Ep. 61 – Georgia on My Mind: Atlanta and the Legend of the Black Mecca with Maurice Hobson

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. All right, we’re pleased to welcome Dr Maurice J. A. Hobson, who is associate professor of African American studies and historian at Georgia State University and who has just written a wonderful new book, The Legend of the Black Mecca. Politics in Class in the Making of Modern Atlanta. Maurice Hobson. Welcome to Race and Democracy.

[0:00:42 Maurice] Hey, brother, the pleasure is all mine to be here. And congratulations on all of your new accolades with your new book, Sword and Shield

[0:00:48 Peniel] Man. No, thank you, Maurice. I really loved reading this book. I’ve read so much on Atlanta just as a as a historian of the civil rights movement, I think what’s so unique about your voice is how you’re able to braid these different Atlanta’s together in this argument, really, in a way I’ve never seen done, you know? So I think it’s quite an accomplishment. All the great books by Tomiko Brown Nagin and Winston Grady Willis and, you know, books by political scientists over the years that look at black mayors, you put it all in here together you have everything from Maynor Jackson and the Atlanta Child Murders to, you know, the Summerhill uprising of 68 Stokely Carmichael, then into Andrew Young and sort of these neo liberal policies of making what you call the Olympic fication of Atlanta, which I thought was really, really great. And then I love you know, I’m I’m a generation extra. I love outcast and goodie mob. You talk about a sweet spot By the end of the book, I just wanted more, so I wanted, you know, we could start from the beginning, but I think it’s so cool that you politics and class in the making of modern Atlanta. You’re not a scholar who’s afraid to shy away about thes contradictions about you know Maynard Jackson in the 1977 Strike, and at the same time he helps the black elite and others with the airport and the contracts going from 1% to 30% basically overnight. So let’s dig into this legend of black Mecca and and one of the great things you do very early on to is talk about how Atlanta has all these HBC use. Morehouse, Spelman and Atlanta was such play such a critical role during the Civil War and after. So you really look at Atlanta? I think the only two places I could think of that have the kind of cachet. Is Harlem in Atlanta in terms of black folks and black history?

[0:02:45 Maurice] Yeah, well, first of foremost, thank you for taking the time to read the book. You know, you know, sometimes we write these books to get tenure, and you just hope that it’s received well, and, uh, it’s been very well received. I mean, I did create some enemies, but I will say this first and foremost. I mean, I have the absolute utmost admiration for being a Jackson personal, and and Andrew Young and Ambassador Andrew Young and I actually very close friends and I interview him and we talk. And so when people read the book that, like, they can’t be friends. But the thing about it is, I am blessed to be a historian that is trained in political science, sociology and economics. And it’s part of the reason why I am not in a traditional or conventional history program is because, uh, you have to marry different kind of methodologies to be able to tell a story, particularly when you’re telling the story of marginalized people. Truth of the matter is that much of the black experience is not in an archive, and so we have to recreate and reframe and rethink what we believe archives to be. And I was able to kind of marry Ah, lot of that. There’s some really cool personal stories as to how I ended up doing this work. The cool thing about it is the book can go from the ebb and flow of Atlanta is a special place for black folk. But then, on the flip side, I mean, we put so much pressure on Atlanta to be something for black folk when it’s it’s not that for everyone. And so it doesn’t allow for Atlanta the embodiment of Atlanta, to be humane. I mean, there are winners and losers and everything that we do in life. I named this book The Legend of the Black Mecca, because for every legend there is truth. The trick is, is we must understand what is really or what is true and what is embellished. And that’s the line that I really wanted to walk and so

[0:04:35 Peniel] and speaking on that line, I want you toe situate Maynard Jackson for us because I think with the new documentary in the last couple of years, Maynard, which is on Netflix, which I’ve seen really nice. He’s gotten a second look and you argue here, you know, he’s the first black big city mayor of ah, major urban metropolis in the South, and I think that’s exactly right. Eso It’s not Detroit. It’s not Los Angeles with Tom Bradley. It’s not Gary, Indiana with Richard Hatcher. It’s not Coleman Young in Indiana in Cleveland, it’s Atlanta, the really the black mecca. So tell us about Maynor Jackson. And really, you give a nice, holistic perspective here on Maynard Jackson. There’s some great pictures, too. I recommend everybody to get this book and tell us about Maynard Jackson.

