Ep. 56 – The Power of the Vote: Election 2020 and Racial Equity: A Conversation with Ambassador Ron Kirk

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Today we are very honored to welcome Ambassador Ron Kirk to our show in our program, which is gonna be all about voting and voting rights. And Ambassador Ron Kirk Eyes, currently senior of counsel in Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher, is Dallas in Washington, D. C. Offices. He is co chair of the international trade Practice group and a member of the Sports Law, Public Policy, Crisis Management and private equity practice groups. And Ambassador Ron Kirk was appointed by President Barack Obama and confirmed by the U. S Senate in 2009 as the United States trade representative. And before that he was mayor of Dallas from 1995 to 2001. And he is a native Austinite is one of those purple squirrels born and raised in Austin who is a Longhorn, graduated from the University of Texas Law and has over 30 years of extensive experience in politics, entrepreneurship, the law, active citizenship. Welcome to our show.

[0:01:25 Ron] Well, I still don’t know what to call you, but I’m gonna call you Dr J because It just said Dr

[0:01:32 Peniel] J. Was one of my heroes. Julius

[0:01:34 Ron] Erving, the original Aziz. Well,

[0:01:36 Peniel] way we have that in common.

[0:01:39 Ron] Yeah, with you. And and you were kind to give me that introduction. But in addition to voting, I would say to the degree that a large part of our audience maybe fellow Longhorn along alums Texas axis as we say, They wouldn’t forgive me if I didn’t say Hook em horns and beat all you because we way no. Absolutely,

[0:02:04 Peniel] absolutely no. Hook em horns honking horns. Um, you know, the vice presidential debate just happened when when this show comes out and be out on Tuesday, so to be out basically six days later. But when we think about where we’re at in the election season, this election cycle, this 2020 year of racial reckoning, I want us to talk about active citizenship. The idea of bipartisanship, the idea of American democracy, interracial multiracial democracy. You’re part of a group of African American elected officials who really, you know, President Barack Obama talked about the Joshua generation, those who came after Dr King who were benefited from the the end of formal legal racial segregation were able to go to predominantly white law schools like University of Texas at law, but also became a new generation of black mayors like you became a mayor right around the time that people like yourself. David Dinkins in New York, Um, Douglas Wilder became governor of Virginia. So this is not the very first class of the late sixties early seventies. But this is by the 19 nineties, uh, you became mayor of Dallas and sort of this new generation of black elected officials who tried to do, um, S O much around issues of equity and racial justice and poverty. But I also thought about entrepreneurship and growing the pie growing the economic pie for all people but black entrepreneurs as well. I want you to talk about both your career, um, in the context of being an elected official. But then, as we move forward to this current period, sort of the contrast between a period where it seemed as if Republicans and Democrats work together during the 19 nineties in certain ways, on certain issues, in ways that now we have hyper partisanship, we have reald division. We have voter suppression, active voter suppression at the federal at the state and local levels. In certain cases, it’s such a different time, and I want to get your perspective and some wisdom on where we’re at today.

