January 26, 2021 – Second Reading Podcast

[0:00:00 Speaker 0] welcome to the second reading podcast from the University of Texas at Austin. The Republicans were in the Democratic Party because there was only one party. So I tell people on a regular basis, there is still a land of opportunity in America. It’s called Texas. The problem is these departures from the Constitution. They have become the norm. At what point must a female senator raised her hand or her voice to be recognized over the male colleagues in the room on Welcome Back to the second reading podcast for the week of January, the 25th 2021. I’m Jim Henson, director of the Texas Politics Project at the University of Texas at Austin. Uh, today I’m very happy to welcome is my guest, Ben Woman, who is the Washington correspondent for The Houston Chronicle. You might have also read Ben’s work in previous gigs at Politico in the Austin American Statesman. Hey joins us from Washington, D. C. Though he is the Texas a Texas native. Thanks for being here, Ben. And you know, I don’t think I’ve ever asked Where are you? Where in Texas are you from? I am from Leander, just north of Boston There. Okay, I was I was gonna guess San Antonio because of your spurs fandom. But, you know, you’re you’re in this sphere of influence there, I guess. Yeah, Yeah. It’s the regional team that leaves for the TV station. So you’re watching open? Yeah. Good e a Texas by Texans by adoption. And all I can say is, you know, is a Lakers fan. I’m gonna tell you. Good luck next year. Uh, in our audio technician may now cut me off eso we’ll move on. You know, you’ve written a lot of of great stuff from from D. C recently, and you and I talked a couple weeks ago, and one of the stories that’s hovering over and where I want to start is to talk about the junior senator from Texas. Um, you know, Ted Cruz has been very much in the news. Uh, since, uh, he was a co sponsor of the motions to question the votes in the Electoral College in the Senate on what became ah, very fateful day. Um, so one of you, you know, start maybe by telling us, you know, recap for the audience a little bit. What? Where Cruz was on that day and what he did. And let’s talk about the fallout on that and what you’re seeing now. Sure. Well, yeah. I mean, on that day, he, uh, you know, backed an objection. The way it works is the member of the house or a member of the house. At least one raises an objection to counting, uh, the electoral votes. Um, and they need the backing of a senator to do that. Ted Cruz had already said he would support some of these objections. It was unclear which exactly he would back, but he ended up backing the Arizona results. And that was the first ones that came up because they go in alphabetical order. So that was the first objection that came up. You know, the both chambers, the way it works is both chambers break off and they go, and they debate the objection. And they were in the process of debating that objection when the mob of Trump supporters stormed the capital. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it’s a matter of timing it it really He raised this objection and kind of made his case on the Senate floor just less than an hour before everything went down. Yeah, and then I I think what deepened the I mean, my suspicion is whatever the subsequent judgment is is wondering what you think about is he had to have been a bit surprised by exactly the what? How that unfolded and the fact that the crowd actually did wind up in the capital. But he wound up continuing to support questioning the objections of of the other states afterwards. Right, right. And so I mean, yeah, it’s important to note that he’s obviously condemned the writers, and, um, it doesn’t seem to have had any idea that that was going to happen. I mean, it wasn’t like he raised this objection. Um, at least from what we way. No. I mean, it doesn’t seem like he raised this objection to try to encourage something like that. He was doing what he saw as a, you know, constitutional sort of duty. And then this happened. But I’m sorry. I forgot the other. What was the question that well and so you know, But but they return after order is restored to the capital and you know, and you know you fairly right. That he did you know, your you fairly point out that he winds up, you know, condemning the violence. But then they do continue with the objections. And I think that Zbynek rub since then for him, right? And he did have the support going into this he, you know, reached out to a bunch of senators and got I think it was 10 other to back his objection. Then there was separately. Josh Holly said he was going to object and did object. The pain is results. So he had a lot of support coming into this. And most of those senators dropped their objections after the riots. And he did not, obviously, and it’s a little unclear to me. Um, you know, I think he could have pulled his objection, but I think he’s basically said that it was already in process, and it was it was kind of done At that point. They came back and briefly debated it and then voted on it. It was over, but I mean, nonetheless, he voted to object to Arizona’s results and later voted to object to Pennsylvania’s. So he did not drop his objections, right? I mean, that’s the you know, they