Episode 68 – Racial Justice and the Tech Community: A Conversation with Brett Hurt

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Mhm. All right, Uh, really excited to have a conversation with Brett Hurt. Who is the CEO of data dot World, the co owner of Hurt Family Investments, Founder of bizarre voice and core metrics. Henry, crown fellow at the Aspen Institute. Um, a Ted Dexter dad and a husband. Most important of all on part of the Austin 100 a friend. Brett, welcome to race and democracy.

[0:00:51 Brett] Thank you so much, Peniel. It’s a really big pleasure to be on here, so thank you so much for including me.

[0:00:57 Peniel] You know, it’s Black History Month and you know, I’ve I’ve known Brett for a couple of years, and this past year I’ve reread your open letter to tech CEOs and leaders and the importance of diversity. Really important letter. But I want to talk about tech Black History Month. The wealth gap, Um, really your own journey to you know, you’re part of different groups. White men for racial justice. Uh, in the aftermath of last year, you know, the aftermath of George Floyd’s murder. Black lives matter two point oh, protests the most racially divisive presidential election in American history. And really, just even recently, we think about three Wednesdays, uh, in January last month, the assault on the capital, the white supremacist assault on January 6th, the impeachment, the second impeachment of former President Trump on January 13th. And finally the the inauguration of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, the first black woman in South Asian Woman VP. And in Amanda Gorman is the hill. We climb poems, so there’s a lot toe

[0:02:05 Brett] Digest here

[0:02:07 Peniel] on day, and the first thing I wanna talk to you about is really your own journey. Because I think this letter to tech CEOs and on the importance of diversity, which is available on medium for everyone really important letter, uh, tell us how you got to this point where right now you really think about racial justice is being so central toe what you’re trying to do as an entrepreneur and just just as a just as a person,

[0:02:33 Brett] great. I’m happy to do that. There’s a lot thio unpack there. So my own journey has, um, a young boy growing up in Austin is that for the most part I waas oblivious to race disparities. I let me just let me just start out with kind of how I’m so lucky to be on your podcast. And And I really enjoyed working with you on a number of different initiatives and hold you an incredibly high regard. And I’m absolutely amazed and happy for you with how well your book did last year. So let me just start out with that and just compliment you as both a leader for the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy, as well as just getting such high achievements on your book. That has to be a dream come true. As you know, I have my own book out called Entrepreneurs Essentials, which is available for free on medium dot com. And you know, it just I know how much time goes into that, And it just has to be a dream come true for you. So just my kudos and gratitude to you and what you dio eso growing up in Austin. He was very lucky and having a mom who really believed in me from birth and and when I was four years old, I was taking apart Pong and trying to put it back together and figure out how it works, as opposed to just be satisfied with playing the game. And that led her to think I may be interested in computers, and she bought me my first computer when I was age seven, and my grandfather taught at UT Austin his entire career. He taught very advanced mathematics courses. He grew up during the Great Depression, the oldest son in his family. His father deserted the family during the Great Depression. My great grandfather never heard from him again, and he became kind of a bit of the patriarch, right. He had to help his mom raised the other Children. They didn’t have any money, you know, face starvation and paid his way through Ut Austin, where he literally would tutor people on courses that they that he hadn’t even learned. So he would like, learn the course really quickly to be able to teach them and tutor them. And that’s how he paid his way through school. He was very, very smart. Andi, you know, really quizzed me constantly is a kid on mathematics. And when I was about, you know, six or seventh grade. I tested about 12th grade math level, and it was because of him. It wasn’t always comfortable to be around him because he was constantly quizzing me on that. But he, along with my mom, saw this interest in computers and thought that that would lead to my interest in mathematics. And he was right. That turned out to be my best subject. And so my mom and him, you know, kind of teamed up, bought me my first computer and my mom, then learn how to program with me, which is really interesting, right? At age seven. Andi I was born in Austin, which had UT Austin, which bought a lot of the original Cray Super Computers. It was a Beverly Hill abilities type of story and that UT literally has lots of land that oil was discovered on, which gave them the endowment and the money to be able to buy these Cray supercomputers attracted the researchers birth the tech industry here. Of course, I was oblivious to all This is a kid, right? And what that meant Waas, that I was a great beneficiary of people that came before me, and that’s how my mom was able to drop me off at user group meetings for programming when I was 10 years old like that existed in Austin in 1982 was born in 70

[0:06:52 Peniel] two.

