Episode 10 – Podcast hosts Natosha Daniels and Mallory Lineberger discuss intersectionality in community engaged teaching and research with Dr. Michael A. Goodman

Natosha: Welcome to the bridge of podcasts from the division of diversity and community engagement at the university of Texas at Austin, where we share stories and best practices from UT instructors connect on campus learning and research with real world community projects. And this episode, we will be in conversation with one of our favorite professors, Michael, a Goodman about how his research connects to the. Dr. Michael at Goodman, he him is a higher education student affairs educator whose research focuses on student governance and involvement. The admin’s research involves college student government and sorority fraternity life, including equity and justice issues, of new professionals, queer students, social justice, social media answers, sorority and fraternity life and bias response sorority and fraternity.

Mallory: Dr. Goodman, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re really excited about this conversation. We always love talking to you. For people who are listening, Dr. Goodman was our professor for of education. So we’ve talked a lot about, How we approach research and how that research interacts with the community and how we can all do that responsibly in a way that respects the communities that we’re working with.

So Dr. Goodman welcome

Michael: thank you

Mallory: tell us just a little bit about your research interests what brought you to.

Michael: Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. First of all, and I miss having you all in class. So I definitely that every day, this semester, but I hope you’re having good semesters and all of that, I came to UT with you all, you know, I started in August, 2021. And a big part of what brought me to UT was this type of faculty appointment that I’m in the opportunity to be a professor of practice, which focuses on professional track clinical types of experiences.

And so I’ve worked in higher ed for years. I’ve worked in multiple functional areas and students. Different higher ed administrative roles. And I really wanted to.

be able to be in a faculty role where that was also valued and that could show up in how I, I teach how I research, how I advise students. And so a big part of my, faculty pedagogies really are rooted in that I was a practitioner for many years.

And so UT really honored that with the to be in this role. I just knew I had to take advantage of it. And what got me from the DMV area in the mid Atlantic down to Texas. So, it’s already very hot here. So now I’m wondering if I made the right decision, but I think so far, I think so far I have.

but yeah, so in terms of my research, you know, a big part of my research really focuses on college student experiences in higher education and in particular. College student involvement, college student leadership. And I’m really focused in onset of these spaces where college student leaders have a lot of capital on campus.

And so thinking about college student government as one entity that yields a ton of power for students, and in particular, some of my research on the student government presidency. You know, is what I’ve found in my research is a form of public office that student government presidents and student government executives really are doing public official type of work, representing their peers, doing leadership high level decision-making and more.

And then we also look at fraternities and sororities because historically they’ve been around in higher education for generations and centuries. But also they’re not without many issues and, fraternities and sororities, you know, students. Gained lots of attention lots of power on campus.

And yet still there are significant equity issues. There are significant justice issues when we start to think about not even just the students themselves, but their organizations, the professionals who support them, and then the communities that their behavior often reverberates into.

And so I find that those two real paths within college student involvement in governance have piqued my interest and has been really like the big part of my research agenda over the past seven.

Natosha: Thank you so much for explaining that. And I echo what Mallory said. I miss you so much every day.

Michael: Oh, thanks.

Natosha: Can you tell us about, the work in the community? Cause I understand you’re working with students in student government but specifically how are you connecting them to the community and or how is the community guiding.

Michael: Yeah, most definitely. I mean, I think a big part of student government. Is really rooted in power, but also representative leadership. And so a lot of my work is focused on practical applications to real world, real search situations, scenarios that students can apply. And so it’s always so interesting to me to have a student government or executive or even advise.

Reach out and say, Hey, I read this article you wrote, and it really resonated with me. And some of your recommendations and implications are things that I can absolutely do. And so, for example, did a study a couple of years ago about student government presidents who work former student government presidents, who work in higher education in student affairs.

And a lot of folks shared that the, the experiences that I found in my study were ones that resonated with them. And so I often share with folks that. Again, coming back to that public office piece that you have this representative leadership, you have this space much, like you have a city council person who represents your college town or much like you have, you know, state representatives and a mayor like that.

That same structure exists in college student government. And so I would argue in my research would argue that student government in so many ways is, a community. Based experience that it’s not just about leading students that are on campus, but it’s also about those, you know, quote unquote town gown, relationships that as much as what’s happening on campus matters.

