Ep. 67 – Photography from the Civil Rights Era with William Abranowicz

[0:00:00 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. We’re pleased to welcome William Abramowitz to race and democracy. William Abramowitz is a photographer whose work has been acquired by the National Portrait Galleries of the United States in the United Kingdom, the Getty and the Metropolitan Museum of Art, among other collections. Ah, longstanding contributing photographer to Conde Nast Traveler. He is the author of five books, including American originals, Creative Interiors. And today we’re gonna be talking about this this wonderful book this far and no further photographs inspired by the voting rights movement. Uh, great to meet you.

[0:00:52 William] Likewise. Thanks for having me.

[0:00:55 Peniel] Um, this is a fascinating book in three parts. Um uh, on. You know, there’s a great forward by Nicole Hannah Jones, of course. Who is the Pulitzer Prize winner for the 16 19 project, And you write a very moving preface is Well, um, I want to start by asking you, uh, what inspired this project? Because we’re obviously it’s 2021 is we’re speaking. And this country is talking about race and racial justice. I think more now than it ever has been because of obvious historical events insurrection against the U. S. Capitol. But the civil rights period looms large. And all of this, as does the first reconstruction. And this this book Really, um, it’s a tour de force in the sense that it takes us back and forth in time and very powerful ways in the three parts. So what? What was your inspiration for this project?

[0:01:52 William] Uh, the my inspiration was was, you know, it came from several, several places. I mean, I e made a trip to Selma. I was there on a new assignment in Lounge County. And, you know, I’d always I’m 64. I grew up with many of the events of the, um, you know, the civil rights movement of the sixties and seventies. My father was quite the racist, So I was aware of, um, you know, the civil rights movement along a couple of different fronts. Um, but I was educated by, you know, I went to a Catholic all boys high school. It was deeply, uh, the ideas of social justice and Dorothy Day. They were deeply embedded in the education that I got. And so, as I became a photographer. I always had an awareness of the social capabilities that photography had. I mean, I photographed pretty buildings and houses and beautiful locations for a wide array of magazines. But, you know, my personal work always had something to do with the social, a social movement. I did a lot of work with the environmental movement over the last 10 years. I was on the board of Riverkeeper, so I’ve always had that consciousness and the awareness. Two years after Barack Obama walked over the Edmund Pettus Bridge when he was president to celebrate the 50th anniversary. Two years after that, um, I found myself on that same bridge. Uh, it was shortly after Donald Trump had been inaugurated. It was March of 2017, and Kris Kobach was undertaking, Ah, voter fraud, uh, commission. And they were desperately trying to find all of these, um, holes and voter four occurrences. And and and so I just I became outraged in my ignorance, you know, And it really was ignorance because I didn’t have any awareness whatsoever or a minimal awareness of what actually happened during the civil rights movement. You know, um, and standing on the bridge standing where John Lewis was beaten. You know, walking across the Interstate 80 and just trying to experience to the photographs that I know, Um, that, uh, you know, it just moved me and I decided I wanted to do something. And I’m a photographer. It’s what I know best. I’ve done it for a long time, and I try to use it as a vehicle for a voice. And because most of the people that I know don’t know beans about, you know, I delved into it and I learned slowly. But most of the people that I know don’t know beans and wanted

[0:04:43 Peniel] William. Let’s start, um, breaking this book down, I’m gonna have a conversation about the photos you used The organization of the book on Part one is mortal sin on. Did you take us through Alabama, Mississippi? Other parts of the South on you really show some historical photos that at times looked quite ordinary at times were quite extraordinary. Um, I want to discuss what was your process in photographing on choosing these photos? The order of the part one. The mortal sin. Sometimes there’s historical artifacts like the literacy tests, which It was extraordinary just to see, and I’ve seen these literacy tests as well before, but I think it’s interesting in terms of mortal sin. One. What are you thinking of is the mortal sin. And what was your process in? There’s some poems here by Lucille Clifton and others. What was your process and choosing these photos? Well,

