Ep. 57 – Reimagining Public Safety in Austin and America: A Conversation with Sukyi McMahon

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. We’re proud to welcome Sukyi McMahon, who’s the strategy director of the Austin Justice Coalition. She provides leadership for the criminal justice policy team. Inspired by an activist father, Suki began her work as a human rights activist with refuse and resist in 1999 and works full time to reimagine and transform safety and justice in our community. On a national scale, Suki works for Columbia University Justice Lab. As the manager of the Square Wind Projects Roundtable on the future of Justice policy, she runs a Siris of public Livestream forums, which I’ve attended that bring together a cross section of leaders, community members, academics and other experts to spark transformational thinking about what we can expect for our communities in our justice system. She has a B A in literature from Texas Tech University and an M A in literature from Texas State University, and it’s really one of the most well known activists right here in Austin and nationally. So Suki McMahon. Thank you. On welcome.

[0:01:23 Sukyi] Yeah. Thank you. I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[0:01:27 Peniel] Well, I wanna have a conversation about public safety, um, justice this year of racial and political reckoning. And what can we do in a policy sense? Both right here in Austin and nationally, Thio achieve racial justice and equity. So I’d start by saying, You know what? What is the Austin Justice Coalitions? Um, perspective on what’s been happening this year. I know you’ve been in this space for many years, but what is A. J. C s perspective and advocacies their hopes? And how does that align with the Austin City Council’s recent decision regarding a P D funding? Um ah, 5% reduction, But certainly certain efforts to invest in mental health invest in a non lethal first responders.

[0:02:18 Sukyi] Yeah, that’s right. So it has been a tumultuous year, to say the least. Ah, lot of what’s been happening on the national scale in terms of the uprising for racial justice. What happened with George Floyd and Briana Taylor has been mirrored locally here. A swell. We had the shooting death of Michael Ramos by the hands of a P D officers, and we were actively looking at that and just the injustice of this man killing and the immediate moves by a P. D. To justify that killing. And so we started that believe that happened in March. So we have very much been having our finger on the pulse of this here in Austin before our own protests started here. And I sense that the community as this happened nationally and they saw these elements of this happening here in Austin just came on board in a huge way. So many people were awakened to the injustices that black people face in their communities. Suddenly, the statistics and the numbers started toe bring true and to make sense. And you know, the reports that a P D puts out that a. J C ourselves look Thio as our own data and evidence regarding racial injustice in the areas and policing that are reflective of that, um started Thio become so apparent to everyone else to it was this terribly glorious moment of reckoning. Um and we found ourselves taking this up with the council and they were on board, um, to a large degree in the communication between ourselves between the community and the council was exponential, more so than in other years, and you mentioned the moves that they did. Thio look closely at the police budget and you’re right. They did unanimously vote to move $20 million from a PDS budget and fund alternative forms of public safety. You know, they’re also looking to shift other functions from a P D as well, such as the 911 call center, to make sure that calls were directed to the right agency for so long. So many different calls were met with the police response, and that’s because the police were entering the phone.

[0:05:05 Peniel] Let me let me ask a question here when it comes to the details of that 20 million, let’s start with the 20 million even before talking about the 9 11 call center, there’s been so much misinformation about that and this this call for de funding the police, which I understand what it means. I’ve been pushing reimagining public safety just because you don’t get as much pushback and people can sort of think about that, uh, in a different way. But what does that $20 million reduction mean for all of our public safety? Because there’s been a lot of misinformation and people are utilizing and politicizing that. In a way that’s very, very negative. And you even see the recall. Adler buttons you signs, you see attacks on the City Council. What does that actually mean? That $20 million reduction. And how does that? How does that actually make us safer? Potentially in the future?

