Ep. 63 – Black Spartacus: The True Story of the Haitian Revolt with Sudhir Hazareesingh

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to Race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, Social justice and citizenship. Mhm. Okay, today we are joined by Dr Sadeer Hazari Singh, who is a fellow of the british academy and has been a fellow and tutor in politics at Balliol College Oxford since 1990. He’s a very, very prolific historian who’s got a wonderful new book, Black Spartacus the epic life of to san lu virtue that has just come out. It’s a brilliant book and we’re so excited to have you here on race and democracy. Welcome to Dear,

[0:00:49 Sudir] thank you for having me pina. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

[0:00:54 Peniel] You know, I read this book and I’ve read a lot on the Haitian revolution and I don’t feel I’ve ever read such a great book about Tucson um and placing the revolution uh in the wider context of the atlantic world, the uniqueness of of Haiti to ideas of citizenship and dignity and liberty all around the world. I want to start at the beginning. Why did you write this book? You’ve written about napoleon? Um obviously you’re you’re a historian of this period, but why did you write the book, Black Spartacus?

[0:01:30 Sudir] Well, thank you for your kind words about the book. Um they mean a lot to me, I have worked a lot as you as you mentioned on various aspects of french history. And I suppose I’ve always been interested in two things. One is um great leaders or important leaders and I’ve written books about napoleon, from napoleon all the way through to Charles de Gaulle, and I’m interested in leadership and how leadership emerges, particularly in moments of crisis and moments of political change. Secondly, I’ve always been interested in the history of what the french call the republican tradition, which is basically the way of thinking the pattern of thinking that emerges, I suppose, in the late enlightenment and then uh is given a new lease of life is through the french revolution. And so finding out how that republican tradition has developed in France has been one of my main areas of research and and what I had never done is to actually transfer transpose or transport those two interests to the french, colonial and imperial settings. Um, and Tucson Roberto, about whom I had heard a little mainly through having read CLR James is wonderful book about him a long time ago to sail over to just seemed to me to be the obvious person who would allow me to do both of those things. To continue with my interest in great heroic figures, but also at the same time to explore in a rather different way what happens to republicanism as a, as a system of ideas once it migrates into this uh imperial and colonial setting

[0:03:24 Peniel] and talk to us about Tucson um to san love it because he’s uh this Haitian revolutionary. But in Black Spartacus you really place him alongside of these these global figures, you know, thomas, jefferson um napoleon, I think two cents still hasn’t received his do but black Spartacus and there’s certainly a new interest. And by the end of the book you show there’s always been permanent interest in Tucson. But I think you really show him is not just this revolutionary warrior, but as this really intellectual, this thought leader uh this this figure who is interested in different kinds of political

[0:04:03 Sudir] uh and and

[0:04:04 Peniel] juridical um reforms uh in Haiti. Um so let’s talk about him and his background, There’s not that much known about the early to center, but let’s talk about who is he and how does he become really? This, this, this not just military genius, but this political genius as well.

[0:04:26 Sudir] Yes, it’s a very interesting story because of course we know a lot about really the last decade of his life from 17 91 onwards um, when he becomes this revolutionary leader. But uh, but we know very little, in fact, about the 1st 50 years of his life about which there are only a handful of documents literally in the archives. We know that he was born sometime probably in the early 17 forties, Even that we don’t have the exact date. We know that he was born on one of the plantations in the north of santa monk called the bread, a plantation which was mainly a sugar plantation. Um, santa man being of course France’s richest colony at the time, producing vast quantities of sugar, among other things. To see, his parents were enslaved and forcibly transported across the atlantic from the kingdom of the Lada, which in today’s terms is mainly falls in the Republic of Benin and to suspend the 1st 50 years of his life on this plantation. Um he’s physically frail. We know that because one of the nicknames that he was given when he was a kid was skinny stick Matobato. So he’s a frail, frail little thing. But despite being physically frail, um, he had enormous intellectual talents which were remarked almost immediately by those around him and one of the characteristics of tussle over to even in these early years when he’s growing up as the son of an enslaved, of an enslaved, her father and mother is his capacity to absorb knowledge and information from a wide variety of sources. So he picks up a lot of stuff from his father who had been a senior official in the a lotta kingdom. So he picks up a lot of religious ideas, scientific ideas, even I suspect ideas about military tradition because the lada people were quite a war like people. Um, but he also picks up a lot from uh, mid to late 18th century santa man. He’s a devout catholic. He’s someone who picks up things from the resistance ideologies of runaway slaves. And of course, there’s the voodoo religion which is beginning to emerge and with which to sir establishes quite interesting and and powerful connections. So, um, alongside perhaps the slightly better known influences that shaped him, which are the influences of the radical enlightenment. Um, the ideas of did heroin Raynal, um uh, which uh, for example, CLR James talks a lot about. I think one of the interesting things I try and do in my earlier chapter is to stress the variety of intellectual and cultural influences that shaped Yusa. He’s someone who’s literally blending together in his mind um uh europe, the caribbean and africa and that’s what makes him from the get go. I think someone who is so exciting and so and who has so much potential,