So too does what’s happening off campus. And, and also how students give back. I think that’s another big part of it that with that leadership comes great responsibility. And my work actually, and the T the daily texts, and actually just wrote about one of my recent articles about students who experienced multiple marginalizations within a public office, and then reflections that they had when they were in student government.

This other piece that’s emerging for me is that student government represented. Are also deeply embedded in local city and even state politics. And these positions are incredibly political. And so it’s not uncommon to see student government folks at a state Capitol lobbying. It’s not uncommon to see students working with community activists to make some change on campus.

I think about in 2020, the student government president at the university of Minnesota. Working with her legislative body address, you know, policing on campus, thinking about in particular, all that was going on, I’m in Minneapolis at the time, but that significance of, we’re not just talking about, policing on campus and you know that’s a debate.

We can certainly engage, but we’re talking about the local city police. That revolves around and works in tandem with our community. And so the fact that a student government can legislate, or can debate these real, real massive, implications that happen right off campus, are significant.

So you see a student government president engaging with a chief of police, or you see a student government president engaging with, against state representatives, state senators in this way of decision-making. It’s a reminder of the importance of that role, but also that there can’t be a taken for granted newness, that often happens with administrators to students.

Natosha: I’m so glad that you said that because I think what you’re saying right now really speaks to their relevant, to the work that you’re doing.

And it’s something that we don’t always think about. Like we don’t naturally make that connection. I’m just so glad that you’re here to provide that context for us.

Michael: Natasha, that, I appreciate you bringing that up in that reflection. Cause I often think about that too, you know, with regards to. Student government there for years, there was this kind of discourse around college students. You know, that it’s a, it’s like an event planning place, like thinking about a high school student council where like they may be planned prom or they plan senior week.

And then, you know, our college student, government’s the same thing. And actually. Nowadays, I would argue that both have significant influence and power. I mean, think about in K-12 how much is happening at school boards right now, many of these school boards actually have student representatives sitting on their school board, or at least confer with the school district or some sort of student leadership group.

And sometimes they confer in helpful ways. Sometimes they. But ultimately there’s this still the student voice, the student input, the student presence. And so I, I often say to people like that a student government, even in high schools is not to be minimized, even though it’s easy to think, oh, well this is just this group that comes together.

And maybe they pass a resolution that, you know, this specific thing should change, but maybe they don’t actually change. and yet we’re seeing these massive decisions happening by student governments across the U S and they’re creating real change, or at least real buzz on their campus that also reverberates and is in tandem with their local community.

Sorry, I just wanted to add that piece cause you certainly sparked thought. Just again, thinking even that inclusion of high schools and value of a high school student leadership space or student involvement in governance in that K to 12.

Mallory: Thank you so much for adding that. Speaking of sparking things, it kind of sparked something for me. And you’re talking about not only K-12 student government and the connections to community, but obviously higher ed, student government and connections to community.

And these very real Leadership roles and interactions that they’re having with community leaders, so, I wanted to ask you about, because I think one of the articles that you shared with us , was discussing student government then actually go on to be influential and other context,

Michael: Yeah.

Mallory: local politics or even state or national politics. Could you tell us a little bit more about.

Michael: Yeah, definitely. So I mean, in so many ways, college student government is a training ground. It’s a training ground for post-college public office. I mean, student government it’s even sometimes very explicitly is a microcosm of larger U S political structures. Some student governments even have as rigid as a Senate and a house of representatives and they follow, you know, the.

Robert’s rules of order, which we could also debate those things that are route the systems instructors are also rooted in whiteness, which I think in a lot of ways keeps some of these entities from progressing, but that I’ll digress on that. think ultimately the reality of this being a training ground or a preparative space also begs the question of who then gets to be in student government.

And a lot of cases could also signal who then gets to be in public. Who can afford to run a campaign who can afford to take time away from work? I mean, some of the folks I interviewed in my on former student government officers in post-college public office, their roles, it be local, County state those roles.

Some of them are not paid. And so they actually have to maintain a job that has some sentiment of flexibility to be able to even do that. And that’s very similar to college where there’s institutions that are debating. Shouldn’t student government executives be paid, or should they get some sort of compensation?