[0:06:01 Sukyi] Yeah, you know, the recall other that’s just been ongoing since he came on board. But the 20 million does not mean a reduction in current policing levels. They have the exact same amount of police officers that they did six months ago. So there wasn’t a reduction. Um, in that element of safety, although, again, the fearmongering that you’re seeing from our governor and from Police Union would lead you to believe that Austin is a, ah, wild Western, you know, just a terrible space to be. And I’m sure you’ve heard or seen through the billboards that they place on both sides of my 35 in and out of Boston, saying Austin has defended its police officers. You may not get a police response if you have an emergency, which is simply blatantly untrue, and, um, it’s just it’s reckless toe actually say that people need to know that if they have an emergency, they can’t pick up the phone, they should get a response. But there has always been issues with a PDS response time, you know, So don’t be led to believe that that’s an issue with the current staffing levels at a p D. But the the 20 million you know, for instance, when you ask how that’s going to increase our safety, um, you know so much. A good chunk of that is going toe mental health first responders, as you mentioned. And so that means that you would get a a medical response for a medical emergency and so very often and so very often, when there is a police response, it often resulted in violence in death. Um, particularly when it came thio black off tonight to are in crisis, or maybe even not even in crisis.

[0:08:03 Peniel] And why? Why is that so Why? Why did so many times? Because I’ve seen the videos to and anecdotally, and I know the data tells us this. Black people in mental health crisis were often, um, shot and killed by the police whether they were armed or unarmed, but obviously a mental health crisis. Why does that happen disproportionately To black communities and communities of color,

[0:08:26 Sukyi] policing happens disproportionately to people of color and regardless of the situation. But even the results are worse when you do have the addition of some type of a crisis. Um, you know, we know that they don’t respond. Well, I I don’t know if you recall back when Bree on King was arrested and the police officer told her that white people are afraid of black people because of our violent tendencies, and that was so indicative of the culture at a P D. And so when we get these results of deaths by the hands of police officers for people who just need help, that’s it rings true that that’s just the way that they come out to the call to believe. He said that when I get a call Thio one of these, uh, when there are black people involved that I don’t want to misquote. But he he said something along the lines of I know what’s going to get ugly, and that’s before they get there. So that’s that’s just a dangerous mentality. And, uh, that’s the reason that when our friends are in crisis, we go. We go when we try to help as much as we can. We do what we can for our friends outside of policing, until that changes until that narrative changes. So this mental health first response is a big deal, especially to our community. But toe Austin at large. People should feel that if your family member or your friend is in crisis, that the person coming to your door will not have a gun, necessarily.

[0:10:07 Peniel] And why is it important this, this reorganization, this reshuffling of Let’s get to what you were talking about earlier? The 9 11, The 911 call center reminds me of flavor flavor and 911 is a joke from Public Enemy when I was growing up. But why is it important to take 911 out of a P D? And put it in an independent or or separate area? What? Why is that important?

[0:10:34 Sukyi] Well, it’s just a matter of how the calls will be funneled. Honestly, if you have someone who is independent or is in police and are thinking about safety rather than the way a P. D. Is kind of accepting these calls and thinking about them. I think it’s just a different lens on these calls. That is, ah, more objective. And I think that that’s important as well. I think it’s still important to listen to the calls, and you know, if there are elements that require police response and yes, but to date so many of the calls get a police response. And e think that the need for these first responders and mental health is going to help with that. And, you know, one of the things we’ve been working on that City Council approved last December, I believe, was 1/4 option when you call 911 So you know, typically it’s a P D fire m s. The fourth option should be mental health response and just imagine having that option and how many people would use that option. That’s still not something that they put into practice yet, but maybe with a different kind of person taking those calls maybe with a different type of management there would be more open to that.

[0:11:56 Peniel] And part of this budget that was approved by the City Council creates a reimagined safety fund to divert almost 50 million from a P D towards alternative forms of public safety and community support. Um, where is that money going to go primarily? When we think about that money, that is reimagining safety reimagining safety fund.

[0:12:21 Sukyi] Well, there are numerous things that the council members have put up for where those funds could go. Um, there are They have kind of a bucket list, but in general, the I can’t I don’t have that in front of me right now, eh? So I am not going to be able to speak specifically. Well, I I do believe that one of the options that they have on their one of the things I’d like toe create is the Office of Violence. Prevention on bat would be brand new. Uh, there are calls for, um family shelters and other protective services. Eso Yeah, again there. The budget that they laid out just a few months ago was a catch. All of all the things that these council members have his top priorities for new forms of public safety.

