Ep. 55 – Leadership in a Time of Racial Crisis: A Conversation with Mark Updegrove

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Mhm on today’s podcast, we are very pleased to welcome one of this distinguished historians of presidential history in the United States. My friend Mark K. Updegrove, who’s the president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation in Austin, Texas. He’s the author of four books, including his latest, The Last Republicans, Inside the Extraordinary Relationship between George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush, published in 2017 and as the former director of the LBJ Library. In 2014, Mark hosted the Civil Rights Summit, a historic three day conference around the 50th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, which included a keynote address by President Barack Obama. And it included the participation of Presidents George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, as well as civil rights luminaries including Julian Bond, John Lewis and Andrew Young. The summit garnered international press, including a New York Times profile on Mark titled Chronicler of Presidents, Brings Forward Together So Mark, Welcome to Race and Democracy.

[0:01:30 Mark] What a pleasure to be here, Peniel. Thanks so much for having me.

[0:01:33 Peniel] I want to get right into it because I want to have a conversation with you about leadership. You studied and been a leader of whole institutions and organizations. But you studied presidents your whole life. And we are in a watershed moment in American history right now, where, in addition to facing the challenges of a global pandemic covert 19 we’ve had since May 25th and the tragic death of George Floyd in Minneapolis really cascading demonstrations and protest for racial justice that have really forced us all to take a square look at ourselves and what kind of society we we wanna live in as Americans. So what do you think in terms of the leadership? What What are we looking for in terms of right now both national leadership, but also local leadership In this quest, Thio better perfect our union and make black lives matter black dignity. Citizenship count in a new way,

[0:02:37 Mark] you know. First of all, I want to thank you for your leadership. Peniel, you’ve done a phenomenal job with the center in looking into these issues. But I think that and you and I have talked about this. I think my deep hope is that this watershed moment, this this inflection point this this passionate moment, which has resulted in some change, becomes a reasoned movement that results in systemic reforms that are long overdue in our nation so that we finally fulfill our promise that the most sacred creed of our country, which is to say that all men and women are created equal. Uh, that has long been elusive in our history. And I think this if this movement is managed right that we can make a giant leap toward making that a reality. As you point out, it necessitates not only, ah, social movement that we’re seeing burgeoning as we speak. It also necessitates leaders listening and responding in the right way. I think we have seen the former. We have yet to really manifestly seethe ladder.

[0:03:45 Peniel] And what can we do in the sense of right here in Austin, we have so many different thought leaders who are interested in social justice may be people who don’t necessarily know directly about this issue of black equality and black citizenship, but certainly are interested in making the city more equitable. And the ST Mawr just what can we do right here on the ground in terms of in terms of

[0:04:12 Mark] leadership, make our voices heard in whatever manner we can, I think is most important, I think, for for people like me, white people who have had every advantage in in our society, we need to listen. We need to understand what it is like to be in the shoes of somebody who looks differently from us, and I think it’s up to us to figure out how we can help those who have been marginalized over time. But but one of the things that without question is we all need to vote not only for the president in the fall, but for local officials who make a huge difference. We might not know it, but they make an enormous difference in how our communities operate. We have to ensure that those people subscribe to our beliefs and will be willing to carry out policies that lead toward greater equity in in in this city, in this state and ultimately in our nation.

[0:05:13 Peniel] Now you’ve studied presidential history extensively, what has happened over the last several decades to when we think about political leadership, but also I want to talk about more religious leadership. But I want to talk right now about political leadership because certainly this movement seems to be an outsider in movement rather than an insider out where people on DSO of active citizens are in the lead here. And everyone else is, um, struggling to catch up what’s happened to leadership.

