Ep. 77 – Justice, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion: A conversation with Estevan Delgado

Welcome to Race and Democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race democracy, public policy, social justice, and citizenship.

Okay. On today’s program, I’m very pleased to welcome Estefan Delgado. Who’s the director of justice equity diversity. And inclusion at the LBJ school of public affairs. One of my colleagues as they’ve unwelcomed to race and democracy. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Joseph, I’m so thankful and glad to be here today.

Now, you know, um, you are an LBJ. Alum proud LBJ alum, class of 2018. And you previously managed the Hispanic impact fund, uh, which is a signature program of the Austin community foundation, um, which is a philanthropic initiative charged with advancing Latino futures across central Texas. Um, and you help raise.

Just basically a bunch of money and resources for this bannock impact fund. And you’re currently on the leadership committee for action fund. Um, the to-dos learning center board of directors and the executive committee for the association of rice alumni, board of directors. In addition to the bachelor’s degree from rice and LBJ.

Master’s in public affairs. You’ve been really a key leader in venture philanthropy and social justice. So tell us about your background and how you. Interested in social justice. Definitely. You know, so I, um, my, you know, my, my family, my, my parents there, we have roots in Texas. And, um, you know, my, uh, my grandparents were migrant workers and they ended up in the Midwest and my, my parents, they actually ended up in Tennessee.

And so I grew up in Tennessee. I grew up away, um, from any other. Latinos essentially. And I grew up, you know, And a very kind of a white environment and, uh, not really kind of knowing what it was like to grow up around a lot of other people of color. And, um, and it was a really interesting, I think to grow up in the deep south and to kind of be constantly told what you can and can’t do because of the color of your skin.

And I think that had a lot of lasting impact on me and my trajectory from a very young age, you know, I. I think it was consistently told from a time when I was very young, that, you know, I wasn’t going to amount to very much because of, um, you know, the color of my skin and, you know, my, my racial background and when it was time to, you know, go off to college, uh, I wanted to know what it would be like to be around other people that look like me and other people that were darker than me.

And so I chose to come back to where my roots, where I chose to come back to Texas and it was one of the best things I could’ve done, you know, for myself and for my learning. Um, I was able to go to rice and Houston and being in Houston, one of the most, I guess now the most diverse city in the nation. Um, It was a great learning experience because here I was, um, being able to soak in so much and to be able to learn that being smart or being able to accomplish things wasn’t tied to racial identity.

Right. And that was, that was monumental for me because this was something that was. Ingrained in my psyche from a very young age because of where I grew up, um, because of who I was surrounded by because of what I was being taught in, in my school system. And when you think about rice, you’re your class of, um, what, what year did you graduate from rice?

I graduated in 2013, class of 2013. And rice is just about to have their first. Black president. Who’s also a patient dissent, uh, regional, uh, divorce. How, how was rice vis-a-vis diversity? So that means you, you were there during the first term of Barack Obama. How was, how was being a Latino at rice during that time?

Definitely, you know, it was an interesting time because rice, um, had just, uh, entered a period where we had no ethnic majority on campus. And while we were really excited to, um, you know, have more women than men on campus to have no ethnic majority to be truly this melting pot, we really weren’t talking about.

The effects of, um, our, our racial history. Right. Um, you know, in the rice charter, um, Rice university was, was able to come to fruition as a university because of William Marcia’s rices. Um, um, you know, um, uh, whole, he, you know, he was a slave holder and he made his, his millions, uh, as a, uh, uh, you know, a tech stylist, you know?

And so he had actually had in his charter that. Uh, the black and brown people couldn’t attend the university. And so we hadn’t yet grappled with, um, that history yet. We weren’t learning that history. I had no idea that any of this existed about our founder yet. Um, and so it’s only now, right that after, um, you know, the, uh, the black lives matter movement of, you know, the, the 2020 year that.

I think they’re actually really kind of taking a hard look at our history and we’re saying, yes, these are all amazing things that exist about rice and a, in a, in a multicultural city. Right. But at the same time, it’s really important that we, that we know about our history, that we, that we end, that we find a way forward so that we can really recenter ourselves as a, as a community.

