June 22nd, 2021 – Second Reading Podcast

[0:00:00 Speaker 1] Welcome to the second reading podcast from the University of texas at Austin. The republicans were in the Democratic Party because there was only one party. So I tell people on a regular basis, there is still a land of opportunity in America. It’s called texas. The problem is these departures from the constitution, they have become the norm at what point must a female senator raise her hand or her voice to be recognized over the male colleagues in the room and welcome back to the second reading podcast for the week of june 22nd 2021. I’m Jim Henson, director of the texas politics project at the University of texas at Austin. I’m happy to be joined on the podcast today by state Representative Travis Clarkie. Coming to us by phone, Representative McClarty represents district 11 in the texas house, which includes Cherokee, nacogdoches and rushed counties in east texas. He’s currently serving his fifth term in the texas house where during this session, he served on the culture, recreation and Tourism Committee and also as we will discuss on the elections committee, which was the center of a lot of action. Representative Clarkie. Thanks for taking time to be here today. Had had a chance to recover a little bit from such a busy session.

[0:01:20 Speaker 0] Yeah, a little bit.

[0:01:21 Speaker 1] Well, I want to start with the most current events. So late last week, Governor Abbott vetoed article 10 of the state budget for the next two years, which is the part of the budget for legislative branch entities. Now, this was a follow through on a threat to do so that he first issued publicly in a tweet on Memorial Day after democrats broke Corum in order to kill the big voting bill. Let’s be seven. I want to talk to you about what you make of the big picture here. But first off, can you tell us what this veto means in practical terms, from your perspective and the Legislature, what’s the like, what’s next?

[0:02:00 Speaker 0] Practically, we’re still trying to figure out exactly what it means. This was my knowledge, an unprecedented move by governor of this. You know, I think there is some question of exactly what the land that would be heads of the executive branch and to my knowledge, has been done, prepared or unfunded, one of the co equal branches of government, whether the judiciary or the legislative, but that’s what we’ve got, so kind of parse through this. I really expect this to be more of a, you know, a sign of frustration when the governor first mentioned it and I which I was, you know, that he had set election reform as one of his priorities. And so I could I could understand the the initial reaction, but I really didn’t think that he would follow

[0:02:43 Speaker 1] through, but

[0:02:45 Speaker 0] here we are.

[0:02:46 Speaker 1] Yeah. I mean, I think you’re not alone in that, and, you know, it would be unfair to ask you to get in the governors head. But I mean, you know, what do you think he’s trying to accomplish here? Is this a signal just to the democrats? Is that a signal to the legislature as a whole? You know, I don’t know if you talk to your colleagues much about this, You know, How are people interpreting this?

[0:03:06 Speaker 0] Well, I talked a little bit more of them, uh before we actually scientists, uh final veto on article 10. But beforehand, I think the general consensus, both from republicans and democrats, was that send a signal of his frustration that he wouldn’t actually do it because again, I’m having a very difficult political standpoint or from a possum how this is supposed to help things for us to come back and have what I really hope to have, and then certainly hope to have before his veto. And that is a productive special session where we interest from real needs for texas and that deal some significant issues which we weren’t able to complete during the regular session. So I don’t see where this helps that at all. I think it causes a lot more open questions and frankly, it seems like we’ve been spending a lot more time spinning our wheels of, well, how do we deal with this issue in a special what’s going to be on the call? And how do we around this, take care of the folks that jim, you know, this the staffers that take care of us, I can get by without the $600 a month that we get as a state representative and always give me that that’s a constitutional provision that’s not part of what’s being cut. People are being hurt. And particularly for those staffers for Republican members like myself who had no role or desire or took any actions which led to the corn being broken by the democrats. It seems like we’re trying to kill us a flea with a sledgehammer.

[0:04:41 Speaker 1] And it also, it winds up paralyzing a lot of the other bodies, you know, related to that do the bureaucratic work of the legislature and that are doing things that are important to moving forward on the things that are still unresolved. It seems to me, right.