[0:07:47 Peniel] you know, you say in chapter one this is a quote from Tucson, I was born a slave, but nature gave me the soul of a free man. I think one of the things that black spartacus does so well is placed to say really almost as this kind of environmental revolutionary as well. Um there’s such a huge ecological component, he’s sort of one of the world’s greatest horseman. Um and in a way he sort of has reading your book, he sort of has a mental map of the entire island of Santo,

[0:08:19 Sudir] which

[0:08:21 Peniel] is, I mean it’s nothing short of extraordinary. And so let’s talk about Toussaint as a, as a person, the skills that he had. Uh, you know, how, how he’s able to, he’s really in love

[0:08:33 Sudir] with Haiti and it’s

[0:08:34 Peniel] not just the Breda plantation. Um, he’s able to sort of map out the topography of the entire island, including um, uh, spanish send roaming when we think about what he does over there. So north, south, east west from Jacques mel to Port au Prince to, you know, like i it’s, it’s remarkable. So let’s talk about to say and this idea of nature giving him the soul of a free man.

[0:09:01 Sudir] Yes, thank you because I think it’s, it’s one of the absolutely pivotal uh, underpinnings of who he was as who he was, I would say almost spiritually because he has this close list closeness to nature, which we think probably starts to develop in him um When he, as a young boy, he was what was called the Guardian Tibet, basically a shepherd. Um So he, he tended to um the uh plantation animals um and indeed tended to them also in the sense of ministering to them when they were unwell because one of the skills that his father taught him and this was really a skill that came all the way from the kingdom of a lada was the science of medicinal herbs. So to say as someone who from a very young age can distinguish particular herbs that can be used to cure various ailments. So one of the other nicknames that he has is Doctor, if you know someone who literally is a is a is a herb doctor as a um And and and so his interests in nature are partly scientific in that sense, but partly spiritual because he has he also develops this great capacity to travel around. Um uh and and and he does that because he’s a he’s the most accomplished horseman, I think um of his, of his entourage. Uh we know from letters that I’ve looked at that people used to come from all over the north of santa man to consult him when they wanted to purchase a horse. Right? So he had this kind of expertise about animals. And of course he uses this skill just to go roaming around. And I think uh he travels extensively criss crosses the whole of the territory. Um And I think long before the revolution starts in 17 91 this mental map of the, of the territory is one that has been imprinted in his head. Um uh and uh I remember reading a letter that he writes quite late in the day. This is after um as a, as a general, as a french republican general, he has basically captured and conquered the spanish side of the, of the territory. Uh One of the things he finds is that the Spaniards have over exploited some of the, some of the trees and he says, I I remember that in particular parts of santo Domingo, there were far more trees of of such and such a kind that I think mahogany was was the one that he was particularly incensed about the over exploitation. But but you know, this was just remembering, I mean, he could remember where particular uh um uh you know, mahogany trees were located, which I think is quite extraordinary. And I think another source of this closeness to nature. Um and this goes to underline his the diversity of influences that shaped him and Haitian anthropologists have been doing a lot of interesting work in this in this area in recent decades. Another source is his um connection, I would say with what is left of the culture spirituality of the american uh indigenous native american indigenous people of Hispaniola latino people who were very close to nature and and some of whom spiritual ideas uh, still survive notably through through some of the voodoo ceremonies. So to size um, connecting with nature in all these different ways and this closeness to nature remains a, an integral part of his personality throughout the rest of his life.