[0:05:32 Maurice] So I’ll tell you what. You know. That documentary on Netflix? I was blessed to service the chief historian for that, and, uh, I’m in the document. The joke is, is I’m in the documentary as much as Maynard Jackson is. But I’m also the only person in the documentary who doesn’t have a personal affiliation with Maynard Jackson in the sense of being a mentor or benefiting from business or being a political person. I met Maynard Jackson once when I was five years old with my parents, and I still remember that day. But in the story on how I got into that documentary is an even better story than what I’m about to say about Maynard. Jackson made it. Holbrook Jackson Jr was 1/5 generation Georgian. He was born in Dallas, Texas, but on both sides of his of his family, his maternal family and his paternal family. They were Georgians, um, in the tradition of the American South. And, you know, I’m not here promoting paternalism in any kind of way hits his, uh, paternal grandfather was Alexander Jackson, who was the founder of Wheat Street Baptist Church, which is in the Sweet Auburn district, which was considered to be one of the more radical churches we street just celebrated. Ah, 151 years, um, this past summer. So it’s been around, you know, just after the Civil War and then his maternal grandfather. His mother’s father was John Wesley Dobbs, who was deemed as the unofficial mayor. The sweet Auburn district, the sweet Auburn district is the business thoroughfare for black for the black community in Atlanta, and it boasts as many other communities that it was the richest Negro Street in the world. His grandfather, John Wesley Dobbs, was also the highest ranking mason in all of Georgia, and so he had real influence. John Wesley Dobbs had six daughters and his oldest daughter, Irene Dobbs Jackson, was maintenance mother. She received. She had gone to Spelman College, did a PhD at the University of Toulouse. His father made it. Uh Jackson Sr was born in New Orleans, but again was Georgia blooded and moved to Dallas, where you pastor the church. And then he moved to Atlanta, where he works at Morehouse College and serves as dean of the chapel at the age of 15 Main, it goes to Morehouse College. He goes to public schools in Atlanta, goes toe Morehouse College. His father dies in his teenage years, his grandfather racism. And when he goes to Morehouse College, Hey does very well majors in history and political science. So go figure he’s able to go off to to law school. He first goes to Boston, and then he goes to north Carolina Central University, North Carolina College, which later becomes North Carolina Central. And he isa feisty mayor. I mean, he’s a He’s a very charismatic kind of person. I mean, you know, particularly in the black community, American South. I mean, he’s, you know, wavy hair, his green eyes. He’s light skinned as this booming voice, and that’s often depicted when people talk about him. But he also was, you know, severely serious about politics. And he moves back to Atlanta from North Carolina with his family, 1966 and in 1968. Basically, what happens is after the assassination of Dr King in Atlanta doesn’t erupt, and then the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. Maynard Jackson has to do something. He and his wife had just had a baby, and he decides that he is going to run for the U. S. Senate against Herman Talmadge, which is one of the old Southern oligarchical families here in Georgia. I mean, there’s stones, white supremacist. He does this and he doesn’t ask for the hand of the, uh it doesn’t ask for the permission from the Atlantic, where voters league with Tomiko Brown Nagin really discusses in her book with the Atlanta Saleh Bi racial negotiation, which his grandfather, John Wesley Dobbs, was one of the co founders off. So that’s the story in that I mean, I don’t want to get too deep into it. What happens, though? Maynard Jackson loses handily, Uh, in this in this Senate race. But he’s able to carry Atlanta, and he’s able to make a name for himself around the state. And so, in 1969 he runs for vice mayor. Whereas Sam Missile would become the first Jewish mayor of Atlanta and, of course, Sam Marcel. It suffered from the same discrimination that black folk had suffered against because he was Jewish. I mean, you know, white Americans, justice, much anti Semitic as it is racist, anti black, you know. And so So. What happens with this, though, is Jackson is elected as vice mayor. He changed. He helps to change the Constitution. And then he decides he’s going to run for mayor, and he does all of this without necessarily consulting the kingmakers, the black kingmakers. But what Maynard is able to understand, what he runs from there is that there was a changing demographic and also with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 coming out of Birmingham, which buttresses the 14th Amendment and the passage of the Voting Rights Act. Uh, in 1965 that comes out of my home town of Selma, Alabama. With that promotes voting. You have citizenship and voting, and it becomes Atlanta that it’s seen as a new city, particularly with the sun belt boom and the return migration or reverse migration. And so Atlanta becomes prosperous. Those historically black colleges are attracting a particular group of, uh, young, smart black folks. But what also is happening is that black Americans who had left the American south due to you know several episodes of the Great Migrations were now saying that the North was not all it was cracked up to be. And now that de jure and de facto segregation had been broken down through civil rights legislation that the American Southwest, a new frontier and as a result of that you saw changing demographic may