I mean, UT Austin has had a lot of scandal for lack of a better term this year, where there were questions related to should student government officials get some sort of compensation. And so I think that ultimately connects very deeply to the privilege of being in public. The privilege of being able to work 20 or so hours a week, plus I’m even more than that in a student leadership role and to not have to be able to have another job to pay for school or have other responsibilities for family community.

The privileging of those leadership spaces is something that really interesting to me and has come through significantly. But back to your point about this kind of like connection or this training ground, I think what’s also interesting is it’s not even just solely about running for office, but that student government, these folks who were a part of my study, These individuals also were interested in being, before they ran for public office, some of them and being embedded in the community at some, doing grassroots activism, some working on campaigns, some doing lobbying,, some participating in programs like AmeriCorps.

And so it was a very interesting connection to, to think about. Maybe if we step back from public. The idea of public service. And I think that was something that really was resonating for was that this is an act of service that post-college experiences were an act of service, but also, that college experience, it was a service to the institution and a service to their community of students, faculty, staff, and the surrounding community.

Natosha: First of all, I want to give like a million snaps. So what you said about like shifting to public service,

You said something about who gets to be in these spaces, who gets to hold these roles. I know a lot of your works, focuses on intersectionality and you work a lot with, queer students and their roles in the student, government

Michael: Okay.

Natosha: As we look to our community-based learning supposing in the fall, we’re focusing on intersectionality as a framework for more inclusive community engaged teaching learning and research

and I want you to speak to the intersectionality in the groups that you’re working with and the research that you’re doing and talk about what intersectionality means to you.

Michael: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one important thing that I conscious of so deeply is the difference between intersectionality when we’re thinking about specifically interlocking systems of oppression and then intersecting identities. So it’s one thing for me to say,, gay white guy, those identities are certainly intersecting.

And we talk about intersectionality. We have to let the root in the core of that, be thinking about those systems of oppression that exists as interlocking. And so I think specifically about those women of color who run for student government, or who are first, you know, I just saw a story yesterday about the university of Delaware.

First woman, black student government president at the university of Delaware, a huge state school. A very old state school. And so what is her experience? You know, not just as a black student, who’s student government president, but as a black woman and how those systems of oppression interlock in her experience.

And at an institution that maybe it wasn’t set up for her, and thinking about, you know, higher education history. So. I just wanted to disclaim that, but in terms of my own work, you know, it’s so important for me to think about not just queer manifestations that they’re experienced in leadership roles, but also how those are racialized and how gender plays a role as well.

And so I think something that I often tend to do is, you know, especially when I’m researching my previous research on gay men student, It mattered just as much to me to talk about, their gay or their queer identity, as I did, to also make sure that I was holding space for them to talk about the rate that gender and sexuality are racialized.

And so for the men of color in my study it was very interesting. Each of them talked about, they actually gave him. They had to work two to 10 times harder than their white peers to be perceived as competent or to succeed or to thrive or be effective in their student government roles. And on the flip side of that, the white men in the study talked about their acknowledgements of lightness.

You know, participants talked about meeting with administrators and they were with students of color. So the white participants there with students of color or students of color, if they’re with whites, Watching administrators interact with, or make eye contact more with the white men, you know, regardless of their sexuality or thinking about transitions and campaigns.

There are some scholars who have talked about this quote unquote chilly climate and boys club that is. At play in student government for women and in particular women of color. And I think about this too, that lot of that, what I’m saying is also from a very PWI perspective, but we could also think about some of the research out there.

Travis Smith from the university of Florida and some others Hardaway at all is an article that I often reference looking at specifically the race gendered experiences of black. At historically black colleges and universities and their experiences with student government. And so talking about something like intersectionality, we think about, while race may be a more salient identity for students, black students in particular at HBCUs to be a woman or to be a queer student, or to have a visual disability might complicate that in a space like an HBCU.

So when we start to think about student government beyond the PWI, I think that historically a lot of student government reasons. Has been really grounded on this brown and white institution, but student governments exist everywhere. They exist on all types of colleges and universities. And so I appreciate those scholars who are talking about the ways leadership and in particular identity is complicated in the student government space at multiple institution types that’s so important for the future of research on this area.

Mallory: Dr. Goodman. I feel like everything that you’re saying, like just your thoughtfulness and your, the way in which you are so straightforward in calling out whiteness and institutions, I think it is so important.