[0:13:14 Peniel] How does he get his last name?

[0:13:17 Sudir] Well, that’s a lovely story because of course, uh enslaved people did not have surnames. So for the 1st 50 years of his life, he is simply called to say Breda by there being the name of the plantation. And you can see in the early years of the revolution, how his identity shifts. Uh, I found some documents dated from the late 17 91 early 17 92 where you still see him being referred to as Tusa? S club del ponte de la Plata’s Breda. So to somebody is still how he’s, he’s being called and how he’s calling himself then as the insurrection gains more power authority. And when to see himself becomes uh, one of the, one of the emerging leaders of the insurrection. Uh, one of the, one of the early leaders of the insurrection, a man called Giosue, some of whose correspondence has survived, starts to call to say monsieur Tusa. And then in 17 93 went to see a really, uh, uh, comes into his own as it were, as a leader in august 17 93. Uh, his first proclamation in which he signs the name, tussle over to appears. Um and lover tour is very typical of Tusa because it’s both at the same time, a nod to the enlightenment, to the idea of virtue, as in um emancipation opening, freeing the spirit, opening oneself up to uh, to enlightenment. Um, but at the same time, it’s a nod to uh, to the voodoo religion where one of the spirits is known as papa legba. And here’s the spirit that allows you to be guided through the crossroads. He’s the person who takes you from one part of your life through, through to the next. So this is very characteristic of Tucson because he very often in his speeches would say things that could just as easily be interpreted and received by a european audience as by an african born audience. And, and, and one should remember that, you know, around 60% of the former enslaved people of santa Monica in the late 18th century were born in africa.

[0:15:51 Peniel] Mhm. I’d love for us to have a conversation about the actual twists and turns of the revolution, you know, the the insurrection that becomes this revolution. Uh and really, as you say at the start of the book, it’s really a 15 year journey from the french revolution in 17 89 to Haiti as this independent black republic in 18 oh four and two, since starting in 17 91 being such an integral part. But there are so many different actors here at times. It’s dizzying. Um your book reads very cinematically, but I also thought it needs to cast of characters in the sense of, you know, you’ve got the french, you’ve got the british and the spanish, but then within Haiti uh you have um, the color words, uh, you know, the folks who are, who are mixed and there’s all these different intrigues that are happening. Um, tell us what, you know, what is to send doing in the first three years from 17 91 to 17 90 for

[0:17:00 Sudir] that then changes,

[0:17:01 Peniel] you know, where, you know, obviously he’s going to become the governor general of the island, he’s going to become governor general for life. He’s going to create a constitution and, and I’ll start there and then I’ll, I have a, I have a second part what’s going, what’s going on? You know, like, like give us a sense, especially at the early to send those first three years how he’s becoming this, this, this grand general and this grand architect.

[0:17:32 Sudir] Well, um, you’re right panel that he faces multiple challenges in those early years and I think one can summarize them pretty much along the lines that you, you have mentioned. Um, the french have had a revolution uh, in 17 89 but it’s a revolution that’s been stolen by the white planters. And so in santa Monica, it’s probably better to characteristics the early the first two years, 17 89 17 90 17 91 actually as years of counter revolution because the white planters refused to apply any of the great revolutionary principles. Not to mention the declaration of the rights of man to be enslaved population of santa Monica. They don’t even want to extend any civil or political rights to the mixed race population, which is just as numerous as, as the white plant as the white settlers. You know, they’re about 30 35,000 white settlers, 30 35,000 people of mixed race who have no rights. I mean, some of them are very wealthy. Uh, and, and, and one thing that people often forget is that around a quarter of the enslaved men and women of Saddam man who were actually enslaved by mixed race people. Right? So, so the mixed race community is actually part of the system of slavery.

[0:19:05 Peniel] How many enslaved Africans were in san demand at this time?