[0:04:52 Speaker 0] Yeah. And also, jim, I mean, you use the term bureaucratic I would that does carry with some negative connotations for whole bunch of people, but what it does do affect other other people who really do import work for the state of texas, support work support staff for the legislative branch, whether it be the legislative budget board or alleged council or or other patients that really provide that fabric that that find a level resource that we need to adjust, respectively. Those were being impacted by this and you know, they serve texas, uh this is their livelihood. Uh they all have bills to pay and our speed just like the rest of us. So I don’t really I don’t really understand why this was done. I guess I can see where it could perhaps apply some uh pressure to see that the session been issues productively. But again, if this is all about what happened on the second to last night of the session in the texas house, when the, you know, the majority of the democrats uh walked out, broke warm for the last couple of hours. Uh, I really think that’s an issue best handled by the House uh, speaker feeling and uh, those of us who actively work on and we want to see a quality elections bill passes and other measures of the government sees fit to put on the call. We can handle our our internal House discipline fine on our own thinking. I don’t think we need a heavy hand from the executive and his orchestra apply pressure to accomplish the goals that we have in front of us. I think we can do it very well on our own time in our own way under our own roots. We do like, and I think, uh, taxes are branches are three co equal branches of government of being independent and acting on their own. And, you know, if we’ve got a problem in our house, well, it’s our responsibility to fix it. I think that we can, but I don’t know what this portends for the county special whenever that may be. I don’t know what effect this has on the democrats and their willingness to participate and and to come back for the special session. You know, they broke warm for a couple of hours during the regular. But does this motivate them to stay away completely? Do what happened back in 2003 and leave the state, you know, outside the jurisdiction of texas and uh, you know, not allow us to make a core. I would hope not. But to me, this action makes that more likely then less likely. I I I was not concerned at all about the democrats. You know, not coming back for a special session. I think that they made their point. They want an opportunity to uh, see the bill stay the bills. We certainly going to do that. We’re certainly going to address the concerns that were there with then SB seven. But what will be the elections bill? Okay. Now, I don’t know how this really affects decisions that our colleagues may make. You know, there’s already there’s already discussion of and from more than one angle of people challenging the Governor’s veto on a separation of powers principle, which, frankly, I I think is a legitimate issue to be looked at. And said, I’m so surprised where you have to have this conversation and that, you know, we’re gonna be maybe looking to the courts to resolve an issue when really all we need to do is saturday and come back to work.

[0:08:26 Speaker 1] And, you know, in a way, I mean, timing becomes really important here. I mean, once again, we’re up against something of a deadline even for a court action, given that the fiscal year start, that this budget applies to starts relatively soon. And so this is going to have to be ironed out if it’s not going to impair the work of the legislature in the fall knowing that we have to you have to come back for an october special session for Right.

[0:08:52 Speaker 0] Right, well, and that’s one of the things that jim I didn’t tell you. I was overly chagrined. Yes, I would have liked to have had the opportunity to pass at the seventh have it to a vote on the floor before there’s a regular session. We had learned that there were a couple of issues that needed to be addressed, which we could have fixed with technical changes, which wasn’t really an opportunity to amend that Congress committee report on the floor, but could have been addressed technical corrections after the bills filed. But you know, we didn’t get that opportunity. But at the same time, I also was well aware that we would be coming back sometime before the budget cycle started. September 1 2021 because of the federal monies that we anticipate coming in, we’ll deal with in the supplemental appropriations. So we were going to have that session and we also knew what we’ve all been acutely aware that because of the U. S. Census Bureau hasn’t provided the apportionment uh figures that the detailed statistical information to to draw the lines and rejecting that we’re also going to be coming back in. Well, that’s september october so we knew we were coming back at least twice on two significant issues. So yeah, well when we got back we could fix this in any other issues like I said that the governor has exclusive prerogative and placing on the call. But this veto the article 10 just seems to had a complication or ankle that I’ve not seen how it is productive or helpful, uh, and potentially could be harmful. And and having the kind of working relationship that’s really integral to the legislative process. Working.