And so this is a great segue into talking about what we’re doing together. Um, justice equity. Uh, diversity and inclusion, um, which is a new office at the LBJ school of public affairs that is committed to trying to transform the school’s composition, curriculum, culture, and community engagement. Um, by leading with justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion, um, you know, what are your, what’s your vision for the role as, uh, your role as director of Jedi?

You just started, uh, in January of 2022 this year, and definitely already been so much accomplished, including a visit from mayor Sylvester Turner of Houston. And I’m Dr. Colette Pierce Burnette just received the first Barbara Jordan public service award. And we had Rudy Metayer who executive director of the Texas black legislative caucus foundation.

And Princey, uh, Barry, uh, who works for the DNC in terms of diversity and inclusion and a former LBJ alum. So what are your, you know, some of your goals, um, for Jedi at the LBJ school, um, And how does that connect with both the 40 acres and trying to transform what’s happening in the 40 acres across the 40 acres, but community engagement in Austin and the state of Texas?

Well, I love this question. I think this is a great question because, um, as a public research university in Texas, right? I think our goal really should be to see how can we transform, um, You know, the composition of what a public service could really look like. Um, not only in the state of Texas, but nationally.

Um, if you look at, um, how we’re moving forward and kind of the civic engagement space, uh, at a national level, we have so many amazing, you know, people I think, going for change, but a lot of the times it’s built on the back of. You know, black and brown people really doing the trans whole dress transformational work, um, on the ground level.

And what I consistently want to be able to do is how to think about. How can we really create an environment where we are educating and giving people, um, that have historically been kept out of leader ship positions and public policy, right? How can we give them that springboard to not just be, um, you know, the behind the scenes workers, right.

But how can we truly be the leaders and all of these spaces? And that’s what I love about. What Jerry is doing at the LBJ school, we are truly thinking about how do we really provide this springboard so that we can transform the composition of what public policies, civic engagement, uh, and the future of leadership is going to look like and public affairs and public policy moving forward, um, in terms of how we’re going to do this, you know, it really is.

I think all what you just said. Uh, and so much more, we, um, I think really have a duty to, to kind of think about, um, how have we been teaching, uh, our students and providing an ecosystem and, and what is it that we need to tweak about this ecosystem longterm? Um, you know, you know, one thing I want to, um, ask you.

As Devin is, why is it important to think about these issues? Vis-a-vis a policy school for in all those four areas. Just however you want to, we can start and we’ll, we’ll take breaks, but curriculum composition, um, culture, community engagement. Why is it important? Cause you’re working for. Um, you know, the Spanish fund and, and you know, you you’ve done these initiatives, but why is it important at a school we’re top, top seven, top 10 public policy school?

Why is it so important in terms of research, uh, public service leadership? Impact-wise it’s so important. Definitely why we think we’re really, we are at the center of the conversation and we have an opportunity to shape not only the conversation, but how do these things take root and really take flight moving forward?

I mean, if we, if we look at the composition of our school, It’s an opportunity to say, um, yes, we recognize that, um, certain students, right. Have not had access, right. Um, either into, um, the walls of these types of institutions or certain students, haven’t had access to certain types of funding really to make, uh, their time.

Of, um, uh, learning experiences at public policy schools, um, you know, um, the easiest possible, right? To be able to soak in all what they need to, to be able to go out and really be those transformational leaders. Right. There’s so much to demystify. Right. And the higher education experience, especially. If you are a student of color or a first-generation student or a student that is an immigrant or a dreamer or an international student, right.

There’s so much knowledge, right. That sometimes we don’t have, or that we take for granted that if you are a student, that’s come from a background where these things are second nature, right. That they’re just passed down when it’s common occurrence that you’re able to go to a graduate level institution.

Right. How can we make. Easy for students so that it’s not another layer of, um, of, of, of a fight of a struggle that they’re also having to go up against and, and even so it’s, it’s helping students find belonging in that ecosystem. You know, if we look at. If we’re also talking about the composition of public policy and public affairs schools, and we’re thinking about who students are learning from ensuring that students have the cultural competency to learn from, right.

Those that look like them in these spaces. Right. Um, and ensuring that. They can come into a classroom and see people that look like them that are leading the research that are leading the teaching, better leading the policy reform to know that there’s a space for them in this field, I think can truly be transformational because I’m I, as somebody who grew up in the deep south and didn’t meet someone with a PhD who looked like me until I went off to.