[0:04:18 Ron] Well, you’ve given me a lot to come on back. But since we at least Frank, this is a discussion about voting and empowerment. Let’s start with least the the most relevant factor when this airs, at least in the state of Texas. Early voting will have begun on Monday, October the 13th. So if nothing else that I want, um, those of us who might tune into this podcast take from it. If you have not get up and go and vote right now, do it early because we know because of not just the vice presidential debate, but Mork critically. The ending of the presidential debate between President Trump and Vice President Biden was disturbing for a couple of reasons and one that drew the most attention. Waas presidents trump refusal one more time to condemn white supremacist but in the same breath, then turn around and some of us think explicitly but certainly implicitly encouraged his supporters to do everything they could to protect the ballot which many of us know is nothing more than cold for encouraging his supporters to come out and try to intimidate from voting. You combine that with the actions of Governor Abbott, who in explicitly two weeks before the start of early voting in the state of Texas, changes the rules yet again for the return of Bell and balance. And my point is, have a plan to vote early. Voting is going to be a week longer than it normally would be, but because of Cove it because of all the things that we mentioned, there is more anxiety around it. And so one way to avoid the lines, the intimidation, the uncertainty that that could potentially exist on November 3rd is to go vote. Now, Um, now back to your question, you mentioned that I was I forget. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard that term used before to describe us rare black folks who grew up in Boston. But I did grow up in the sauce that cattle up the capital right across 35 between 11 and 12 Street. And I am, um, somewhere between what you referenced President Obama’s um, self definition as a Joshua, baby, I’ve always described myself is the first generation beneficiary of the civil rights movement on that? I’m young enough, um, to remember, um, old enough to remember, um, having attended segregated schools and drinking from segregated water fountains. And the disconnect, frankly, between those of us who grew up in East Austin and the University of Texas, which at that time was was was, was begrudgingly beginning to quote unquote desegregate. Um, and one of the animating factors in my life both in my decision to become a lawyer and also always be engaged in the civic life of our country was, you know, watching my parents suffer all of the indignities they had to for the simple right to vote and the passion, the urgency that they carried with them around everything they were doing in the fifties and sixties, uh, to help remove obstructionist tactics like the whole tax and literacy tax and other ethics that were put in place pulse reconstruction and in the middle of Jim Crow. And so the thought of not being a good steward of everything our parents, many of your listeners, parents and grand parents did to give us the right to just walk in that poll and make a determination for the type of people we wanted to represent us. Free from intimidation, free from the threats of violence, the the idea that we would not be good Stewart’s of that. That that struggle is just not in my DNA. So that’s one of the reasons I decided to go. Law school was as a kid, I knew who. Thurgood Marshall Waas. I had an acute understanding that the biggest gains being made in terms of social justice in combating racism was in the court was because courageous lawyers and principal judges e

[0:09:32 Peniel] think that’s a great segue I want. I want to ask you about that the law you talked about Thurgood Marshall, of course. UH, N double A, C P. Charles Hamilton, Houston Uh, Mary McLeod Bethune and arguing the brown dishes in 1919, 54 later the first African American Supreme Court justice. What do you think about the way in which the law, when we think about the Shelby Holder decision in 2013 and this idea of voter suppression, are you surprised at the way in which the law really in your lifetime went from being really considered a champion of voting rights. Ah, champion of civil rights to really, um, parsing those rights out in much different ways, depending on the ideological makeup of not just, uh, not just the Supreme Court, but federal and appellate and Circuit and other courts. And what do you think about the voter voter suppression that certainly President Trump has articulated a times in concert with his support of certain groups that are are actively trying to suppress the vote, including white supremacist groups. But just the very fact that a state like Texas has closed over 700 polling location since 2013 in a state like

[0:10:51 Ron] doctor, I mean, it is, um, regrettably, it’s not surprising. I mean, I was bitterly disappointed, but the court’s decision in Shelby. But what we’ve seen happen, I think, was predictable in light of that, and and I would say this Aziz, we say the CPI Legal Defense Fund, where I’m a trustee. We call it the Alabama Fication of America. And to be sure, this did not start under President Trump. This began and I would say, Democrats, Democrats, progressives, people of color bear part of the responsibility because we got complacent. We thought when we elected Barack Obama, the judge with the job was done. We were so in love with on such a high with his election that in the 20 the critical 2010 midterm elections, which were also a redistricting year, we did not go back to the polls. And as we know, Republicans flipped something like twin 13 state houses and governorships. And if you go back almost in every one of those cases, the very first thing they did WAAS attempt to restrict women’s reproductive rights and put in place many of these owners restrictions on the right to vote that you articulated where there was All of a sudden, multiple voter identification statutes are very aggressive efforts to, you know, quote unquote purge the voter rolls. And we saw that began to manifest itself in places like Texas in Mississippi and Alabama. And once it became the norm there because of the reality that the champagne pour that shifted 21 interested Maura’s. We used to say, when I was growing up, that was this horrible saying among young lawyers of color to never forget that black folks white folks get justice, black folks get the law, and I think we saw that manifests itself not only in voting, but think about the question posed to Senator Hal Harris and Vice President Pence when they asked about whether, when the moderator asked whether or not we believe that Briana Taylor’s family got Justice Cameron Harris and said, Obviously no on vice president Pence predictably here behind the fact that while we follow the law, But all of that goes to your point because we have not paid as much attention the role of the courts and holding, upholding the truth, the ideals of the Constitution shifting one to a much narrower definition. We’re now in the position that we are in today, and that’s another reason I think, that we have to go to the polls in Masses to understand that as Congress becomes mawr deadlocked for the reasons you enumerated in your introduction, most of the issues that we care about are now being determined in the courts on you. Think about the Trump administration coming in trying to block immigrants based on where they worship. If we think about the Shelby case, we think about reproductive rights the rights of the L G B T community. All of these are ultimately being determined by federal district courts and circuit courts and ultimately the Supreme Court. And that’s another reason it is critically important. Um, that we not be deterred and make sure we go to the port the polls and make sure we vote for people that will appoint judges who will uphold the law, uphold the ideas of the Constitution and the same tradition. Thurgood Marshall and Earl Warren and I do have to draw the point again because this is a podcast originating from your work and my love of the University of Texas. Uh, that we do have to know the 10 years before Brown versus Board of Education, the first major case, Thurgood Marshall, one relative to education was Sweat versus Painter, which is the University of Texas, Um, to overturn the notion of separate but equal education in terms of the application of the law and that ultimately made it possible for people like me and Rodney Ellis and so many others toe have that ability to attend that you and