And something that, unfortunately is not necessarily All that. I mean, if I think it’s common, maybe a little bit more common in the spaces we’re holding in, the classes that, that we’re taking, an education policy, a lot of it’s takes, a more critical lens to things, but I just, I always appreciate, you naming the things that are impacting the way that students, whether it’s the way that students are maybe approaching their leadership or whether it’s the way that they’re approaching.

They’re writing. And so thank you for that. I just love listening to you talk about your research.

Michael: I was just going to say Mallory. I think that another part of this too, is like considering, know, the history of higher education who higher education was built for and built by if we want to talk about that too. The element that is student government, you know, Those structures are so totally at play in the us as well.

So we think about why we’re still seeing all of these, the first ever Senator who identifies in this way or the first governor or that we’re hearing you seeing states still not have representation that is reflected in their state. That is so totally at play with student government as well. And so I think what’s so interesting.

His leadership there, there were some articles a couple of years ago that had kind of like been a commentary on like leadership education or leadership in general, the study of, or the discussion of it comes from a very white perspective how unfair that is in the context of who students are today.

Three now who students are tomorrow, who’s coming to higher ed, the changing demographics of higher education. And are we seeing those same changing demographics that administrators and trustees in the local officials who actually vote on state budgets, those kinds of things in those kinds of questions.

I really important. All of that same thought can trickle all the way down to student government. I mean, it really totally is a microcosm of larger political structures. And I think that’s been even just for me, who was a student body president a long, long time ago of my undergraduate institution. I didn’t get it at the time.

I was, I’m also a white guy, so I probably. Got a lot of things differently and had a lot of different experiences because of those privileges that were afforded to me. And at the same time now in my research, I can’t help, but only a focus on that in a lot of ways, because those systems of oppression are really leaving a lot of great leaders to not actually elevate into those top spots based on the campus, based on the systems, based on the structure.

Anyway, wanted to add that note and I appreciate what you said, Malik.

Mallory: Thank you so much, Dr. Goodman. Everything you say, I’m just hanging on your every word. So of your research and how passionate you are your research, are there any current projects that you’re working on that you’re really excited about or something that you’re looking forward to starting?

What’s going on in your research?

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I am filled with ideas and that’s to a fault at the moment. You both know that I like want to do more things than I ever could. But I would say the two big ones that I’m really. Sitting with is one that I just wrapped up with some colleagues from different institutions, where we looked at student government platforms.

So student campaigns from publicly available materials, and we did a critical discourse analysis looking at those materials through the lens of neo-liberalism. and in particular asking that question of, in what ways are student government platforms signaling, neoliberal tenants. And it was a very interesting study just to see how students describe essentially the type of work they would do if they were elected that in some ways is actually the responsibility of the institution.

And so students talked about addressing library hours, mental health services, transportation. Students campaigned on bringing Spotify or Hulu to campus or things like that, which again, fills this kind of capitalist mindset that, that is deeply I did in higher education. And yet asking that question of are these actually the responsibility of the institution and yet.

Taking these up and then giving institutions and out from having to work on transportation issues and mental health service providing and more. And so I think that’s one really interesting thing that I am working on right now with some colleagues and then another, that I’d like to do in the next year, considering midterm elections.

And then, You know, again in 2024 for the, in the U S primary elections, about. Queer student experiences in student government and states where there is a tense and hostile climate for queer people. I think we could probably argue that many states, most states, unfortunately, but in these states where there is some anti-trans legislation or where they’re literally legislating what can be said in classrooms and what cannot be set in classrooms.

And so I’m really interested in the future and looking at queer student government experienced queer students who are involved in student government and their experiences. Those interactions with state legislators. You know, these schools and states have higher education day at the Capitol, and they have liaison legislative liaisons that get paid for.

Money and they pour lots of resources into this. And so I’d like to experience that, or I’d like to explore the experience of these students with identifying as queer, but also operating as a leadership in this leadership way as a public servant at odds with their institution or their state supporting these anti-trans or, anti queer legislative agenda.

Texas is a great example of that. Thinking about the anti-trans directive that came out, a couple months ago. And then the question. In what ways has the institution spoken out against that? have they, I think, like they have not, that more messages perhaps have been submitted, you know, around things like tenure or other legislative decisions, but the question might be.