An undergraduate institution, right? A top 20 undergraduate institution. Um, it signals right. So much can be possible, right? Not only with a top tier degree, but also just with the amazing network that these institutions can provide for you. Um, I talked about, um, you know, I think you just were talking about how representation matters and I think that’s really important.

What, what are, what are the, um, you know, challenges and opportunities. Vis-a-vis over representation at this moment, especially when we think about what happened two years ago, which impacted all of us in the context of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor. Um, what are some of the, the challenges and opportunities of representation, especially in the space of higher education, especially at a policy school, which is so impacted to, um, leadership, but also philanthropy.

Um, also administration, um, also for-profit and nonprofit. So I kind of feel like a policy school truly is the hub of everything, you know, business law, um, policy, uh, entrepreneurship, um, elected officials. So politics on a multi scaffolding, multi scaled way, um, international affairs. Uh, global policy. So what are some of the challenges and opportunities because certainly representation matters and our school doesn’t have enough diverse representation.

And I’m thinking very broadly and including, including our folks who are queer, who are trans, um, and you know, uh, BiPAP, black indigenous people of color as well. Definitely. Well, I think that. Some of the challenges that exist at public policy schools in terms of getting representation to a point where it can really take hold and that everyone can benefit from it, um, exist in a couple of different ways.

Um, I think one of them is that. I think sometimes people are fighting for which narrative is going to. Overcome. And when I say that, I mean that, um, not everyone, uh, is, is, um, as working off the, uh, is working off the same perspective. Some people are coming off of things, all of the. Analytical mindset.

Right? So they’re wondering, okay. If we make really big changes, changes, given everything that’s happened, what is going to be perceived of us. Right. And then other people in the landscape are saying, um, well, given everything that’s happened, Over the last two, three years, we have to make these changes. You know, we have to, you know, make these changes right now because, um, if not now when right.

And so as we, as we come at these challenges from very different, um, Mindsets. Um, sometimes it’s really hard to kind of sync up and to see eye to eye and so talk, it takes a lot of education. It takes a lot of education, a lot of conversations for us to be off to offer our colleagues. Um, And those that were in collaboration with on-ramps to figure out how we’re going to work together, how are we going to offer solutions?

Um, so that we can really, uh, move together in a, um, in a way that is, uh, collaborative, um, because, um, we always don’t see eye to eye on what is going to be that, that one way forward. Um, you know, there are some schools and, um, And the public policy space that are doing amazing things. You know, one of the things I know that you and I talk about is how the Harvard Kennedy school, you know, they are moving forward and ensuring that every, um, you know, public policy, student, public affairs student that goes through their program is, is taking a, uh, is taking a course on race and public policy, you know, and thinking about, you know, how might we be able to.

Potentially in the future brings something like this to, you know, the, the, the LBJ score, um, and what would be needed, right. To be able to do something like this, um, you know, uh, how would we bring this type of initiative right. To, to our institution and, and who would we need to be able to, um, to talk to right.

To, um, To be able to, uh, to really kind of engage in discussion to bring this to fruition. Um, let’s, let’s get, I’m want to harp in on that and get down in the weeds on that. I mean, part of what’s I’m lacking not only at the LBJ school, but policy schools in general, um, Harvard, the Kennedy school after George Floyd has now instituted this, this mandatory race and policy course, um, You know, let’s talk about that.

Y Y you know, you know, you didn’t have to take one during your two years, uh, at the LBJ school. Um, you know, I think that absolutely impoverishes students, because they’re not able to understand, um, the impact of policy decisions, both explicitly and implicitly on communities of color, on poor communities.

On trans and queer communities, indigenous communities. Um, why do you think that has been such a blind spot in terms of policy schools? Whereas obviously we know that there’s a Latin X studies and Mexican-American studies even right here at UT there’s black studies there’s women’s studies. Um, you know, queer studies is its own very well-respected.

Ethnic studies as a respect to feel. Why do you think, um, we, we, we sort of try to arm, uh, our students with two years of knowledge and they never ever have to think about race or intersectionality ever, ever, ever. Um, is that just sort of at the root of sort of, uh, public policy schools, how they were first envisioned maybe in, in, in, in decades, in previous decades?

