Episode 8 Part 2 – UT faculty and Austin community leaders discuss Black history and preservation in East Austin

Welcome to the bridge, a podcast from the division of diversity and community engagement at the university of Texas at Austin, where we share stories and best practices from university of Texas instructors who connect on campus learning and research with real world community projects. In this episode, we will continue with part two of the conversation between the center for community engagement, UT faculty and Austin, community leaders, discussing black history and preservation in east Austin.

If you miss part one, you can find it on the homepage for the bridge podcast. We already know that there is this way in which, um, the stories and the histories of, um, Historically marginalized community duties in this black community, you know, do not. Aren’t part of this like formal archive in these many ways.

And like what you mentioned, Rachel, the way we archive and all these ways that we hold history is not always seen, you know, in the same wide. And so how do you all, all kind of approach this with your work first, this challenge around, you know, many times this stuff is hasn’t been collected. This history is.

So unknown by so many, um, and so important, right. You know, many people have just recently learned about the 28 print, the 1928 plan and how that has impacted so much. So how do you, you know, deal with that kind of coming up against that challenge? And then, you know, my second part to this is especially right now when we there’s this such an urgency, because we know, you know, the way this placement and gentrification is happening, we are even more at risk of erasing, you know, the history that we are aware of.

So how do you approach it? You know, what can you, you, what can you kind of jewel or, or can you get to those of us who are also grappling with this work? Well, how much room we have. I know, right? It be the question. Isn’t it. I mean, um, what I would say is I would sit off by saying, I think I would, I think there’s an opportunity that own, that gentrification does some stuff.

That’s horrible. We talk around it in the city. We solve the, the. But gentrification does a lot of stuff. That’s every break, right. Displacement. Right. We lift those things. I think we don’t do, uh, we don’t talk about those things directly. We try to, um, softed there and I don’t think it’s serving us. I think it cultivates at an either or environment anyway, and either, or, or kind of narrative that’s, that’s a problem.

Um, and we don’t, um, say these are the things about it. That erode our culture and ERO our history. And I really feel like we don’t have some direct conversations around how this impacts the financially vulnerable, um, how it creates disorientation around anchoring, who we are in our community. Like all those things, you know, nobody nobody’s ready to talk about inviting and inclusion while you are excluded.

So I think there’s some opportunity to, to, to practice some courage around the real conversations and to put emphasis on healing from the way in which we misrepresented what’s happening. Um, and then I feel like this point there’s always a, a halfway approach to them. We clean out a little bit of the room, uh, the bacteria wound with not all of it.

I don’t think it need to be a full. On clean out, meeting a real thoughtful, honest conversation before we can really talk about how to cocreate something that is accessible and, you know, like affordable housing, there’s affordable housing, and then there’s other, right. I went through about the stuff that like, you can actually live now out this student I’m working with.

So I meant to figure that all the time and, um, We need, we, we have a deep tissue conversation to convene aware of what, whether it goes in. Yes, it’s in deep. I never passed up an opportunity to preach the good word of preserving what you have so often. So often too often, I meet lack of brown folks in the community here in Austin or elsewhere of who don’t think of what they have as.

Significant when you think about larger history, right? But we are all, we are all living in this moment contributing to hi to history as it will be eventually. So, um, if you have family photos, family papers there in the garage, get them out there on the floor, move them up, y’all know a plug in the attic, bring them down.

You want things to be, um, for preservation reasons at a more stable temperature. Um, away from humidity and, and very damn places and places that are vulnerable to pest as well. But think about that. Think about really treasuring. Maybe you’ve got a box from a grandparent where you were clean out a house and you threw it in the garage.

Bring that inside. Really start to think about what you wanna do with it. We are in a, a really wonder for a moment here in Austin. Right now, Rivera is a vibrant community of black and brown memory workers of Arthur, the people who. Can help people who can talk with you about it. If it, if you have materials that you yourself don’t wanna keep people like myself who are happy to walk you through, where they, that might live well in the city for other folks to access and, um, engage with, as they do this kind of, um, narrative build and cultural recovery work that we’ve been talking about.

So I just. I just want everybody to walk away, always knowing that your history, your legacy is important and worthy of being preserved. And it’s important for us to first take ownership of doing that preservation work, cuz that’s history has taught us outside. Entity might not treat and love our stories the way out you do that is so important.