We’ll student government take that up. So if the institution’s not saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. We, as an institution, don’t stand for this. We train the next social workers. We train the next teachers. We train the next, fill in the blank. And that’s not something that, that lives by our values, but often student governments will pass resolutions and say, well that we didn’t say that.

And so again, I might go back to even my other study, this idea of, in what ways are student governments actually taking up the work that the institution and its administrators.

Natosha: You hit on so many things. I know.

Mallory: I’m just sitting here, like processing all of that. I’m like loud, loud.

Michael: Just going to say a new legislative session, you know, will begin and there will be all of that attention and all of that and attention, meaning like lobbying and messages and statements and people coming to campus and coming to the Capitol and.

Like other big institutions that are in a capital city, you can see the Capitol from our campus. And that is not lost on me. That, that visual is also lot of ways also kind of philosophical that there has to be this kind of transference between the two of those.

And that can be really.

good, but it can also be really bad. And so I think a lot about the way again, student government then fills that void at the institutions, failing students by not speaking up about something as it relates to equity or as it relates to justice.

Natosha: You spoke on, the changing demographics of college students, but that not being represented in the leadership higher education. And, and then you spoke also to the students taking on roles that are really the responsibility of the Institute. I’m guessing you’re like making that connection, like assuming, because we don’t have people that really represent.

And I say we, as a black woman in this space, there are very few of us here to represent us in leadership. And if you’re open to this question, if you want to talk about like the nuance of navigating your identity an openly gay professor, which I think is amazing because.

You’re the first I’ve had. And I hope, hopefully not the last navigating that space and like how it influences your pedagogy. Y’all I can’t talk, know what I’m trying to say,

Michael: yeah. got you to tell us, I appreciate that question. Cause I think about, you know, some ways what’s really interesting for me is not just being an openly gay. Person and work, but also that my research agenda includes openness as well, that in some ways also forces me to research about my own identity and identity that I share oftentimes with my participants or an identity I share that is maybe something I’m examining having to sit with those findings, whether they’re good or bad or something in between.

and so I think for me, what’s been just really interesting is how I show up for queer. I I’ve really been thinking a lot about how do I first, I guess take care of myself. So when we think about messages or signals that are maybe don’t anti queer in some way, How do I make sure I’m taking care of myself and then how can I also take care of the students in the community I’m not trans.

And, and that’s important for me to know, because something like an anti-trans directive will hit me differently than it does a trans student. But what I can do is create a whole bunch of space for trans students to come to me and to hold space for trans students, to affirm trans students, to try to lift up their voices.

Without them having to disclose or out themselves or, or have those difficult conversations again at the cost of their labor and their livelihood, really. And so I think that’s something that I’ve been really paying a lot of attention to. I’m also trying really hard to connect with other queer spaces on campus.

I think that has been something. That has been really important for me is to find the other queer faculty members to find those folks and to be in community with them whenever I can. And however I can, because as you all know, community matters in these academic institutions and it’s it’s a method of survival in a lot of ways.

A lot about how I consume Articles literature, scholarship the news, but also how I assign in my classes, I’m teaching this class this summer about crisis emergencies and education. one of the weeks that we were deciding is thinking about racial climate as a crisis.

And I had to step back for a moment and ask like, am I asking students to also. Experienced trauma by reading some of these articles or reading some of these current events and then be forced to talk about it in class. And so relating that to some articles or things that I might assign that are about queer students.

I’m also trying to be reminded of that. And what ways might a learning laboratory to talk about queer student experiences or to teach higher education or student affairs with a queer lens impact me when I’m trying to still hold space for learning, but at the same time, the line between learning and trauma can be quite thin.

And so I think those are other ways that I’m trying to make sure that I’m again, attending to myself so that I can also be supportive and present for students. and it’s sometimes also not easy, it’s, not just here at UT, but at other institutions I’ve been where folks love to. To assume a heteronormative space on their community, the department, the students, the, their peers.

And so I try also my hardest to, if not in a public forum, to have one-on-one conversations with people where I say, Hey, and an example you use in that. you. said husband or wife, but, you know, I appreciate that. And also remember that some folks don’t identify as a husband or a wife, or you use him slash her in all of your materials.