[0:10:34 Speaker 1] You know, you raised the point that it complicates an already complicated situation. And but the linchpin at this point doesn’t, you know, whether without the veto seemed to be movement on SB seven, and I was interested to hear you say that, you know, you thought that some of the problems might have been fixable through the amendment process on the floor in the final moments or in the final hours. Of course, you didn’t get that opportunity. But that does raise the question of, you know, what would be a bill that both republicans on the whole would find acceptable and democrats, I mean, I think acceptable would be too strong a word, but the democrats would not find so offensive that they would resort to sort of the kind of escalation that we saw in the in the last session. You know, you became kind of a, you know, a star on NPR in the interview and which you chalked up two of the more controversial elements of the bill too mistakes and muddled work on the conference committee. That would be the limiting voting hours on sunday after one p.m. And judges being able to overturn election evidence results based on them quoting from the bill, the preponderance of evidence. It seems to me you’ve been pretty clear that those two things, you know, just setting aside whether, you know, the degree to which this is a mistake or you know, just what happened. Although I’m curious about that. How confident are you really that you could get to something that both sides would find at least digestible, if not great. You know, assuming there’s not going to be a consensus what has to be in there.

[0:12:14 Speaker 0] I’m confident that we can get to a bill and we’ll get to a bill that will go to the floor and that there will be a record vote on, and I’m confident that they will pass. I’m also very confident that it will be a bill that will largely pass, if not entirely pass on a partisan line vote. And it’s not specific that we’re in the SB seven Elsa is envisioned by myself and my fellow conferees. We find crafted filed timely and put before the the body and the conference committee report. We put a lot of time and effort into it. But I think that what we’re really battling against and getting a bipartisan support of the bill is the fact that SB seven at that time. And hopefully we can explain some of those tensions by further review an explanation and having our, all of our colleagues, both republicans and democrats, have the opportunity to review it well in advance of being put to a vote. But the 70 taken on kind of a mythic proportions that it has a, the perception, I think was very, very different from the reality of what we wanted to put forward and to put forward and which was largely in place in the conference committee report. You mentioned that there were a couple of things that we had issues with. There was no desire then nor now and the proof will be in the pudding to limit the hours. In fact, we want to expand hours or sunday voting uh for the proverbial souls to the polls. It’s always started 11. That’s where I want to believe it. That’s where we don’t want to believe that they came back to what I’m really am at a loss to explain some little scenes. And I likewise, we’ve always had laws in texas to deal with election contests. Those have been on the books forever. It’s been used very infrequently and the standards always been clear and convincing evidence. That was one of the things that I’ve only expected to stay in the bill. But there was some movement in the version. That’s where I think some of the bills have been filed around the country. And I think the original file SB seven that was filed presented by senator use. There were some, in my view, some problematic areas that would have caused problems uh in the context of a judicial review. Uh they weren’t really going there may have been well intentioned, but they weren’t really going to solve problems in the real world, rubber meets the road boots on the ground running elections in the state of texas. And so we worked hard to develop a bill that like most legislation starts off with some ideas and concepts and over process. You know, some of the rough edges are filed off to make it more, more appropriate, more useful, more palatable, uh and try to build a broader consensus that that’s the way we have governed. It is not to try to file a bunch of bills of what we can do it unless this power here, because we have the numbers to do it and shove it down stroke. Elections should be. Uh and the laws of the faithful should be nonpartisan, bipartisan. And that’s, that’s really was certainly my intention. And, and we’ll be when we come back to the special,

[0:15:28 Speaker 1] I’m not trying to relitigate the account, but what I think would be helpful to listeners and particularly some of the students that I know we’re listening to this because we make them would be to hear a little something about the process. And I’m not saying like, you know, name names, but despite what goes on behind the scenes, like who is hands on responsible for what goes in a bill in this kind of a tense last minute situation where you’re putting together large pieces of legislation with a lot of interested parties in with the clock ticking very loudly. In other words, you know, how does it happen that the bill comes out and their think and people are still kind of going, oh, hey, where did that come from?

[0:16:08 Speaker 0] Well, if it’s kind of funny, it’s not too dissimilar from the old school of rock cartoon. You know, I’m just a bill.

