Ep. 7 – From the Ivory Tower to Community Anchor: A Conversation with Virginia Cumberbatch

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship.

[0:00:21 Peniel] We’re very excited today to have Virginia Cumberbatch here with us who is the director of equity and advocacy at the division of Diversity and Community Engagement at the University of Texas at Austin and really ah, former LBJ School of Public Affairs alum, really one of our city’s foremost social justice advocates. Ah, working really at the intersection of higher education and community engagement and social activism. So we have and Virginia’s also ah, the co editor of ah, of a recent book, a very important book, as we saw it, the story of integration at the University of Texas, which I would encourage everyone to go out and purchase, even though I think the first copy, the first print run sold out a print run of over 2000 and now we’re reprinting it.

[0:01:13 Virginia] Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. This is super exciting. Um, but yeah, we’re super encouraged by the response that we’ve gotten not just within the university, but the community of Austin at large, as well as throughout Higher education about the importance of this book. But how this book sort of helps to contextualize the importance of historical memory and institutional memory and how it really helps us set the stage for current conversations around diversity and inclusion.

[0:01:43 Peniel] I want to circle back to the book. I want to ask you first of all, um, about your role at de de CE, because the division of diversity and community engagement at U. T. Is really a very capacious and the biggest in the country of its kind. That does. I want to call it more than just diversity and inclusion. It really is advocating equity, um, and and and Justice Ah, and fairness and opportunity, but focused on outcomes as well here at the university and the city of Austin proper. Can you tell me and tell us about your role there?

[0:02:22 Virginia] Sure. So, um, the Division of Diversity Kimmy engagement, as you alluded to, is a very robust division, a sort of one of the first of its kind in higher education. Toe have all of these things living under one umbrella and more importantly, to be a vice president portfolio, which means there was true money power and visibility being attributed to that space. And so, as you eloquently put you know, it is beyond just what are we doing around diversity when it comes to students representation but instead talking about institutional policies and creating a sense of belonging for all students and staff and faculty, which I think is the inclusion part and the equity part. Um, and I’ve been really blessed to be a part of the other part of the mandate of the division, which is commune engagement. And I really look at it as this. How do we make the University of Texas less of an ivory tower and more of a community anchor? What does it look like? Toe leverage? The resource is the research the fiscal, um, ability of a top tier research institution to address these larger issues of equity and access out in the community. Um, you know, our tagline is what starts here, changes the world. And speaking of someone in this role in as a native Austinite, you know, it’s sort of this idea of, Well, why don’t we start in our backyard, right? Um and I think connected to the great thought leadership that you, Stuart. We realize how important history is, right? This score context of Austin and how yout is sort of a microcosm of those larger political community themes. Um and so I think about 10 years ago, definitely through the direction of President powers at the time and continue through President Fen vis and our current vice president, Dr Leonard More. We’ve been really, um, equipped and encouraged to figure out ways that we can dismantle issues around systemic and equity. Um, whether that’s housing, affordability or health access or education equity, Um, and realizing that we have a lot of work to do because you t historically has been complicity in a lot of these larger conversations. And so this is really about building trust with the community. All people say we need to rebuild trust, and I argue, I’m not sure it was ever there. You know, um, we’ve been complicity in that divide of I 35 east to west, resourced under resourced. You know, we’ve been complicity in conversations and policies around, you know, land grabs and around contributing to gentrification. And so I’m really excited about what the work that we’re doing within the center of community engagement under the leadership of Dr Souci Garage, Um, and really identifying ways that we can take the research that’s being taking place on campus and leverage it in a way that it empowers the incredible work that’s already being done at the grassroots community level. And I really see our role is not just stewarding and facilitating those conversations, but identifying ways that we could be a part of the disruption of some of those systemic issues.