What if you said they or them, or what if you just sent the student or the person? So thinking about do gendering the way we speak and I think at a place. Texas. That’s very interesting because it’s a very man in sir kind of place. so what might it mean also to give folks a little bit of grace while also consistently reminding them and showing up with that idea of we have to unlearn things to be better for our communities.

And so I try my hardest to be that person as well. Again, not always, sometimes it’s not always in a public space. Sometimes it’s a one-on-one or email after a meeting, but I think that’s, I take that as a responsibility as well.

Natosha: I just wanted to say thank you for thinking of students. Like when you assign these readings, There have been more than a few readings that I’ve been assigned that are quite triggering as a black woman and to like constantly have to go into class and read more and more and more about how my life make fiscal sense.

It’s a lot like I, and I know and then, like you said, what you said about community. I think it’s so important that I’m fortunate that I have other people in my cohort that I can like. Vent to after I’m

To like, read these things that invalidate my life. And I think it’s so critical that you’re saying what you’re saying, because think other professors can benefit from hearing that because I know many of the professors do not look like

and they’ve never had to really consider what it is.

To assign readings that do that because, I mean, it’s just not a part of their daily consciousness, but just wanted to throw that out there. We can cut this out, but Mallory.

Mallory: I don’t think that we should cut it out. I think what you said is really important and You know, I’m just sitting here also reflecting Natasha thinking about the things like you shared with me and other classmates have shared with me that are connecting to what Dr. Goodman is saying about being so thoughtful in the way in which he approaches not only assignments, but readings.

And also I think that one of the things that You know, we as a cohort and also the higher education leadership cohort that was in our class last semester that we just really appreciate it and allowed us to create this bond was holding space and making and a classroom environment where we can discuss these, really, you know, difficult personal topics.

And you led by example and creating that space for us to discuss these things. and also I think that you gave us a very good example, well as new PhD students in how to care for ourselves and how to advocate for ourselves and in the way in which you were flexible on assignments and, allowed us to really kind of, I dunno, make things our own.

And I think I’m just kind of processing all of this and thinking about like important that is in a good professor and a good educator and, you know, a good, I think a good researcher too. And so I just wanted to say thank you for that, because I think that a lot of us have been able to.

Because of that space, not only have we had a very good working relationship as colleagues, as students. But I think we’ve also been able to go into our other classes with a good critical lens, but also with the way in which can and take care of ourselves and realize that academia.

We all know is, can be a very harmful place, especially for who have, who hold marginalized identities. And I’m not sure that everyone is as thoughtful as you’ve been. I just wanted to say, thank you for that. And I hope that, when you’re talking about advocating for elevating these ideas with other faculty members, I think also as a student, thank you for that as well, because I think that’s really important.

And it’s something that I think we, as students are not sure because of the power dynamics.

Michael: Yeah.

Mallory: is it okay to step in and say, when is it not okay to step in and say, this is wrong. What you’ve said is Is upsetting or is not respecting someone’s lived experience. So I don’t know if we need to include all of that as well, but just you, Dr.

Goodman, as a person, as a professor, you have, I think you have done such a great job leading by example. I just really appreciate that because I think that we’ve all learned. A lot about how to navigate academia and our potential. Research agendas and potential career trajectories, by you being so open with us.

Michael: What I appreciate that. And that is like way too kind. It was a collaborative space. You know, I think that’s something that I’m trying to remember too, is that we are in together. Like I’m not just like the Sage on the stage who pours into you, and then you can only find me in office hours.

And I also think that is a that’s there’s labor in that too. And so I always have to recognize I am also a white man who feels like, in some spaces, this institution was set up for me. And so I think it’s a little bit easier for me based on those privileges to be able to. Say controversial things or have a, you know, have a teaching pedagogy that may be unconventional or an advising style that’s unconventional.

But at the same time, I believe that a future of higher education where we all can do that, where we can all be those people for students and that power can be something that we share and we toss around. That doesn’t have to be yielded for just one person or for just the tenured person.

And, actually just this week realized I’m teaching a piss demologies of research again in the fall, I’m really excited for because I’m not a tenure track professor. And I think those kinds of research spaces are typically reserved for those whose faculty appointment is very rooted in a research space.