[0:16:14 Speaker 1] Uh

[0:16:15 Speaker 0] it’s really that process and uh, I was very honored and pleased and and I really enjoyed my experience of serving on the elections committee in the House. And so committees are formed. Uh most people are on there, that’s where they wanted to be. That’s a passionate each of the members, wherever they may be from the state were brought us a party affiliation. And so people have different ideas of bills and in this sense, this, you know, our chairman want, you know, there was, we knew this was on with the emergency items or key, there is that the Governor Abbott wanted to see approach. And I mean, all of us knew that after the events of last november and the things that followed elections were going to be a very hot issue, closely, closely looked at. And there were expectations of that. There are things that need to be done to continue to protect the integrity of texas elections. So with that as a backdrop, you know, what you do is people get to come forward and we had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people come forward to provide their testimony and input of what they think the bill should be in. Some maybe stakeholders that are involved in the process, whether it be the Secretary of State’s office or uh Attorney General for voter integrity and election integrity. It may have been from county clerks or Elections Administrator from around the state, but also just regular Texans that have opinions and so all of that input does matter. I mean, that’s that’s good news, is that we do listen, we do, we’re sane and with our own constituents and I will listen to my own elections administrators and what’s good, bad or indifferent. And prior to two, uh, places where the law would be strengthened and there’s outright, you know, glaring omissions or problems for my born, uh, we have a strong body of election laws in texas, but there’s always room for improvement. Uh, you know, one of the issues born to my experience. Uh, but you know, after I heard a lot of the testimony, um, it’s just again, to me, it has to be the wrong way that we actually contemplate. And they’re allowed to spring up a cottage industry of voter harvesting in the state, uh, that people get paid to go chase down thousands that have been requested by mail and make sure that those ballots get returned and level of influence or court assistance that is provided to the people who may or may not have requested. Is that by mail, it’s there where we all know, and I’ve known since I first got elected, it’s the place in our elections will probably the most life mischief that things can happen. And we know this has happened in real electorates in real time. You know, there there is not some rampant epidemic of voter, uh, does happen. There are cases pending that are being prosecuted interestingly enough, a lot of that and a lot of problems we’ve seen, it’s not always happen. In fact, more than not, it does not happen in the november general election contests of Republican versus democrat. It happens in primaries and it happens in nonpartisan election. He races, uh political subdivisions, races. So elections would do. Election law has more to do and to be concerned with just the presidential of 71 years. And I think that’s something that I think people do lose sight of it. Uh sometimes uh it’s hard to do this, but in texas, we I think we do a good job to state government. I think we do a good job of being responsible to the citizens of texas. But sometimes the issues that are lost in translation because the national narrative which drives much of the discussion and perception, it’s almost kind of medical. Uh and then it is reputed to what goes on in texas. So I’ll answer your question, but it’s a process. How do we get there?

[0:20:09 Speaker 1] Well, I get

[0:20:10 Speaker 0] the that we made that we listen to people. Well,

[0:20:14 Speaker 1] I get that there’s a there’s a lot of surface to the issue and that that, you know, and that argument, I guess what I was wondering more specifically in this case also though, was in the final moments of assembling this bill. Is that is that the conference committee members emailing drafts to each other is in that final analysis where there were, you know, the final provisions that were put in there, some of which weren’t in either of the other bills. As I understand it, is that interaction is happening among the conference committee members. Is it mostly the chairs?

[0:20:45 Speaker 0] No, it’s among the conference committee members and and it’s done um largely in person. But you have to have it’s important to have it added too many cooks spoil the broth. Don’t forget if it was just left to the house, it just left the House conferees to draft this subject to the final version and get it filed. I don’t think we would have had as much difficulty, but the way our system works, it’s a bicameral legislature and which is entirely appropriate. The Senate had different approaches in some different priorities. And so that’s that is the nature of a why we go to conference like all of your amendments. They don’t like all of our amendments. So we go and meet and try to do that’s better done face to face. But you know, in one of the challenges of SB seven uh coming down the stretch before we got to the conference committee report is this was a they say an omnibus bill that had taken on a bunch of additional pieces and parts from other legislation to make it a comprehensive election bill. Things were at and there were a number of added a lot of them intended just uh when you take this significant portion with this over here, there’s some bread language and harmony um, of those within the within the election code framework. So, but I will tell you the post we work with our staff and the Elections Committee working hurricane and having because these are important legal issues. And there is some likelihood of having uh, the people if inland past would be subject to federal court scrutiny. But you know, this isn’t one, you know, this is not naming a memorial highway.