you know, they may not have objected as much as they may, you know, on all of the states that they had targeted for objections. But they did choose the in a sense, you know, it has an odd feeling to me. It kind of splitting the difference in a time where maybe that equation doesn’t work so well. But since then, Cruz now has been under pressure. And you know the pressure. You know, the criticism of Cruz a lot of it has come from, I think, you know, it’s fair to say people that were probably not Cruz fans or supportive of his career and advancement prior to this. Um, and I’m wondering how you read that, you know, and and And if you have any updates, since you’ve written about this having been on the ground in D. C and talking to sources, you know, just just how I don’t want to say serious because of serious enough to have generated a lot of stories. But just how sustained and how impactful do you expect this criticism to be? What are you hearing? I mean, obviously there’s ah, ethics complaint that’s been filed by some Democrats on the hill. Seven Democratic senators. Um, honestly, I don’t really see that going very far. They basically say that Cruz and Hollywood lending credence to the moms cause, um, but I mean that, like anything that’s a political process, that it’s just probably not gonna go anywhere From what I could tell at least, um, and then I mean, like we’ve talked about before, kind of whether the sticks or not depends on people in Texas. To a great degree at this point. I mean, that’s who he’s answering to now, Um, and I don’t know if you saw the morning console polling that came out late last week on his approval rating there, but, you know, it looks like a five point hit or something. But it’s still a what, 76% I think something like that among Texas Republican. So, uh, yeah, I mean, that’s kind of an indication to me that he made a might have angered a few Republicans here and there, but he’s still is pretty popular among the people who supported him anyway. Yeah, I mean, I think that was you know, the I did read this story you wrote on that morning console poll and it’s seen the pole, you know, and I think that was relatively predictable. I think one of the interesting things in that poll that you pointed out in this story that you wrote for The Chronicle was that Cruz really still waas, you know, had better a job approval ratings among Republicans then then did Cornyn not by a lot the senior senator in this state, and that’s very much a kind of same as it ever was. Factor in terms of Cruz’s position in Texas. I mean, do you Do you think it has? Ah, you know is your read that it It has any kind of material effect on his, you know, fairly well known and larger ambitions. I mean, after all, I mean, I think it’s, you know, without saying that there wasn’t an element of principle in Cruz’s challenge. You know, one of the narratives that has taken hold and you could tell me you think this is wrong? Is that you know, Cruz was very much following Josh Holly in this to some degree, uh, in the way that he jumped into the questioning of the Electoral College and that this was really motivated by his positioning for the presidential election. Um, you know, does this enter into that? Does it? Does it hurt? Does it hurt him that things kind of went south? I mean, we we said earlier that in between the time he introduced the first motion in this, you know, and then they adjourned. The capital kind of explodes in this riot. That wasn’t necessarily what is what he is expecting. What’s your read and what are you hearing from sources about how this how if at all this impacts his presidential ambitions, I mean, it’s It’s obviously it’s hard to say, really, and nobody knows. But I kind of think that e mean the general thinking, at least from the people I’ve talked to you is that, you know, people forget things really quickly. And obviously the insurrection of the capital is not something that’s kind of like fadeaway. Exactly. I mean, it’s probably going to be a significant, you know, historical moment. But to the extent that whoever his future opponents might be in a race like presidential race are able toe to kind of stick that on him, I mean, I don’t know, we’re already saying that you know President Donald Trump’s been former president Donald Trump was impeached on That’s going to go nowhere quickly in the Senate. Um, and you know, there might have I could forsee or I could, you know, imagine, um, if that impeachment had sooner. Trump was maybe still in office. If finding was a little different, maybe a few more Republicans would have gone for it. But it doesn’t seem like many, if any, are now, so I don’t know. I just don’t have a hard time believing that it will have major negative implications. Um, for him going forward especially, I mean, as you’ve laid out for me, he’s kind of been at his lowest in terms of polling and support among Republicans when he’s been at odds with Trump’s. So, um, seems like he’s kind of still in line with that. And how about the Do you think the same applies to the other Republicans in the congressional delegation that have you know by that? By and large, you know, the majority of them stuck with Trump, you know, during the questioning of the Electoral College, I think the number was something like 