And it’s important for me to note. My experience, my work experience, my research training, all of those things make me still a really great teacher. I don’t have to just be a certain kind of faculty member to teach certain kinds of classes. And so that’s another thing I want to instill in students is that reality of there are different ways to be an academic or there are different ways to operate in academia.

That I think nowadays is a lot more clear than were. Was many years ago, but I think it will only continue to be clear, you know, as you all progress through your studies and your dissertation. And, when I get to call you doctor and celebrate all of those good things, but I think that we do that reciprocal thing where like you now then get to pay it forward when you teach your next class or when you take on a doctoral student advisor advisee, or when you do your next research study, I’m hopeful that’s the space I can take.

And I think that’s helpful space to take up

Natosha: Yeah, it just, I just wanted to throw out there that UT probably messed up because now the bar has been set. This is what I expect.

Michael: And you absolutely should expect that. You know, we had conversations last semester about things like updating syllabi, the value of it’s okay. For me to reading, because I just read something that was published in 2021. I think that’s another part of our field in our profession that has to change is, and especially back to this community piece, like if we really want to talk about research, Humans and students and communities today are we have to have the most updated.

Literature that’s coming out there. And so I think that’s such a responsibility of academics to be reading still. And I think sometimes the system of higher ed almost enables someone to once they’ve reached certain peaks or once they have a really well-developed plastic taught a couple of times that maybe they swap one or two articles in and out, and then they call it quits.

But I would argue that you should flip a lot of your class every single semester. Even if you’re teaching the same class every year, because new articles come out and some of those new art. Complicate the things that you’re asking students to read about. And so we should be able to engage in that.

And so I think that for me is like to your point of Tasha, I want y’all to have that high standard. And I have that high standard of my peers, you know,

Natosha: Oh,

Mallory: Yes.

Natosha: . what is the role of storytelling and connecting academia with marginalized?

Michael: I think that storytelling is so imperative because that is also how we pass generational knowledge. That’s how he passed out. It’s like family heirlooms don’t have to be a physical, tangible thing. They can also be. Memories and stories and experiences and languages and perspectives. And I think in academia, especially as we consider marginalized communities, I think storytelling also plays a huge role in different research, pedagogies and different ways that folks have come to do their research.

So I think for me, I know y’all know this about me. I’m a qualitative researcher. I will dip a toe like a single toe into quantitative research, but I like to really reside in, sit deeply. Qualitative spaces because I do value that storytelling opportunity. And I think for me as someone who identifies as gay I’ve purchased, painted in, in surveys, I participated in mixed methods studies.

I participated in qualitative studies and I always feel most fulfilled after, research that asks about my experiences and it asks about my there’s a certain environments or certain things I feel fulfilled when I’m able to articulate. What that experience was like for me, in my own words and with my own memories and with my own perspectives.

And so I find that to be something that is essential in higher education, that we also have to value storytelling as a mode of research and as a method for understanding humans experiences. Of years ago, I was president of the grad student government at the university of Maryland when I was a PhD student.

remember sitting across from the university of Minnesota. Who said to me, we only care about quantitative research. I just want a one-page memo on the specific numbers that can help inform this decision. We were talking about this major decision about collective bargaining, unionizing, things like that.

And I sat back because I just thought if you’re telling me you only care about numbers, what are you also telling me about my dissertation path, which was going to be a phenomenological study, which was a phenomenological. What are you telling me about all the methods classes I took related to qualitative research.

And so this administrator, and we kind of went back and forth a little bit about the value of research types, and he tried to kind of, know, step back and say, well, I’m not saying that’s what I think, but that’s what the field values. I find that to be an issue when some of our senior administrators are only valuing quantitative research.

Not that quantitative research doesn’t tell a story because there’s certainly storytelling that can happen in quantitative research. But I also. To fully lean into that type of research, misses the opportunity for people in particular folks with marginalized identities to share Intel and translate those stories for generations and generations to come.

also think a little bit just lastly, about this question. I think a lot about the idea of what it means to experience marginalization. And the history of research that is often white men telling the stories of people who are marginalized? So think about like historical ethnographies or the idea of stepping into a community and then writing about them.