Um, and just to kind of encourage people that your bros and, you know, your stories. And that our archives look different. Right. You know, the funeral programs and the, you know, the family Bible and, you know, the land geography, like all these things, telling stories. So, and I’m having to reshape my mind around that.

Like, nobody wants my papers, you know? No, they’re mistaken. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I like, I like to remind people that they too are founding. Fathers, founding fathers, brothers, sisters. What have you that this country is still being founded. This city is still being founded, that we all possess history. We should link of ourselves as histor and, and, and look around observant.

Like I said, the eyes are like AMS. Treasure, what you have, uh, uh, you know, OB observe what you have and what’s going on around you. I don’t think that you are an insignificant person, uh, whether, whether you are rich or poor greed or Notre they’ll think that, that you were, that you were an insignificant person.

And, and, and as, as you said, uh, Pam, you know, you, we talked to the people who think that history began when they were born. And it’s like, I did not know about the master plan. Well, okay. I’ll put the, I’ll put it on like this. I grew up in a segregated, um, and things. I started to see things change. I’m so glad to say.

But the very fact that we live over on Greenwood avenue in east Austin, it was for a reason. Yeah, it was economical, but also because it was RA racial that we lived over on the east side, there were more blacks and Mexicans on the east side. And I didn’t understand that except the detail. Well, that’s just where we live.

Well, it wasn’t until I read, um, uh, Austin American statesman, uh, 100 a year retrospect in 1971, which had articles around the 1928 master plan. And I, I, I get no idea of that. Oh, a Negro district was proposed to be, uh, to be created by city council in 1928. And then it started to hit me. Well, that’s why we are living in a certain area of the city.

And I, I was 16 years old at 71 when I found that happens mm-hmm and speak. And, and early later that I find out about that there were black communities in other parts of the city as well, you know, prior to the 1928 master plan. And that I, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t know that until I was, I was a grown man.

I mean, I knew about Clarksville. I knew about that from the age 19. But to know about these other communities. Um, like, like, it was interesting to note that there was a, a, an AME church in south Austin I’ll see nannies. And I didn’t really understand that. And then my father may have told me something about that, that he had relatives who once lived in that area.

So. St Andy still exists, but you know, there are very few blacks who now live in that particular area that was part of a, of Aless community at once. Also brings up the fact that gentrification is not new. It’s been going on gentrification and off skill, uh, especially where black people are concerned, uh, is, is, is not something that just occurred within the last 20 years.

And really that master plan was gentrification because this, you know, as a cycle, that’s continuing this, um, you know, this past, this call that we have. That everyone’s talked about to preach, to teach, um, but also to act. And for me, part of that activity, part of that process is taking the ownership, but also, um, you know, understanding, you know, the, we as historians, whether we’re professional historians or everyday historians of our family or community.

We have value there’s importance. And the key word for that, you know, on a professional level is, is significance because, you know, something has to have a certain amount of significance to be considered historically important, to become a landmark, to become listed to the national right, historic places.

And it’s being able to preach and teach at history and create that context. And so not only do we know and understand the significance, but that we can, um, In essence, you know, validate, even though it’s important to us and we know the importance to be able to say, Hey, this building is important because this story, this individual is important because, and so to, to retake ownership of the value of our history and the built environment, that is part of that history is really important and really crucial moving forward in order to combat things like.

Gentrification, you know, in the preservation of, um, of east Austin or whatever community it is in which we’re living. Um, and it’s not, it’s not just for the black community, but for other marginalized community, um, and neighborhoods in Austin. In Texas across the country. Um, so it’s really important that, you know, whatever these stories, um, that they have, you know, whether in the, the photographs of funeral programs and these things are really important.

And they’re increasingly important because we might have larger bodies of archives where our histories are hidden or much more difficult to get. I, the history that I’ve been able to gather and piece together come exactly from documents like this, to be able to tie together individuals into families, to tell larger stories and histories.

And it’s amazing, um, how you could take, you know, those very simple documents, pieces of information that might not seem to be import or have value. And, um, and to, to be able to utilize them, to, to create a story, a thread that, um, that is really important or significant, um, as McKenzie. Absolutely. And, you know, just listening to you all and thinking about, and I think Rachel, you said it so eloquently, this memory work, and, you know, it’s so important you, in so many ways, I mean, a lot of this work that’s being done is.

You know, helping folks, um, think through this idea around, um, the right to return. Like they’re using these archives in this history for other, uh, people they’re using, you know, this, this information to, um, get historical markers for their homes, you know, so that they will, you know, have a, a chance and, and staying and have their taxes lowered and all these things, you know, in, in their.