[0:15:49 Peniel] Ambassador Kirk Well, here’s one of the things I wanted to talk to you about this idea of citizenship and voting, cause I’ve had I’ve debated a couple of times, Congressman Jim Clyburn and one time when C. SPAN and one time at the University of South Carolina about this where he was very, very disappointed about black folks in Ferguson, not voting. And I was, too. But I I thought he was too hard on them. In this sense, I said how all the data shows us. Uh, the more money you make the mawr employed, you are the higher your level of education. Uh, in other words, the more you feel like a citizen, the more you you’re going to vote. You know, uh, there’s connections and correlations with home ownership. There’s connections and correlations with levels of income and levels of wealth. Eso when we think about the people who are less likely to vote, it’s the people who are least likely to feel like citizens, people who are living in racially segregated, economically impoverished areas. So I wanna I wanna I wanted us to talk about that. Why? Why did so many black people not turnout at the polls in 2010? Is it complacency or is a disappointment. And some of the economic transformations that did take place under the Obama regime did not trickle down to that group of people. Right? Eso When we think about this idea of voting, I think of voting always as the tip of the spear of my citizenship. Um, and I’m active in my daughter’s school. I’m active in so many different areas, but I’m also very privileged to be that active. I know there are people who are just sort of struggling, struggling, struggling hard, whether it’s connected with incarceration or poverty or mental illness. They’re not homeowners. So housing affordability becomes a big issue. And for African Americans were disproportionately overrepresented in all, uh, bad social economic indicators. And we’re underrepresented and all the good ones, right? And some of those are the good ones are things you’re connected to in terms of great law. Firms have been elected official and and been an ambassador. So all these different things. So how can we extend and amplify that notion of citizenship to the millions of Americans who feel left out of that, especially black folks? Visa vee voting?

[0:18:03 Ron] You know, you don’t ask you don’t ask one answer, quest. Look, there’s so much in that. But I would say one, Um, the challenge we have is to make a Zai like to say, I think I’m sure I appropriated this from someone else. The dividends of democracy, scientific participation become more difficult for people, some people to define, the further away you get from that first act and what I mean by in the sixties, when we didn’t have the right to vote and we had to fight for it. When we got it, we saw some immediate dividends. We were all of a sudden ableto elect calls. Those are Maynard Jackson’s are are you know, others that we hadn’t before, and we were able to see the difference in what that made in policing and education and access to jobs and, you know, on the hills of these very courageous and important court decisions, you had a president that I don’t think it’s enough credit. And Linda Johnson that passed the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, fair housing, you know, there was an explosive amount of progressive legislation that people could point to and say, Man, this was worth it. Well, now nobody is keeping you from vote even when everything else we’ve said, If you want to vote, you can vote. You can offer your but you go register, you take your driver’s license. But now we’re a little more removed from that. And now we are not as we’re not as as as passionate about education, about upward mobility because our numbers have inverted, as you’ve said. But but what we have to do a better job of is articulating the people. One of the reasons you get such a close application of justice, like many of us, thought we fell into Briana Taylor case and we may see in George Floyd is because you don’t vote. And because you allow legislators to pass laws like these stand your ground laws, you make City Council. You allow City Council people and legislators to become disproportionately influenced by the police unions who always endorse candidates that Onley Neil that the altar, saying I will you know, back law and order, and put that above any concerns about the application of justice. You have laws that make it almost impossible to get justice. But you mean you started out, um, Dr J talking about your conversation with Jim Clyburn in Ferguson. And what I can tell you, though, is you were both right. For all the reasons you articulated, those people didn’t vote. But within four years of that, Ferguson’s a city that has almost a 70% African American population, they went to the polls. They now have not their first African American mayor, their first woman mayor. They have a much more representative policing unit, and they have lowered the temperature and created ah much healthier environment to resolve some of those very difficult issues. And you know, whether it’s not me, whether it’s killer Mike or some of these other rap artists that are speaking to our communities in a way they wouldn’t listen to, frankly, me or you is You know, people have to understand you are just voting for the president you’re voting for who’s gonna be on that school board. You’re voting for who’s gonna be the district attorney and had the courage to bring charges against these police chiefs. You’re gonna vote for the mayor and city councils that are gonna make sure you have, ah, police department that looks like your communities and so one I would say it’s incumbent on us to draw a very clear line between what some of our communities who feel that their vote doesn’t make a difference. We have to show them that even though they may not have the education, the employment status, any of those other tools, they still have the most powerful to Latin American can have. And that’s the right to vote and that that boat can manifest itself and stops in the change.