[0:06:53 Brett] So very unusual, like really lucky in the privileged background and the Privilege City that I had been born into for what would ultimately become my career. And, you know, I’ve started six businesses now and have been very fortunate as an entrepreneur. Currently, I’m the CEO and co founder of Data Dot World, which is a B corporations. My first B corporations been named in the top 10% of the corporations for the last three years in a row. I think it’s the most ambitious company that I’ve started. It’s now the world’s largest collaborative data community. Data sets on everything you can imagine, you know, from racial issues and disparity to poverty, to climate change, to cancer, to coma. 19. If you can dream of it and its data, it’s there.

[0:07:46 Peniel] This is a great segue, Brett, in terms of what data dot world. But with you having founded all these businesses, let’s discuss the wealth gap and really, what tech can do the racial wealth gap, the racial income gap. But I’m really thinking about wealth and the lack of not just racial diversity in tech, but really the lack of, um, having black Americans, uh, you know, in Tech, both Silicon Valley in California, but also, you know, you’re a part one of the charter members. I think Silicon Hills, right here in Austin. What is the role before we dive into the details? What do you think? And, you know, I know from reading your your great piece of medium, but not everybody has read it. What do you think? The role, the responsibility off tech, wealthy entrepreneurs is in terms of the wealth gap. Also just racial justice. Broadly. What do you think the role is, especially in light of the last

[0:08:48 Brett] year? Yes. I wanna honor the moment that we’re in. Um, so the you know, Thio, go back to your previous question. Then I’ll answer that we’re in a really interesting moment in the history of the country right now. As you mentioned, you know, we have our first female vice president, who is also black American and also a Asian American. Um, we had Amanda Gorman give that incredibly electric speech, you know, poem in front of the nation. And I think I was watching videos she went from, you know, some, like tens of thousands of Twitter followers, toe over a million day

[0:09:31 Peniel] on Instagram. I saw her when she went from she immediately after the poem got up to a million and then it was like 2.8 million and it might be five million now. It’s just it’s incredible. The power of I thought that was about the power not just the social media and technology, but the power of ideas and humanity. Uh, you know, it really incredible and incredibly

[0:09:54 Brett] incredibly inspiring. And and so let me just let me just talk a bit about how I got here and why this is important to me. And then I’ll address what I think CEO should be doing in tech eso you know? So it was a product of a pretty privilege upbringing. My parents definitely we’re not wealthy, but they were entrepreneurs. Sometime I was born, they were more your classic lifestyle entrepreneurs. And, you know, I was in a household which recognized my talent early on and got me into programming. And that turned out to be, you know, the dominant field. I mean, it is true that nerds have kind of inherited the Earth. You know, when I was growing up, there were movies like Revenge of the Nerds and things like that. And I was picked on a lot as a child growing up. So although I can never know what it feels like to be a black American, I certainly know what it feels like to be treated as the other. I’m also Jewish, which is another type of other. But, you know, growing up, I was picked on very heavily because I was doing something so different. I programmed over 40 hours a week from age 7 to 21 and, you know, a lot of other kids were playing outside. I was inside programming and people thought that was so weird. And when you’re the other, um, people sometimes or mean and you know, I wasn’t playing football, I wasn’t doing all those normal things. I did a little bit of that here and there. I definitely was athletic in some ways, but but I largely spent my childhood just programming and that that led to me having this real understanding of what it feels like. And I kept feeling like if Onley people knew who I am inside and stop judging me for the outside, you know, we would have a better world and I felt that way, so much growing up and some of the best connections I had growing up. We’re on bulletin board systems, which were the early mediums of electronic communication, where literally we could communicate via computer via text. I ran some of the early BBS is in Austin, and we could communicate without any judgment of what we look like. I didn’t know if I was communicating with someone that’s male or female on the other side. I didn’t know what the races. I didn’t know anything about their socio economic position. We were just having a brain to brain connection, and I love that, and I talked about that two people as we connected online. I had some of my most meaningful connections on my bulletin board system because we were having that brain to brain connection, so I grew up with that as a framework and then in tech, I became a successful entrepreneur working alongside great teams, but primarily honestly, with people that were a lot like me, you know, s

[0:13:10 Peniel] basically young, young white men.