W what is that? Um, I mean, I think this is a really, it’s a really great question. I think it’s at its core. Um, we’ve always been taught that we stay out of politics, right. That we dig into policy, but that we stay out of politics. Um, I would say in another sense, um, you know, even though we are trying to work in the.

Best interest of the people. There is still a pretty pervasive sense of, um, you know, uh, anti-blackness that, that sits, um, in our nation. And we really have to do education to get over this, you know, and I’m not saying that, um, you know, that everyone is, is anti-black, but there is an underlying sense of, you know, Of this, because sometimes we don’t want to go after those things that are truly transformational, right.

When we want to make decisions. And so, um, it w it does kind of take someone to go and, and put a stake in the sand and say that we’re going to do this. Um, if we are truly going to be transformational on the way and an unconventional and the way that we teach public policy, I also think. That. Um, I also think that if we, if we really listen to our students, you know, we, you and I, we we’ve been on our listening campaign with the students at the LBJ school.

And I think that there’s another really interesting point, um, to be made about why this type of curriculum is needed. And, and that is. Sometimes students don’t feel like we’re always, um, playing off the same, um, base level of knowledge. Right. Uh, students believe that sometimes they come to an institution even in when they’re in their other classes.

If the date. And what they’re studying is pointing that out, that, you know, systemic racism exists. And that is the conclusion that they come up with after, you know, doing a, I’m doing a research paper or after doing a, um, a PRP, a policy research project or a data model. And they. Explicitly state that, that then sometimes, um, people get, you know, feel weird about it and they want to back away.

And what they’re really looking for is this opportunity for all of us to, you know, to convene in the early days of collaborating and working together. As students, as faculty, as staff to say, Hey, we recognize that this exists in our field, that these are things that we’re going to have to talk about. Um, and that we’re not going to shy away from this just because we feel uncomfortable.

Right. But we’re actually going to convene and talk about these issues because this is at the forefront of our field right now. And we know that in order to. Change and how our system works. We have to be able to talk about this. We have to be able to call what’s happening in our country right now for what it is.

No beautiful. I want to now shift to community engagement in the sense of, you know, part of, um, our mission, both at a Jetta. And the LBJ school is, um, research and policy and sort of putting research and policy at the forefront. Um, but community engagement and impact is connected to that. And obviously you’ve done a lot of community engagement work in terms of fundraising, um, and, and building networks.

Uh, w w what’s the role of justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion in terms of community engagement and how does. Um, create a feedback loop for curriculum, for culture, for composition as well. You know? So I wanted to talk to you about that and both, you know, both within the context of the LBJ school in the 40 acres, but nationally, because we’ve seen.

So many different efforts, both corporate public, private partnerships, elected leaders, states, and city councils. Talk about things like reparations. Talk about things like, um, what happened to settlements, uh, land of indigenous people. Uh, talk about everything from water policy. And a school desegregation and climate change, and try to think about community enhancement and really try to lead with equity.

Right. Uh, whether we’re thinking about reparations or re-imagining public safety, um, so many different things, transportation policy, housing policy. So let’s discuss the community engagement impact and, uh, paradoxically, it requires raising a lot of resources, but it’s not just raising resources. It’s also relationships and building these relationships.

And what I think are the coalitions we need in Texas, because there’s such a big brown, black, um, you know, Asian American, Pacific Islander, indigenous white community. Definitely. I mean, I think this goes back at its core to, we don’t work in silos, you know, and we don’t work in silos. And I think also what we are doing at the LBJ school shouldn’t be looked at and, and its context as.

Only, you know, um, preparational work, right? We are doing very high quality, um, transformational work in itself, you know, with, um, Everyone that steps through the doors at the LBJ school, you know, we might be a institutional higher learning, but a lot of what we’re producing, you know, with our students has lasting and long-term effects and given the opportunity to collaborate with those in the field.

Right. We could really. Produce so much more and actually really help springboard so many other efforts, you know, there’s, um, you know, one of the, one of the. Foundational signature, um, programs of the, of the LBJ school centers around our, our PRP, our, our, our policy research product in which, um, in which organizations from outside the LBJ school, external external stakeholders come to us and say, Hey, we have an issue that we’re trying to solve.

