May 11th, 2021 – Second Reading Podcast

[0:00:00 Introduction] Welcome to the second reading podcast from the University of texas at Austin. The republicans were in the Democratic Party because there was only one party. So I tell people on a regular basis, there is still a land of opportunity in America. It’s called texas. The problem is these departures from the constitution, they have become the norm at what point must a female senator raise her hand or her voice to be recognized over the male colleagues in the room.

[0:00:35 Jim] and welcome back to the second reading podcast for the week of May 11th or so, 2021. I’m Jim Henson, director of the texas politics project at the University of texas at Austin. And today I’m joined again by Josh Blank, Research director for the texas politics project. Welcome back, Josh!

[0:00:54 Joshua] Thanks for having me yet again

[0:00:56 Joshua] yet again. So it’s been a busy week here in Texas. It’s been a few busy weeks uh in the world of in the in the world of texas politics. Um but it’s been a busy week for, you know, in a particular way, or at least one particular way. It’s been busy this week, is that we’ve seen, you know, some of the elite tensions, particularly, though not exclusively inside the Republican Party, that have been, you know, ever present in some ways, but certainly brewing over the last couple of years really break the surface. So, you know, let’s let’s start with some of the news in that area. So yesterday, and something that I, you know, I think most people found not amazingly surprising, although there was some uncertainty and who was going to jump in first. And uh former texas, state Senator Don Don Huffines, announced that he is challenging Greg Abbott in the Republican primary in 2022. Um, Don Huffines is an interesting person to do this. Uh, you know, given his background, I think there were some people that that found him. I I think particularly those that don’t follow politics in the state. If you look at this on the surface, I think you’d be justified in thinking, you know, frankly, who is this guy? To challenge Greg Abbott?

[0:02:20 Joshua] Or even if you knew him a little bit, you say why this guy?

[0:02:22 Jim] So, you know, Huffines background, He was Texas state senator from, you know, technically 2015 to 2019. He was elected to the one of the Dallas area Senate seats in 2014. And what was um, an interesting primary at the time that people, you know, is now, you know, eight years ago, people might have forgotten. But in in 2014 he challenged John Carona, who at that point was, you know, a pretty well established figure. I mean, not beyond reproach, and it’s not that, you know, he wasn’t without his vulnerabilities, but Corona was, you know, uh an important chairman and a big player in the texas senate. And Huffines defeated him in the 2014 primary. Um as part of what is now, we we saw at the time, and I think now still fairly see as the cresting of of the Tea Party wave in the Republican Party in Texas, but then what a difference four years can make in 2018, up for reelection. Um He had an easy, he had an easy primary run, but then was defeated by the democrat, Nathan Johnson, who now holds that seat and pretty handily in 2018 by 8.5 points. Now, you know, a lot of people that won by a lot in 2018 not to take anything away from from Senator Johnson, who it turns out, has been a very active and capable member of the Senate. You know, 2018 was a good Democratic year. But still in terms of thinking about, you know, who is this guy question? You know, to lose if you lost by 8.5 points, even in 2018, you lost by 8.5 points. So, you know, who finds, you know, has an interesting background then? Also within the party. His brother ran for an open Senate seat in 2018, which he lost in that primary to Angela Paxton, who now holds that seat, obviously for those of you listening, who will know this, but for for full disclosure, the the wife of the Attorney General, ken Paxton, and that was a very bitter, hard fought primary, in which, you know, the Attorney General Paxton also caught a little bit of incoming as part of that And and from the Huffines brothers.