15 of 23 you know, voted to rescind the the electoral votes in the in those motions on on January 16, 63 early the morning of seven. So, yeah, that’s right, because again, because because one split her vote, it was kind of she did, Romney. Right, Um, which I, you know, I really don’t quite understand. But, you know, is a political strategy. It seems a little too cute by half, but it does seem to have worked for Romney. So, you know, you know what’s what’s the mood among among in the house? I mean, is there any any sense of remorse over this? Is it all doubling down? Is there a certain sense that, you know, among them that it will all pass? Yeah. I mean, I haven’t really seen anyone like the voice, any sort of regret for this. I mean, that everyone’s basically said that they were, you know, they were doing what they view as their constitutional duty. They were speaking up for their constituents, and, um, they condemn what happened in the wake of that. They, you know, they nobody really has taken any sort of responsibility for for potentially inciting anything with their own rhetoric. From what I’ve seen, at least or from who I’ve talked Thio, it’s all Yeah, I just doubling down. Basically. So in a lot of ways, I mean, it’s, you know, the, you know, somebody, uh, you know, I think asked me in a panel I did a few days ago or a few days afterwards at the inauguration. You know, something about you know what? The mood of unity in Washington and and whether, you know, on day two, it was, you know, it had ended, you know, as people began to respond to Biden from Texas on Biden’s, uh, Keystone Pipeline. Yeah. And I kind of said that, you know what you know, was it was it did it even last through day one is that Is that sense feel right to you being there and talking to people? Yeah. I mean, I don’t I don’t see Washington coming together right now in any way, shape or form. I mean, it’s still just a Z. Uh, this is divided as it waas. And I mean, honestly, all the unity talk is, um, you know, been picked up by both sides to wield against the other side essentially, which is, I guess, not surprising. But, um I mean, you have Texas Republicans saying, You know what? The Keystone Pipeline and those energy and climate actions that Biden took on his 1st and 2nd day, I guess in office saying, you know, what sort of unity is that’s showing Thio the Texans that rely on this industry for jobs. And, you know, we talked a lot about House Republicans and and about the state of, you know, the response to Trump in the inauguration and riot, you know, where were the Democrats? Now you’ve written recently about Henry Cuellar and his kind of signaling on on stopping the border wall and about, you know, other Democrats talking about the warning signs in the valley is there, you know? Are you seeing a little more signs of life among the House Democrats? Um, yeah. I mean, that’s a That’s something I’m still kind of watching for, just honestly, I’m really interested in how you know some Texas Democrats or position with Biden, who, you know, he’s a moderate. But some of his actions on energy and stuff like that could could put some of them in some tricky sort of positions. I mean, that’s what representative l I was talking about. I think you’re referencing, you know, he’s the new vice chair of the DNC, and I talked to him last week and he was telling me, basically, like, you know, he wants to be the voice of caution and reason in that role and doesn’t want Democrats to continue down some of the paths that they have gone down or at least fix their messaging on things like energy and guns on board, police funding and and stuff like that that he sort of thinks was behind some of the losses they had in South Texas. Um, but, you know, on the on the flip side, I I think that, you know, ah, lot of Texas Democrats are getting what they want also, and, you know, stand Thio, um, signed on to some big things, like the $15 minimum wage bill that Democrats rolled out today that has some Democrats from taxes signed onto it and pushing it it looks like I mean, I’m not sure I’m just going off of, you know what? I’ve seen others reporting, but it seems like there’s a chance for that’s actually, uh, potentially pass through. You know, the Senate with reconciliation. Um, so I mean, we’ll see where that goes. But it does seem like there’s, you know, some optimism among Texas Democrats, but it’s, you know, I I wonder whether there’s, uh, some caution that’s going on with that as well. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it’s interesting that, you know, traditionally, you know Texas has had. I mean, it’s a big delegation, and so there’s There’s bound to be more variety, but historically, Texas is always, you know, remains the home for MAWR. You know, for a larger share of people, that air toe oversimplify a little bit from the more moderate wing of the party. And I think the you know, the base of the party in Texas has been has become mawr liberal over time. If you look at public opinion, polling and party identification of, you know, the ideological identification of the people that identify as Democrats, um, the party has become more liberal on one hand. But if you compare it to Republicans, um, it’s still much it still much more heterogeneous party ideologically