[0:22:42 Peniel] Now when we think about this right to vote in a lot of ways, the narrative we tell about the civil rights movement is that we won that for all people, especially black folks. But it’s for all people with the V R A and the constant VR extensions. Um, when you think about American democracy, why are we still struggling? Over 50 years after the Voting Rights Act? And 150 years after the ratification of the 15th Amendment in 18 70 that gave black male suffrage, white women got the right to vote in 1920 most African American women in 1965 August 6th with Lyndon Johnson’s signing of the Voting Rights Act. Why are we still struggling in this democracy for the right to vote? And why? Why is there such active voter suppression? I think it’s really, uh, remarkable that this is happening in 2020 in such a blatant way, whether it’s Governor Abbott, President Trump, the GOP, the Republican Party. Why is this allowed? And people have talked about. Is there a kind of legislation where we could end this once and for all? I know people have talked about a John Ah John R. Lewis National Voting Rights Act that Congress could pass, but I also fear what the courts might think of a new John R. Lewis voting rights

[0:24:03 Ron] that one way you saw that all of that and people may be frustrated with me. It happens because we don’t vote. And the reality is power belongs to those who will pick it up and use it. And the sad reality of the fact that even at best, even in a year in which Americans excited about the election of a young and dynamic and hopeful Barack Obama, only 60 just a little above 60% of us went to the bows. That meant 40% of us didn’t even care enough to go. And the one way I tell people is that Look, if nothing else, you can’t get a better return on your investment than voting because you go from the president election, which we voted 60% you goto gubernatorial election that will drop down by 30%. The sad reality. We have elections for city councils and mayors and local officials in which 15% of us may go to the polls. If you’re one of that 15% that means you get in 85% return on your investment. Now there are people I know we we have talked a lot about. You know, we’re basically having discussion about values voters, and I’m gonna try to not make it part. But everything good I’ve talked about about values, about equity, voting rights, civil rights, the right to education, right, the housing, the right to marry. There are people who are economic voters, and what they mostly care about is the distribution of wealth. And what they have found is that the fewer value voters there are, the more likely they are to succeed and then have the ability instead of investing in schools and education and instruments. Infrastructure come in is President Trump did and say Wow, Barack Obama se this country from financial ruin, pull it back from the brink of recession. God, the economy going here is several trillion trillion dollars. I’m going to redistribute again to the wealthiest of Americans who don’t need help at the expense of the bottom few. That was a ridiculously distressing number in the paper the of the day that I think if I and you would know, I think it said the 56 wealthiest people in America are worth mawr than the bottom 165 million. Well, they like it that way. And you know what? For all of the reasons, the excuses we make not to vote when you don’t vote, you vest them with the power. And so what we have seen in a much more naked fashion led by President Trump, Governor Abbott and others is a desire to hold on to that power because they know if we vote if we have unfettered access to the polls, we’re gonna vote to say, Look, we don’t have a problem with the creation of wealth, but we think that that should be a dream for everybody. It should be a dream for the working family, the first generation family going to college, the first generation immigrants, the way it’s always been. Nobody supports. Nobody wants law and order in our communities more than poor and black and Hispanic families. But we want that to be accountable. We don’t want that to be. It manifested in a way that the justice that’s made it out is different, based on the color of your sin of your skin and your wealth. But the only way these folks get away with that is frankly, because we don’t vote. And, yes, would it be great toe have, ah, wonderful capstone on John Lewis’s marvelously courageous life to pass a renewed Voting Rights Act? I tell people all the time, and I can say this when somebody who’s done from all if you want to scare the pants off every elected official in America, go and vote and let them read that we didn’t just have the 60% turnout, we had an 80% turnout and then you keep that fire and you go back to the polls and vote for governors. You don’t need a voting rights of anything else. If you will do simply with Joe Biden with Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, Kamala Harris or begging you to do have a plan, get your act together and get out and get to the polls and vote now, I promise you, if we had a 70% change, I mean, if we had a 70% turnout in this election, it would send shockwaves through Washington. And we would see it in the type of legislation and laws that are passed from Washington to Austin. The City Hall.