[0:05:49 William] the book was in photographed in the same, uh, you know, sequence that I didn’t photograph in the same sequence that it’s laid out in the book. The the shifting around of the photographs happened afterwards. Three idea of mortal sin. You know, originally I the idea of mortal sin comes from my my Catholic upbringing, you know? And, um, it seemed that the Lucille Clifton poem on slave ships, you know, how can we how Thio had had a ships with names like Jesus, an angel of God, God vomit men. It just it it was it was plain sin. To me, it was sinful. I mean, people were killed, people were abused. Um, and so the idea of original sin, um, I wanted to be careful about it. I wanted to make it a little more personal in and related to what I knew. I’m not a historian, you know, I’m a photographer. Um, and even in in in my past work with an environmental movement, I learned about it as I went. So I started with very basic, um, travel guides for the civil rights movement and started in because I was in Selma. I started with a wonderful book on the Alabama Civil rights trail. And then I moved, uh, and then I started to encompass some of the other states that were affected by the Voting Rights Act and federal oversight. So I just I followed. I started with simple guide books, and then I expanded it into reading history. I read a lot of James Baldwin. I wanted to understand how it could be, You know? I mean, how is this possible? But I’m white, you know, And Benjamin Salisbury, who is Ah, museum director at the end. It till project in in some of the Mississippi. When I expressed all this outrage to him and said it was simply un American, that’s why I started this. He sort of very quickly told me that to him, it seemed very American. It was very much American. He’s a black kid. Grew up in Tallahatchie in, uh, Tallahatchie County in Mississippi. And that kind of flipped me on my on my behind.

[0:08:09 Peniel] And let’s talk about that in terms of Mississippi, you have some great photos, um, connected to the murder and the lynching of Emmett Till in 1955 including the Tallahatchie Courthouse. But one of the things that struck me was the bullet riddled, Um, the bullet riddled sign off. Uh, Commemorating till, um, so talk to me about that in terms of because now I know a bulletproof sign has been put in place.

[0:08:44 William] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And I just found out that this sign is going to actually be touring is part of an exhibition. Um, that the center, the until center has put together. I know it’s going to travel to Birmingham, Alabama, and hopefully the other places. Um, but the this sign I remember reading about when when this happened. I remember reading about it initially because it’s happened a few times initially in The New York Times. And then the second time I read about it, which was after I photographed there was a and I guess It was an instagram post in 2019 that included a photograph of three members of the University of Mississippi. Ah, fraternity there. And they posed with guns in front of one of the signs. Um, you know, I mean, you can’t help but be outraged when you understand this. Emmett Till is a symbol you know, is one thing, but this is a 14 year old child, you know, and, uh, uh, it just I couldn’t comprehend it. I still can’t comprehend it. Although I know it’s the reality. I know, You know, I know it’s fact we can see it and, you know, till till story, while not directly related to voting rights. Um, certainly part of, ah history of intimidation that just worked to deny citizens full citizenship. And and so the till story is particularly poignant because it’s a story that most people know, and it’s for me. It was one of a good place to start. Most of us know that story, and but the repercussions of it and it is it is still as, uh, tangible and, you know, and tactile today as it was, perhaps in 19, you know, in the late 19 fifties when it happened

[0:10:35 Peniel] and you start with. There’s a great photo from Charleston, South Carolina, um, of this portrait of the slave ship that’s displayed in Charleston’s Liberty Square. Uh, and 40% of African people brought to the United States under slavery passed through the city of Charleston. And in 2018, the city formally apologized. But we see this partial manifest of Children, boys and girls, none older than 10. Some is young as, um, three or four. Um, I guess the oldest is 11 and their heights. I thought this was really extraordinary. Photo. This isn’t a photo that I recall seeing. And I’ve seen so many, um, discussed the when you think about part one in that mortal sin, Um, the connection between racial slavery and what we see during the civil rights period in terms of there’s so many different landmarks here. Um, not only that picture, but you look at the Alabama River on the fact that there were so many enslaved people transported as human cargo through major ports on droughts such as the Alabama River on steamboats in the 19th century. Um, so discuss that there’s the irrigation ditch in Lawrence County. I’ve been toe lounge. I’ve been to Haynesville. I’ve been to a lot of the sites that you actually have here. I’ve been to doing research, but slavery is such a huge part of this, right up until right now Until 2021. Um, what are some of the artifacts that you, you foe Toad, Um, in part one that’s connected to that? That original sin of of, of racial slavery?