[0:05:30 Peniel] And I think that that’s great. That leads me, to my second question in terms of this notion of disruption because obviously you’re a black woman. Um, the LBJ School doesn’t have enough diversity. We don’t have enough, Uh, not just people of color graduating with specifically African American women and men graduating. Um, the University of Texas, as you’ve alluded to, has a really rough history, racial segregation that we’re gonna get deeper into when we talk about as we saw it. But what do you think of your role is specifically, and somebody who’s your your longhorn? Um, obviously you love Ah Austin and University of Texas in the state of Texas, but it’s a stay in a city in a university with a deep history of racial segregation in any inequality and not just history but contemporaneously. It’s happening right now as we’re speaking in terms of 2019. What do you think your role is having earned these degrees being put in this position? And I would tell our listeners, Not only is, ah, Virginia, somebody who works at U. T. When she’s a thought leader in and around the city of Austin and nationally as well. So what do you think your role is?

[0:06:43 Virginia] One that’s very kind categorization of like am and work. But, you know, it’s funny cause I even giggle when you say things like you’re a Longhorn. And if you had asked me growing up, that was like the farthest thing from my mind, you know, even being the product of a parent who went to UT Law School. But growing up, UT did not, um, signify necessarily a welcoming space for people that look like me. Um, and so that historical knowledge was very present in my adolescence. And so, um, I think it’s sort of, um, hilarious and amazing, all at the same time that I ended at UT for graduate school, and I think it was such a great opportunity for me to see again, sort of how you t has function at a very micro level of these larger conversations happening throughout the city and throughout the state of Texas and throughout the U. S. And I think the reasons why I chose to go to school for public policies, I realized as much as I consider myself a storyteller and as sort of a community advocate, you know, in terms of community organizing that policy and the way that we systemically set up infrastructure, um is paramount to dismantling the type of environment that we’ve created over time, whether that’s on campus or within Austin. And so I really see my role. Whether we’re talking about the hot I wear here at UT or just in my various, you know, um, sort of experiences throughout Austin, Um, is helping to one reframe the conversation. I think Austin for a really long time has gotten away with sort of focusing on this lovely, very convenient narrative of being, you know, super progressive and super liberal. And you know where the top 10 place to live the top greenest plays the best for tacos. Yeah, exactly. At some point, it was like we were top 10 of everything. Best toilet paper, you know, It was getting out of control. And that was largely people’s perception of us as a city where simultaneously and Justin of the surface was a more important reality and that lived reality was experienced, being experienced mostly by people of color. And that is we are the most economically segregated city in the country, right? Um, for a good portion of the mid two thousands over the fastest growing city in the country, that was simultaneously losing its bark population, which doesn’t make sense, right. Typically, if there’s growth and there’s jobs, then that’s where black people move to. And so for me, I think part of my role is helping to reframe the conversation That one is truthful and two allows us to confront the historical, um, impact of these policies and practices so that we can identify the strategies and solutions to making sure Austin is a place that everyone can thrive, not just the folks that happened to have amazing tech jobs, not just the people who happen to innate Lee identify with the culture of Austin.

[0:09:53 Peniel] And that leads me to a question about, um, one University of Texas in terms of helping to heal contemporary racial injustice. And we’re talking about that a bit. But you really, um um, significantly contributed to that. Ah, with this book as we saw it, The story of integration at the University of Texas, which was published last year and is about to go into its second printing. Um, I want you to discuss this this book, this anthology and the story it tells and, um, I want to start there, but I want to really drill down into what that means. And there’s a group called the Precursors who are some of the first African Americans on people of color to enroll at U. T. And obviously there’s human sweat in 1950. And you know, the first black law student. What? What is what is as we saw and what is Why is this so significant?