[0:22:32 Speaker 1] Uh,

[0:22:32 Speaker 0] this is going to, this is going to be looked at with the high level scrutiny as it should be. Again, there’s nothing I think more important to the fabric of our nation into our state than open, free and fair elections. And so they should be scrutinized. That’s, you know, that’s uh, but with that intense anticipation. First rule of a lot of things in life don’t be stupid. And so let’s take a look at how what we’re crafting here, and does this make sense? And so, you know, we would and and obviously jim there’s somebody that I can’t go into without uh running running afoul or running the risk of of waving uh privileges with council, but you know, which we enjoy with the legislative council, which help us with the drafting, but also with our parliamentarians, and also, you know, with outside counsel and people who are experts in the field left that uh you know, we we try to avail ourselves of all those resources, but like anything else of that, more people involved, the more complicated it gets. And uh and then when you’re up against some time constraints which we obviously were complicated and a few things that don’t quite flanges up uh lee and nicely as we would have liked them too. So I’m not as frustrated maybe some of our colleagues coming back to the special session. I’m actually looking forward to it because I feel very strongly we we did work together and put together. I think it’s very good constructive piece of legislation with the intention of keeping texas elections fair high confidence in the results of the last election in november of 2020. I think the proof was in the pudding here and I think our intentions of what we want to do with the election reform bill that we passed a special the proof will be in that.

[0:24:14 Speaker 1] So we’ve talked a lot about things that, you know, we’re I don’t want to say you were enthusiastic on the election stuff, but you mentioned that, you know, another reason you were okay to some degree with going back to a to a session and maybe that were particular words in your mouth, but a little frustrated with the added factor of the veto of the legislative article is that you thought there were other things that we’re still left to be done? What else would you like to work on since you’re going to come back?

[0:24:41 Speaker 0] Well, I will tell you. Of course. I think it’s appropriate. Legislature does control the strings that I’ve seen. 16. I’ve seen 18 billion. I think 18 is the right number, uh, federal dollars, some of the last coat, but that, that is coming into texas and that’s a significant amount of money. I don’t care who you are, but in, in light of, uh, relative to the texas, budget and decisions need to be made there. So that obviously needs to be on the call. Another issue, jim that I wanted to call, I’ll be working on letters tomorrow and I get back to Austin and back into texas is too uh, let’s take a harder look at our energy reliability. I think that the week or so ago and advisers you in on energy usage causes me great concern because yes, it was a little warm in june. Uh, but uh, I think it is foreseeable and not a newsflash to say it’s going to be hotter in july and august in texas. And I don’t have the confidence that I would like to have that we’re ready to withstand another challenge for our electrical grid and system in texas. And so I’m gonna be drafting letters and soon as governor of the speaker cuz and ercot and I think there’s some easy things that we could do on the short term to be ready. So we’re not faced with brownouts and blackouts. I would find that inexcusable. Now did we do good work in a fast session in my last night. Heavy led the charge in the house, uh, last somebody good luck and slave. But my view, it was primarily focused on winterization and more accountable before or cotton Pc and changing their fundamental structure, all of which I supported good measures. But I really don’t think we have grappled in a way and this, this, this little shot across the bow we’ve got in june tells me that we, we better have and I think the people of texas would expect us to have a real plan for what happens if we have exceptionally high temperature for a long period of time this summer? How do we make sure that the hospitals power is on and are expensive living in nursing homes continue to have power. That people are subjected to extensive heat from all periods of time because this is a truly life threatening uh possibility. And again, the notion that it’s going to be hot in july and august is not just foreseeable, that’s a virtual certainty. So that’s the time we’ve got time to do it. I would hope that’s going to be on the call.

[0:27:07 Speaker 1] So what do you think? What do you think gets that done briefly? In other words, what what didn’t you know, what didn’t get done that you would suggest needs to be laid out more specifically