[0:19:10 Sudir] And that’s the crucial figure of 500,000. Right? So that allows you to see how and why this explosion takes place and why, I think, uh, it’s successful because they have numbers on their side, unlike in many other parts of the caribbean at that time, where there are, you know, strong, um, insurrectionary movements, but they don’t have that degree of numerical superiority, but so, uh, is having to deal with the french, were refusing to move at all on the question of reforming or abolition abolishing slavery. Um, in 79 when the french finally realized that the goose is cooked unless they make some gesture towards the black people of santa mine. So in 17 93 the french representatives in santa manc rather reluctantly agreed to abolish slavery. Um, that then prompt the white planters to turn to the british were based in, in, in neighboring Jamaica. And basically what, what then starts is a british intervention, which lasts for five years. And the british spent, you know, £10 million send in 20,000 men. They end up occupying parts of Western and southern santa meringue and two fights them and eventually kicks them out of the island. But before that, he’s also had to take on the Spaniards. The dastardly Spaniards who have come in from the eastern part of the island and who are also trying to capitalize on the chaos that is produced by the 17 91 slave insurrection. So to satisfy fighting on these multiple fronts in these early years. Um and I think um one of the questions that people often have um when they look at to size early itinerary is, you know, he seems to be sort of jumping around, um is he someone who knows exactly where he wants to be going? Some people have even looked at those early years and and said, well, um you know, his his his conversion to republicanism is just a tactical one. I don’t think that at all. I mean, I think from the very word go, he has a very clear idea of what he wants to do and what he wants to achieve. It’s the, it’s the context around him that is so unstable and unsteady and he has to spend particularly those early years stabilizing it before he can commit himself fully to the french. So I would, I would always reverse the sort of traditional way which for example, the french continue to talk about Tusa as someone who converts to republicanism in 17 94. I think that’s just ridiculous because the french were themselves not committed to a truly Republican policy in santa Monica in the early 17 nineties. It’s only when the enslaved men and women of santa, mine basically forced the french to abolish slavery, that Tucson realizes that they are now potential allies. And then he goes over to the french side in 17 94.

[0:22:29 Peniel] I wanted to talk about the context that you’re talking because um especially when it comes to two cent and his his rivals, these other generals, these lieutenants, I’m thinking of Jean, Jacques de Selene. Um, just just a lot of different folks, Henry christoph. Um, I think what you show throughout the book is how to sense trying to knit together these coalitions with him as the head of the coalition always. But he’s trying to knit together these coalitions that really when I was reading the book as somebody who’s both Haitian and a student of Haitian history, I was thinking about how you really provide nuggets to show how difficult it’s going to be in the post Revolutionary period to come up with a solidified unified identity. Because there are so many different regional and ethnic differences that in a way the the anti slavery campaign, the revolutionary campaign for citizenship papers them over for a time. But you show all these tensions including what to san tries to do with different kind of political reforms, but then the orders he does to keep the sugar plantations going to keep the economy going, which are pretty brutal. That that I do want to talk about. But how does, how does to senate really become this kind of charismatic figure who’s capable of really building these coalitions? You know, you have this, um, you know, this quote from Tucson, he says, as I’ve already made clear to you telling his officers in early 17 95 um, a good Soldier should appear cold from the outside and be methodical, loyal and fiery in the inside. So this is really remarkable stuff, 17 95. So you can see the kind of metal this person has, but you also say that he’s a very ambiguous, uh, leader. He’s somebody who never wants to let people know what he’s thinking. He’s somebody who pops up unexpectedly across the island consistently. You just never know where he’s going to be around. Um, so tell us about to say. And you know, you know, almost I think I thought of parts of your book, read like a team of rivals in the sense of these very strong personalities who, um, some who have their own armies who have their own, you know, groups of followers who to send convinces, um, to be part of that larger cause of black freedom for Haiti.