[0:04:44 Joshua] Yeah, it was pretty ugly

[0:04:46 Jim] It was an ugly primary now. So now, you know, a couple years later, who finds, um it has jumped in the race. And he kind of telegraphed this, if you if you go back, you know, to, you know, a little more than a year ago in March of 2020 he gained some attention by writing an op ed that that ran in a couple of the major papers. I think I saw it in the statesman, but I think it was in a couple, was picked up here and there, um, in the early day, and this was the early days of the pandemic, in which, you know, he was in that vanguard of far right republicans that were criticizing the governor from early on in the pandemic for the closures and for the effect on business. And, you know, the uh what we’re seeing is infringement on personal freedom and technically they were infringement, but you know, we’re seeing as an unwarranted and seen as unwarranted infringements on personal freedom by the governor in the early period of fighting the pandemic. And then, you know, even as he was declaring, Huffines used to get to get a portrait of him, kind of out there in the right wing ether, the Republican Party. He also had a walk on role in the big Washington post story written by multiple authors that if you didn’t see that, I think I feel like it raised a lot of eyebrows, but, you know, it didn’t get made quite the splash on social media and in the general discussion, I thought it might because it was so much going on this week. But um this is a story about a group that was formed in 2018 to try to cultivate skepticism about the integrity of elections in Texas. And this story was really, you know, on one hand, we’ll just call it what it was, was part of it was like, wow, what a crazy story. You know, a bunch of guys meeting in a this this guy’s airplane hangar to be briefed, you know, to have their cell phones taken away, like in a dave chappelle show or something and briefed on, you know, this set of accusations about election fraud and, you know, with with tons of walk ons, I mean, uh, you know, they tried to talk her finds into being a litigant in a call for a recount, which he declined and to question the results, but also included Austin’s own Laura Presley, who maybe not that well known outside of Austin, but if you follow Austin politics, unsuccessful city Kan city council candidate who herself, you know, made loud and repeated accusations about election fraud and in a broken process in her loss in her 2018 city council run. But also, you know, lots of people Pete sessions, louis go mart, Louie Gohmert Sidney Powell, uh Rudy Giuliani, of course, the, you know, becoming the Rosetta Stone of, you know, right wing election fraud policy.

[0:07:38 Joshua] Sounds like a chappelle show audience.

[0:07:40 Jim] Yes, yes, lots of lots of stuff going on in the story and and that story happened to come out on the day or, you know, maybe that the evening before her finds announced his race. So judge, you know, Don Huffines. What do you make, what do you make of Don Huffines? Maybe don? Let’s put it this way. What do you you’ve already said? I think what you make of Don Huffines, what do you make of Don Huffines candidacy?

[0:08:02 Joshua] Uh, not much. I mean, sorry. That’s the quick short, short hot take. I mean, you know, it’s interesting.

[0:08:09 Jim] Okay, next topic.

[0:08:10 Joshua] Duh, It could be done quick. I don’t know. You know, it’s sort of interesting because I mean, it was pretty clear for a while that somebody was going to emerge as a Republican primary challenge. Yeah, but the truth is, I don’t think this is the last one. I mean, there’s gonna be some number of kind of lesser known candidates than Don Huffines. And there might be some, you know, there might be there might be some more known candidate means the people, you know, they’re they’re receiving some speculation right now. It includes Sid Miller and Ellen West as possibilities. Um, you know,

[0:08:40 Jim] and then, as you were saying yesterday, we were talking about there’s also there’s always just like some people, you know, the folks we have to include in polling because they’re on the ballot at the get less than 1% or a percent or something. And that have often have, you know, funny ballot, attractive names or something

[0:08:57 Joshua] like Larry Secede Kilgore is an example of like one of those and we know this because we always have to put them on trial balance so we only look them up, figure out, you know, and you get to be called whatever you want to be called on the ballot. So there you go. So I mean, you know, I don’t think this was super surprising. I mean, you know, I mean there’s a lot of things I could say about this and it’s kind of hard to know what exactly to think about, which I think kind of what’s so interesting about it in the moment that we’re in right now, in the sense that, you know, you kind of look everywhere and there’s some elite conflict and you know, the elite conflict doesn’t kind of fit into the neat boxes in the way that we usually talk about it, you know? And so on the one hand I would say it’s not surprising people are going to emerge and there’s a lot of reasons for that. I mean one I think, you know, despite all the strengths of Abbott’s positions, again, we’ve written recently how his position has weakened over the year of the pandemic, which I think is unsurprising for anybody, right? Um but he still has, you know, 77% of republicans approving of the job he’s doing. Is it is it as intense as it used to be now, but it’s still 77% he still has, you know, $40 million in the bank now, Don Huffines, I understand probably has a lot of resources he can lean on as well when it comes to running a campaign, but, you know,