[0:11:01 Peniel] not wanna talk to you about the new the new South and that new frontier, because I think one of the things that you do very well is to talk about, even if we don’t call him the contradictions. But I think with this you really look at Maynard Jackson. You know, Election Night, Jesse Jackson. There’s all these people there and really, he’s going to serve from 74 to 82 there’s gonna be really major accomplishments. But he really serves within the paradigm of neo liberalism. Hey, really serves within a paradigm of sort of this privatization and commodification this’ll exploitation That really doesn’t serve the black poor very well. But as you show both with Maynard and then Andrew Young and an even bigger way you show the poor discounted and the black elites don’t want you to say anything on behalf of the poor. Certainly the starkest example is gonna be the Atlanta child murders. The folks who get killed Brian Large are are poor Children, the 30 Children who are killed. And so I want you to talk about Maynard Jackson and really the class issues. And despite this and despite what happens with the garbage workers, he’s gonna be reelected handily. So this idea of black faces and higher places and the black mecca becomes so, so important. But black poor people are left behind. It’s a real contradiction because people like Maynard Jackson in the late sixties and as vice mayor he was constantly talking about poverty, right? And so he comes in and it becomes this sort of neo liberal framework where it’s gonna be trickled down and things were really built up, but really at the expense or or not, not with parallel movement and access for poor black Atlantans.

[0:12:54 Maurice] Well, and you know, I think that manage time as mayor. I think that Maynard Jackson did the best he could with what he had because it was uncharted waters, particularly in the American South. And what’s what’s unique about the American South is that I used to make this argument in graduate school when there was there would be some hard core leftist who would say things like, Well, you know, the black upper class and middle class have thrown the black working class support of the bus, and I was like, I I think it’s way more complicated than that. I was like, I mean, the truth of the matter is because of segregation, the visual market markings of segregation, and what I mean by that is. I mean, where I grew up in Selma, Alabama. If you go to the football field where I played high school football, their monuments, that’s a colored and white for for World War Two veterans. I mean, so So you gotta understand. Like, is there very clear differences? What I think, really, this really is is that the greatest gladiator pit in the world is American capitalism. And here it is. Ah, black Mayor, A radical thinking black mayor at that time is working within a claret red conservative state. And though he’s mayor, you know, cities. At that time it depended heavily, heavily on federal funds and investments and whatever whatnot, and they begin toe hold that from Atlanta. And so here Maynard Jackson is he’s navigating these waters. And so the thing about this, though, is that one of the things I mean, Maynard Jackson is one of the most notable statesman in terms of black politics. I mean, he was a race man. He would he could negotiate. But then on the flip side is he was really trying to give some things to black folks. But the truth of the matter is that the folks in Atlanta, particularly the power brokers, the white business elite. They only wanted to select fewer people to get some things. And so the thing about it is, the Atlanta child murders does become this episode, where we can really see those class divisions. But truthfully, black folk in the American South all live amongst each other, where you whether you’re black elite or you or you could be the lumpen proletariat. Everyone knows each other. All of the community you go to the same church is the barbecue spots, the barber shops, all kinds of different things. And so it’s not a starkly different as it would be in a place like Detroit per se. Um, and I’m not singling out Detroit. But with the Atlanta child murders, I mean the problem. Waas is that Mainer? It took him a year to admit that there was a serial killer. Now, one of the things I pushed in my research is that the murder start as early as 1975 and end his latest 1985. So it Z and it’s way more than the 30 that we all know off, which is part of the reason why the legend of the black mecca becomes the basis for the Atlanta, uh, child murder missing and murdered on HBO. So I served as a producer for that. Ah, consultant and producer for that. But the thing about it is that Maynard Jackson, it takes him a year to admit that there black Children being murdered. These are by and large, poor black male Children the best, you know, the most vibrant of vulnerable population in Atlanta. And nothing was being done. I mean, even to this day. 2020. On November 13th, 2020 Wayne Williams, who sits in jail, was convicted of killing two adults. So all of the murders of the Children that we know of no one has been brought to justice on that. And so that’s the and that’s the reason. Um, speaking of that, that’s the reason I met. Named it Jack’s when I was five years old, my father was offered a job to work at Morehouse School of Medicine, and he didn’t take the job because they were killing black Children in Atlanta and nothing was being done. And at the time it was three boys and a girl in my family And so with that being said an interesting thing that I don’t put in the book because I know it’s true. But I can’t prove it. Empirically is that every Tuesday, Maynard Jackson would fly to Washington, D. C, meet with President Jimmy Carter, who was from Georgia, and beg him toe open. Ah, federal case on the Atlanta child murders and Jimmy Carter would not do it. And so what happened is this when Ronald Reagan comes in office that that actually takes place. Now I know that that’s true because of some notes that I’ve been ableto witness, but the notes are kind of hand written, and so I can’t just kind of cited in terms of bibliography. Um, but with that being said, I mean at that time also Maynard Jackson’s son, Maynard Jackson. The third, who we call affectionately Buzzy, fit the profile of what it meant to be a missing and murdered child. I mean, it was a particular frame. He had an Afro hairstyle. He was a black boy. And so, um, there’s a lot more to this than that. But you’re right. It does lean into the neoliberal politics that will emerge in the 19 eighties, 19 seventies and eighties. And