[0:25:15 Sudir] Yes, absolutely. I mean on his, um, on his capacity to just appear and disappear. One of my favorite quotes is by one of the Napoleonic historians who turned up in the french invasion in the early 19th century and who described Tusa as a man who made himself invisible where he was and visible where he was not. And I think that perfectly sums him up, he just seemed to be able to kind of project himself, um you know, in many different places, sometimes in different places at the same time. Um and and part of that is is just that he he was someone who literally couldn’t sit still um uh have descriptions of people who were at meetings with him, where they could see him kind of twitching and fidgeting and and then sometimes literally like running out of the room and jumping onto a horse and then riding away. Uh so he’s he’s just totally extraordinary. And and and everybody who met him uses words, like he uses these kind of superlative words because, you know, uh I mean, I tried to imagine what it must have been like to meet someone like that, who just had this extraordinary amount of knowledge, um who was always three or four steps ahead of you. You know, you were trying to come with a kind of particular request or proposal and he’d already thought about, you know, the next two or three steps. And I think one of the reasons why he is so far ahead of everyone else is that because he’s already made up his own mind where he wants to go and where he thinks the people of santa manc need to go. Um, the problem and this is where I think, um, uh, you know, uh, the sort of depictions of him as someone who is ambiguous or calculating or deceiving come come into play. I think he has to be a little bit uh guarded in terms of what uh, what he reveals about his objectives. Because of course, he can’t say that he wants to, for example, makes undermining an autonomous entity within the french empire. Because the french haven’t yet recognized that colonies can be autonomous. It would take them another 150 years, literally 150 years to come to that realization. Um, so um in some, in some of these respects to size, just way ahead of his time in other respects. Um, and you know, this is where I think um concepts like Machiavellian is um or you know, revolutionary realism come to play, you know, when, when you’re in a revolutionary situation, you have to um you have to make sure that uh, you’re exploiting all the opportunities that are available and open to you, even if it means sometimes uh making deals with your enemies. And I think his relationship with the british is an absolutely a great example of that. He fights them absolutely ruthlessly and and to the death literally and kicks them out of santa Monica in 1998. But as soon as they’ve left, he basically brings them back in because he realizes that a future santa man needs to be able to trade with her neighbors and with the United States. And he basically uses um, the good offices of the americans to strike a very lucrative trade agreement with the british. And um, and there’s nothing, I don’t think, you know, I think thinking about that as deception or ruse is sort of missing the picture. What he’s, what he’s simply concerned with are the best interests of sand among and even if those best interests means sometimes doing things that the french disapproval of he doesn’t mind.

[0:29:16 Peniel] And as we forward fast forward a little bit in terms of the, into the 17, late 17 nineties, early turn of the century, why does to send, uh, invade what we think of as now the Dominican republic and take over the whole island? What are, where the geopolitical stakes uh, in carrying out that? And obviously, uh, there’s a point where the island is completely unified, that is not destined to last. I’d like for us to talk about that because that, that enmity continues to this day

[0:29:51 Sudir] between between

[0:29:53 Peniel] Haitians and Dominicans, even as Haitians and Dominicans have inter married and have Children together. And but there’s there’s also been that that very, very bad blood Dominican massacre of Haitians uh, in the 19 thirties. Um, but talk to us about that, that invasion in 18 oh one because I think that that is still reverberating um today on, on the island.

[0:30:20 Sudir] Mm Yes, No, it’s a very complex story. Uh and and one has to wind back to 17 95. In fact, when the french and the Spaniards signed uh, signed a treaty, the treaty in which the Spaniards actually uh seed um the eastern eastern two thirds of Hispaniola to the french. So so on paper, um santa Domingo as it is then called as, as what is today. The Dominican republic was the import um had been handed over by the Spaniards to the french. However, the french um because uh santa man was then still in the middle of uh this kind of internecine conflict, um the french agreed that they would not take over formerly until the time was right. Um and to buy seven by 1800 really because that’s when you start to see him talking and actively thinking about uh invading santa Domingo by 1800 to have several reasons why he needs, he feels he needs to take control of the island. The first is strategic because he’s already starting to think that the french or someone may try and invade uh the island of Hispaniola and then tried to remove him and his black revolutionaries from, from power. And uh, the eastern side of the island is the natural place for troops to be uh sent to and and to disembark. So he wants to control the whole of the island. Um, there’s also the issue of slavery, slavery has been abolished on the french side, but it actually continues in the, on the spanish side. And even worse we have, you know, documented evidence of black men and women being captured in on the french side and then being sold into slavery on the spanish side. So Tucson wants to put an end to that. Um, and also because Tucson is a complicated figure. Um, what he also, I think is looking at when he sees santa Domingo is a very large territory with very fertile soil and you know, some of his proclamations, um particularly those where he’s sort of inviting french settlers to come and farm. Uh the land in santa Domingo are sort of classic um you know, um almost sort of settler colonial entrepreneurship. You know, he wants he wants to exploit the resources of of this territory for uh for the benefit of um the whole of the whole of the island and indeed for the benefit of France as well. So there’s a mixture of uh of reasons why he wants to go ahead and do this. Um uh but it is true that he when when when he carries out this this invasion, he’s acting against the express instructions of uh of the Ministry of Navy was told him, you know, categorically that this intervention should not occur.