[0:05:46 Mark] You know you’re so right, But no, But but but most moving, most change comes from the outside. It comes from from these large social movements. What you have tow have, though, is a willing leader, somebody who’s willing t to be pushed by that movement into reform. Change comes hard. I have a friend who is font of saying People hate change, and the other thing they hate is when things stay the same. So, uh, but political change comes really hard because so many people are invested in the status quo, and it takes social movements to move the conscience of a nation sometimes and to move the agendas of our leaders. You and I have talked extensively about the civil rights movement of the 19 sixties as being a seminal time. In a perfect example of how a social movement can move a domestic agenda effectively. You’re you’re one of the preeminent scholars in that area. So that provides an example of what I hope we see in the next, uh, in the next years in our country to capitalize on the on the movement of foot in America today.

[0:07:07 Peniel] How do you think somebody like President Lyndon Johnson or even somebody like President George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush? Eso I’m thinking both Democrats and Republicans, um, would have responded to what we’re seeing right now because this is truly unprecedented. What do you think they would have would have done? How would it have responded?

[0:07:29 Mark] You know, I think the Lyndon Johnson is That’s that’s easy. And what I’ve talked about this extensively, uh, Lyndon Johnson desperately wanted to see civil rights reform, and he was just waiting for the political opportunity to do it. And he had this great partner in Martin Luther King. They wanted the same thing. They might have differed in terms of timing and tactics, but they wanted to achieve the same goal. And so you almost see, as you know, pineal. The symbiotic relationship between the two Martin Luther King is pushing LBJ, for instance, Thio put forward voting rights in 1964 65 Johnson says to King, You know what? I can’t do it. I don’t have the power to do it Which is a remarkable thing, coming from a figure like like Lyndon Johnson, we associate with with the exercise and acquisition of power. But what he meant was he didn’t have the political capital and the might to get it through a very reluctant Congress after they had just passed the wildly unpopular in certain Sections Civil Rights Act of 1964. And so he tells Martin Luther King, You’ve got to get your your movement, the people of your movement out, uh, into the pulpits, into the newspapers, into the streets. You got to get him out to expose Americans to the worst of voting suppression. And he says in this wonderful phone call with Martin Luther King that is at the LBJ Presidential Library, and this is a direct quote. He says. If you do that, there isn’t a fellow doesn’t do anything in this country, but drive a tractor who won’t say that isn’t right? That isn’t fair. So he had faith in the American people that if you showed them the injustices they would, they would compel lawmakers to put civil rights or, in this case, voting rights reform into law. So so Lyndon Johnson, I think, is pretty easy. I think what you had in George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush. These were very fair minded people. They understood America’s core ideals. They were steeped in decency, and I think they would have desperately tried to do the right thing to the problems of the 19 eighties and early nineties. And the early millennium were very different than those that that Lyndon Johnson face. But if you take George W. Bush in the wake of 9 11, 1 of the first things he does pineal is, you know, is visit a mosque to say that Muslims don’t all bomb our cities and don’t wanna annihilate our society. This is a a religion that is steeped in peace, and that’s how it should be recognized. So there’s a lot symbolic as well that presidents could do to help Ah, movement burgeon

[0:10:29 Peniel] And speaking of symbolism, we’ve seen, and there’s been all these debates about monuments and statues um, the Confederate flag and some of these monuments are being toppled nationally, some in peaceful ways, some and not peaceful ways. Some museums are removing. You think about the Museum of Natural History and Teddy Roosevelt, right next to a Native American and an African figure who seem to be in a subordinate position. Some people even want to remove uh, statue of Abraham Lincoln. I’m sort of giving freedom to this African American figure male who Sands sort of very a soup, timely sort of taking that freedom even though that monument was built by, uh, free black women and men or or financed by them. And historian David Blight has said, we shouldn’t remove that one because it shows us what we were thinking about, how we’re thinking about freedom and emancipation at the time. We should add to it so we can see how are our representations of freedom in American history change over time? What are we to make of that where it seems like we’re building a new consensus that we don’t want to see Confederate memorials, um, publicly displayed, even though they could be studied? Of course, they could be put in museums but just publicly displayed and glorified.