[0:28:57 Peniel] All right, I want to talk about what if there is that 70% turnout? Um, and hopefully there’s no violence on Election Day. But what about the prospects of this president saying that he’s not going to leave office and that, um, he’s already suggested multiple times that the election will be fraudulent, especially mail mail in ballots that seem, uh, Republicans seem to consider will be overwhelmingly democratic? Um, What? What do you think about

[0:29:33 Ron] it? Percent I’m gonna be I’m gonna be arrogant enough confident of to say If there is a 70% turnout, there will be nothing to contest, he will be voted out of office and perhaps the biggest margin in American history. Secondly, he doesn’t have anything to say about whether he comes or goes, he believed. If nothing else, we know by his pattern and practice. Donald Trump’s a bully and Donald Trump always threatens. This is the same guy that told us he had secret tapes on Comey. He’s got this and you call BS on him. I don’t I used to use the analogy, and I stopped because my daughter’s reminded us at the end of the day The Wizard of Oz. As we said, he was a very good man. He was just a bad wizard. But you know, But Trump, when you pull the curtain behind, you know he’s just a no overweight guy and orange makeup making a bunch of threats, and I just I don’t want people worried about the mechanics of how you get him out. You go vote him out, making unequivocal vote that you want our politicians to respect all of our citizens, whether they voted for us or not, that we wanted America that is constantly moving to fulfill that dream in our Constitution. that we are all in thank created equally and have the right to the same destiny that we wanna always be moving toward that prophecy of Dr King that the moral arc of the universe bends toward justice. You do that and I promise you Donald Trump will take care of himself. He will sneak out of Washington with his tail between his legs. But you should know you are right. This is not gonna be easy. I mean, as we’ve seen from the plot against the governor of Michigan, to the president’s very, you know, we stop saying dog whistle now saying using a bullhorn to appeal to these white terrorist organizations, which is what they are. We need to stop calling them militia. These air terrorists, Yes. And you know, you know, and I have you know, Dr Joseph, you’re right. You and I are in the upper echelon of Americans by any slice, whether it’s African Americans or 1%. But I love reminding my friends is still go. Well, you don’t think Trump’s races. You don’t think we do violence, and I remind them all of those young girls blown up in that church and firming him were by. We call Birmingham Alabama bomb, bombing him for a reason. And all of that violence was to keep people of color from voting. This is not new. This is not fictional. It’s riel. But we have. The resource is we have the tools. We have the wherewithal to make sure that you can get to the polls, particularly if you vote early. If you’re over 65 take advantage of the ability to vote absentee. The vote and it will be worth it, even if it takes a few years to manifest itself.

[0:32:55 Peniel] Well, I want to talk about the dividends that you’re talking about, because what can we do to get young people excited about the dividends of voting? I know black lives matter has been really, really focused on voting as well, and this is a movement that has a very specific policy agenda around education, immigration reform, wealth, inequality, income inequality, segregation, the whole works that I’ve read and I’ve taught ah, movement for black lives. And certainly groups like Legal Defense Fund and so many important civil rights organizations have connected with the movement for black lives. What can we do to show young people who’ve been energized in the streets of all colors, but especially students, young people of color. Because, remember, in 2012, black voter turnout was 66% and it was the first time in American history that the black voter turnout was MAWR. Then the white voter turnout. White voter turnout was 64% for Barack Obama’s second election, and black turnout was 66% led by black women. And then Shelby happened, and our voter turnout went down in 2016. And there was different states like Ohio and Florida that President Obama had one twice that really curtailed early voting. They curtailed the ability of black churches and black people to coalesce and and go to the polls. Well,