[0:12:22 William] Well, certainly certainly the the slave ship photograph, which is at Liberty Square in Charleston. Um, uh, which is? I usually visited these places because I had learned about the history of them and you know. So I went to the port where the slave ships that come in It’s a very beautifully, wonderfully developed, uh, you know, Urban Park. There’s an aquarium there. There is a park honoring Septima Clark there. And there’s this simple little stand with this one photograph on it. Um, that’s outside. And, you know, just in looking at the photograph I mean, you see, Children, I have I have three kids. You know, I have many nephews and I mean the mortal. And how much mortal of a sin can we be guilty of, then. You know this slavery that involved Children? Um, it doesn’t get any. It doesn’t get any more poignant to me, you know, than the idea of Children separated many times, separated from their parents, sold off as stock theme. The you know, organizations like the Equal Justice Initiative in Montgomery have put up historical markers that looked just like the You know, uh, state issued historical markers. But, you know, in psychotherapy, a lot of times psychotherapist will have you sort of turn which my psychotherapist who said turn the lens and look at it from a different side and the E J i historical monuments in places like, uh, on the Alabama River in Montgomery, you know, tell you what happened here. You know, the the it’s in. My friend says it’s in the wallpaper. The history is in the wallpaper. The history is in the water. The history is in the earth and particularly in the South, you know? I mean, I don’t know what it is about the South. I don’t know if it’s the the heat, the humidity, the knowledge of history. There’s certainly been a lot of blood spilled, but there is something that you know. I don’t know. Maybe it’s e don’t know. I just react to it. And I know a lot of people do. I know a lot of photographers have and

[0:14:49 Peniel] certainly you mentioned Dannie Lynn and others because I want to move us forward to part to redemption. When we look at this thes Siris of photos, uh, it gets a little bit more more hopeful. And obviously, part three is gonna be revival. Um, some things that stood out the photos of John’s Island, South Carolina, um, and and, you know, the kind of racial segregation. But people who were pushing, um, to try to transform that situation. Dorchester Academy, which was founded in 18 70 by activist Formerly enslaved men and women for free citizens. Um, it becomes a school, but then, Septima Clark, it serves as a headquarters for the Citizens Education Program and a staging ground for key civil rights, including 63 Birmingham campaign. Um, Little Rock Central High School on obviously, the pictures of 1500. Uh, you know, white, you know. Great. Yeah. Great. Screaming eyes is very, very indelible. The farm on Belzoni I’ve been to Mississippi. Been to the delta, and it zits certainly beautiful. Um, but the plans to ensure that black people would be kicked out of the Delta thought that was extraordinary. You’ve got kings, Dexter Avenue Baptist Church here. The bend more hotel. Um, there’s so much here, So much history. Um,

[0:16:33 William] so much That’s not you know so much. That’s not I mean, I did this for two years. I kind of had a deadline for myself. I wanted Thio Thio. I wanted to have this book done. You know, around the time of the recent election that the presidential election we had I could have content and I could continue for decades on this because the history is it za long history. It’s a dark history. Um, but the the idea of redemption came. You know it. There’s there’s a dichotomy that runs. I try to pay attention to two sides of a coin a little bit. You know, the idea of the title this far and no further, you know, comes from the comes from the James Baldwin quote about people being pushed so far that they screamed this far and no further. And at the same time, you know, I’m I’m seeing in contemporary politics, you know, White America pushing back and saying the same thing this far and no further. Three idea of redemption. What was you know, it’s it’s a historical term. Um uh, but I wanted it, you know, it’s also a religious term, and again, it’s I reached back to and I’m not. I’m not a devout Catholic. I’ve been I haven’t been to church in many, many years, but you know it. I have a set of morals that are based on that and the idea of redemption that people actually took one step at a time to work through this and and, you know, during this period of redemption, as I was thinking about it, one of the things I discovered and I know you’ve talked recently about Jean Pierre Harris. You know, in her book, she a more beautiful and terrible history. She talks about the students, the women, you know, we know the same names. I learned the same 10 names for civil rights history, you know, in civil rights history. But my God, the roster that goes you know, that is unmentioned is enormous, you know, And and now what we see with, you know, this past summer’s events, you know it continues the idea of redemption. You know it