There are homes for the folks that want to, you know, stay. And so there’s all these ways in which, you know, the storytelling, this memory work is, is really, um, is activism, right? It’s a, a fight for social justice. It, you know, just me thinking about like, from a more kind of spiritual per and even one around just feeling loved and held, um, Being in spaces growing up in Austin and being the only low brown face anywhere, like for example, at symphony square.

And, um, but always filling this connection to the land, you know, where I was sitting the ground, the earth. And I always wondered about that. And then later decades later finding out that this whole home I’m looking at was, you know, Somebody, who of a black family who, you know, had done all of these amazing things in Austin.

And, you know, red river was a black area. Like all of these places that I would go and been named to feel like I shouldn’t be there, but those were our spaces. And even though there was this way in which I knew that, just think about how even more and empowered folks we beat. Right. It’s we went with that information.

So it’s just so much that has been. You know, lost and some of it intentionally and you know, so this work of just bringing all this back together. So, you know, my question around that for you all is, you know, what do you feel people’s responsibility are? Like what advice or what would you tell people? Not only the ones that are new into coming into to these communities, but people who have been, who are from here, who may not know this information, like how to begin to.

To learn and collect this information and, and do their own kind of, um, you know, search and exploration. I, well, that’s a big question, Stephanie, what is wrong? You’re just asking these huge, that’s an algorithm. But what I would is I think there has to be some personal responsibility and accountability it’s community to be, um, To practice always saying to yourself, like, where am I sitting?

What community is like, we don’t do that. Like in this household, we’re always training our kids to say where, you know, they get to think about like, where are you sitting? And we have had a really interesting dynamic in this city where the people that are there now, they there’s an own ownership component that comes with it.

Right. So, so I talk about when I’m over in the Leeville area, right. And I walk into the like, Good morning. Welcome. And I’m like, no, welcome to you actually, because my right, like welcome to you. Not, not, not the other way. Um, and just, just there’s that, that, that the cavalier we, we inhabited now. So it’s ours versus this was something before, and there’s an accountability as citizens.

All of us. To know what that is, and then bring that into the space. And there’s so many ways that you can do that in a way that strengthens it and doesn’t take away from it. So I think part of it’s like practicing our way through, like, what was this before it had to be somewhere poor. Cause there’s nowhere all the way fit into six miles.

Where did, where else were it? Right. And so I think there’s that opportunity. We just don’t do it. We don’t slow down on to do it. If we practicing it, it would be a natural part. We are. On, we just don’t slow down the move. So we talk about there a lot of rooms right before you sit down. What was that before?

What was that before? Absolutely. Thank you, Pam. I really appreciate. So being mentioned earlier about building, um, a culture of, of, um, curiosity, and I think that that has a lot to, that is really relevant and it’s. This conversation right now that people have, it seems like people have to be stimulated to be curious in order to want to know.

Um, which I mean is an approach. It’s now one that I would take, right? You come into a space, like you said, you wanna look around and understand before you pick up space. But, um, since that seems to be the, the society that we’re in. I feel like it’s been there have been some good examples of it being done well, um, through, I think a lot public arts, Stephanie, I know you’ve been involved with that with, um, local parks, thinking about their spaces and historic sites, reevaluating, what they’re doing to, um, create spaces and moments within those, those, and micro environments for people to peak curiosity and get people questioning and then point to, to more resources.

Um, I think continuing that work, but I do just echoing what’s that I do think that’s something that it begins where we are. Each of us has a responsibility, uh, not only for the spaces that we occupy, but as we are in community with each other, um, kind of collectively where we are and what doing, and who’s doing it, who’s documenting that.

Where, how will it live on, how will we tell this story? Um, Because, like I said, if we don’t shape the narrative, if we don’t tell our story and protect our story, as we wanted to, then when it’s out in other hands, we just don’t know what will happen. So no one loves us like us. You needs to always and achieve this very true.

Um, I think everyone just really hit the nail on the head as far as. You know, taking the ownership and, and being curious about, you know, where we are in a place and time what’s come before. Um, you know, and for me, just even thinking about. You know, wanting to know more about indigenous peoples. I mean, cuz all, they, they were just, you know, spraying out of the ground, who were the people that inhabited those spaces and, um, contributed to the built environment change and altered those environments for better or worse.