[0:17:44 Peniel] so let’s move on Thio, the Olympic fication, and you’re really very critical of Andrew Young’s morality. And as you I think as you should, and I know you’re friends with him. Why is Andrew Young, this kind of mayor between 1980 83 1991? In the sense of this idea of international investment? I know some of it has to do with globalization and deindustrialization, and you get the Democratic National Convention there in 1988 and we think about Jesse Jackson’s second run and Ron Brown becomes head of the DNC. There’s so much stuff happening where there are elites gaining access and Andy Young has been a congressman. At this point, he’s been mayor. He’s been U N ambassador. So on some levels, this racial progress. But I think as you show crack, cocaine is tremendous. There’s crime, uh, you know, urban renewal, gentrification at the lower frequencies, Black Atlanta is really producing the kind of misery that then outcast and goodie mob are gonna be reflecting upon and critiquing. You know, the whole 80 aliens and you know, Marta moving Africans rapidly through Atlanta. So I want us toe talk about talk about that.

[0:19:08 Maurice] So So So So, yeah. I mean, that’s a great question. Um, the interesting thing about Andrew Young and and I’ll say this When I wrote my dissertation while finishing at the University of Illinois, I was way more critical of Andrew Young because I could Onley go with the record that I had. Now, once I was able to move to Atlanta and sit down and do interviews. Um, I’m not letting him off the hook, but he gave me a lot more context to what, what was going on? And this this is context that that he could prove. And so what’s going on during this time is that, of course, when Ronald Reagan comes into office, Eyes is elected as president in 1980 is inaugurated in 1981 we see an onslaught of different things. I mean Reaganomics and the trickle down which never worked. We see the shift in the the economy moving from the industrial age to the Information Age, and of course, you know, the Sun Belt boom has taken advantage of that. But what that does in terms of education is the education that was that was given in public schools, particularly in the 19 forties fifties. What post 1945 until about 1980 or 1985 was one for industry. I mean, many of us and I’m brother panel. I’m sure that, you know, even in your family, even during your time I mean, we knew people that graduated from high school, they may have been older than us, and they could go get a good job and make the proverbial good money that we talked about in the black community. Um, but what happens is with that information, age and technology in that boom. The curriculum that was being taught in public schools, um, was not adequate for this new shift and information age due to the Cold War. And what happens with that is black and brown people are overwhelmingly left out of, you know, left left out without the proper education. What also is taking place here is the rise of the AIDS epidemic. Um, which is, you know, heavily, uh, impacting black communities for several different reasons. Another thing is the rise of crack cocaine and the interesting thing about crack cocaine and the AIDS epidemic is that there’s money that is, particularly with the the war on drugs. There’s about a trillion dollars has taken from public education to create the school to prison nexus. We see the militarization of the police. And so we begin to understand that prison is big business. And with crack cocaine, we see legislation that has passed that overwhelmingly targets black and brown, black and brown folks. Now, we also have some things going on internationally in terms of the the Iran Contra scandal. So you could see how all these things are working. But with Andrew Young, when he comes into office, we see a real divestment in terms of federal funds to cities. And so, as you stated, you know, Andrew Young was a lieutenant for Dr King. Hit served in Congress for several years. I mean, he was the first congressman to be elected since Reconstruction. He then is tapped to