[0:12:01 Mark] You know, it’s It’s a It’s a great question penny on. I think it We have to have reasoned debates about thes things, reason conversations not only to learn the history of the individual, um, but the the history of the statue itself and why it was erected and come to a consensus to what the right thing is to do with that particular statue. As you pointed out, the statue of Abraham Lincoln, I agree. If you look at that statue today and you look at the former slave at literally at Lincoln’s knees, it’s hard to see that. But if you understand why it was erected, you have to respect uh, the the folks who put it in place. I think the bigger issue here pineal, is that we have to really look at the the history that is taught in our nation. We have to ensure that it is comprehensive enough that we’re not just talking about the white people who are in power at the time that we’re talking about all peoples and how, at any given time, uh, our our our ideals were being put into place. We’re a country of very high ideals, and too often in our country we haven’t lived up to them. But that that, I think, is the bigger and more important part of this ensuring that our students are taught comprehensive history that reflects all of the people of comprised this great nation over time.

[0:13:37 Peniel] And speaking of that comprehensive history, obviously, the LBJ Library is part of those public histories you convened a the foundation convened Erase summit. What can those of us who are interested in public history do moving forward? Especially right now? There’s so much intense interest in American history, but African American history as well on BC Anti racist books are, uh, top New York Times bestsellers. Really, For the first time in American history, you know there’s five of the 10, um, including Children’s books, young adult books. I mean, it’s really truly extraordinary to see publishers having to go Andrea reprint these books and they’re running out of books. Amazing. It’s amazing to see. So what can we do here locally in terms of both the foundation, the library, University of Texas at Austin to take to take a really lead in in this?

[0:14:37 Mark] Yeah, you know, I will happily answer that question. I want to ask you penny off. I’m a what? What is your answer to the statue? Question. What is your view on that? You and I haven’t talked about this, and I’d love to hear your thoughts.

[0:14:49 Peniel] You know, I said this on PBS news hour the other night that the Confederate monuments are low hanging fruit. I’d say that the Confederate monuments are I think there’s We’ve reached a point where there’s, um, consensus, even if it’s not political consensus among elected officials, and some of this is related to black lives matter. Some of this is related to the tragic shooting that happened in in, uh, the Charlotte’s shooting of 2015, when when nine African Americans were were murdered by white supremacists and Nikki Haley, uh, said, You know no more. We’re going to take down the flag. And President Obama did the very famous Amazing Grace speech in 2015, But now we haven’t even bigger consensus. So I would say that my my feelings on the on the Confederate monuments are that certainly weaken study that period, and we should study that period, and why the lost cause one the peace even as it lost the Civil War. But these memorials in public, um, naming of military bases, I think, is beyond the pale. Um, if you understand that the Civil War was fought to continue three United States of America toe end racial slavery and and to perfect this union. And there were folks who were completely opposed to that. And so they were. They were morally wrong, and I think they were politically wrong. I think the other statues arm or about that debate about you know what? You know. Let’s let’s find out what’s happening here. What’s the context here on day? Then we can make further decisions. But I’d say that the lowest hanging fruit in the United States is, uh, statutes, Uh, Commemorating, um, the Confederacy on public land.

[0:16:44 Mark] And I totally agree. And also, if if you look or something before, if you look at why they were erected, it was it was generations. A generation after the Civil War was fought and they were essentially, um uh, they were symbols. They were essentially telling that the African Americans in those communities that they had to abide by Jim crow laws, right s. So if you look at not only the individuals but the the reason that those statues were erected, there is a very compelling reason to take them down. I can’t agree more with you. Thio. Answer your question. No, I think what we can do that your organization, mind others is to amplify the voices out there. We’re in a really great point in our history, and we have to exploit it for everything. We can get out of it in terms of, uh, seeing systemic change result. And I think people’s minds are open, our hearts are open and our ears are open. And the have folks out there giving their points of view, uh, is something that we can offer at the at the library, and and, as we have you mentioned, the civil rights summit of of 2014, which I’m very proud of. But we also did the summit on race in America last year, which you participated in, and it was in a amazing exploration of where we are on race in our country, and we’re going to continue to do those things at the foundation.