[0:13:13 Brett] Yeah, primarily. I mean, and not because there was any racist bone at all. I didn’t have a, you know, racist notion at all. Um, but because I was kind of in this group of programmers that were primarily young white men now, I didn’t realize that that was because of, ah, lot of historic oppression and even current oppression. I didn’t realize that Austin was a segregated city at one point, and that’s why we have East Austin. Um and I didn’t realize, you know, until 2020 that the median black family wealth in America is about 18 to 1/10 depending on which statistics you look at of the median white family wealth that was shocking to me. Toe learn in 2020. I just couldn’t believe it. I mean, it was just, you know, that’s like a gut punch when when you learn that because there’s no way you can explain that wealth disparity than to look at the historic oppression that we’ve had, starting with slavery, then going through Jim Crow. And so that type of statistic compels you toe act, and I just wish I had acted earlier. You know, I’m turning 49 on Valentine’s Day this year

[0:14:44 Peniel] reporting happy, happy

[0:14:46 Brett] early birthday.

[0:14:47 Peniel] You know, it z interesting. What you say about that, uh, statistic can only move you because other people try toe. Really? Explain away that statistic, really, in my belief, through basically

[0:15:02 Brett] eugenics and scientific racism,

[0:15:04 Peniel] behavior and culture. And I know you, you know, and is somebody who is African American and you’re you’re Jewish, American. We’ve been victims both of us, with systems of racial oppression historically in different ways and at times convergent ways. But what’s so interesting is that you seeing that statistic and thinking to yourself, there’s nothing else that can explain it. It really does show, uh, something within you where you’re you’re not. You’re not where a lot of white Americans truly are mesmerized by these. These this idea that there are sort of cultural differences. We, we we, you know, racial differences. We pathologize black people s so we can explain away, uh, the disparities. You know, you just mentioned 1/8 toe, 1/10 of income, But when you really humanized black people you realize, okay, these air systems and structures set up because you’re not thinking to yourself black people are somehow worse than than white people. You’re just You’re saying, Hey, they are They are, you know, you know, they believe the same red, but they’ve had different historical circumstances and there’s just different systems. So I do have to say and I like that you say that and I think that shows a lot that says a lot about you. But one thing I have to say that as a nation, we are not yet their e think that that that progress, we would make a lot more progress if we if we together saw data like that and said, Okay, that data shows me something’s wrong with the systems and the structures rather than saying, Hey, these black kids need to study harder on, you know, value education. Because, really, honestly, that’s the line we get that really is. And it’s a it’s an important line. Uh, me and you are the same age, and I’ve heard it my whole life. Sometimes even black people will say it, and it’s really unfortunate because it prevents us from really moving the needle and and really attacking these structures in these systems of inequality.

[0:17:08 Brett] Well, honestly, when I hear someone say eugenics and I haven’t heard someone say that to me for a long, long time, but it makes me want to throw up, it literally just breaks my heart. Um, you know, all human beings are born with similar potential. I mean, there are differences that that we have in terms of what our innate callings in life. What’s our true calling in terms of what our field is gonna be, Um, are we gonna find that true calling one of the best books I ever read His Man’s search for Meaning by Victor Frankel, which he’s a Holocaust survivor, survive four concentration camps, including Auschwitz, lost his entire family and wrote this really just open heart book about what he learned about human nature and what really drives us and the take away is that you have to live. You have to find what you’re meaning is in life and then live that to its fullest. And I know you’re living your meaning and I know that I’m living my meaning. So first of all, just it’s just that discovery processes, kid to find out what is our calling. And then it’s the support structures that we have around us. Thio hopefully support us in that I mean, my block is named lucky seven dot io lucky seven because it’s a tribute to my mom who unfortunately passed away 10 years ago. It’s a tribute to her for helping me find my passion at that age. And I named it, you know, lucky seven. You know, 10 years ago, I mean, I named it. That is a tribute to an amazing woman. My dad was also great, so I don’t wanna just leave my dad out of this, But my mom was really the driving force for technology. Um, my dad didn’t really understand what I was doing growing up. He was an inventor of physical products, and everything I invented was virtual, but, you know, so he kind of he kind of picked on me a little bit on that. Like, I don’t really know what you’re doing. Where is my mom knew I was living my passion, but they were both great parents. I really want to honor that. And and I missed them both. Unfortunately, he passed away as well. Um, so you know, So I want it. I want to just, uh, mentioned that, um, thief eugenics thing is truly offensive to me. I mean, that’s that’s his offensive as what people have said about Jewish people. Um, and you know what I saw when I when I saw George Floyd die on camera? Um, it truly broke, You know, my heart and so many people in the nation’s heart. But how I try to relate that to other people. As I said, just imagine, Like, I try to relate that to the Jewish communities. I was like, Just imagine if that was someone Jewish and we’re watching them die like that because they were Jewish. And how would that make you feel? Because some of my white friends were up in arms. I shouldn’t even say white friends. So my white acquaintances were up in arms about the protest during co vid and saying,