[0:18:42 Peniel] and at redemption that it’s interesting that you call part to redemption because there’s obviously the there’s. There’s two ways of looking at that. There’s the Redeemer South, the white supremacist south after reconstruction or really during reconstruction, where you see the rise of the clan and the poll taxes and the black codes and really racial terror and violence and Jim Crow segregation. But then there’s this idea that Dr Martin Luther King Jr. In the SCLC to redeem the soul of America and center racial justice and anti racism. So it’s very powerful. Now you have these portrait’s of these pictures of Lawrence County, and if somebody who works on black power and I’ve visited Laos County, I have visited Haynesville. I visited these spots myself personally, so I know how powerful they are. Um uh, talk to us about basically the living history. How did it feel to be in spaces like clowns and spaces like Mississippi? Because, obviously, like Faulkner says, the past, you know it’s not even past the past is prologue. We’re living through this. How does that How did it feel? Especially you say, William, in your preface that, you know, there was a point where you felt ashamed that you hadn’t been as outrage before as a younger person about this. So you’ve had your epiphany. How does it feel as you’ve gotten mawr and you’re an artist? Your photographer? How did it feel to take these photos now? Especially especially now with how you’re feeling.

[0:20:12 William] I felt you know, Mike my I have, ah, a couple of kids in their twenties who are very aware of the cancel culture. And, um, they I was concerned. I felt I had a responsibility toe. All of the people who, actually, you know, and a responsibility and sensitivity toe all of the people who had who had endured whatever they had endured, you know, the people that had been murdered, uh, there was a responsibility to them. Um, but what I wanted, you know, it was important, Uh, you because, you know, when you stand at the murder site, it is a it silences May you know, it’s silence me. And the silence in May is is a good sign. Um, that, you know, there’s deep emotional. There was deep emotional content for me to deal with Andi. And so, you know, I wound up seeing all of these places from the, you know, comfort of, ah, car with air conditioning and, you know, a map. And, you know, Mississippi Blues as I drove through the Delta. But, you know, driving on the roads at night and thinking about night writers and the, you know, and and visits, um, that were made to intimidate people over voter registration drives. Or, you know, even the insinuation of participation in the civil rights and voting rights movement. Um, could bring a deadly a deadly response, you know, And just like when I stood on the Pettus Bridge, as I had said earlier, there there was there was a There’s a charge, you know. And there there are certain places, like around money, money, Mississippi and Tallahatchie and all through that area of Mississippi that it was just rich because, you know, it was the darkest place it was described continuously through. History is the darkest place during the civil rights movement. Clark County, Mississippi, where she, Buddha Bridges, um, which is called the Hanging Bridge. You know, it was so it was so violent that, you know, most civil rights and and voter registration activities didn’t even happen there because of the fear of violence was so palpable. And, you know, I I had I had fear in some of these places. I felt fear standing underneath the ship Buddha Bridge. You know, I I had I had probably very little to fear.

[0:22:50 Peniel] And so let’s talk about the final part revival, and you’ve got great pictures of people like Sherrilyn Ifill, who I know, and Bryan Stevenson and and sort of this effort, um, at voting rights and desegregation, Really? Anti poverty efforts, Um, in the Deep South on do really I think this part of the book is very hopeful and shows us that these struggles really continue right in our own time with the Equal Justice Initiative and the Legacy Museum and the National Memorial for Peace and Justice. Um,

[0:23:29 William] on the poor people’s campaign, you know?