[0:10:48 Virginia] Sure. So do I. Guess provide a little bit of history about how even got to the place of a book. Um, so prior to me, even being at e. T. A huge credit goes to Leslie Blair, who’s my co editor, and people like Dr Bum FIS, um, and the precursors themselves who were really committed to keeping these stories alive until we found a way to truly, um, sort of create a safe place for them to, you know, live on. And when I entered the LBJ School is a graduate student. I was really fortunate to have a graduate assistant position within the division adversity, commune engagement and happened be within the communications Department because that was my background. And I got introduced to these incredible, um, individuals that we call the precursors, um, at one of our functions. And I was just so inspired by the idea that there was this group of alumni that were still so connected. And, um, Leslie kind of informed me that, you know, over the years we had tried to kind of document their stories, and we had an archive of a few, but no one really had the bandwidth do anything about it. And I was like, Well, that’s what graduate students or for right to create van with when it doesn’t exist. Um and so that became sort of the project that I took on. And, um, so basically, I just interviewed as many precursors as possible. Um And then what sort of create summary stories and posted on this website that we created And we realized that, um, these stories deserved, um, a more elevated space. And that was a book and what we realized for me, you know, this was 2014 2015 right? So this is right after Ferguson. This is right after the Mizzou sort of protest. This is right after the decision around Fisher versus U T. C. Of these heightened conversations taking place across the country around race in the interaction between the police force right race in higher education and affirmative action. Um, the idea of pull politicising black bodies within college athletics, all these conversations air circling around, and at the time as a student, I realized that it wasn’t just about recognizing and honoring these voices, that it contributed so much to you. T. Although that is a bulk of why we did the book. But also realizing that there was a place contemporary. Really, That’s not a word. But there was a place for these stories in current context for students to say, Oh my goodness, You know, when I navigate the spaces of beauty that have statues Commemorating Confederate soldiers when I live in dorms that have the name of someone who never wanted me present on this campus, I also have these stories of the precursors who created a space for me.

[0:13:41 Peniel] So they’re they’re a counter narrative,

[0:13:43 Virginia] exactly a counter narrative. And it’s also, um, in some ways, a blueprint for how we navigate these conversations today. Um, and we realized that it it was so timely and relevant to bring these stories finally to life.

[0:14:01 Peniel] When you think about these stories, now that, um, one of the things that the center for the study of race and democracy is going to do is ah, of course, that’s gonna use as we saw it and some other local, um, materials that looks at civil rights here. University of Texas and the story of sort of segregation toe at least a putative desegregation here at the University of Texas. Why do you think it’s so important for not only students of color but for white students, faculty, staff, citizens right here in Austin and state of Texas to really understand this story to know it. The story, really? To know it as well as we know, you know, the eyes of of Texas and as well as we know, Beav. Oh, and you know why is it so important?

[0:14:48 Virginia] Well, I think again, institutional memory is super important and powerful. The way that we memorize things on an individual level. But more importantly, is a collective, I think really had helped set the tone for how we navigate current conversations and current spaces. And so, you know, I think one of the examples that I love to share was sort of the process of research, which was so in dick demonstrative of how these group of students had been remembered and had been recognized When we first start doing sort of, um, our secondary research outside of, um, personal accounts and interviews, you know, I went to several libraries and archives expecting to get loads and loads of materials, right? I’m gonna be all day in this basement in this dungeon, just, you know, shuffling through boxes and pages. And, um, some of the first times that I went to a particular center, I was handed back a one inch manila folder that simply was labeled Negroes at UT. And it was the stark reminder that not Onley where we somewhere in the dust of, ah, you know, box in the bottom of the basement

[0:16:04 Peniel] grows a UTI.

[0:16:05 Virginia] But we hadn’t even been given the respect of names. Dates Ah, creative title for you know that folder. Um, So you opened up that folder and it was literally loosely papers and photos, no names, no dates. And we’re thinking, How could we be the first people to ask for these materials? How could be the first people to realize how important it is for this to be elevated to a point where this is a part of our institutional story? And I think that was indicative of what we’re what we’re doing today In terms of not taking accountability for the ways in which we have not created inclusive spaces. We have not created equity within the education system or equity within the ways that our political system ah, firm certain communities and marginalizes other communities. And so for us, the book became a tool for non only telling the story in the history of the institution. But in some ways challenging us to take Ah, hard look about where we were in our current context around diversity and inclusion I want

[0:17:15 Peniel] to drill down on as we saw and your understanding and knowledge of the University of Texas and athletics, because I think one of the things that those of us who are African American or black and we work in higher education, especially at these prestigious schools like the University of Texas. One of the stark ironies is the way in which black students, both men and women, play at Division one sports at some of the most historically segregated universities. But then now they become really engines of financial wealth and and resource production at places like the University of Texas University of Texas. Football is a great example. Was late to desegregation this year? We just one. Is that the cut? The Sugar Bowl just won the Sugar Bowl, Um, finished the year top 10 which is gonna be huge for fundraising, for Resource is, most of our players are black players, Um, yet at the same time, there’s a riel underside in dark history, historically, but even contemporaneously in terms of how do we view black student athletes, both women and men. And, um, I’d like you to talk about that some before getting to our final question. But what were what were college athletics like for the precursors? Yeah. What was school spirit like for the precursors?