[0:33:47 Peniel] Mhm. And now when we think about two cents relationship with the french uh and Bonaparte and what leads to his downfall? Uh let’s discuss that because gasoline is going to be one of two sends generals and lieutenants and gasoline is gonna want much more political access. And Tucson just really sort of sees him as a cog, a useful one, but just as a cog and ultimately that’s going to lead to two cents downfall. Which is interesting because when he’s taken, he doesn’t have his bodyguards, he doesn’t have his retinue, he doesn’t have his soldiers around him, which I find fascinating. But let’s talk about, you know, what ultimately leads to Tucson’s downfall. Um you know, his his efforts that some kind of conciliation with the french, um what what what makes him vulnerable to, what actually happens to him?

[0:34:49 Sudir] Well, I think things break down at two levels external and internal, externally. His relationship with napoleon, which is one that he, you know, he realizes that napoleon is a very powerful figure and he does his absolute best to to appease in. Um and you know, in the book, for example, I tell the story of how josephine with napoleon’s wife writes to Tusa sometime in the second half of the 17 nineties to basically uh you know, plead for Tucson’s help in restoring the barney family plantations in uh in or near Logan and and to sandals that so thanks to Tusa, um you know, josephine and her family are, you know, earning money again from from their plantations. So, so he’s helping the Bonaparte’s and and to say, writes a number of letters to Bonaparte after 17 99 all of them go unanswered. Um and I think um napoleon is basically someone who is under the influence all the more so that this chimes with his own ideology, under the influence of the pro colonial and the pro slavery lobby in France. And they are the ones who are calling the shots when it comes to colonial policy in the early 18 hundreds. When you look at the entourage, napoleon’s entourage in the kansai data, when you look at his, his Ministry of Navy, when you look at his key advisers on colonial policy, they’re all people who are not just pro empire, but they’re pro slavery. So, um, that’s where the relationship, I think breaks down between Tucson and the french at the national level. And unfortunately, um, as Tusa is forced, I think, um, and this is my interpretation to take increasingly authoritarian measures, both politically and economically domestically, um, in order to keep the economy in particular a float, um, so that he can fight off any, any external attempt uh, to take control of santa manque. Um, he becomes more and more authoritarian and loses some of the support that he had enjoyed in the previous years and, and, and particularly his, um, I mean there’s two things that I think are problematic internally. One is his uh, agrarian policy and particularly there’s a labour code that he promulgates in 1800 which basically introduces a form of martial law on the plantations. Uh, it basically eliminates freedom of movement for the workforce and this is something that is very greatly resented by the, by the wage laborers. I mean they’re still wage laborers, but their wage laborers who are tied to to the plantation. So for many of them, it almost feels like slavery is back, although of course it’s not the same thing, but it feels like it in some respects. And the other thing is too, feels that he has to uh, create a very clear barrier between santa Monica and France. And that’s what leads him to adopt the 18 oh one constitution, which basically abolishes slavery forever. And, and the reason that is there is because Tusa is already anticipating that the french sooner or later are going to come and try and restore slavery. Um, but in doing that to create, I suppose a space for some of his ambitious lieutenants to position themselves more favorably with the french. And that’s what happens with gasoline Diesel in, uh, realizes that, you know, the french invasion when it comes, presents him with an opportunity. Um, and he uses that opportunity to basically helped the french get hold of Tucson. So the discipline becomes the dominant figure.

[0:38:55 Peniel] And when we think about what the french did with Tucson, um, he’s taken to this fort, a medieval fortress and basically, uh he’s almost starved to death and um uh just really really mistreated. Can you tell us about the end in terms of what, what happens?

