Austin, outside of Texas.

Do you have any current, research projects or ideas that you’re currently working on or what are the projects that you are, that you really excited about research?

Natosha: , so shameless plug here for Mallory and I, the symposium this fall,

Mallory: Yes.

Natosha: planning the CVS. , which is centering intersectionality this year. And I’m super excited because I feel like this is, , an opportunity to center community. When we talk about bringing faculty together and them going in and doing, , doing community or like connecting with community so often it’s.

Research on and not research with, or, it can have a white saviorism mentality and I feel like bringing the community into our symposium and de-centering the ivory tower. get back to the root of why we’re here is academics. Like we’re all here to make some sort of change.

Otherwise we wouldn’t be here. , that’s something I’m excited about. there’s several projects that we’re working on within round knock by black parents. are several organizations that we are connecting with and we’re just building networks that will lead us to a national platform, is exciting.

I think Mallory, you and I are working on. I don’t want to say loud. Cause I know it’s like at the beginning stages, but we’re working with a Senator some holistic policy, which is super exciting because on the ground floor of something that has the potential to really benefit families and more specifically families of color, because I think they’re often left out of the equation.

Especially in public schools, in the state of Texas, only 26% of students identify as white. So when you think about the policy, right? When you think about the policies that we are crafting, who are we cracking them for and who is crafting them?

I think it’s really exciting to have a voice in a public school system that is now majority us in Texas. Like it is people.

Mallory: Yeah. A hundred percent. That is something. For my own research that I’m actually looking at in the last legislative session, is whose voices were prioritized, whose voices were missing, voices were silenced, , in the policy-making process, especially around, the censorship in schools and, , It’s really infuriating to think about how, the majority of students in the state of Texas are students of color and the people who are making decisions their education don’t they represent them technically, but they don’t represent them, , and it’s mainly older white men in the legislature, , in these spaces who are making these decisions and. I understand the consequences, , both intended and unintended of the decisions that they’re making and how harmful is. Not only for students of color, but I argue also for white students because white students also need to understand, , need to be exposed to things that are not just, white experiences.

, and I think that, you hit the nail right on the head there that, , this work is so important so that we can make sure that, the students in our state are actually seeing themselves in curriculum and feeling like their lived experiences are recognized. and affirmed not just there, but, , but affirmed.

We’ve been talking a lot about our interests as graduate researchers. How do you feel the university might be able to support graduate students who are interested in community-based research?

Natosha: When you look and I should probably should’ve pulled it the demographics of UT when you enter into communities I think. Number one, we have to be ready for that. And that means doing our own work. So I think , the university could center conversations around systemic racism and anti-black racism specifically, because I think that’s like the root of everything.

But. I think, oh, and isn’t, I think we need to center all of these conversations in our classes. I think as professors, like our professors have to do the unlearning right there and check their own bias, their own, like Abe Ally’s language and internalized racial oppression.

There’s so much to do there before you can go enter into a community so that you can understand where you’re going. And then secondly, I think we do a great job with connecting through give pulse? , did you want to speak about, give post.

Mallory: Sure. , so gift polls is actually like an online platform that, , that our center, the center for community engagement, , runs, but it’s open to anybody, , students, faculty, staff at UT to track their service. , and it’s the overall program is volunteer UT. and there’s over like over 200 community organizations that post for, students faculty and staff, volunteer opportunities, , for them to come and work with community organizations.

And so there’s a lot of opportunity. There’s a lot of opportunity to connect. They’re using. Using that platform. it, so there’s these kind of like formal relationships, I think you’re getting at that there’s these formal, kind of ways in relationships that exist, that the university is connecting to the community service and community engagement.

but I think we can both agree, like it would, always room for more, always room for.

Natosha: I think that, so often we tend to , gravitate to. Larger organizations that are super visible, like Austin pets alive, or Austin Justice coalition. Cause they’re huge names in our community and I’m not discounting that like they need all the support they can get, but there are also smaller organizations doing the work of improving lives.

And think could really benefit from a partnership with the university students. And some of the orgs out here or educators in solidarity act formerly, which was formerly undoing racism, round rock undoing, white supremacy, Austin Hadow black families black Pflugerville. , when we look at how Austin is gentrifying, , it’s important to pull in the suburban areas, Mainer, like the people are having to go, because it is super unaffordable at this point. , like doing the work to preserve and, , and help those that are still here that are still hanging on by bias the red to, to stay in their homes in Austin.

Mallory: Natasha, you mentioned. Educators and solidarity which is a local anti-racist teacher organization. And that’s actually how we met even before we were in this, , this doctoral program together. , and as I’m thinking about it, , we did, we were active during the session and did a lot of policy work, but I’m also thinking about the connection to UT in that, you and I are in this program, a lot of graduates from the university of Texas, , that are leaders and educators in solidarity.

How do you see, you see the university forming partnerships or making connections?

, with groups like educators and solidarity, ,

Natosha: it’s important to really look at education as holistically as possible health policy is education policy. And this came from, an article I read by jean anion, which really talks about how education policy cannot be considered alone because there’s so many things that impact education, like housing, healthcare. I think in connecting with the university, we need more people with those experiences.

We need more students like this is their passion and really get to the root of how they can us in our efforts to support black and brown led organizations and to build capacity as anti-racist educators and community members. So I think that’s a huge there for the university to partner with.

Mallory: Yeah. And I think this really sums up our conversation so is I think both of us, and there’s a lot of us in education policy space at UT that we’re here because we want to use academic research as a way to, create change, , and disrupt systems that are oppressive.

, but I think that, what you’re saying is so important that being grounded in community and being grounded in, , experiences of both of us having been educators and understanding kind of these policies play out, , or could play out, , in real life instead of just not having that experience and just assuming that, even the policies with the best intentions, , sometimes with, during the implementation process, I can do more harm than good.

I think that, you’re right, and maybe there, there is space for UT to continue, recruiting students have these lived experiences, not only as educators, , but have lived experience, a variety of different types of lived experiences to bring, different kinds of voices into spaces to, try and make these policies that are more inclusive, that are more equitable that represent, , the student population here in Texas. , Yeah, this was such a lovely conversation and Natasha, , it’s always fun to talk to you. such a great time working together and going to school together.

, is there anything else that you feel like you just want to or that we’ve missed in this conversation?

Natosha: I just want to thank you for even giving me the opportunity to speak because so often I don’t see myself as an expert I’m just out here, honestly as a black mama, trying to make, our community better.

Mallory: Yeah. In that space, you are. and I know that speaking for myself, and I think I can speak for that has had a class with you that, that knowledge into the classroom and making connections to, real world situations. And, , and the community is. Like it’s so invaluable and so important.

I appreciate you. Thank you for taking the time and, being so transparent and honest and open, , your experiences because they are still valuable.

Natosha: Thank you so much, Mallory.

Mallory: Thanks for joining us for this conversation about community engagement and graduate research. Our next episodes will focus on intersectionality and community engaged, teaching, learning, and research. up to our community-based learning symposium this fall then keep up with the center for community engagement on social media.

At UT underscore CCE on Twitter and instagram@utexascceonfacebookorvisitourwebsitediversitydotutexas.edu slash community engagement.