[0:20:28 Peniel] When you say up in arms, let’s let’s let’s let’s chat about that. When you say up in arms in a negative way, Brett like their you know what was there, what was there. Either be for inspiration

[0:20:39 Brett] within a very privileged way in the way of like, we’re in this cove in 19 time, people were just critiquing all of these people that were protest in the lockdowns. And now they were conflating that with kind of what about is, um um which is what you see with, like, really die hard trump supporters? They were They were conflating that to say And now here, these people of color out there. And of course, there were white people also joining the protests. But now there are these people of color pro testing during Cove in and nobody is saying anything about it. And I just thought to myself, that is such a privileged way to think, because if it was your group, you know, whatever your group is, if it was a let’s take it. If it was a Trump supporter that was being killed, you know, on the ground by some diehard Democrat, um, cop, how would we have you that if you were if you were in the Trump camp? I’m not in the trump camp clearly, but, you know, and I’m a proud independent voter, I voted for his many Republicans. A zai have Democrats and I really try to maintain the centrist position. It’s far the reason I love Joe Biden. So much is I really do believe that. He says what he means when he wants to create unity, and I think our country needs it more than ever. But it was it was really offensive to me, and I tried to relate it to white acquaintances on those terms. To say you need Thio. Think about how you would act in this moment if it was whatever identity group you are in that was literally being choked to death, knee on the neck in broad daylight on camera, just because of their identity group on do you know, because of historic racism in the country? So it really bothered me that really, really bothered me and the eugenics movement just another way to kind of explain away a problem. Um, and it’s and it’s just it’s just it makes me wanna throw up when I see things like that.

[0:23:02 Peniel] And now let’s let’s talk. Let’s talk about, um, where we’re at in terms of the my my larger question about what? What do you feel the responsibility of tech, including your own personal responsibility. Professional responsibility is in light of all these events. Um, that happened this past year.

[0:23:23 Brett] So I feel like the more educated you become on these issues and this this his historic, you know, kind of oppression in our country. The Mauritz should move you to act and the more privilege you have, whether that was given to you or earned or a combination of both. And I’ll tell you, you know, when I got married, I $2000 my wife had $2000 or parents didn’t give us any money. We worked very hard for what we have. But there’s no doubt that being white in America opened doors for me. I was oblivious to that. Um, you know, E was oblivious to it, But it was there. There’s no doubt it was there. I mean, it’s just the way our country has been set up. It was there, but I’ve had a lot of grit and a lot of luck to get to this point, and it gives me a platform now to create change and with, you know, with with with wealth comes great responsibility. And so now I can use that platform the Mawr educated. I’ve become to say tech has a responsibility to hire people that aren’t just in their direct social network. Like if you just do a thought exercise, you say you’ve got one population which has an 8 to 10th of the wealth of another population. Well, forget about race for a second. What are the cultural difference is going to be in the population that literally has an 8 to 20th of the wealth. There are gonna be some cultural differences, right? Where all people, we’re all human beings, that they’re going to be some cultural differences. Your access to education is going to be dramatically different. Your access, Teoh. A stable family support structure can be very different because, you know, your you’ll have parents. They’re working multiple jobs. Um, the divorce rates can be higher. Um, you know, drug use could be higher. There’s there’s a lot of bad things that happen in poverty versus societies and, you know, groups which have mawr wealth from the beginning and the way our country was set up. It was set up for white people to have more wealth from the beginning. Started with land grants and it went on and on and on through Jim Crow. Oppression of voting. You know, we saw even oppression, oppression of voting just recently in Georgia in, uh, you know, 2018 with Stacey Abrams and then a revenge tour in terms of getting people out there to vote and creating access to the vote. And we just saw a historic win in Georgia on multiple fronts. Both president, you know, former President Trump lose their as well as the two senators get elected, you know, we’re knock and and also, which was incredible, right? I mean, I don’t I don’t know if anybody really expected that. I didn’t expect them both to win. Personally, I supported them both, but I didn’t expect that both. Well,