[0:39:17 Sudir] Yes. So he’s captured treacherously by the french. This is after he signs an an honorable armistice. You know the french invade and they try and defeat the santa Monica army militarily and they fail. So basically there’s a stalemate between the two groups and to southern signs a truce which for him is just breathing space because what he thinks is going to happen is what effectively happens two years later or a year and a half later, which is that the french will get worn down by by disease, particularly by yellow fever and will eventually be defeated. But but that strategy needs time. So to just signs an agreement according to which all his soldiers and officers are reintegrated into the french army anyway. But the french had other ideas. So they capture him, um ship him and his family off to France. He separated from his wife and Children and he ends up in this place called the ford Group, which is in the eastern side of France, cold forbidding uh in the jura mountains, um and particularly cruel to put tropical person um in such surroundings. Um he’s treated relatively well in the first few months, um and even allowed to access to pen and paper, which he uses to, among other things, to write what has come to be known as his memoir. Although it’s not really a kind of memoir in the conventional sense, it’s more of sort of report where he justifies all his actions, He attempts to justify all his actions to napoleon, but when, when napoleon realizes that he’s not going to get much change with from Tucson, he just starts to treat him very badly and he’s harassed amount of food that he receives is reduced. The amount of fuel that he receives is also reduced and he just starts to get sick and those last few months are just terrible. You know, late 18 oh two, early 18 oh three, he develops multiple ailments and he’s found dead in his cell in april 18 oh three.

[0:41:37 Peniel] But the revolution continues and uh, gasoline jean, Jacques gasoline becomes, you know, announces Haiti as a as a, as a liberated republic, january 1st 18 oh four. What what is, what is to sense ultimate legacy in this world of atlantic revolutions that you describe, you know, because there’s so much happening here and so often we don’t place Haiti as something that’s central to that period of revolutionary enlightenment, really what gave us the Declaration of Independence, the rights of man, really Western modernity in a lot of ways Black Spartacus shows you it’s centers to san and Haiti as really the center of that project who believe in it more than the white architects and the european architects believe in it.

[0:42:30 Sudir] Absolutely. I think that’s a, that’s a lovely way of putting it because in a sense, it seems to me if you’re looking for the true embodiment of the revolution, of the revolutionary spirit of the late 18th century, it is in santa manning and Haiti that you have it because they are the ones who actually take the principle of equality and fraternity to its logical limits, which is one which includes the abolition of slavery and the principle of racial equality. And those were two things which were absolutely at the heart of Tucson’s own political and strategic objectives. And so his legacy is one which is phenomenal because you see to sign the Haitian revolution continuing to inspire anti slavery movements all across the atlantic world in the 19th century. And and it is a long 19th century because, you know, um slavery isn’t abolished in CUBA, for example, until the 18 eighties and in the United States not until the mid 18 sixties. And and and people like Frederick douglass talk are just endlessly fascinated by, by two solloway too. So he becomes this iconic figure in the in the battle against slavery. And come come the 20th century, once you start to see men and women um fighting against colonialism and imperialism, there comes to sign there come the Haitian revolutionaries again. So one of the things I try to do at the end of the book is actually do a sort of genealogy intellectual genealogy of how this revolutionary influence continues all the way up to the present. And so even if historians have been rather patchy and and rediscovered the Haitian revolution relatively late and now. Now, fortunately we’re in a good, good place when it comes to historical work on Haiti, there’s a lot of it and a lot of it is and all of it is really a really great quality. For a long time there had been a silence as Michelle of Toyo declared about the Haitian revolution. But my point is when it comes to the popular imagination, the imagination of men and women and struggling against slavery, struggling against colonialism, struggling against imperialism, to sell a virtue and the men and women of the Haitian revolution never really died.

[0:45:02 Peniel] All right, we’ll close there. This is this is excellent. We’ve been chatting with Sadeer Hazari Singh who is a professor at Balliol College Oxford and an outstanding historian who has written extensively about french intellectual and cultural history and the atlantic world. And his latest book is Black Spartacus, the Epic Life of Toussaint Louverture and this is one of my books of 2020 and this year of Black Lives Matter and uh global revolt. Um this is an epic tale of not just too soon but the Haitian revolution and the wider revolutions of the atlantic world that really centers Two says this thought leader is this revolutionary as this Black Spartacus. Uh this is a real treat. It’s a it’s an epic work for an epic life. Uh and just really well done. It’s it’s really been an honor. Pleasure to talk to speak with you. Thank

[0:45:59 Sudir] you very much Peniel. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you.

[0:46:03 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on twitter at Peniel joseph. That’s Peniel Joseph and our website CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu. And the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts, at the University of texas at Austin. Thank you. Mhm mm