[0:18:21 Peniel] Now, this idea of moral leadership. But we talk about LBJ. We talk about Martin Luther King Jr. And we have people like Reverend William Barber in North Carolina. Uh, poor people’s campaign. Poor people’s movement. We’ve had the black women who are organizers of the black lives matter movement. Um, Opal, Too many Alicia Garza, Patrice Kahn colors. But you’ve had Britney a pack met here. Um, what about moral leadership here? Because I do think that what was so important when we think about the civil rights movement was you had that leadership coming both from the black church. But you had Muslim leaders. Malcolm X was a Muslim. You had Jewish leaders. Rabbi Abraham Heschel. You had Catholic leaders on day. One of King’s last speeches is at the National Cathedral, where he received the enormous support both for his poor people’s campaign and for his, uh, anti war stance and audience of mostly white. Over 3000 Catholics really gave him. He preached. He preached the Passion Sunday sermon, a t end of March 1968. Um, where is that leadership? And when I say moral leadership, it doesn’t necessarily mean faith based. It can also be secular. Remember Kingman Brewster, a former president of Yale University, siding with the Black Panthers in the late sixties early seventies, saying that the Panthers couldn’t get a fair trial in the United States. Which is a very courageous thing to do, to say, Where is that moral leadership? What’s the place for that? Because certainly Lyndon Johnson on civil rights had that. Certainly Dr King, on civil rights, anti war had that. Where is that moral leadership today?

[0:20:08 Mark] Well, at a national level, it’s it’s virtually non existence. Uh, sorry. It’s virtually non existent. Uh, we’re not seeing any moral leadership, certainly from the White House. And that’s one of the great laments I have not only, or you’re not seeing any morality, you’re not seeing understanding of the core values on which this nascent nation was built, that that becomes absolutely paramount. If were to go forward, we need to see greater morality from our our president not only to ensure that our nation’s future is healthy, but the world’s future, and that democracy is protected abroad. I think the one thing that I wish we could way would see emerge in all this is a central leader, as you had in Martin Luther King or Ah, Malcolm X, somebody who commanded the respect and a large following of important stakeholders in our future and Penny. Oh, I don’t know why we haven’t seen that to this point. It’s incredibly important to have foot soldiers and have voices, but I wish a moral force would would rise up in the form of an individual who could help to coalesce a movement as well. What’s your what’s your What’s your view on that?

[0:21:33 Peniel] You know, I I don’t disagree. I think that one of the closest we have, in addition to Reverend Barbara is somebody who we both know. Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative and the Lynching Memorial. And he he just did a massive webinar where President Barack Obama, I really think that his book Just Mercy, which is about mass incarceration and sort of what he’s tried to do, is this. You know, uh, you know, Harvard educated lawyer, um, to try toe end injustice in the criminal justice system. He’s been a huge both political force and legal force, but really a moral force. This idea that we all deserve just mercy. We all deserve unmerited grace and I think he’s somebody who a lot of different stakeholders really appreciate. I think black lives matter as well. I think that they have purposely, um, not tried to have a central leader because they were pushing back against the cult of personality. But I do think that having representative spokespeople, spokespersons, we’ve we’ve seen Tameka Mallory. We’ve seen some other black women really young generation, really, really step up. And I think that Bryan Stevenson as an unelected official. So he’s very reminiscent in that way of somebody who’s organizing in his case is the legal arena. But he also did the African American Memorial toe lynching in Alabama. He’s been incredibly powerful and potent on. He’s somebody who’s really drawn in not just the African American community, but large sections of the white community. You know, you bring him to speak. I mean, he can fill it up arenas. And so there’s something powerful and compelling about the way he tells the narrative of American history and that both the struggle for racial justice but also he doesn’t pull punches, so he’s deeply empathetic to both black and white people, but he wants us to confront that history, and I remember when he came to UT and obviously you were part of organizing that. He said that the monuments we needed were both to the black and white allies during the 19th century who were anti slavery and anti racist activist, right? So when you do those new monuments, there’s a whole set of white Americans who have been moral heroes on black Americans, right and everybody in between. And the sad part for all of us is that we’ve they’ve really been lost to history. We know who William Lloyd Garrison was. Maybe, but there’s so many different abolitionists