[0:26:37 Peniel] now, because because of that victory, they’re gonna Biden’s 1.9 trillion. Um, you know, pandemic package, it seems like it’s going to pass through a but budget reconciliation process. So that was, I think when we think about the three Wednesdays in January of this year, we should also have never forget the Tuesday January 5th, because Warnock really is, um, an extension of Dr Martin Luther King Jr. You know, literally and figuratively. He’s the He’s the pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church. Dr. King’s

[0:27:14 Brett] uh,

[0:27:16 Peniel] former pulpit and and also Assef would not have won 33 year old, very progressive, but but really, uh, without war knock, you know, Warnock and OSF sort of revived aspects of the Black Jewish Coalition, an alliance that was, you know, a really big part of the first half of the 20th century, really deeply up into the sixties. Um, you know, civil rights struggles. So I think that’s really important to remember the the impact of January 5th as well as the subsequent three

[0:27:49 Brett] Wednesdays

[0:27:51 Peniel] and again, you know, we’re not the first black senator elected out of the state of Georgia in American history.

[0:27:57 Brett] Yeah, yeah, it’s amazing. I mean, it’s it’s a it’s a historic achievement. We’re living in historic times, and there is a generational change occurring in the country right now. It’s hard to see that when things are close and the country’s so divided. But we are in the midst of change, and we’re in the midst of a change to America becoming mawr American. That’s what I love the most about the way that Biden and Harris speak about it is that we’ve created the most diverse cabinet in history. Well, look, the power of America is in its diversity. I mean, if if America was just white male, it would be super boring. You know a lot of what we love culturally, what we love from a you know, restaurant and literature and architecture. Er and company. And so many aspects of the melting pot that we have here. That is what makes America American. And frankly, we’re almost all immigrants here. Your only Not an immigrant if you’re Native American, right? So I’m an immigrant too. We are all immigrants

[0:29:10 Peniel] here on

[0:29:10 Brett] the whole white construct was really invented out of power if you went back. You know, 400 years in history and you ask people what race they were, they would say they’re English or Scottish or French. They wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about. When you said white, that concept didn’t even exist hundreds of years ago. That was an invented concept, um, to kind of unify power. And so the more you learn about this, the more it moves you to say, Okay, I have a responsibility to break out of just the groups that I’m most, um, present in because of the fact that that’s the way the country has been set up to get in other populations and pull them into tech and create, um, you know, um, abundance of possibilities there which eventually makes this wealth gap go down to the point where hopefully we erase it entirely and race just becomes a, you know, afterthought as opposed Thio something that people really think about and use as a dividing mechanism. That’s that’s the country that I wanna live in. You know, my good friend Stephen to bury laid it out so well, he’s He gave a very good Ted speech a while back. I would encourage everybody to look at it on why the east side of cities usually eyes where the poor people live, and it’s actually because of the way the winds blow and pollution. And so the winds tend to blow to the east, and so the country has been set up in cities have been set up in a way where the east side of cities are where the poor people are Onda were segregated because that is where the winds blow the pollution. How how sad is that? But that’s but that’s the fact. You know, that’s just the way things were set up. And and so the Mawr. It’s kind of like The Matrix, like taking the Red Pill, the Mawr and Mawr. You realize the way that society has been set up, the more you start to question the structures around you and question why air the majority of people in tech? White male? Why are so many eso fue even females on board of directors and in Tech? Um, why

[0:31:36 Peniel] and and that’s that’s what I want us to drill deep down in that in the Austin sense, Brett on really even push you on the politics when you say you said you’re a centrist to me, you have gone

[0:31:48 Brett] back and forth this

[0:31:50 Peniel] before. Um um e think my my listeners know I wouldn’t call myself a centrist. I definitely believe that Dr Martin Luther King Jr is building a beloved community. But one of the things I do in my new book is talking about King as a revolutionary, always non violent, but always a revolutionary. He wanted us to redistribute justice. That meant redistribution of wealth and and privilege. It didn’t mean we’re all gonna live in the same house and sleep on the same bed. It meant that we were gonna have, you know, equity and equality and that we were such a to be a good country before even being a great country, we had to end things like poverty and homelessness, things that we actually have. The resource is to end. We all know we do. We don’t have the political will. So when you say centrist and we think about Democrats and Republicans, especially now in light of January 6th and Q and on and representatives that we’ve seen that are fomenting violence, including the former president of United States Um, how can what is I want to ask you, What is centrism in this new