[0:34:31 Ron] it’s important to note, because I’m not gonna let him all day we did in the State of Texas early voting. We used to have what we call we started. I’m not taking credit when I ran for mayor of Dallas in 1994 At least in Dallas County, we’re gonna take credit for, for for creating what we called Super Sunday that we use that first Sunday of early voting to get all of our people mobilized, its spread around the state and you’re right in 2010 again after redistricting. What did taxes do? They took away that last Sunday, so you have that ability to do it. But I want to go back to your question When you asked. The easiest way to get people motivated is to remind them of their success was by college basketball. I was a very, we were told. We both talked about our admiration for Dr J Record. Fortunately, because I was such a average basketball player, I had to have good grades go to school. But my high school coach when we were going bad, used to say, Look, guys, stop trying to be heroes. We gotta just get points on the board. Let’s see the ball go through the who. But when I talk to young people, I looked at them and not just black lives matter. You will like that Barack Obama. Everybody, everybody. You know, we quickly want to forget. Most people gave Barack then Senator Obama’s zero chance against the machine of the Clintons, but it was young people, college kids who slept in their cars, who for the first time, organized on Facebook and social media in a way that all US old school politicians that no and totally swamped the Democratic primary in a way that was unforeseen and elected. Barack Obama. When we talk about the power of the courts, I still believe it is young people who challenged their parents about their fear of marriage, equality that did in a period of 10 years, what it took us 40 years to do toe have marriage equality, become the law of the land. I’m convinced that’s because young people challenged their parents. And why do you care? How does this affect your life? It is young people that have always agitated for social change and, you know, not remind them when we were marching for the rights of those garbage workers. Andi John Louis It wasn’t just John Lewis that was a young student. C. T. Vivian was a young man. Martin Luther King was a young man. Rosa Parks. Social revolutions have never been led by 65 year old men sitting comfortably in Their law is trying to make more about retirement than change. It’s always been advocated by young folks who were willing to question authority and say, This is not right much the way those fabulous young women who organized black lives matter did. So you have the power. You have the history, you’ve done it before. You can do it again. You just have to state. Of course,

[0:37:56 Peniel] now, when you think about the Democratic Party and racial diversity, now that we have the first black vice presidential nominee and Kamila Harris, do you think the country is soon going to be ready? Uh, for a first female president? And could that first female president could be, if we do get a vice president, Kamala Harris, a black woman,

[0:38:21 Ron] you know that is sitting there thinking about what your rings gonna look like when you still got two more games to play in the championship, you know, I mean, I love sports analogies, but I never will forget that Game six between the San Antonio Spurs and the Miami Heat. And they were, and they brought out the trophy. It was in the corner, and that ball bounced the wrong way and Boss bounced out to the corner. And instead of the Spurs putting on the ring, you know Ray Allen got a long rebound and hit a shot that only he could. He could and things changed. Look, if you are excited about that prospect of a first woman, the first African American woman Asian American, Indian, American woman, the most important thing we can do is not take our eye off the prize. This election begins next Monday in Texas. Go to the polls and vote, and I and I don’t want to presume all of our listeners or Democrats. But if you are, ah, voter, A values voter who cares about justice, who wants toe return to, um, or Sane and Civil America, then I would say, go to the polls and both make that reality. All I know is Kamala Harris will have a much better chance to become President Harris if she’s sitting in the vice president’s office. But if we dropped the ball now, we will be setting ourselves back a generation, not just because of what will happen politically, but as afraid as many of us are because how the court will tilt to the right, with President Trump rushing to confirm a replacement for Ruth Bader Ginsburg if he has, If he has another four years, he will reshape the court in a way that’s going to impact the lives of our kids and potentially our grandkids for another 40 50 years.

[0:40:33 Peniel] So my final question Ambassador Kirk is, um, do you feel hopeful at this time? You know, you talked about the obviously the white supremacist plot toe Overthrow and Thio kidnapped the governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer. We saw the first presidential debate was a disaster. But in the vice presidential debate, vice President Mike Pence said he didn’t believe their systemic racism. We’ve seen like you said, no more dog whistles about racism, but really bullhorns. The country is so, so hyper partisan, divided where we were living in dual sets of reality, where some people want a a multiracial, multicultural democracy and other people. I want something that’s starkly, starkly different, dramatically different. That takes us way back toe period in time where black people were not considered citizens. Um, how are you feeling about our democracy and about civic activism and just the future of this republic?