[0:10:09 Jim] he spent his own money,

[0:10:10 Joshua] He had to spend his own money. That’s right. But I mean, but that also speaks to something to which is, you know, it’s an interesting moments, like, you know, there’s something aspects of this make a ton of sense, right? I mean, you know, you’ve got a Democratic democrat in the White House and democrats in control of Congress. I think there’s a lot of republicans who are looking at this upcoming election thinking this is a good opportunity for me, and if that means I have to get run over another Republican to get there, so be it right. I think there’s some long term frustration. People talk about this all the time, but in a state that’s been dominated by republicans in the statewide level, and who aren’t going on to become president or do other things, you end up with a logjam. And I think there’s a lot of people who would like to move up, and so I think there’s a certain amount of, you know, of that going on, um, you know, and then I think the question that serve a little bit harder for me to to gauge here is sort of, I think the question that we’re all looking at this sort of, I think underlying a lot of this elite conflict generally, which is, you know, how much of this, you know, and Huffines could stand in for anybody, but how much of this is, you know, some of these politicians looking out at the republican electorate right now and saying, you know, I think if I get to the right of anybody on this, I’ve got a good chance, you know, that that if I can if I can if I can see if I can create some distance between Abbott and myself on immigration and border security, election integrity and my fealty to trump, maybe I can just slip in here. And I think that there’s a lot of that going on out there right now.

[0:11:35 Jim] Yeah, I mean, you know, and you know, I mean in some way, I mean, confines announcement was almost like a parody is too strong a word, but it’s you know, if you’re going to write the tv version of somebody that was gonna that was going to challenge Abbott, you know, in this environment, you know, part of his announcement was about finishing the wall Yeah, on the border. Right? So that I mean that in some ways that almost distills, you know, the mood in a very, you know, interesting, well, funny way,

[0:12:06 Joshua] what’s funny is, you know, if you take huffines background a little bit, not necessarily his politics with his background, you know, you’d almost think that how fines would be challenging him or is like a center right republican, you know, just in terms of the businessman, I mean, the idea that, you know, the real criticism with Abbott began with, you know, with any sort of shutdowns and mask mandates of business and the idea that there was a strong sort of business, you know, let’s a Republican business community backlash.

[0:12:33 Jim] Well, you know, I think the interesting thing about this is I probably only partially agree with that and that, you know, I mean, I think, you know, in the beginning it was it was both right and that was the and that was and you know, hence the problem, right? There was the conventional, you know, but but I think the kind of center right challenge was to some degree, much more mixed than the, you know, the Abbott’s right challenge, which from the beginning, you know, had a much more Trumpian flair to it. I mean, the business stuff was certainly, you know, certainly wrapped up in in it, but, you know, and I think, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking like, because we’re talking about there’s going to be all these challengers to Abbott and everyone’s running to the right, you know, will anybody try to occupy that more traditional center right period? I mean, clearly, the governor, you know, the governor has decided, it seems to me pretty evidently beginning mid summer, that, you know, he is not he is not going to try to occupy that position, at least not, you know, before the general election comes around, you know, and so, you know, there is space there, but I, you know, I don’t know that there are votes there, you know, that it’s an empty space.