[0:32:59 Brett] normal? What

[0:33:01 Peniel] is centrism in the new normal we have because I know they’re They’re, you know, Republicans like Nelson Rockefeller, Jack Camp, who used to talk about poverty, talk about different things, even though Rockefeller also did the drug laws and stuff. So it’s a mixed legacy, But certainly I think he cared for people cared about people. Um, but what are we to do in this new in this new normal. You know, Mitch McConnell, Supreme Court packing that the Republicans successfully did by blocking Merrick Garland, Um, really no more No norms and rules and procedures again. The Cuban on the trumpism, the maga, the violence, the racism. What is centrism in this new political context is I know what it was before. But what is it now?

[0:33:46 Brett] Yeah, I mean, it’s a very good question. I’ve been asking myself the same thing. Um, I am clearly not a Trump supporter or a Trumpian supporter. And what I mean by that is that, you know, the more radical there that the faction of the Republican Party becomes with the most recent example being Marjorie Taylor Green and thank goodness that they at least voted or off the committees. But it was actually pretty close to that was too close for comfort to, I think 199 Republicans voted to keep her on the committees. You know, budget and education committees that that stuff is very disturbing to me, both as a Jewish person is someone who cares about racial equity. Who cares about bringing out the best in America that is not the best in America. There is no part of America that should be embracing conspiracy theories or space lasers from Jews starting forest fires in California. I told Levi about that last night, and he started laughing hysterically because it was just so silly to him. Is an 11 year old and I was like, No, I’m actually seriously by That’s actually what they believe. Andi just couldn’t believe it. It was just like, you know, comedy. But I mean, the things that people have believed about black Americans has also been comedy in a very sad way to I mean, you brought up eugenics that Z Like I said, That makes me want to throw up. So So I Here’s what I believe. I believe that we need two strong parties. I desperately believe that I don’t believe that our country can just be governed by a single party. I don’t think that’s healthy. I think that the best, the best things I’ve seen in business come out of fierce debate and come out of multiple perspectives and, you know, dated out world. One of the things that cover in my open letter on the importance of diversity and tech, and I talk about my journey in there and lay out my recommendations. Is it dated out World now is 54% either female or people of color. I mean, that’s a great achievement in Tech, and it starts the baseline with us being around 83 people for when we’re 800 people on, etcetera. So it starts this. You know, it’s early enough on where it can have a cumulative growing impact. But I want to be really clear. I am not at all in favor off Republicans that turn their eye the other way on the character issues and the conspiracy issues of a faction of the Republican Party. But I believe that the centrists in the party are mainly found in a group that I’m heavily involved in, called No labels, no labels has 56 Congress people in it, and it has 16 senators in it. And what passed over December for that cove in 19 relief bill, which was over $900 billion that came out of no labels that came out of the problem solvers caucus. So there are members of Congress and senators who still want to find some level of central kind of

[0:37:16 Peniel] well, well, And I think you’ve got the Lincoln Project has done very good work talking about justice and and sort of trying to recapture the soul of the Republican Party. I think we need multiple parties. Bread. I just think that

[0:37:30 Brett] I don’t think we need a Patriot party, though under Trump. Just to be

[0:37:33 Peniel] clear, I Yeah, I think we need multiple parties. But on some levels, if we had multiple parties, you think about different systems in Germany and other places where there are multiple party Israel to where people have to do coalitions, you know, So there could be far right And what some people call far left me. Personally, I don’t think a O. C is far left. I think we don’t have a conception of what a true far left party is in the context of American democracy. Because we don’t we don’t have way. We don’t have those parties anymore. I mean, I still think even the green New Deal is basically, uh and even what Bernie Sanders was talking about. They’re basically aspect of the the state liberalism of the 19 thirties and forties maybe ramped up a few degrees. But there’s still there’s no there’s no fundamental party in the United States that that has mainstream cachet that wants to sort of reorder social economic relations in a way that we could truly call it a far left party. But what I’m interested in is when you think about Democrats and Republicans now, what do we do when again? 74 million people voted for Trump. 81 million people voted for Biden, but the 74 million who voted for Trump maybe some have been led astray. Uh, not gonna label all of them, but the the president and the policies were racially divisive. Uh, they were redistributive upwards from the bottom up. When we think about the 2017 tax bill, they were anti immigrant, anti LGBT Q A. They were interested in voter suppression. Um, these aren’t These aren’t real core tenets of American democracy. What do we do if we have a whole party that is not interested in democracy but is interested in militias is interested in in terror, is interested in electing folks who are interested in conspiracies that are anti Semitic that are racist? What do we dio And that’s what I and you know, this connects with tech in a big way because of Facebook. You know, you’re part of this

[0:39:48 Brett] whole ecosystem.