be U. N. Ambassador. He serves for a couple of years with that under President Jimmy Carter, but then he’s dismissed because he has a meeting with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. Now the interesting thing about Ambassador Young is his job was to promote American capitalism disguised as Dr King’s dream to the black world. So, to Africa, the Caribbean, South America, uh, to stave off the Soviets and the Communist and Communist China, Young was able to make friends around the world because he was there to show respect. I mean, at that time before President Jimmy Carter, the U. S s image around the world have been tatted because of the Vietnam conflict. And so, as a result of this, um, Young went to African nations and say, Hey, let’s see how we could work together. We want to respect you all, And and Young is able to make friends as a result of this. And so when he becomes mayor and Ronald Reagan is taking the money out of the city, Andrew Young is ableto call on his friends on the continent and in the Caribbean who invest in the city. But what that also means is that Europe is now coming to invest in the city. And so we see a privatization, a real aspect of international neoliberalism that builds up Atlanta. But we also begin to understand that the citizens of Atlanta, particularly the black and poor citizens of Atlanta. Um, see, Andrew Young is kind of this globe trotting mayor, a mayor that’s not here and doing nothing for them. And again, it’s a byproduct of American capitalism. I mean, Ronald Reagan was punitive towards black communities in the 19 eighties. Eso it doesn’t give AMBASSADOR Younger pass, um, but it complicates the situation. And so when we begin to talk about the Atlanta hosting the Democratic National Convention for Atlanta, creating the Red Dog Police to militarized police in the 19 eighties for crack cocaine, and we begin to kind of know and understand that Atlanta is pushing to be this Olympic city and what it would take to kinda sell the city for that and how I mean even Dr King’s dream his image, his legacy was exploited on the world stage to kind of show Atlanta as being the home of the you know, Atlanta, the free and home of the brave. And you know all of that with Dr King. What happens is once Atlanta wins the Olympic Games is basically Dr King’s exploited, legacy whitewashed legacy that disfranchised criminalizes, demonizes and displaces the people that King would fight hardest for the black poor. And that’s why you see outcast and goodie mob emerged when I talk about the Olympic fication of Atlanta. And so that’s the substance for

[0:24:56 Peniel] them. And let me let me say in here because I want to talk about outcasts and goodie mob. Um, and then I wanna have that as, ah, a final departure from the book and then get to the contemporary when you think about outcasts and goody mom, you talk about the Dirty South and Dirty South hip hop, and this is even before Bun B before trail. Before, um, you know, ah, lot of what we’re going to see Jay Z get into Dirty South and other folks. What? So you talk about the SWAT Southwest Atlanta you talk about, you know, in certain ways, uh, there from areas like, you know, Vine City in the 19 sixties, and and these are areas I’ve been to. I’ve done a lot of research in Atlanta, and so what’s the different perspective that goodie mob and outcasts are able to do both for Atlanta but also nationally because they’ve become such national stars, especially obviously outcast. But I definitely love soul food Goodie Mob’s first album, and that stands for the good guy, mostly over bullshit. And they really, really great, you know, And they talk about, I’ve been to the beautiful they talk about, you know, I’ve been to Pascal’s, I’ve I’ve done the tour of black Atlanta, but also the tour of the SWATs and the whole 80 aliens. And, you know, in that outcast is talking about mass incarceration. They talk about the drug war and the new Jim Crow there really breaking it down. Um, what is so important about them? Because you really add something by talking about them.