Can we get some of the brightest minds at the LBJ school to actually work on this? I figure out, is there a way to move forward? And these aren’t just, you know, um, organizations in Austin, but these, you know, as you were mentioning, these are organizations nationally. These are organizations, you know, globally that are looking to come and tap into, you know, the diverse minds of our students to help them figure out a path forward.

Um, and I think what’s really, uh, apparent to us and how we move forward is figuring out how can we. You know, team up with organizations and stakeholders that are working on, you know, the. Multifaceted issues that are affecting, um, justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion, you know, in this ecosystem right now, so that we can really prepare our students interested in working in this space for, you know, the work that they were going to be doing.

Um, after the LBJ school. Are so many real world applicable opportunities, um, that, um, that I’m really excited to see, you know, how these, uh, these, um, you know, opportunities that you and I are working on getting started, you know, moving forward. And, uh, I don’t want to, um, put anything out into the, into the world that we’re not ready to announce yet, but I don’t know if you want to talk about any of these.

Um, yes. You know, I I’d love to talk about the strengthening democracy. Uh, the initiative and the speaker series. We live in the state of Texas, um, as Devin and we are really under assault. When we think about free speech, these assaults on critical race theory, uh, rumblings about, um, eliminating tenure here, uh, there’s a real chill happening and a backlash against, um, the freedoms that were very much aspirational and in the air in 2020 in the context of the pandemic and black lives matter.

Um, but ever since we’ve seen January 6th, 2021 and the assault on the us Capitol, that’s really been followed by real efforts to suppress voting rights, but also real efforts to chill the teaching of black history, the anti 1619 project, all under the rubric of critical race theory, anti critical race theory.

Um, for, for those of our listeners, you know, critical race theory is actually. Something that’s taught at, at law schools, elite law schools. That just basically, basically makes the argument that, uh, race is, uh, a constitutive or central element to the history of law and lawmaking in the United States. So it’s really, uh, you know, quite readily apparent.

It’s not controversial, nobody in K through 12 has ever taught that because it’s, it’s way past their pay grade. But now anything, if you teach about the Holocaust, if you teach. Um, the fact that Mexican Americans were lynched by the Texas Rangers habitually. And all you have to do is read Monica Munoz Martinez is brilliant.

Um, the injustice never leaves you to get the detailed archive on that. Um, you know, the lynching of black people, uh, racial segregation, somehow teaching that has become unpatriotic. And, uh, there’s all these efforts to censor that, you know, over 36, Have passed that. And with strengthening democracy, we’re interested in advocating civil dialogues from multiple perspectives.

So I’d love to discuss the way in which we’re trying to combat, um, these assaults on academic freedom and really critical thinking in the world’s most important democracy. Definitely. You know, I think, I mean, this is the big thing that we don’t really talk to. Each other, right. And today’s world, we, we, we talk at each other or we argue with each other.

And even if we are on the same side of the aisle sometimes, right? Like we, um, that we have so many different views that, um, we, we tend to just write each other off and we don’t engage in meaningful debates, our dialogue to help us understand why do we look at, um, Things the way that we do and what might be commonalities or common points for us to be able to move forward.

Um, and this right doesn’t mean that we give, um, uh, point views, right. A platform. This just means that we give, um, you know, uh, We give opposing the opposing viewpoint, you know, that is, um, within reason, right? Uh, an opportunity, uh, for engagement, right? Because if, if we’ve learned anything from. Are our mentors that we, we, we hold.

So dear at the LBJ school, you know, people like, um, that lake Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, it’s that in order to uphold the common good, right. We have to work together. Right. Because the more polarized that we get, the less opportunity there will ever be for a path forward. And so. I’m so glad that, you know, you’ve had the foresight to be able to ideate this opportunity for strengthening democracy, because I think we’ve already seen it, um, have such a profound effect at our institution.

Even within talking about, um, you know, voting rights, um, you know, we’ve been able to kind of think about, you know, how are we going to be able to move forward, given everything that’s been happening, um, within the landscape of Texas. And we have so many. More amazing, um, you know, conversations, slated, um, and I’m, I’m really excited to, uh, you know, for our, our, our, our audience to, to engage and, and, um, these will be readily available for everyone to view, not only on the LBJ school, you know, website YouTube, but you can also attend by, um, um, by, uh, you know, uh, registering to our, our list services.