[0:39:49 Peniel] One of the one of the thought leaders. Ah, Brett, what do we do in terms of leadership where we’ve got, you know, tech and Facebook and Twitter? They were allowing the president to do disinformation, and I don’t know who should be policing this, but some of us there has to be rail guards for democracy because there are rules, right? There are rules. When you start up your your B Corp, there are rules and we have to play by the rules if we’re gonna have a civil society and a just society. So what? What do you think about that in terms of really the role of tech there,

[0:40:21 Brett] Thio, I don’t know. The macro answer of what do we do? I know that what I could do is I can support bipartisan causes. I’m very involved in a pack. I spend a lot of time on the on that Ah, lot of people look at a pack unjustly as a right movement, and it’s not I’ve seen as many Democrats as Republicans speak of a pack. I mean, it’s only event I’ve been to where you can see Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer present and then followed by pence, right? I mean, there’s no other event in the country, Probably that you can see that, Um and it’s because they’re focused on a unifying issue and there are unifying issues even now, Onda, hopefully, you know, racial equity becomes a unifying issue because it should be, that is, that is the best of America way have all been, you know, lucky to be born here and have the opportunity. But some people are far luckier than others because of the way the systems were set up. So what I can do is I can leverage my wealth. I can leverage my influence, and I can fight, form or just society. And Aiken support

[0:41:38 Peniel] MAWR

[0:41:39 Brett] bipartisan legislation and lawmakers to fight for that. But they will lose me for sure if they if they embrace conspiracy theories or embrace racist ideals or you know, any any, any aspect of that. But I don’t see that in the Problem Solvers Caucus, and I don’t see that broadly in the A pack community. I see this level of like, we wanna work together. Now, let me let me address something because I’ve thought about this a lot. The 74 million Americans voted for Trump. We cannot write them off as racist. Um, you may say that that by voting for Trump, they’re not anti racist. Maybe be right in saying that. But unfortunately, there’s a lot of people that believe they’ve kind of neutralized politicians, and they neutralize them to the point where they’ve said, Well, they’re all corrupt, They’re all liars. And so we just were just voting for the policies that benefit us most. They’re voting in their personal self interest, and a lot of them haven’t taken the educational journey that I’ve taken. They just haven’t. So they’re they’re they’re ignorant. Off the way the country has been set up. There’s ignorant as I waas. Growing up is a kid here and being taught history in a very white, washed away. Um, you know, we didn’t dive deep on slavery when I was a kid, and we didn’t dive deep on Jim Crow. I went to an elementary school that was called Robert E. Lee Elementary School here in Austin didn’t even register with May. I mean, I’m sure I’m sure Black, black American growing up there. And I had many black American friends there. I’m sure registered with them. It didn’t register with me. I just thought, Well, he’s some general. I even think about the Civil War and what that was all about. And it got renamed a long time ago, all over a decade ago. But, um, you know, I and and look, I’m embarrassed that I didn’t think about that, but the reality waas that I was born into the majority and my skin color is white. And so I didn’t think about it because I didn’t have to think about it. And then as I grew older and I got Mawr exposed and I’m a very curious person and I’m constantly trying to study things, I was very singularly focused on just getting my footing in career for for most of my life. And now I’m in a different phase in my career, and I’ve really opened up my learning and got involved in groups like White Men for Racial Justice and got involved in the Aspen Institute and Henry Crown Fellowship and It’s really opened my eyes to what the systems have been and why I have been ASL lucky as I’ve been. And that doesn’t take away the grit element I would tell on Entrepreneur. They’re gonna have to work there but off to be a successful entrepreneur, period. But But it did stack the deck in my favor, and when you find out that the deck is stacked in your favor, you can either blindly go along with that and not do anything about it. And just be happy that the deck is stacked in your favor. Or you can say no, we’ll have a better America if there’s more equity overall. I mean, look, last year was the first was was the 100 year anniversary of women having the right to vote. How crazy is that? You know?