[0:13:46 Joshua] Well, that’s the interesting thing. I mean, we were still talking this before and I was saying, you know, my impression, sort of, you know, right after the election after january six and sort of in the first kind of month or so of the year, there’s a lot of like press coverage that was talking about, you know, becoming Republican Civil War. And I mean, and the thing that it seemed to me like this is my impression of that coverage, so, you know, maybe somebody has a different impression, but, you know, my impression that coverage was, there was this idea that, you know, the center right was going to reconstitute itself now that Trump had been kicked from office and banned from social media and they were going to you know, try to retake over the party and really everything we’ve seen both in Texas honestly and nationally since then has actually said no, the you know, whether you want to call it the far right wing with the Trump wing, whatever that collection of attitudes and you know, that’s out there on the far side, that’s where all the activity is, and that’s where it’s coming from. I mean, you know, I think about, you know like the issues the legislature’s taking right now and the idea that like, you know, constitutional carry, you know, no chance, no votes, not only two sessions, not only two sessions ago, last session, but two weeks ago. And all of a sudden like, no, we’re going to do it. The idea of an abortion ban without an exception for rape or incest is a possibility is like, well, okay, I mean, but this is something republicans here used to try to avoid these kinds of votes.

[0:15:01 Jim] We’ll see. I think you do something interesting there though, that that leads me to kind of, you know, I kind of structure this a little bit differently, I think. So, you know, there was this big post trump discussion. What you know, I think of is, you know, focused a little bit more in the national realm and I’m not, you know, I don’t know that. I mean, I think different people have different expectations about, I mean, there was certainly the big question Trump has lost, how much has he delegitimate delegitimized himself as a result of january 6th and he’s kicked off social media platforms, you know, what is this fight going to look like? You know, you know, my impression and you know, I don’t, you know, like you said, you know, I think one could, this is kind of maybe more roar shock than analysis, you know, it felt to me like, you know, that was that was sort of, I don’t think anybody is really presupposing the outcome. I think some coverage, you know, felt like, you know, either consciously or unconsciously conveyed having a preference or a dog in the fight I and that was in there,

[0:16:04 Joshua] but I, you know, so I don’t think it was presupposing an outcome. I just think that the way the coverage, you know, like focus on like, you know, go back and look at coverage, I guess, of Liz Cheney, you know, 2 3 months ago. And there was an idea that there’d be a bunch of activity in the space doesn’t mean they were going to win. It wasn’t presupposing an outcome

[0:16:20 Jim] well there has been

[0:16:22 Joshua] well, but there has been a win, but the wind was not with those people.