[0:26:29 Maurice] So So what becomes so important about out casting Goodie mob and and I’ll say this e mean outcast and goodie mob in Atlanta. They were not the first on the scene in the American South. They’re the first to kind of marketed in a particular way. But one of the things I lay out is the political theory of the black New South, which allows where Atlanta to emerge as this kind of black mecca as a result of the civil rights legislation that comes out of Alabama. So if the black New South is the political movement much like black power. The Dirty South is Theo expressive movement, much like the black arts movement. So that’s how I’m situating it. But this is the thing about it. Um, this Atlanta is, uh, one of the issues that we see in Atlanta today is you got Atlanta and you have a T l now outcast and goodie mob. They don’t say they’re from a T l. They are from Atlanta, and it gives you this kind of field of like, Atlanta is a big country town. It’s a it’s a southern town, like I mean, we make no if ands or buts about it. We are who we are. A large influx from Alabama, from Tennessee, from the Carolinas and from Florida. But and and that’s the thing about being here is for someone like me who grew up, you know, 190 miles away from Atlanta. Um, I mean, I can see my high school classmates every day if I want to, because it’s so many of us here. But the thing what’s really about this is that they come from these particular neighborhoods, that that’s not seen in terms of the black methods So the black Mecca piece is often times this. The black mecca has this relationship with white business elite. Well, what what out casting goodie mob do initially is that they bring about this kind of understanding of the blackest parts of Atlanta that that’s not seen by every one s. Several years ago, I wrote this piece about the TV show Atlanta, um, on Fox, and I called it all black. Everything within a with that Southern twang, all black everything. And I talk about how, like their these parts of Atlanta, that’s not a part of that glitz and glamour of a TL in the black Mecca. It’s like Riel black Atlanta Also with this is UGK eight ball and mg UGK from pulled off the Texas Eight ball and MG from Memphis, Tennessee. Uh, Geto Boys from Houston, Texas, crisscross Jermaine Dupri. They they all proceed. Um, outcast and their Southern artists. They may not always looking sound that way, but I mean, I think you jk in Memphis do. But when outkast goodie mob set the scene and they coined that term, the Dirty South, which becomes a rallying cry and their first music is really critiquing the Olympic Franchising of Atlanta for world consumption and the criminalization, demonization, displacement and disenfranchisement of Atlanta’s black indigenous community with soul and funk. And that has a lot to do with Maynard Jackson, who put some money into the arts industry. You get a very different black Southern sound, and and the thing about our casting goodie mob, which is why I created the Black New South, is listen, we’re not missing anything. Being Southern, as a matter of fact, were the heart and soul of black America. That’s what that’s what you get with this. And I think that that is what they’re able to do in Atlanta becomes the venue. It becomes the hub and the experiences of black Atlantans. I mean, whether they’re black elite or the black, poor and working class, I think that it resonates with the rest of black America. And it could even extend over into, you know, the black world, particularly in terms of the influx of Nigerian Ghanian, um, Caribbean folk who live in this

[0:30:11 Peniel] area. Yeah, I’m part of the Caribbean folks. I’m proudly Haitian in black Americans. So say so, uh, I want to talk about the contemporary Maurice, especially uh, Stacey Abrams. And I know you’ve you’ve you’ve advised folks who are running for office in in both Atlanta, Georgia at the national level to I want to Talk About Georgia turning Blue from Red Stacey Abrams, really being, um, defeated in a closely contested gubernatorial race. But really, instead of, uh, somehow losing hope organizing the largest voter turnout in in black Georgia history over 600,000 new voters in the 2020 election for Biden Harris, the first black woman elected vice president. Let’s talk about Georgia. There’s gonna be a runoff on January 5th for 22 Senate seats. And if Democrats win those Senate seats, the Senate is gonna be a 50 50 tie with the vice president holding the tie breaker. It’s not all gravy, even if they win because of Joe Manchin and Kirsten Cinema and these Blue Dog Democrats Yellow dog Democrats they used to call him S O. I want to talk about Georgia in 2020 you know, which really is about a couple of decades after you leave off. Uh, you know, the legend of the black Mecca and Atlanta in 2020 with Mayor Kesha, Lance Bottoms and And how? How similar and dissimilar is Atlanta under Mayor Kesha Lance Bottoms, who extraordinary black women 2020 is the year of black women Who who saved democracy. Um, how different is the Atlanta of Kesha Lance bottoms from the neo liberalism off the Maynor Jackson and Andrew Young? Uh, administrations And And how? How similar is it, um, to to that in terms of in terms of 2020? And it can somebody like Stacey Abrams when you think about Georgia, could she transform if she becomes the first black woman ever in American history? We’ve been around for 244 years. 2026. We’re gonna be 250 years old. We’ve never had a black woman governor of any state in American history, and Stacey Abrams might make that history in 2022 she was considered his vice president, and certainly many of us think Stacy might be, uh, maybe the second black woman to be president. Maybe after Kamila Harris. So I want to talk about Georgia in Atlanta in the contemporary context.