[0:45:24 Peniel] Well, yeah, and and that’s that’s white

[0:45:25 Brett] women breath black women,

[0:45:27 Peniel] um, mess. Not until 1975. You know, I wanna I wanna as we’re nearing the end of our time, I want to ask you about you know, what’s going on in Austin. And what do you think the role of tech data dot world should be in terms of closing the wealth gap in Austin. But more than that, really building a new generation of entrepreneurs. You know, we’ve got so many African American entrepreneurs here in the city, but also a feeder to University of Texas at Austin, Houston Tillotson, These different schools. What? What can be done? What can tech do? Um, to t to transform um Austin from being this racially and economically segregated city this very wealthy city, but one that’s very, very racially and economically segregated to really being a model for for

[0:46:27 Brett] for the nation. Well, I think I think that, you know, you and I have been spending a lot of time together on the Center for the Study of race and Democracy, and and I’m very confident that, uh, that you’re going, Teoh be able to really take that too much more elevated level. And I’ve been proud to help you in that. And I want to thank you again for helping me on my open letter to Texas Tech CEOs and leaders on the importance of diversity. You know, I asked eight friends Thio review that and give me input, and I want to honor that out of the eight friends, I asked. You spent the most time on it, right? And here I am, you know, spending, spending a lot of time with you. And so we’ve developed a really good friendship, and I’m really proud to help you with the center. I think that there’s a reason to have a lot of optimism about Austin when it comes to Tech. There’s a huge movement underway for people in tech to go to beyond diversity, courageous conversations, which you know Glenn Singleton founded. And I know that you’re very well aware of that. Um that gets people aware of what the issues are and and toe walk a mile on other people’s shoes. Um, so there’s there’s a There’s a lot of momentum from that aspect. You know? Stephen Strauss. I was just on the phone with him earlier this morning, and Stephen, you know, was the one that initially introduced me to be on diversity. Andi. He’s been he started a a group that really got start up to sign on early in on being much more diverse and really leading the way in diversity. Um, dated Outworld was one of the first groups to sign up one of the first companies to sign up as a probably corporation. Um, there’s a lot more B corporations in Austin like us. Starting this V Corporation has helped create that change here, So you’ve got a lot of momentum going in this direction. Of course, our mayor has really Mayor Steve Adler, who’s a good friend, has made a big effort here. But I think that what happened with George Floyd and Briana Taylor and Amada Aubrey and so many others in 2020 um, has opened up a lot of people’s eyes to this hysteric. Um, you know, history of oppression and the wealth gap, and I think you’re going to see Tech get much more involved, and I and I see that Austin is becoming a leader in that. But we have a long way to go. It’s going to take. It’s gonna take time to create more equity. Um, it’s it’s it’s not gonna happen overnight. It’s a very big challenge because of how long the inequity has existed and how the systems have been set up. And so it za journey that I think more and more CEOs, they’re going to sign up for a fight for I can tell you that in my history in Austin, I’ve been entrepreneur here a long time. I can’t remember another time when I’ve heard as many white CEO’s as well CEOs of color talking about this and doing really tangible things in this area to help correct these inequities and that that’s exciting to me. You know it is. It is back to the original in Mackay saying that, you know, the moral arc of justice is long that ultimately been Vince towards, uh, bends towards justice. Um, so I think we’re getting better and better, but we get a long way to go,

[0:50:07 Peniel] all right, we’ll close with that. Note of optimism. Brett, we’ve been having a discussion with Brett Hurt, who is the CEO of Data dot World, the co owner of Hurt Family Investments, the founder of Bizarre Voice and Core metrics. Henry, crown fellow at the Aspen Institute. A Ted Dexter. When we think about Ted talks and the Ted Conference, um, Dad and a husband and you know a friend and it’s been great talking to you about tech and racial justice and hopefully this is just the rial start of something really, really big. Where Austin becomes a model for the United States and the world in terms of, um, confronting these issues and really building, uh, more justice and equity for

[0:50:56 Brett] all people. You, you and I are brothers and arms on this, and I really appreciate our friendship. And you and I are just getting started, right? There’s a There’s a long journey ahead, but it’s a journey which ultimately ends with beauty in the streets, people dancing people in happy together on we’ve got to keep that in mind, you know, America becoming mawr, American America, living up to those original ideals.

[0:51:24 Peniel] Absolutely. We’re building the beloved community right here in

[0:51:27 Brett] Austin. Exactly. Thanks so much, my friend.

[0:51:30 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.