[0:16:24 Jim] No, no, I said there’s been a lot of activity in the space and I’m still not quite, you know, we’ll see what happens if they went, you know, when they boot Liz Cheney. But I think the other piece I noticed the way you discuss, you discuss that is that you then also kind of transitioned into like that fight in the legislature. And I think that, you know, I mean as we’ve written, you know, those things are interacting and certainly like, you know, finds thing about the wall is, you know, an argument for, you know, that some some degree of transference or projection of that national fight into the state level. On the other hand is you and I have written absent, donald trump, you know, is there a pretty strong idea that whether it was the wall or something pretty strong possibility, whether it was the wall or something else that somebody challenging Abbott would use immigration as the club to beat him with to try to beat him with is pretty high based on what we know about our data and this, what we know about texas, public opinion and the culture. Now, you know, discussion in and of itself, you know, yet to be determined because we’re too early in the cycle about or in the historical trajectory of this to figure out like, you know, trump trump, inflamed these sentiments trump, you know, pick your, pick your description of that dynamic. I think it’s still kinda up in the air, you know, but I think this does, you know, there is something very, you know, like kaleidoscopic about this conflict at this moment, that’s always been there, right? I mean, and we’ve we’ve written about this too, there’s this notion of, yes, there’s a left right fight going on here. There’s, you know, ideological fight, there’s a sectoral fight going on there here, you know, it has to do with where businesses line up and then what, which businesses lineup, where, etcetera, you know, the, you know, what’s become the now traditional, the business business slash elites versus the Republican grassroots quote unquote, which I’m also is it has some limited utility, but as long as, you know, where the boundaries are, and then there’s just like, basic ins and outs, right? I mean, you know, is alan, well, how much more conservative really, is allen west than pick your, pick your incumbent, Right? So, you know, there’s all of that going on now, I think so, you know, that’s there to be sorted out. And I think this is an and the Huffines candidacy is simply the opening salvo in this. You know, we talked last week about the new york Times article the Eliana plots wrote that was, you know, very thick with, you know, paxton saying this and then having to change, you know, changing his mind and, you know, accusing the story of being fake news and Atlanta plots just kind of like, well, by the way, I’ve got tapes, so you agreed to record it. Yeah, So, you know, you know, but you know, that was full of like Sid Miller and Allen West and Patrick and all of this going on. But we saw another like, interesting element of this, which I think is just as complicated, but a little more localized and speaks to this legislative piece yesterday. When, you know, in the House on another front of Republican conflict, the institutional conflict is the way you left out that introduces, Well, because I see I didn’t leave it out, was headed in that direction, taking notes, the House, you know, when the House engaged in a very long debate as we record this on Tuesday. This debate took place on monday during the day, monday and into the, into the evening on HB three, which was the priority bill designed to respond to the the powers exercised by the governor during the pandemic. And, you know, as as cassie Pollock, um it would be too familiar cassandra Pollock in the texas tribune, you know, wrote shortly after, you know, described it as a sweeping bill that would reform the Governor’s emergency powers during a pandemic and involve the legislature during such instances. Now, that is a very that really sets the stage for a lot of stuff that was going on. There were, you know, dozens of amendments, you know, that were pre filed and that were debated, you know, the legislation, the debate, the amendments that got accepted, you know, all illustrated a lot, you know, some shifting coalitions, both within the Republican party and between republicans, democrats and, you know, it underlines really just how careful we have to be about, you know, to flatten these conflicts. There’s a lot of dimensionality.

[0:20:56 Joshua] Well, I was just saying the other dimension that came up in that also in terms of the conflict was uh I mean, you could, you could say just state versus local. Yeah. State versus just say I was actually the baby Delaware state versus urban governments. Yeah. You know.

[0:21:09 Jim] Yeah. With increasingly in the stab the state being the, you know, animated by, you know, rural and suburban members, I think in that and that, and that is where we see a little bit of a reversion back to the partisan thing because of the partisan cleavage, because of the way that those voters line up and those parties, which we talked about. Um so what do you know, what does the bill do? You know? The bill does a bunch of things and with amendments, this will not be exhaustive, but, you know, just the the main things that requires the legislature to convene a special session if if a pandemic disaster declaration lasts longer than 100 and 20 days, it affirms the governor’s ability to suspend state laws during a pandemic, and still, and allows the governor to override local orders by county judges and and mayors if they contravene these orders. Obviously, an ongoing point of conflict during most of the pandemic. Um, you know, interestingly, and and in terms of these institutional and institutional assertion, it creates a 12 member legislative oversight committee, much discussed, made up of the heads of the two chambers, the lieutenant governor, the presiding officers, lieutenant governor and speaker, the key committee chairs. And this committee is empowered to terminate the governor’s disaster declaration to contravene, you know, rules, orders, et cetera, if the legislature is not in session, Right, Which is interesting. Um and that includes that special session. So this is kind of the default, like, okay, you know, immediately as I read it, this 12 member legislative oversight committee convenes, And is there kind of looking over the governor’s shoulder, which is an interesting,

[0:22:53 Joshua] I wonder if any of this is constitutional. I mean, this is not, this is not my area of expertise.

[0:22:58 Jim] Well, you know, I mean, I think we might hear about that and that, and I think that’s why the bill in the Senate that did fewer things that we’ll talk about actually called for a constitutional election for this.

[0:23:11 Joshua] The idea of a legislator, if you know, the ability to call special sessions is the power of the governor. It’s odd that the legislature could basically forced the executive to engage in one of.