in Texas, you know, in other words, you know they’re still about, you know, between a quarter and a third of Democrats in this state still identify as moderate where you know the similar figure for Republicans is only, you know, around 10% or so offhand. And so it’s interesting that you’re seeing that play out. Um, you know, Biden is managing that in big in national terms and in the big scope. But that fight has been something that’s gone on for a long time in in Texas, and and it continues. I mean, I don’t know if you were to heard this, but I talked to a state level elected official here who had been on the kind of debriefing conference call among Democratic elected officials that included both members of Congress and members of state legislative delegation. And that was a very hot topic of conversation among the people on that call, this sort of progress, how the progressive messaging had made it harder for for Texans and more for Democratic candidates and more moderate district’s, you know. So I think that fight is just going to continue, and I’m interested. It’s interesting that you see it there. I want to ask you a little bit more about the overall mood in in D. C right now, is we kind of move forward? We’ve gotten through the inauguration. How much of an obstacle is this impeachment going to be for? For Biden moving forward with this agenda in Congress? Um, that’s a good question. I mean, I don’t know that it, um we’ll have any, like, actual effect as much as it just kind of offers a chance for Republicans toe point. Another reason why they, you know, aren’t jumping on his call for unity. And, um, maybe not backing some of the things that he hopes they would. But, um, yeah, I don’t know. I just kind of think that Washington was already very, very divided and the impeachment’s, I guess, the symptom of that. But I don’t really think it’s, um, actually causing anything. Um, but that’s my read of it. I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong. Are you Are you picking up signs of by any You know, signs of buyer’s regret among Democrats or they kind of still holding the line. I haven’t for many I’ve talked to I mean, it’s e have to wonder what? What? Biden. Thanks and whether he, you know, is a little bit annoyed that that’s lingering out there. But I honestly, from anybody I’ve talked to you. I haven’t heard anyone express you. No regrets at this point, I think the sense in Congress is that they really pretty much had to do it. I mean, that’s definitely the Democratic talking point that they’re they’re doing there. Their duty And how could you, you know, have a president who, in their view, incited this interaction attempt and not not pursue impeachment and not pursue it all the way and try toe, you know, get him convicted in the Senate, and it does seem in extent. I mean, I could see the argument that they impeached him, so why would they just drop it at this point? Um, especially if the logic is that they’re they’re actually trying to punish him for what happened on January 6. Yeah. I mean, I think they’re pretty committed at this point. I mean, I would be surprised if they backed off, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t some people. Now, a few weeks later, um, you know, wishing there had maybe been another way you know, but that train, I mean, that train left the station that often, but that still doesn’t prevent you from having buyers remorse sometime. Uh, you know, I wanna wanna close up. I ask you just a little bit about the general mood in the city. I mean, you know, Austin is far away. Texas is far away. Um, you know, and the images that came out of Washington really seemed like the city, you know, it was obviously transformed for the inauguration. I’m wondering if you you know what if there’s a feeling of what the feeling is of the hangover from the riot, the capital, the unrest And, you know, the the aftermath of that and and the lingering sense that there are, you know that there are still because there’s still some guardsmen deployed and, you know, just give us a sense of what it’s like there right now. Yeah. I mean, D c was totally shut down. You know, eating up the inauguration, you couldn’t. I live in Arlington and I couldn’t really get there. I mean, I could, but it was not easy. Um, and obviously some of that’s gone away, but I you know, I think that there is sort of Ah, it’s a weird feeling. I mean, what happened and then having what happened to the capital and then and then having the need for, you know, basically a what felt like a military takeover of the city on, but doesn’t just go away right away, for sure. I mean, I remember on inauguration night there were, uh, obviously there were fireworks going off for the inauguration celebration. But I think there were some fireworks going off in my neighborhood, too. And it was like, uh, you know, it was a little bit worrisome at first what that might be, um, but and so I think, Yeah, I think a lot of people are sort of on edge. You you hear people on the hill who were actually there, I was not. So, you know, thankfully, that’s the case. But a lot of people who were I think they’re still, you know, going through kind of the fallout from that and having to go back to the hill. And, um, they could bring a lot for them, So, yeah, I mean, there’s definitely some lingering angst. Yeah. I mean, I’m struck by the you know, the two kind of conflicting currents there. You know, the fact that there is on one hand, you know, a lingering of anxiety or angst is you put it from the you know, there’s this pretty unprecedented and singular event. And on the other hand, you know, the fact that it doesn’t seem to have done much to erode the deep partisanship that, you know, dry has been driving politics in the city for the last couple of decades. I mean, it seems like those two things coexist. Kind of oddly together. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I definitely I’m pretty pretty pessimistic on, uh, politics, at least in terms of things like how divided the country is. And, you know, there was a moment after January 6 where it seemed like, I don’t know, or things actually going to change here a little bit, and at that moment lasted about five minutes on it. Just got right back to business as usual. The moment was five moments. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I mean, I think once we saw the voting patterns in the aftermath of of of the riot, I mean, I think people were you know. You know, if you’re one of the members of of Congress, say from the Texas delegation, just since as we’re talking about, if you’re one of the people that want voting for the motions anyway, you know, with, you know, the the broken doors and the broken glass all around you, you know, it’s a sign that you’re pretty committed in. You’re unlikely to really change your view at that point, right? Right. And I mean, those people, those lawmakers air are doing what they, you know, feel their constituents want them to do. They’re not going to do it if they’re mean, for the most part, probably not going to do it if they’re not going to get reelected or don’t think that they will. So obviously they’re not, You know, they’re not too concerned about repercussions, right? You know? And so, yeah, I mean, I think that probably is. You know, it zone interesting. It’s an interesting twist, and that’s a kind of Ah, that’s a Democrat. You know, it’s a that’s an explanation based on democratic mechanisms for people that were defending the threat to democracy, which, you know, I mean, it’s a you know, that’s maybe a little too oversimplified, but I don’t think by very much. So what are you watching moving forward then? I don’t want you to give up any big scoops if you’re working on something. But you know what? What are you watching now is what, Aziz? We move forward in the next few weeks, you’d be riding on for a Texas audience. Yeah. I mean, I like I said earlier, I am really interested to see how how some of the more moderate Texas Democrats interact with the Biden administration and whether, um, you know, he does start to get some push back on, especially on stuff like energy. Uh, and you know, I’m interested in his nominations moving forward today. Corn and and Cruz both eso that they wanted a Judiciary Committee hearing for his DHS pick because of basically because of immigration and how you know how big of an issue that’s going to be, especially for Texas. So, you know, trying to figure out how this transition goes and kind of what, where are all Texans are gonna play in it? Um, which so far has kind of been minimal, So I’m hoping they pick it up a little bit, you know? Well, you know, I mean, I think, you know, speaking of business as usual, I mean, I think the sign that ah lot of the Texas leadership in the in Texas elected leadership to clear the Republican leadership has have seized on immigration as something to really focus on, you know, is really one of those factors that is, you know, was central. And talk to me points to the fact that you know a lot of the politics that were central to the Republican Party before Trump, you know, are now going to be picked up again and that the science of immigration is one of the hallmarks of Texas public opinion and politics in this state. It’s It’s a great unifier for the Republican Party in most circumstances. And I guess one of the reasons we’re seeing those got, you know, the people like Cruz and Corn and seize on it. And I think we’ve not seen the end of that. Yeah, I mean, and it’s It’s obviously notable that immigration is the first big thing that Biden chose to kind of dive into. And so e mean watching that immigration proposal that he put out move forward, which, obviously, it’s not gonna become law. But, you know, kind of seeing who in Texas goes for That doesn’t is gonna be really fascinating and kind of what members from Texas push forward to get into that. If it ever gets any traction, be interesting. Well, we will look for you to follow this story from Washington. I appreciate you taking some time today. Thanks for being here on. You know, you’re welcome back anytime. Ben Woman from the Houston Chronicle. Be safe out there. Thanks. Thanks for having me. You are welcome. That’s it for today. Thanks to Ben again for being here, thanks to our staff and technical crew in the College of Liberal Arts and the Liberal Arts Development Studio. And we will be back again next week with second reading Podcast to be Well, second reading Podcast is a production of the Texas Politics Project at the University of Texas at Austin