Um, and unfortunately for the black community for, um, the, the Mexican it’s been for, but how we capture those stories, um, and, and really. Reinsert ourselves into the narrative, right? Because history belongs to the victors and rarely, or have we been, you know, the victors. Um, but it it’s, you know, reshifting that narrative and that focus then to think about the history of why, um, these things have happened into, as I said, this reinsert, you know, ourselves in the narrative and take control.

Of that narrative to then take control of future preservation work, future memory work, um, as the case may, um, it’s really important and add anything here. Well, this is where our, you know, basically we’re all staying, you know, we should become, so it historians and, you know, starting. Not just with each other, which all of us are, but also our family members, our relatives, those funeral world programs, for instance, say those programs that might seem insignificant to a lot of people, but no, that, uh, funeral program gives you a history, a biography of our first, that person did what that person believed, where that person lived.

If nothing else. The dates that that person was born, the dates that person died, you know, this is, this is all, this is all history, an individual. So, you know, we need to start by, uh, by, by, by, by documenting, by even just, you know, keeping Upal program. That’s part of your history. I have, I have the diploma.

Thank goodness that that was kept by my grandmother. But the diploma that was awarded to my father when he was about seven years old or, or, or he was a little bit old, no, 1930. What about nine years old? Uh, because of, of, of good conduct, good penmanship. And he was awarded the diploma, uh, and that was like 1931.

And fortunately that was saved. Yeah. Um, amongst so many other other, uh, photos, of course, things like that. So, I mean, all of us are the stories. All of us are, uh, should, should, should, should take, should take these possessions that we have very serious, man. Doesn’t have to be, you know, the, the grand thing.

It can be those, those everyday moments create a history. They tell our story. And you never know what it is that you’re gonna find in those documents and, you know, with something like a, a good conduct or good in document from school that only, that also tells a story of that school, that institution, you know, at that time, you know, institutions and, um, places of learning that are no longer here.

So we have a documentation of those stories of that narrative as well. Um, and so thinking about, um, not only how. Within the individual or within the family, the stories that can be told or, um, you know, to which they can contribute, but you know, that broader, larger narrative, that bigger historic context.

Absolutely. This has been wonderful. So I have one last question and I’m gonna try it not to make it so big, cuz I think this one has potential going many ways. Um, but this, especially for our community based learning folks, And it is around how can local university, so university of Texas Houston tell to, um, St.

Edwards all the different universities, ACC and colleges, um, use serve its learning to support like these grassroots, um, preservation efforts, I guess they need to be made aware of it for one thing. I do think also that the, I mean, I am who I am. The archive can’t be left out of the equation as has been said already in, in this conversation history, didn’t start today when we opened our eyes.

Right? So even when work is focused on a particular time period or a particular issue, or a particular community, taking the opportunity to engage with what’s left from that time at our local repositories and libraries, there are such rich collections here in Austin. Such important work has been done already by colleagues of mine present in past to recover that work thoughtfully and carefully.

And so I would always encourage people to really place themselves in that history, by engaging what we know already as we continue the work, the grassroots work preservation is what really makes a difference. So do it first of all, but then also engage with the archive. Absolutely. And I mean, just, you know, coming from the university perspective, um, you know, having my students actually literally this morning in my African American experiences, an architecture class, um, it was our final day and I had students doing presentations on the research that they, they conducted over the semester.

Um, the required component of primary source research in done. Um, and just learning from them based on the work that we’ve done, um, you know, from conducting oral histories, for example, I had a group, um, working on the Alexander family farm, um, and speaking with descendants of that family, doing research on properties that were listed in the dream book in Houston.

For example, learning more about builders in Austin, primarily in the late 19th century, but moving into the 20th century, but also being forward, thinking of not just doing the research and being one and done with it, how can we use that research and that activity as a form of social justice? Is it a website that will help the Alexander family continue to maintain their property and fight against, um, You continued, uh, attempted domain for that property creating, um, a database of sorts, um, something not alike with Dr.

Roberts, who is a, um, an alum of the school of architecture, which he’s done with the freedom colonies project, but creating, um, you know, repositories for this kind of research, whether we’re talking about black builder in specific. And I think right now, um, is a really good time for historians, for academics to work with the students and pursue these positives activities because the students are thirsty, but if we don’t provide them with those opportunities to, um, to do this kind of research, um, and to be very open about it, be very transparent about that research, um, that it it’s not gonna be done.