[0:23:23 Jim] Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is written into the emergency, this the existing emergency statutes, as I as I looked at it, I think it car and that could be wrong about this. But I think it carves out this particular, it carves out a class of emergencies that are defined by pandemics and so distinguishes it from like hurricanes, but it falls within that existing statute. I think somebody will certainly let us know if that’s where I’m sure. Um and the governor would also need permission from the Legislature to to extend the declaration. Um you know, you know, some some some elements longer than 30 days, particularly requiring facemasks who’d have thunk it, you know, limiting certain medical procedures, closing or capping business operating capacity. In other words, it gives the legislature kind of a, you know, a sign, you know, a veto over those particular things that were most particular, most politically loaded and, you know, along those things that we’re talking about a few minutes ago.

[0:24:24 Joshua] The best example of that was the amendment that would have banned or prohibited local governments from having mask mandates ever. So that was one that originally passed and then they redid the vote and they found that it failed 72 to 71 which is just, you know, again, this is a state where our, you know, our polling has shown consistently at least 80% of Texans wearing masks when they leave their homes, including, you know, that’s 80 per se, at least 80%. I’m talking about republicans, but it’s higher amongst independents is higher amongst democrats. So really, you know, as much as 80% overall was 80% overall, there’s knows it was still it was still 80%. Okay, well, anyway,

[0:25:01 Jim]it was 80% in april still, which is amazing. It was it was it was 80% less than a month ago,

[0:25:07 Joshua] right, Like, so, I mean, but I mean, at this point you say, well, it’s not that I’m saying that that was not controversial. The point was it was controversial even though people were doing it.

[0:25:16 Jim] Yeah. So, you know, that some of the things that got added an amendment and some of these were freestanding bill’s that people then tacked on as this as the train started to leave the station, people were throwing their bags on the train. Um, you know, so they created the texas epidemic, Public health institute at the health center in Houston, U. T. L. Center in Houston. And then and then linked that this was an amendment to the amendment, if I remember correctly. And that institute is going to report to the oversight committee not to the governor, which is interesting. Uh, there was an amendment, there’s an amendment that will prohibit local officials from requiring closures. And then another thing that was a freestanding bill that I think got added to this, an Emergency management text system, which is very popular in our polling as I recall. So this coming in the trajectory, You know, I’m still not exactly sure what I think about all this. I mean, look at the one thing I think for sure is that I want to say idiosyncratic, but let’s call it the specific nature of the texas constitution and the way it reflects the political culture of the state, not to sound like a texas 306 teacher, but you know, the idea that, you know, we’re going to have the, you know, the legislature is asserting itself to some degree and in some, you know, noticeable, I think real ways against the executive here in a way that I think it’s kind of pretty consistent with the legislative focus, you know, with a bunch of asterisks of the texas constitution. And it’s almost, you know, we’ve talked a lot in the last few years about the efforts of particularly Greg Abbott, but some degree a Governor Perry, but particularly Governor Abbott, you know, to build, you know, to to strengthen the role of the executive where he could in a way that, you know, had a noticeable impact to my mind on the constitutionally created balance of power between the branches. And it’s been a while since we’ve seen the legislature pushed back in any meaningful way, frankly.