[0:13:18 Peniel] And when you think about moving forward in terms of in future years, because what was the disparity. I know a J. C. Was talking about removing, I think, Was it 100 million from a P D budget? Or was it a different number? Because you would know And what was the disparity? What was left on the table from a G A. J C. Has their own reimagining public safety proposal. What was the difference between A. J. C s Austin Justice Coalition’s proposal and what the City Council adopted,

[0:13:49 Sukyi] right? Well, you know, we were pushing for 100 million, and, as you know, 20 million was pulled from a PDS budget in large. Part of that was from canceling the cadet classes for next year. Eso yeah, there was. There’s a big gap there, but I still do. You see the benefit on the positivity of the reimagining exercise that they’re going to be doing. And there’s also a task force right now that’s looking at, um, you know, the areas that they’re trying thio, decouple and just looking at the the feasibility of all of these things. So I think there’s another 130 million that that is possibly on the table is well, so I’m not going to ignore that But right now, in the for immediate purposes of repurpose ing money, it’s around 20 million

[0:14:48 Peniel] when we think about the national election. 2021 of the things we saw even in this last presidential debate is this idea of the Democrats want to defund the police? The Democratic Party is in the hands of left wing antifa BLM activists, black lives, matter activists. How do you do you think that one That’s that’s effective because we’ve seen the polling data. And in June and July there was much more at least white support for black lives matter, Um, and and the way in which this this phrase defund the police that activists have used and we understand what they mean. And they’re talking about investment in communities of color and stop the over investment and policing and systems of punishment. But do you think it Zwart king against social justice activism and racial justice activism? The phrase defund the police but also the smearing this’ll on order campaign that police unions are part of as well. So do you think it’s working against, because I think it’s extraordinary that we do have a president who is a white supremacist in the White House who’s been endorsed by the largest police union in the United States, New York, N. Y. P. D s Fraternal Fraternal Order of Police and others have endorsed him. So do you think it’s working? And if it’s working, what can we do to push back? Because at the end of the day, you we are going to need elected officials who are courageous enough, even if the people have these demands to reimagine public safety in ways that are much more far reaching than what we’ve seen in 2020.

[0:16:28 Sukyi] Yeah, there’s a amount of bravery and risk involved with public, um, with candidates, Onda incumbents picking up the term defund. And, you know, this is something that, even in activist circles, that we talked about, Was it the wrong term? Is there another spin that we could put on it? But ultimately, you know, I’m e feel like more that it’s ah, an educational moment for the public at large. Um, to understand why that word and why not something softer? It’s a It’s a pretty specific word. Um, and I’m not. I’m not going toe to shirk it because, yeah, it conjures a certain image that I don’t think is incorrect when we’re talking about defunding the police. I think that, I guess, maybe more so. If you are an activist circles, you do see that as a de funding of the ways in which racism has been propped up historically. And if we take a really close look at policing, not even a close look. But if you look at policing and recognize that you know its origins, as you obviously know are based in slave catching and how quickly the jails filled with black bodies in the 18 fifties and sixties like, we understand what the purpose has been, how we’ve, um endorsed that and Condoned that have been complicit in all of that. So I think it’s just something to really reckon with. This is the your reckoning. Let’s look at policing, talk about the harms that it’s done and how we’ve just poured money into that into retribution and punitive excess and how we just been violently exceptional when it comes thio people of color, especially black people in our country and to me when I see that the solution to that is to reduced and to repurpose and to focus on community safety in different ways. So I don’t know. I encourage people not to be afraid of that term. Maybe it’s just it needs to be household term. It needs to be commonly said, rather than kind of brush under the rug.

[0:19:17 Peniel] Now, when we think about this idea of training police and you know Vice presidential former vice president and presidential candidate Joe Biden has talked about billions of dollars more in training. How effective can that be when we have so many police officers who are online who are connected to We know we have reports documented of police officers connected to white supremacist groups, racial terrorist groups. We have Department of Justice reports with police officers in Ferguson and other places, um saying overtly racist things through social media, email chat boards. We’ve got the Fraternal Order of Police, um, proudly endorsing Donald Trump, who’s an unapologetic white supremacist who’s telling white supremacists to stand by to wreak havoc and promote violence this election season. How in the world if we have 18,000 police departments, 800,000 law enforcement officers who are connected to the system of racism, systemic racism, white supremacy, riel, racial hatred and violence and have immunity from any kind of prosecution. How in the world can this ever be fixed? You know, like how How How can it be fixed when you have the same people you’re trying to transform? Or the system has legal, uh, rights to kill to kill you. How can it be? How can it be fixed? And especially when both parties, um really don’t want to admit that they’re sisters A systemic problem, uh, in law enforcement and the criminal justice system at large.