And I think, um, you know, it’s a missed opportunity. So just to take. Advantage of those opportunities and not just at the higher learning level, but what kind of programming, although, you know, of course there powers that being grace entities, that would be both to this kind of thing, but, um, you know, from the indicate through 12, um, level, what kinds of, um, programming, teaching field trips, um, you know, aside the norms, can we offer, um, students that then, you know, stay within their, their minds, stay in their experience and that will contribute.

To the kind of work that they might do, um, in their community starting to ask family members about family history. What’s this building that used to be here, or I learned this in school, or I heard this, um, kind of thing and being able to carry that with them, um, through their experiences, um, through school and, and beyond, uh, is, is really important as well.

And so, um, For my part, uh, you know, and, and really looking for, and seeking these kinds of community, um, relationships and to know really what is it, you know, what, what kind of. Projects of research that is needed in the community. What, what kind of, you know, public programming, um, or, you know, things that, that students can create that will assist, um, communities and preserving their structures, telling their stories and so on and so forth.

Um, so, um, you know, take advantage of that definitely, but also I think it’s important for all of us to figure out then. How to use these things and how to put them together, because there are lots of different institutions, organizations, and whatnot, we who are doing the memory work. Um, but how can we collectively make that available and accessible?

Um, accessibility, I think is succeeding not only for the community, but for society at large to about, um, altered. I think that. Um, you know, a site like the chase building, um, and the programming of the center for engagement, um, will be really crucial, really important for, uh, really helping to foster these kinds of relationships.

Anybody else wanna add anything? I don’t, I, I was gonna yield lot. Cause again, that is perfect. I I’m God, nothing, but I will say this, we talked a lot about the summer team in these situations where we’re convening. Opportunity to learn in educational settings, whatever that might be. I’m talking about the halt in coll on there’s a missed opportunity.

I think about when you are, um, in the space of learning about our history in the space about learning about, um, Uh, what we need to preserve to talk about that there are some transferable skills that go hit back when you get in that space. Right? So we don’t always talk about what that does for critical thinking or how storytelling, in my opinion is a hard skill.

It’s not a sauce, right? You could transfer that into a variety of ways, whether it’s a job. And sometimes I think you, this an opportunity in educational setting to talk about this, this, this transfer the skill and type. How we present. It is one thing. What, what, how do we leverage? What can, where you can parlay in that experience, I think is a missed opportunity.

So I always encourage people to think about, like, think about what you’re gonna tell ’em to think about what they get out of, out of you telling them they’re think about what skills then to be extracted in any set by pray of learning, not your history. So that’s all I add. Otherwise, everybody, you know, they, everybody, yes.

I’ve always loving. No, thank you all so much for that, for this whole conversation. Um, I’m really grateful. I’m, I’m, you know, I’m full and I’m sure that’s gonna be the same for many other folks. We, this work is, is, can be difficult and, and challenging as you all know. And so this is. Having folks kind of encourage you and is really important.

So thank you all so much. And I did want to mention that there’s several projects that we are all in collaboration with in one way or the other that will begin to roll out and please support and follow each of our guests. Um, amazing work that they’re doing and Jeremy, I will bring you back. So first, let me off my, thanks to our panelists.

Appreciate y’all good snap claps. Thank you for y’all. I see. And then also, uh, to our moderator, Stephanie, thank you for kind of leading us and guidance in the discussion today. Big, thanks to you as well. And behind the scenes again, Jason, thank you for holding it down, keeping it one, uh, bringing people on and off stage.

We really appreciate your support in that. This conversation was, was really great, you know, and I thank you for allowing me to be privy to the conversation. Oftentimes we don’t get to hear about these histories. Sometimes we regulate them to the past as if they don’t live with us today, um, in our architecture, in our whole histories and the stories that we tell.

Um, but I hope from this, we see that, um, these lived experiences are always in process. We’re always in the process of become coming and getting to know and learning about, um, that which came before is a, which is shaping our current room. So thank you off for that. And with that, we have more conversations to come in the future.

So thank you all for joining us today. All right. Thank you. My pleasure time. Thanks for joining us in this important conversation about community engagement and the historic preservation of black history in Austin. Our next episodes will focus on intersectionality and community engaged, teaching, learning, and research, leading up to our community based learning symposium this fall until then keep up with the center for community engagement on social media at, at UT underscore CCE on Twitter and Instagram at U Texas CCE on Facebook.

Or visit our website. Diversity U Texas EDU community engagement.