[0:27:20 Joshua] Well, well, you know, and I mean, I think, you know, despite 77% approval, that, you know, even though this is an extremely inside baseball kind of debate, I mean, this is not something that, I mean, first of all, I think about all the provisions you’ve listed. I mean, you know, and all, and then again, the shifting coalitions depending on what the provision is that you’re talking about. I mean, ultimately, there’s a lot of things in this bill for voters of various stripes to like if you’re just a democrat and you’re asked, hey, do you want to take powers away from the governor and the next pandemic? The answer is yes. If you’re a conservative Republican, who doesn’t like the way that, you know, managed the pandemic, there’s something for you to like here too. Even if you’re a moderate, you know, it’s a center right republican, I want the model, but a center right republican who doesn’t like the way the localities handled it. But I was happy with Abbott. There’s something for you to like here. But ultimately, the fact that there’s so much in here that, you know, really places new limitations reorient the relationship between the legislature and the executive branch, especially around this stuff shows, you know, sometimes I can’t go back where I started here how Governor was 77% job approval in $40 million is definitely going to see multiple primary challengers because the pandemic was a messy thing. It was especially messy for republicans who again, you know, we’ve said this before, but pandemic requires, you know, a large government response and it requires people to behave to to engage in collective actions, which is not really doesn’t really cohere with republican ideology that relates to limited government and individual responsibility,

[0:28:46 Jim] Right. And these are things that we know, or, you know, kind of animate, you know, the political culture and animate the kind of people who get

[0:28:56 Joshua] active when people really activate the types of politicians and the types of voters who get activated in republican primaries to a greater degree.

[0:29:07 Jim] We asked about this and we got 55 we asked people the supporter opposed limiting the emergency powers of the texas governor during a pandemic or similar health emergency, was clearly aimed at, you know, taking people’s temperature broadly on this. And, you know, we got 55 support and 40% oppose. And and to your point about, you know, this is, you know, these kinds of institutional questions, you’re automatically asking people to think about things at a level that a lot of people don’t think about. So we got 18% saying, I don’t know, but there was a lot of, you know, but there was a lot of Republican support, even if it wasn’t even if it was closely divided, I mean, it was 43 45 among republicans.

[0:29:49 Joshua] Well, put it this way, if you’re a Republican voter who had heard anything about this conflict before, us asking you this question on the survey, you’re probably a Republican primary voter. It’s just it’s just too, I mean, it’s just such an in it’s just you have to be paying a good amount of attention. I mean, just from all the other polling, we’ve done that, we when we talk about sort of, you know, nexus of government power type questions, it’s just not something a lot of people are thinking,

[0:30:13 Jim] although, although I would say this is probably a little more science than than usual, because of the context of the pandemic, and it’s like, you know, these stories were not on, you know, these were not a four or even be one stories, these were a one stories as, you know, as as the governor was being challenged. So, I think, you know, I mean, only 11, you know, and, you know, I mean, although, to, you know, to your point, you know, 21% of of democrats and, you know, again, a third of independence, no surprise there, you know, had said they didn’t know in response to this question, but only 11% of republicans said they didn’t know. So, you know, but I mean, you know, I mean, one doesn’t want to undersell the degree to which, you know, as we watch this unfold on the floor, there was some classic log rolling going on here. I mean, there was a little something, you know, you kind of said this, I think in a slightly different way, but at the level of, like, what was going on in the room yesterday, in the chamber yesterday, there’s a little something for everybody. You know, I mean, some of the republicans to taunt the primary republicans or, you know, kind of activist republicans, if you will, you know, got these assurances that that local local praga lives would be hemmed in, you know, institute called them legislatively institutional republicans, who felt like, for whatever reason, the Legislature should have had more say, got a little something out of this. It was a little something for every, you know, democrats got some more legislative oversight and some science out of this. So, you know, the way this this unfolded was an interesting example of how the House works, right? And how the legislature works now. Having said that what we should say is that, you know, if the House gives its, you know, if this survives third reading, which I’m pretty sure it will. Um, it’s unclear where the Senate, what the Senate is going to do. There’s no companion bill. So this is going to get shipped shipped over to the Senate. You know, the bill that they voted out was very different from this required the governor to call a special session in order to declare a state emergency that lasts more than 30 days, but also included a potential constitutional amendment. Right? So that would require the approval of texas voters. So it’s unclear whether the House and the Senate are actually going to settle. But that’s, you know, going into a primary election. That’s very interesting.

[0:32:39 Joshua] It’s another one of those, you know, was that was that the Senate, you know, pushing its preferred option, pushing an option and it wasn’t going to go anywhere or waiting for the House to deal with the mess of it and see what came out.