[0:18:45 Virginia] Well, I think you know what was so interesting about the way this book developed, right? As we were looking for themes, we knew that we couldn’t tell a comprehensive story. We were also really committed and passionate about making sure that this didn’t bogged down too much and shoes of the ins and outs of policies and lawsuits because he really wanted to tell stories. And one of the stories that definitely rose the top was this intersection between race and athletics. And what I think is really interesting is watching sort of the timeline evolve within, um, University of Texas athletics and the value that we attributed to black bodies and black people. So when the University of Texas integrated its undergraduate students in 1956 which was four years after, I’m sorry. Five years after they had integrated the graduate school. Um, so in 96 they integrated the undergraduate students, but Basically what the university said was, You can come here and you can get an education. You can get a diploma, but you’re not gonna involve yourself in any other part of the experience of being a college student, right? So students weren’t allowed to live on campus. Students were allowed to eat except for one dining hall. Most of the what we call the drag, which is Guadalupe Street at the time, was segregated to movie theaters were off limits shopping, and the other part of sort of the social experience that was off limits was athletics. So most of the precursors of time. If they wanted to participate in athletics, it was through the fraternities. So there was a pretty robust Greek sort of, um uh, recreational leading intramural think used the term, and so they would compete against other HBC use or other. Um, you know, at the time PW eyes throughout the state of Texas in the south, in 1965 we get our first African American of student athlete who is afforded a scholarship. James means, um, track and field. A lot of people argue Track and field was the first to integrate because in some ways was an individual sport. Um, and so you didn’t have to really deal with the idea of, you know, traveling together and, you know, lodging together. Um, And then so we go from 65 to 68 where we finally integrate the basketball team, just the men’s basketball team. And, um, one of the things that we talk about in the book is realizing that, um, University of Texas realized the visibility of its athletics, um, as both perhaps a, um, a way of helping to socially deconstruct sort of the stigma around race, but in some ways also realized that it could be a detriment to the economic engine of the athletics. Which is why we argue that the, you know, football was the last frontier in terms of athletics. You know, football in Texas was king, Um, but at the end of the day, you know, the really the only reason that we integrated the football team is because we were getting our butts kicked by integrated schools, and so a lot of the precursors, there’s some great videos that we have of them talking about going to football games and going to track meets and rooting for whatever team had a black player on it, which meant rooting against the axis. So go to the check and they would wear whatever colors the opposing team was wearing. Um, just this last year we honored CR Roberts, who was one of the first Blacks football players at the University of Southern California, and he actually led a lawsuit against UT and USC because UT hadn’t integrated at the time. They were supposed to come down and play in the late fifties, and they said that he couldn’t travel with the team. Our he couldn’t play on the field on. And so he said, I’m not going to travel and we’re all gonna quit if you don’t figure out a way for us to play. Um, And so we actually honored CR Roberts at the black Texas excess event just this fall, realizing again sort of, that the gridiron became this very politicized space, Um, that it became sort of this way of saying, um, students of color, we’re going to create a space for themselves on this campus. And but, as we see use, sort of. The University of Texas arguably is that, um In some ways we used it because it was the only way to stay competitive. Um, you know, there’s lovely quotes from, um Ah, our lovely former football coach back in the sixties and seventies, saying he would never let a Negro play for him. OK, Darryl Coro? Yes. And we integrate in 1971 and ar Campbell saved us. Campbell was actually in the latter part of that integration period. But, you know, as we all know, became an incredible force on the field. You know, before that there was Roosevelt leaks who really ushered in sort of a really competitive football team. Um, and we have people like Bill Lyons who became instrumental in helping to recruit black students. He was one of the first black basketball players brought to you. um And then here we go fast forward to 2019 where the majority of our student athletes are African American. Um, and I think one of things that I appreciate so much about a lot of the work that the division diversity does is to make sure that we really are creating experience of being student athletes that are students of color that happened to come so that they could also be competitive. Athletes are leaving being fully, um, supported students so that they beyond their time on the field or court, um, they have a way of supporting themselves and contributing to our community. And unfortunately, that’s not the case around the country. And that’s not the case. Historically, that we’ve kind of used people up physically, emotionally, psychologically. And when they’re no longer good to us, um, you know, they lose their scholarship or they don’t graduate with a degree. Um and so, um sports, I think we could all argue. One of the things I really appreciate about the platform of the undefeated is that sports has really been a politicized space, particularly for communities of color. Um, and I think we’ve seen that exercise the last few years, particularly around conversations like Black Lives matter and Kathryn and Colin Kaepernick and LeBron James.