I mean, the discourse, you know, as we think about, critical race area is one example, like this idea of how. Allow people of color to be at the center of history and to be able to tell history from their vantage point, rather than the, especially in the U S the history told by white folks and in particular white men, that matters significantly to, to be able to hear stories from the eye, the limp perspective, rather than some.

Watching from above or some person interpreting through their own lens. And so I think that, that there has to be this continued commitment to that being such a value in such a stronghold and how we research and not to be seen as some niche area. Not to be seen as some like, some special research topic.

Like, no, this is a valued and valid research pathway and also a valid way to be able to lift up stories into our work, into our policies and then our classrooms.

Natosha: I know I told you that was the last question, but you sparked something for me, when you said that, because during a piss homologies we talked about, well, who should be doing the

And

Mallory: Yeah.

Natosha: to, I want you to maybe speak on that, because like you said, like when you’re telling someone else’s narrative, it’s different if you are a part of that community.

maybe like talk about how you feel about who should be doing the research on what community.

Michael: Yeah, this is, I mean, it’s such a hard question, right? There’s a level of cultural competence that I believe can allow a researcher to be informed, to do research that is very intersectional and does have come from multiple vantage points. But I also think there are savvy, especially within qualitative research.

There are some parts of our identity that can be only told through having that same lived experience. And so I think it’s a really different. Question to answer, which is why I asked you all that question in class, because it’s something I want you to continue to sit with. As you move into your own research endeavors, I would lean toward the reality of we can research people and then we can research people far and wide and populations, but to best do that and to do that authentically, you have to have some sort of community-based approach.

You have to have some sort of cultural. You can’t just wake up and say, I want to research this specific population because I’m just curious about their Linux. It’s thing. It’s another, it’s actually say I’m invested in this community. I’m giving back to this community in lots of ways. I am supporting this community in lots of ways.

And I understand as much as I’m able with my identities that don’t align to understand or interpret the experiences of this community. And perhaps I, then we’ll pick a research methodology. That aligns with me being able to let individuals tell their stories. And I’m nearly putting those into some sort of a research flow versus again, kind of like taking an interpreting and kind of.

Paraphrasing folks’ thoughts. Sometimes paraphrasing actually eliminates language and actually eliminates dialect and eliminates cultural references. I think that all of that causal competence really matters. I still go back to the responsible, I don’t actually know the answer to who gets to or who should rather, because I think everyone gets to, as we see, but who should is a really difficult conversation.

And I think that’s something I even grappled with sometimes, you know, I think that has even shaped some of my research collaborations. Like I think about a recent study that I did on queer and trans student labor. And my research partner identifies as trans. And it was really important for us to be able to say, we both understand these populations maybe differently because we both identified differently, but we understand these populations and are working together to do this research study.

And. And park, giving back to the community by saying here’s what we learned about this community. the community that we both belong to in different ways. Does that mean that someone who doesn’t identify as queer and trans. Can’t or won’t do a study on queer and trans labor. No, but I wonder about the authenticity or the way that they’re participants with care or understanding participants’ responses.

Without that additional cultural competency that I think is like absolutely required to be able to engage across race across gender, across class sexuality more.

Mallory: Thank you so much, Dr. Goodman. I know that we could probably, we could talk for hours about your research and we really appreciate your time today and we appreciate your honesty and you know, You being yourself and giving us yourself in this time.

I think that the way that you conduct your class, the way you conduct your research could be a very good example to other professors at the university of Texas and elsewhere. And so we appreciate your time and we’re glad that we can elevate your research through this podcast.

So thank you so much for joining us.

Michael: Of course, thank you both so much. And thanks for the great questions and great engagement. honored to be with you all

Mallory: Well, we, yeah, thank you so much. We miss you in class and we’re all just thinking about how we can. Rearrange our schedules to take any class that you offer.

Michael: Oh my gosh. I would love that.

Mallory: Thank you so much, everyone for joining us for this conversation with Dr. Michael Aikmen assistant professor of practice and educational leadership and policy and the program for higher education leadership in the college of education. Our next episodes, we’ll continue to focus on intersectionality.

And community engaged, teaching, learning, and research. Leading up to our community-based learning symposium this fall until then keep up with the center for community engagement on social media at UT underscore CCE on Twitter and Instagram and at U Texas CCE on Facebook. Or visit our website diversity dot U texas.edu/community.