[0:32:51 Jim] Yeah. And and there’s been a lot of that, as there isn’t any session, there’s been a lot of that going on between the Senate and the House on this. So, there’s a lot of cross currents here.

[0:33:00 Joshua] I want to I want to clarify one, I want to be fair to Don Huffines here. Senators finds your conscience is bothering you a little is it? Well, a little I want to I want to be I don’t want to be to flip here. And part of the reason, you know, you said, you know, what do you think of his candidacy? And I said not much. And it’s not because, you know, he’s not potentially a credible candidate who won’t find himself. You know, the thing that I’ve actually been thinking about in all of this is the fact that, you know, the delayed census count is going to make this really hard for challengers. I mean, ultimately everybody knows who Abbott is, everybody knows who’s patrick is. Every, you know, people know who packson is. And, you know, and so, ultimately, to the extent that, you know, for Republican elected officials who enjoy pretty solid job approval numbers amongst Republican voters the delayed calendar on that means that you know other republicans are going to come from, what I mean is another Republican who’s going to come forward and seriously challenged. Have it is going to have to have higher name I. D. Than Huffines to begin with. I think I think they’re going to come in with a little bit of a coalition or some of their own voters. People who voted for them statewide before. I think that’s really if there’s gonna be a serious change is going to be someone like that it would have to be and I’m not speculating in any way but would have to be a patrick has to be a similar it has to be a can pass it to be somebody else. I think I mean even Allen West I think you know that I think that’s a challenge for him. He said he’d be on T. V. Like all the time. But you know I think that’s the one thing. So when I was saying you know I don’t think much of it I just don’t think he’s the the right person to put up a strong challenge against app in the context we face.

[0:34:30 Jim] Okay you should you should feel good about that okay we’ll throw that out there. You know I mean I I do want to say that I you know the delay the delayed if there’s a delayed primary one could also argue that it might be helpful because it gives them more time now if the field gets more crowded as you’re saying and then it gets harder for Huffines. But a delayed primary I think overall if you’re an incumbent it’s generally all things being equal. It’s not good because you know it just creates more space for, you know, things to happen or for whoever to build support. Now, you know, it doesn’t negate all of your advantages. That’s why it’s kind of an all things being equal thing.

[0:35:14 Joshua] But yeah, I mean, another element of this I think is interesting to play out in the future in terms of all these conflicts you’re talking about is the role that Abbott’s money plays in down ballot races. I mean, he’s sort of positioned himself or been positioned by others or propositioned by others as the savior at various points using, you know, his money and his operation to help down ballot candidates. And so, you know, the idea that there’s all this conflict about, you know, I’m curious to see how much that sort of, you know?

[0:35:41 Jim] Yeah, I mean, I I you know, I would be more definite about that. I mean, I think that, you know, that was a strategy and it’s a strategy that they undertaken purposefully and yeah,

[0:35:50 Joshua] they weren’t giving away the money for fun,

[0:35:52 Jim] you know, I think that’s, you know, that they definitely, you know, did that on purpose and we’ll do that again. I think the extent that they have it and that they’ll have the money to do it. Um So we wound up going back, but um

[0:36:06 Joshua] sorry, it’s my conscience.

[0:36:07 Jim] Yeah. So at that point, I think I’ll just, you know, call an abrupt end to this and say, um, you know, for those of you listening, it will be interesting to watch this bill and see how these institutional politics play out some more as the legislature enters its final frantic weeks. And I see no signs that it’s going to get any less frantic. So we’ll be back probably with things to talk about on the legislative front next week. Thanks to josh for being here. Thanks to the are excellent technical crew in the liberal arts development studio in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thanks to you for listening lots of the data we talked about and much more on our website texas politics dot utexas dot e d u. And we will talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. The second reading podcast is a production of the texas politics project at the University of Texas at Austin