[0:21:08 Sukyi] Right? And those are all valid points and, you know, a J. C. For years, that was what we did was we looked at training at a P d de escalation, training, implicit bias training. And we’re a part of their makeup and roll out and all of that. And, you know, in the last year, we have stepped away from that because we recognize that to a certain degree, you’re not going Thio train yourself out of racism. You know, we’ve even after all of that work that we did in these last years to get that kind of training implemented, you know, late last year, there was the big shakedown in the at the highest levels of a P D. Involving racism, where you had a noces stint, chief who who resigned. But just after it got out that he was using the n word all day, you know, and that it was. It was just widely accepted upon the fifth floor that that’s just the way he waas and, you know, that launched this whole investigation into racism and FPD, which in many ways has been, um, sidelined by co vid. But you know, there are some real issues with racism at a P D and even the training. You know, we know that there were cadets to or complaining and who stepped out of the academy because of issues of homophobia and racism. There’s an ongoing training audit that’s happening well. Ah, community evaluation of the training and these issues abound in their feedback as well. So yeah, there’s a sense that the training is a real issue and, um, you know, there there’s understand that you cannot change that police culture unless you change fundamentally. How there acting interacting with the public. So it z in this moment where we’re reimagining justice and narrowing the scope of the police and deciding what their purpose is. They still have to be accountable if they’re going. Thio serve a purpose in what we deem as public safety like their purview of it. Then to say, I still think that there needs to be new guidelines, whole new make up for their training if they’re if they’re to continue. And I feel like that’s the course that were on, um that coincides with the reimagining process that, um, that needs to continue can’t It’s not something that can be overlooked. And I don’t think that there are any plans toe overlook all of the issues that are going on with their training. Um, so I Maybe the answer is, ah, complete overhaul. Um, and you know, I think that that’s something that’s being worked on, but it is. It is a process of trial and error that is for sure, toe rethink something that is so entrenched and to move an entire group of people who are employed and motivated to be employed in that area, to act totally differently and to have a different mindset. I think that maybe there’s a younger generation that would be up for it. I feel like a lot of these millennials air not playing around. And, you know, racial justice is something that they are invested in. I think they’re tired off the ship of the older generations and are wanting to be a part of that solution as well. So, um, maybe they’re they’re the answer. I’m not sure it puts a lot of pressure on them.

[0:25:08 Peniel] What do you think about these conversations about both prison abolition, but even police abolition? And I’ve heard of different people in red, different arguments of saying things like police should not be the ones um, giving motorists, uh, traffic violations. Police aren’t. Aren’t the people who are supposed to be giving you jaywalking violations? All all very interesting. Um, areas of reimagining. But what do you say to that? And certainly this year, Angela Davis has probably gotten the most attention. She’s had, um, in national circles since the late sixties early seventies. Andi, She’s been a prison abolitionist for decades in terms of yes, re imagining prisons, but really ending what we call prisons and for even people who need a time out from society having just a whole different institutional structural way of rehabilitation or transformation. So what do you think about that? This idea of abolition, just whether it’s law enforcement or just prisons? Or how does how does that relate to this conversation?