[0:32:56 Maurice] Well, I’m here to tell you, you know, last week during the election season. And you know, we’ve We’ve We’ve seen that Georgia has been trending blue for the last few years. And, of course, Stacey Abrams, we would call a leader Abrams, of course. Um, Miss Stacey Abrams and Fair Fight has done due diligence on. There have been some other organizations, and Leader Abrams has always been very gregarious and telling Who those are my sister, Latasha Brown, with black voters matter eyes, also a formidable force who got on the bus and was riding everywhere. Went to 15 states, um, toe to really get black folks registered eso. It’s Latasha Brown and Cliff Albright Who did that. And then my sister here, young sister, uh, in say you fat of the new Georgia projects. So there’s a whole slew of black women here who are working together. Um, but the thing about it is that Georgia is, is is changing in so many ways. I mean, Atlanta is roughly about six million people, and I think the population of Georgia is roughly 11 million people. So, of course, Atlanta is the city state. It’s I mean, like so as Atlanta go well, how Atlanta goes. So does Georgia. You know, Um, but the thing about it and you mentioned, um, the honorable Mayor Kesha Lance Bottoms. Um What? What is different about Mayor Bottoms? Tenure as mayor versus Maynard Jackson and Andrew Young is that when Major Jackson and Andrew Young were mayors, the city was roughly 67% black. The city of Atlanta. Now we’re not talking about the suburbs. The city of Atlanta was 67% black, and during the 19 seventies and eighties, the majority of black people who lived in the area lived in the city of Atlanta. Uh, now that Maryland’s bottoms eyes at the helm, the city is 51% black. So what has happened here is due to, you know, cost inflation, urban renewal. Gentrification, neoliberalism, urban regime theory. We’ve We’ve seen where many black folks who grew up in Atlanta cannot afford to necessarily live in the city. I mean, it’s extremely expensive to live in the city. And so you see black folk who primarily live out in the suburbs. So we’re seeing a reverse of white flight, Okay. And so the thing about it is Maynard Jackson and Andrew Young knew that you know Atlanta was this diamond in the rough, but it was kind of their well kept secret, and they were able to cultivate it. Whereas Kesha lens bottoms is that the him of an international in world class city? And so it’s no longer a secret. And so to see Mayor Lance Bottoms and how she has to navigate with a governor who is, ah, Lieutenant of 45 how that has played out. I mean, you know, the whole thing with the coronavirus, um, was a serious issue, whereas the governor was, you know, Banning Mask and Maryland’s bottoms was using her power as mayor to implement policies to where it is. UH, it’s law to wear mask in terms of covert 19 when the eruption took place over the summer as a result of the murders of Ahmad Armory, Briana Teyla, George Floyd and Ray Sharp Brooks again, you know, Maryland’s Bottoms, um, really had to kind of pivot and really show who she was. I mean, she’s from Atlanta. She is homegrown, she and and that’s not an act. She is homegrown, and she is beloved in this city, and so and then to see her really work her magic along with other black women who have been elected, You know, whether it be, you know, at the local, state and national level, uh, to really get behind, um, President elect Joe Biden and Vice President elect Kamala Harris. Uh, it makes Atlanta that much more sweeter. Is there,

[0:37:07 Peniel] is there? You know, Maurice is during Atlanta, where you can see the eradication of poverty, the eradication of the kind of racial economic segregation. And we’re talking about the black poor here which you center in your book where they are. They are part of, uh, this new South, where they’re enjoying the benefits off that kind of education and access that the city is producing, at least for some people. Is there? Is there a Is there a vision and version of that? And if so, like what? What would it What would it take?

[0:37:44 Maurice] Well, so, yeah, there is a vision and version of it. There’s a visiting version of it for a select few group of people. And, you know, I am one of those. I mean, I love this city, and I am able to do things in this city, even though not from Atlanta. in Atlanta is a town like that. I mean, you know, if you’re not from here, they look at your side. I until you could prove why, why they want to claim you. Um, but the truth of it, though, is I mean, in 2000, from 2000 to 2010, we see the largest cheating scandal of any, uh, in American history that impacted a generation of black and brown Children who were educated in the public schools. So