Well, my, my final question for you is about culture. Um, what kind of culture do you hope? Uh, to be able to create both at the LBJ school, but also across the 40 acres. The city of Austin is one of the fastest growing cities in the country producing great amounts of wealth, but there’s also great inequality and segregation.

So when we lead with, um, justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion, what kind of culture are you hoping to build? Um, here, you know what, I’m really excited for us to build a culture where justice equity, diversity inclusion. Isn’t just limited to, you know, the work and initiatives that, that we are doing, you know, I have so many big ideas and I’m really excited too, to see how we, um, collaborate with all of our colleagues, both internally at the school and externally at the.

At the, um, across, you know, across the 40 acres, you know, we, we had our, you know, first school-wide diversity equity and inclusion meeting with our, with our committee this past week. And it was so heartening to hear that so many of our, um, Of our faculty already see the work that they’re doing as social justice work or as diversity, equity and inclusion work.

And I think what a lot of people are looking for is an opportunity to give that work a platform, and to come together and collaboration, you know, to, to be able to ideate together. Um, and I think what we can really afford our community. Place and space to be able to do that together, to be able to build traction together, to be able to, um, to get to that critical mass so that students.

Really feel that their LBJ experience or that their experience at the university of Texas, um, coalesces around these ideas, right around social justice, around, um, diversity, equity, inclusion around belonging. Right. And it’s not just then something that we talk about, but then it’s really truly something.

Um, that is ingrained in the experience. And I already see it taking root, you know, through, um, the event series that we are deploying through the conversations that we’re having with students, faculty, and staff, through the changes that we are going to be making to, um, orientation and how we’re recruiting students and how we are presenting the LBJ experience, um, and how we are meaningfully engaging with students around.

The work they do with the university. Um, it really makes me really excited to see where we’re going to be going from here because with each incremental step that we take, that’s one more step towards ensuring that we’re transforming the work that we’re doing, transforming the university and really ingraining this.

Into, um, the identity, um, not only of the culture, but of the cascading work that we do, not only at the LBJ school, um, but across the student experience. And finally, how are you feeling about this period? Are you hopeful, optimistic? Like what, what is your, what do you leave with. I’m very hopeful. I’m excited, you know, it’s not every day that you get to come to a school and build something, a new, um, and it’s not every day that you get amazing collaborators.

Um, you know, I. Get to show up every day and, um, and work with you and get to work with the CSR D staff and get to work with amazing professors, um, to really kind of think about how are we going to move this forward. What alumni are we going to bring into the fold? Who do we want to invite from across, you know, the globe to, to, um, put in front of our students to move this conversation forward?

I mean, really, um, the world is our oyster at this point and we have, um, you know, nothing but opportunity to really shape what we want this experience to look like. And, um, You know, I pride myself on being a lifelong learner. Um, and I, and definitely we have the opportunity to learn from other institutions and other departments on how they’ve done this in the past.

But I’m also really excited because I think we have an opportunity to do this in a way that’s truly LBJ and truly specific to how we want to see this work take, hold in the public policy space. And to my knowledge, we are taking. Really comprehensive view on how we want to move this forward. And, you know, that really makes me excited on how we are going to be able to ensure that we entrenched this into not only our identity, but how, um, justice equity, diversity and inclusion is practiced.

Uh, not only LBJ, but, but in public policy, you know, moving forward for the next generation. All right. Thank you. That’s a great way to end our, our great conversation. We’ve been dialoguing with S Devin Delgado, who is the director of justice, equity, diversity and inclusion at the LBJ school of public affairs.

He previously managed the Hispanic impact fund, um, a signature program out of Austin community foundation. Um, he is a graduate of both rice university and has a master’s of public affairs from LBJ school. And he currently sits on a number of leadership boards, including action fund, that todos Santos learning center, board of directors and executive committee for the association of rice alumni.

Uh, so thank you so much for speaking with us today. Thank you so much for having me I’m excited to, to be working with. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph that’s, P E N I E L  J O S E P H, and our website CSR D dot LBJ that U texas.edu.

And the center for study of race and democracies on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the liberal arts development studio at the college of liberal arts at the university of Texas at Austin. Thank you. .