[0:26:18 Sukyi] I think it’s possible. I don’t think it’s gonna happen tomorrow, Um, which is why I think that there’s still a lot of work to be done. Thio begin the process of greatly reducing what the police are responsible for, as you mentioned traffic tickets and getting, um, cars off of the highway that are broken down like there are a lot of things that they just don’t need to be doing. Andi, I think that that would greatly reduce what they what they’re responsible for and accountable for, um, I don’t know. I’ve been thinking about the least that we would need them for, um, and even if it is responding thio of violent crime, usually it’s already happened. And the question is, what do we do with the folks who have caused this great harm? And in that sense of abolition, probably it’s not, you know, putting them in prisons. Probably It is trying Thio figure out what justice looks like in this every imagining process. Does that look like, um, looking at that person’s history? You know what, What, in their lives brought them to this place. So, yeah, there’s a lot that can be done there, but yeah, I’m I’m every day I think about why do we need police? And that’s there’s Ah, there’s a question mark there for me, but well, I mean, what do you think? Do you think that if something terrible happens and I need to pick up the phone to report it? Yeah, is the police the best response for that? At that point? I

[0:28:12 Peniel] think if you’re black, the answer is no. But I think that there are other people who feel that the police will will come and and treat me as if I’m innocent and are really looking to help me and aid me. And so in that context, they feel very safe and secure calling the police. But I think if you’re black, I would say no and including if you have somebody who’s in mental distress, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t call the police because as somebody who grew up in New York City, you’re right. When violence happens, it happens very quickly, 99.9% of the time. The cops were not there, and there’s really nothing anybody can do afterwards. It’s really about picking up the pieces. So and when you’re black, if you’re a victim of violence, you have a nice chance of police coming on the scene and committing an act of violence that might even result in your death. And you’re the victim of violence. So I just think that I think in New York City it’s interesting. Having grown up black in segregated Southside Jamaica, Queens in parts of Brooklyn, we knew not to call the cops. So a lot of what the narratives and I see where people are like I can’t believe it. I just can’t believe they did this to me. I’m always usually I feel very empathetic, but I’m also like, Wow, this is a much different experience than I have. Like we knew the cops were not your friend. And you never call the cops right? Because, like you said that the incident would be over. So you just have to pick up the pieces and look for justice for yourself and not even a vigilante but just come to terms with whatever happened, the cops weren’t going to save you or protect you. But certainly it would be interesting to think about a world where they did. This is a great Segway. I want to talk to you about the square one project, cause you’re doing this on a national scale assed part of Columbia University’s justice lab. What is the Square one project? I’ve seen some of the stuff you’ve done. You’ve brought in multiple multiple stakeholders, and I want you to talk to us about what it is. What do you hope to accomplish through the square one project? Cause I think you’re one of the few very well known both grassroots leaders right here in Austin. But you also have a national profile to in that sense. So what is the Square one project and what do you What are you hoping to accomplish through that?

[0:30:27 Sukyi] Yeah, so, yeah, I’d love to talk about the square one project. I just wanted to say one final thing about the purpose of policing. You just mentioned that you know, you have a different perspective when you’re in black and I can only imagine what It’s like if you’re white and you know that they’re coming to help And maybe if if that was the thing for everyone, than we would all, you know, feel more comfortable with that. But, I mean, I could see calling them if there is something actively going on. But not maybe not after. I don’t know that they’re the right response. Anyways. The the Square One project is, as you said, it’s a national effort. A national initiative based out of the Columbia University Justice Lab. And the premise of the Square One project is knowing what we know about the justice system and its ties to racism and poverty. Knowing all of that what we know today, if we were to start from square one, what would we do differently? How would we, um, end our reliance on policing and incarceration? Andi, move towards something new. So our charge is to develop a new vision of safety to provide new leadership. Um, in regard to that and over the course of these last three years that we have been active, we have convened, um, a couple of 100 people around the country and these round tables off which I am a manager, the manager and, uh, the roundtables have followed somewhat of a story arc. They’re not. No, two of them are the same. You know, we began. We always team with a HP CEO HBCU or a black centered, uh, institution. So we started out with a history of reckoning. Um, history of racial and economic inequality, a za first part of our story. And then we went into criminalization and peanut of excess and then into violence. Most recently, I just finished a round table virtually on the social contract, and that was the pivot for us. We talked a lot about the issues of racism and criminalization and a peanut of excess and violence, but we were able to start talking about aspirations for a new social contract. Um, and there were many Austinites that were in that round table, and it was meant to take place here in Austin. But obviously that was in April. So we had Thio totally scrapped that and adjust to the new reality. And so But we had several Austinites represented at this round table. And then finally, in the spring of 2021 we’ll have our final round table on the values of justice. So the story arc. Here is something that we’re hoping Thio in the next phase of our project, to somewhat reproduce toe better, um, package. So that hopefully as it’s being consumed by organizations and different cities, that there’s kind of a road map for them to have these discussions on, ranging from racism all the way to the values of the new values of the justice system. Um, with the hope of really engaging the public and leaders in a narrative change around what justice is and toe hopefully, illicit policy changes the ways in which communities air building power and their own resiliency, um, and just picturing prosperity and their in their communities and for themselves. Um, it is an ambitious task, but one that we’ve been undertaking and I’m hoping will pay off very, very well in the in the coming years as well, because it’s just the time right now. If they were combating a narrative on the other side that is very strong and very entrenched in the way we look at the world in terms of, um, meeting violence with violence, especially as a form of punishment rather than restoration and rehabilitation. So, um, that is our hope. That’s why we have engaged so many people from such wide multi disciplinary background eso that there are multiple audiences who are thinking about this and getting this new language.