[0:25:16 Peniel] Um, okay, final question. This has been great. Um, I want to talk about the city of Austin and the de de ce and the work that you’re doing as we saw it. And what can the city do? Because, um, obviously there’s been conversations. The Mayor the City Council about gentrification, about equality. There’s a mayor’s task force for ending institutional racism. Um, that some of us here ut were part of, um, what can we do? Moving forward both policy wise politically as a community to really ensure racial, racial and economic justice? Especially 2019 is the 4/100 anniversary of Jamestown, Virginia, and 19 enslaved Africans coming to Colonial Virginia. What would become the United States of America? This is the 90th birthday or would have been 1/90 birthday of Dr Martin Luther King Jr What can we do? Um Teoh to bring us closer to that that idea of racial and economic justice.

[0:26:24 Virginia] I think Austin is a really interesting city. And I think for me, um, a lot of the work has to be around us being willing to confront our own complicity nous and our own um ah, bias. That leave allowed sort of this lovely facade of progressivism and liberalism, um, overshadow the work that needs to be done, Um, and realizing that that’s just the way that we vote right. That’s not actually the way in which policies are being carried out or practices are being created. And so I think the first thing is that at an institutional level, at a leadership level, we need to be really honest with ourselves about the ways in which we’ve created environments that, um support and in some ways and power continued inequity. Um, so I think that’s the first thing. The second thing, um, is that we have to be willing to be creative and bold. You know, we talk a lot about how innovative Austin is and how creative we are. But that’s mostly siloed around this tech conversation. And a lot of that tech conversation has been imported. Um, and so I think, to truly be innovative and creative city, right. We shouldn’t be one of the largest populations of people experiencing homelessness, right? We shouldn’t be a city that is pushing majority of its community of color outside the city limits because they can’t afford to live here. Um, and so some of the disruptive practices have to come with people being willing to set aside, um, positions of privilege and power and order to create opportunity for equitable practices. And I think we’re seeing that happen just really, really slowly. Um, and So I think the biggest things that we’re facing as a city around affordability on that’s a conversation about housing practices. But it’s also a conversation about Workforce. Um, and who’s getting opportunity? You know, some of the latest statistics are, you know, we’re bringing in all these really amazing spaces of industry, and we’re saying it’s gonna bring in 40,000 jobs but are bringing in 40,000 jobs. But it also means probably that they’re bringing in 40,000 people who didn’t live here five minutes ago to take those jobs. And it’s like we have incredible talent right here That’s being, you know, cultivated and made, you know, right in Central Texas. What are we doing to make sure that those folks are being a part of those conversations? And likewise, you know, we’re doing a lot of work around housing and affordability. What we’re realizing that is that it’s not so much whether or not affordable housing is being created. It’s also about is it appropriate housing to capture the market that, um, otherwise wouldn’t have a place to be, Um And so, um, I think we really need collaborative, um, investment around some of these conversations cause I think Austin is really good starting conversations and starting efforts. And then you turn around. Also, we’ve got 20 people working on the same bank but not working together. Um, and that’s I think that collaborative nature is when we make comprehensive impact.

[0:29:42 Peniel] All right, great. That will be the final word. Thank you so much. Virginia Cumberbatch. Who’s the director of

[0:29:49 Virginia] Henri Levy Equity and Advocacy?

[0:29:52 Peniel] Yeah, Director Community Equity and Advocacy used to be director of Community Engagement Community Engagement Center. But the title shift is people grow and get, get, get their impact becomes even larger. It’s been great having this conversation with you, and we hope to talk to you again soon.

[0:30:10 Virginia] Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for this space that you’ve created.

[0:30:14 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.