[0:41:38 Ron] We’ll get one to thank you for having me and if any of your list for having run them all. Thank you so much for joining us with his podcast. But what I would say, I am always an optimist. I am always. I always just have to believe that there’s gonna be more light around the corner I’ve seen in my life. But I’m enough of a realist to understand, because I like to say, if you believe in that prophecy of Dr King’s, that the moral arc of the universe been slowly but it been toward justice. Inherent in that is an understanding. Somebody is trying to bend that thing the other way. It’s not bending itself. So one, whether it’s Dr King or like to say whether it’s in, you know, And I know I would hope they’re our listeners of all faiths and religion. But in in every every religion I know there is some concept and understanding and an expression that the Children of light have to be as organized as the Children of darkness. Are you know, Kurt Vonnegut said, which I like better. The angels have to be better organized than the Mafia. But if people ask me why I’m optimistic this in the case, we don’t have to go back to when I was a kid in the sixties really like that Barack Obama president just 12 years ago. That’s not ancient history. Was that a good America? Was that in America in which mawr of us, and expressed the belief in that society that you articulated in which all of us, of every faith, agriculture, have dignity? It absolutely waas. But what we saw in that is just Aziz. We all came together. Those who didn’t believe in that vision didn’t go away. They double down and and as much as we demonstrated, young people demonstrated the ability to use social media for good. We now know social media is also probably the greatest tool that hate groups, militia groups, groups that don’t believe in progress used to come together and we organized. And so, yes, I’m optimistic. Yes, impossible. But it means that we cannot let go of the arc. We have to keep holding on. We have to be willing to stand up and always fight and speak out against injustice against misogyny, you know, against those who would deny people their god given rights because of who they love. And if we believe that there are arm or of us who believe in good, who believe in the value of all we will prevail. But we have to understand Aziz we did when I was a kid. Growing up. No battle stays one. You have to remain vigilant. That’s why you have watch Mitt. That’s why you have to continue the to invest in the education of our kids, to give them that hope to give them that dream, to give them that better life they want. So did they have that up with mobility? And this becomes a natural and easier for them to do so. And I will never yield on the basic premise. Whatever your economic, social ethnic status, the most powerful to you have to bring about the change you won’t is one to vote and then investing you are and your kids education.

[0:45:20 Peniel] Well, we’re gonna leave it on that, Ambassador Ron Kirk. With this hopeful vigilance, we have to be watch women and watchmen to protect our citizenship rights to protect our democracy, to protect our right to vote and the dividends of democracy are what voting produces Eso I hope everybody goes out and votes votes early, has a voting plan for everyone in their lives. Um, who can vote and to be poll watchers? Man, the phones do everything you can to ensure that this 2020 election provides the biggest Democratic turnout on I mean small D democracy. Democratic turnout in American history. So Ambassador Ron Kirk, thank you so much for joining us. We’ve been having a great conversation with Ron Kirk, whose former mayor of Dallas, from 1995 to 2001 was the U. S trade representative during the Barack Obama administration has over 30 years of expertise in law, in politics, in entrepreneurship and in social and civic activism. And he’s currently ah, senior of counsel in Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher. Is Dallas in Washington, D. C. Offices. Thank you, Ambassador Kirk, for joining us.

[0:46:43 Ron] Thank you, Dr Jane. I’ve got to say, we are so blessed to have you at the University of Texas, and I know I fed a lot, but on I’m not saying this to add another are terrific. The most important thing relative to this conversation. I was Texas secretary of state in 1994 appointed by Governor and Richards, and I have to remind everyone listening again. By the time you hear this, the election will be underway. November 3rd is not election day. It is the end of Election Day. If you can hear us, you’re in the state of Texas. Please take advantage of the opportunity to go and vote. And God forbid, if you are challenge, just know your rights. No one other than that precinct judge can challenge your right to vote. So I don’t care if there are people there in suits or guns. They have no ability to stop you from voting. So know your rights, have a plan and make sure you’re going vote.

[0:47:45 Peniel] That’s it. We’ll end on that note. Vote Tuesday, October 13th. This is when this is coming out. And so so vote. Please vote and exercise your Democratic rights. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.