[0:35:15 Peniel] All right, my my final question is really about Austin just returning back toe. Austin We talked about Mike Ramos. Uh, many people were calling for the Austin police chief to be fired. Austin has a city manager system and our city managers the former Minneapolis city manager Um, you know what? What can be done here to enact really much more progressive on radical change and transformation in terms of the criminal justice system and just really racial equity at the policy level, I think what we’ve seen, especially obviously there’s an election coming. Everyone should vote who’s listening to us. But what can be done? And what is a g J. C hoping to do, you know, picture us talking in 2025? What? What would you have hope to have seen transpired between now and then? Visa vee. Justice reform?

[0:36:14 Sukyi] Yeah, and it zone ongoing task. And it’s a difficult project. I guess A project of liberation for us. You know, we’re looking Chazz has been involved in developing in a group charter amendments around the way our city government is run looking at a strong mayor structure that might work with the City Council, still responsible for approving changes and laws and things like that. And as our as our mayor currently stands a system that could work very well. But policy wise, I think that we will continue to be working even more broadly outside of the criminal justice system because if we reduce policing and we reduced the harms done during interactions with police. But people still can’t afford to live here, and health care is still poor and schools are closing down on the east side, Black people are just going to continue to leave. So we’re broadening our policy areas because there are intersections between criminal justice and those areas as well. Yeah, well, we’ll continue working in C J policy, but we’re also looking at transit laws and affordable housing and recognizing that if you have been directly impacted by the criminal justice system that your quality of life areas are greatly diminished in those areas. So what did the policies that would make someone who has experience with the justice system still be ableto live, Ah, full life where they can contribute and just live. So it’s actually taking Ah ah, broader Look at our systems and how they all engage with one another as well in these next years to make it so that in in the area of town where I live in that I will not be the only black person as faras, I can see you know wherever I am and that Austin is more equitable in terms off again housing and health care and all of those things that would welcome people who look like you and I to our city. So in my in my eyes, a success looks like not 7% of black population in 2025 but in an increase because right now there’s an out migration, and how do we turn that tide? And to me, it’s not just criminal justice. Yes, people want to feel safe, um, safe that when they get pulled over, they’re not gonna have a terrible interaction. But they also want to feel secure and to have consistency and routine in their lives as well. Um, so it’s Ah, it’s a multifaceted policy. Look.

[0:39:24 Peniel] All right, we’ll end it there. That’s a note of hope I hope we’ve been discussing. We’ve been discussing criminal justice reform with Suki McMahon, who’s the strategy director of the Austin Justice Coalition, one of the leading grassroots social justice organizations right here in our own city of Boston. And she’s also the manager of the Square one project for Columbia University’s Justice Lab, which holds a round table on the future of justice policy. They do many, many events. I would suggest people look up the square One project at Columbia University. They bring in a Siris of thought leaders, grassroots organizer’s scholars, academics, policy experts, andan a wide ranging way. They talk about the future of the justice system. Eso Suki McMahon. Thank you for joining us here at race and democracy. I really enjoyed it.

[0:40:16 Sukyi] It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much.

[0:40:19 Peniel] Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.