[0:24:06 Mark] women in a zoo. You know, Bryan Stevenson was the keynote at the the Summit on Race in America last year because and you and I have talked about this because he is a moral voice, you have others you have. Barack Obama is still in extremely strong voice Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey. But I wear not seeing the kind of leadership that we saw in the 19 sixties, which was so which was so pivotal in moving the movement forward. You know, I think at the end of the day we are a divided people on That’s sort of the basic premise that that’s that’s That’s the basic idea of America. We can come here with different religions and different backgrounds and different races, and we become this melting pot. That’s that’s the idea of America. But there is on Lee three common denominators that I can see in being American. One is a respect for the rule of law. Second, a belief in egalitarian liberty and finally, a pension toward decency and basic fairness. But beyond that, our ideological differences are profound. But I think this moment meets all of those things. Um, that that I think we are finally seeing that that we are long overdue for these systemic reforms on and again, I’m hopeful that we can move forward in a positive way to ensure that their implemented.

[0:25:42 Peniel] But my last question is, I’ve got this great quote from Dr King, who says that the goal of America, even when sometimes America doesn’t realize this the goal of America is freedom. And I wanted to ask What what does that mean to you in 2020 when Dr King says the goal of America is freedom and how can we we institutionalized that How can we make that part of this national consensus? That goal of America is freedom, and we expand the parameters of who’s included in that

[0:26:18 Mark] goal. Okay. Yeah, I mentioned before. I think it is egalitarian freedom, but in a eyes essentially egalitarian liberty, which is the heart of the American experience, the American experiment. I think it means that everybody is given a fair shot in this country. That’s that was what it was founded on. And for so long we have not lived up to that promise. Those high ideals put on parchment by Thomas Jefferson and our other Founding fathers. Uh, and we’ve been chasing that for a long time. It has been so elusive, but I think it it, uh, in terms of, uh, how you put that into place, it is by pushing our government toward making the systemic reform to ensure that there is an equal playing field for all Americans. And there are many different components to that. As you know, uh, pineal, uh, you know, there there’s there’s criminal justice there, e got it. It’s so vast. But it starts with, um, ensuring that we are registering our choices in the at the polls and getting in place. Representatives who will be willing to put themselves on the line to ensure that racial equity is, uh, is, uh, part of their policy is at the root of what they’re putting into place as policy.

[0:28:01 Peniel] All right, so we end on a hopeful note like we always try to do on this podcast in terms of racial justice in 2020 and really, we had a great discussion with Mark Updegrove about leadership, both political and moral leadership. What we can do here in Austin and what we could do nationally to ensure that black lives matter. Black dignity and citizenship is achieved, and in so achieving, we actually achieve our country for all of us at its highest ideals. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. We’ve been speaking with Mark Updegrove, who’s the president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation right here in Austin, Texas. He’s the author of numerous books. His latest is The Last Republicans Inside Extraordinary Relationship between George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush, and he’s been the convenor of many historic conferences, including the 2014 historic three day Civil Rights Summit which featured multiple living presidents and a key note from Barack Obama and last year’s race summit, which featured a keynote from Bryan Stevenson on Bond. It featured Delores Whereto so many different, wonderful civil rights activists. Mark, thank you so much for joining us

[0:29:15 Mark] today. Oh, thanks for having me. And thanks again for your leadership.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.