[0:27:16 Speaker 0] specifically? I think there are some rules that could be relaxed is the way what generating units can produce at what levels we do have a regular deregulated market for electoral generation in texas. I think though, that we do need to have some additional emergency powers to act to make sure that those units stay online. And I think that puts fastest way to do it again. This is in an extreme of our situation. You know, I know we have been making a really concerted effort in texas to move away from our reliance has to say 20 years ago, coal based energy. And I think that’s been an appropriate thing to do. And we now have been, I think by all accounts, the most diversified sources from energy of any any state in the union, both thermal and number. But we have seen a problem with reliability of some of the non thermal power. So we need in an emergent basis. I would suppose someone suggested my letter that we look at taking some of the cold fleet that we have taken offline and incentivize those companies that own them, that their their their their present it’s the most reliable short term fix that we can do in the month to six weeks. We have 5000 megawatts standing by ready to go, not to be turned on just for the fun of it, but only in those dire circumstances where the greatest threatened or we’re looking at a lot of power in sectors of the state. So again, no one is suggesting that any kind of return to cold is the optimal future of power in texas. But you know, it’s kind of SB seven jim. We got up against the clock and and we didn’t have the time to fix the things that we would like to be able to fix. Well, I don’t want to get back up against the clock again. Like we did this one up and we have time to put together some, some reliable backup plans in place. That would let us literally whether the summer weather the storm and then, um, and then we can come back and look at later. But I think there’s gonna be a greater resistance and a greater push back when people go to their lights, which are trying to turn on the ceiling fan or try to get the record distance run for a few hours and nothing happens.

[0:29:37 Speaker 1] Well, I think that the, it’s very much on the public’s minds and, and, and to be frank, I think our, you know, our polling showed that the public is still a little skeptical that enough has been done to ensure the reliability of the grid. So, you know, whether those specifics are what people are asking for, it’s a complicated issue. I think there is an audience for more action by the legislature that would help with the reliability of the grid.

[0:30:02 Speaker 0] Well, some passages say I share that skepticism and particularly

[0:30:06 Speaker 1] for particularly

[0:30:07 Speaker 0] coming two or three months. It’s like, okay, let’s get through summer, let’s get to the ball. And that took some long term solutions. But I just don’t think really address to my knowledge. In the last several summers we have come pretty close to times. We’ve actually, he did the capacity available. You know, I’m reading numbers over. We’ve got 15% or 16% reserved capacity for this summer. But these are the same people that told us we had more than adequate capacity during the winter storm europe. So, pardon, pardon my skepticism and I hope they’re right, but I think we better have a plan. So, so your question was what I want to focus on and special. I think that needs to be it. I just hope we get the special soon enough that we can not be in the middle of it when the problem arises, which is the reason I’ll be in my letter to send my letters off to the powers that be and hopefully they find reception, uh, receptive here somewhere.

[0:31:02 Speaker 1] And you have not, you said earlier and you have not heard anything reliable on, on the timing of the session of the next special?

[0:31:10 Speaker 0] No, I mean, I think we all know what’s going to happen before september one because that’s the budget cycle. I don’t think the financial before. I don’t think that, you know. No, I’m not gonna know everybody asked me the same questions. Like I’m gonna know anything better than, you know, john Q public or any other, anybody else in texas. But I really think what we’ll do is see a sometimes just picking a date at the end of july 26 that way we could finish have a few days extra if we need to wrap something up for september one. But and and again, then we and and for things we don’t address outside of the budget issues, which I hope will include a correction to this uh title nine or article nine veto of the legislative branch. We get that done. We have a few other things still like I would hope we get the election bill done in this first special but you know, honestly jim we could do that in october in addition to redistricting and that will be fine. You know, we’ve got an election in november, but it’s not a constitutional amendments and then the primaries be next spring. So we’ve got time to do that. Neither session. So I just wanted to make the best use of the time it’s available. And I hope we can do it without any real distraction that I think that his budget veto fear may have caused.

[0:32:28 Speaker 1] Well, I got to say you’re one of the few people I’ve talked to that is enthusiastic for a special session. So that’s off, hats off to you on that. Thank you very much for taking time to be here. We really appreciate

[0:32:41 Speaker 0] it. I do try to be everything optimist, although sometimes my patients does get strained, but I do thoroughly enjoy serving the texas legislature representing the House. This is the leveling and you know, look forward to getting back season where we get to see, well, we’ll

[0:32:56 Speaker 1] hope to see you when you’re back on the ground here sir. Thanks again for doing this, enjoy the rest of your day. I also want to thank our technical crew in the Liberal Arts Development studio in the College of Liberal Arts at UT Austin. Thanks for listening. Thanks again to representative clarity for taking time and we’ll be back next week with another second reading podcast. The second reading podcast is a production of the texas politics project at the University of texas at Austin