[0:38:21 Peniel] jail teachers to jail, the black

[0:38:23 Maurice] Exactly. We also, you know, we we know and understand that. I mean, you know, the displacement of people and gentrification in so many ways has been, I mean, critical to black communities. Um, you know, policies, um, that have diluted black communities in a city like Atlanta. I mean, right now there’s this big issue around this area in downtown called the Gulch, Um, old abandoned kind of field in the middle of downtown Atlanta that had overgrown. And now it’s, you know, selling for five billion, um, bungalows in the West End and in Vine City, English Avenue, which is historically black. And, um, some would, you know, say run down. I mean, now bungalows are selling for $450,000 for a you know, too bad. One bad house in the area is called the Bluff. I mean, these areas that you know, really struggled in terms of 19 eighties nineties and even presently in terms of drugs and violence and all kind of different things. And so there there is a group of black folk who are able to make it, Um, but that just doesn’t trickle to the masses. And I always find it to be problematic that that we must. I find it problematic that the pressure is put on Atlanta to be all things to all people. When the truth of the matter is that there is nothing in this world, there’s no entity, no component of this world. That is all things to all people. And so I think that Atlanta doesn’t allow for itself to be human, human, that they must be everything to everyone. And the truth of the matter is, they’re probably 14 different black Atlanta’s

[0:40:01 Peniel] Where do we go free from here? My, my, My last question to you is really about just, you know, do you feel hope and progress, both somebody who’s, you know, historian of Atlanta and now Atlanta just turned blue for the first time since 1992 but really in a two way presidential race for the first time since 1976. And the Carter because Clinton had Ross Perot. So the better analogy for Biden. It’s really 1976. So Atlanta just turned blue for the first time in 44 years. What’s happening in terms of Georgia? Georgia turning Blue, Atlanta Stacey Abrams, The power of black women? Do you feel hopeful in terms of that history that you, uh, really so so aptly described in legend? The legend of the black Mecca and the contradictions within that history that those contradictions can be can be resolved?

[0:40:55 Maurice] Well, I believe that the contradictions can be resolved. I think that this current, the current American president sitting American president has been so divisive on has pushed buttons in ways to wear. Um, many of his own supporters have abandoned him because, I mean, he threatens things such a civil civil liberties. He threatens, you know, the right to vote. It’s things that, like he he was out of line to kind of come out to come out like that. Eso I’m not sure if with Biden, I’m not sure if and even with the with President elect Biden and Kamala Harris and also, uh, senatorial candidates, um, Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff. I’m not sure if that’s an anti trump vote or what, but to ask me if I feel hopeful. I absolutely do. And I say that because a za professor at Georgia State University, it’s my civic duty to really push my students and all of their peers to go and register and vote. I don’t tell them who to vote for, Um, but what we’ve been able to do and what you know Stacey Abrams and Latasha Brown and say you fight have been able to do is to expand voter rolls. They’ve been able to target communities that I felt dispossessed. One of the things that I did for the Democratic Party is I help to explain to the party why black people in Georgia we’re not voting, and I didn’t do it in terms of, you know, some kind of highbrow intellectual conversation. I took them to places like Bankhead. I took them to play to places like the South Side East Point. I took them to South the cab and Candler Road and I said, I want you to tell them why you don’t vote for him And I told the Democratic Party, If you want to do better, then this is what you have to hear what they’re saying. Um, I think that the Democratic Party has heard the voices of its citizens, and so there is hope. I do have good feelings about the the election for Senators. Um, Wardak is really going to push in a particular way because he is a minister and he is, you know, the pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. And I mean, Dr King means something here, but also he’s been a good neighbor. I mean, he he’s articulated the voice of the old fourth Ward in the sweet Auburn district on how to be good neighbors to the city of Atlanta and Georgia State University. Who Georgia State is kind of considered to be the gentry Fire of downtown Atlanta and Georgia State has to do right by black communities. And so even though I work at Georgia State, I am loyal to black communities. Because this is the community in which I live. Um, so there is hope. Um, And, hey, we’re gonna use all of our powers to promote American democracy. And I’m very clear on what I believe American democracy to be. And it has not been what we witnessed over the last four years.

[0:43:58 Peniel] All right, we’ll end on that note of hope for a better democracy. A better Atlanta. Better Georgia. Better United States of America. We’ve been having a terrific conversation with Dr Maurice J. A. Hobson, who is an associate professor of African American studies and historian at Georgia State University. Public Intellectual. You see him everywhere. His book is the legend of the Black Mecca. Politics and class in the Making of Modern Atlanta. It’s a brilliant new book, really deft analysis. I encourage everyone to get it. Thank you so much for joining us.

[0:44:31 Maurice] All right, brother. And I appreciate you for reaching out,

[0:44:34 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.