[0:23:31 Peniel] Yeah. Yeah, and Theo Harris as well. So when you look at these pictures during the third part of this the final part what are you What are you trying to convey to the readers? What are you hoping they get in terms of the the overall

[0:23:52 William] impact? Yeah, the idea. The idea that voting rights isn’t just about, you know, if we if we address access to the ballot we most likely will be addressing. You know, democracy for us is supposed to be the best way Thio take care of something to fix something. And more people that vote, the more the democracy works. The elimination of poverty, I think, is the basis, you know, that’s the thing I found to be across the board most. The most powerful thing that could happen as part of a revival. You know, the work of the new poor people’s campaign. You know, somebody like Kimberly Merchant in Greenville, Mississippi, whom I actually just simply sat next to on a flight and started a conversation with, as I was heading to Jackson, Mississippi. And it turned out, you know, here’s this woman that’s worked for the Strieber Center on Poverty Law in the Delta, you know, and and now is working in public schools and is an election commissioner in Granville, Mississippi. So So there’s this this element of hope, but and in leaving, you know, in closing this book. I wanted to do that. I want It’s a treacherous It’s a treacherous time. Um, but I wanted to. I it was it was part of conveying my education. This is what I learned. It was pretty interesting. You know, I hope you find it interesting. I hope it changes the way that you think, because it’s a pretty simple thing to understand when it comes down to it. You know, it’s a pretty simple thing to understand

[0:25:32 Peniel] eso. My, my final question, William, is So what do you Obviously I think this is a terrific book and I want everybody to run out and get it this far no further. But what are you hoping for in terms of the impact of this book? And are you after going through your own journey? Um, in terms of understanding or getting to understand the legacies of the civil rights movement, these racial justice movements, these anti racist movements from from slavery really to the to the president in the south and nationally, um, you know, how has that changed you and what are you hoping the books impact will be on our larger society and our larger culture.

[0:26:11 William] Um, I it’s changed me in terms. You know, I have learned that history can teach us everything you know. And if we can break the cycle of certain histories, uh, where they’ll be successes, particularly in this In this front, I This book isn’t for people who it’s there, it’s It’s a book targeting people like me. You know me in 2017, when all I knew was a little, and when you learn a little bit more, you start to understand. All it takes is people to get this thing moving, you know, and that’s an easy thing for me to say. There’s lots of organizer’s who would show you how difficult that is. But look at these wonderful organizations and and, you know, people that are that are doing all these things. There’s a lot to learn, and white people like me. I’m in my sixties. People in their fifties, the seventies, the thirties, the twenties. We have to learn this history because then we will understand where all of the outrage comes from and how deep it goes.

[0:27:34 Peniel] I think that’s a great way Thio end it. I think I think everyone should read this, but certainly I think White, White, our white fellow citizens should find out about this this deeper history. That’s really beautifully done here in this brand new book this far and no further photographs inspired by the voting rights movement. We’ve been talking to William Abramowitz, who’s the photographer whose work has been acquired by the National Portrait Galleries of the United States and United Kingdom, the Getty, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, among other collections. A longstanding contributing photographer to Conde Nast Traveler, he’s the author of five books, including American originals, Creative Interiors and this brand new book This Far and no further photographs inspired by the voting rights movement University of Texas Press. It’s a great book. It’s a coffee table book, but that has great information and beautiful photographs in there, and really helps us understand the current crisis of race and democracy in the United States. So I think this is an important achievement. Um, and congratulations. And thank you for joining

[0:28:43 William] us. Thank you very much. You articulate what I was trying to do beautifully. Much better than I can sometimes. So? So thank you. Oh,

[0:28:50 Peniel] no, no. You’re You’re perfectly articulates. Great. conversation.

[0:28:54 William] Great. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye.

[0:28:56 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.