Ep. 48 – The Black Image in American Popular Culture: A Conversation with Van Lathan

[0:00:07 Peniel] welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. 

[0:00:21 Peniel] Today we are pleased to have as our guest on this show Mr Van Lathan, who is really one of the most popular podcasts podcasters in America. He is part of the ringer and he hosts to podcasts. One is higher learning with Rachel Lindsay and the other is a favorite. Yeah, way down in the hole with Jamelle Hill A Z Everybody knows or may not know who listens to this podcast racing democracy. I am a huge fan of the wire. I have seen all 60 episodes at least a dozen times each season at least a dozen times since since its premiere in round 2001. When I was just finished grad school writing my first book. So I think that show is a totem. All the pieces matter and I love that podcast. And I’m a big fan of this current guest, Van Lathan, who is really one of most important journalists and commentators in America today. So Van, welcome to race and democracy.

[0:01:23 Van] Thank you for having me, brother. I just want to say for everyone Right now it is an absolute joy to be have recently started my way down the Peniel Joseph Rabbit hole in terms of all of your books. I am through Sword in the Shield. I am halfway through Wait until the midnight hour. And then after that, we’re going to Stokely man. So it’s awesome. That is awesome to talk.

[0:01:47 Peniel] No, thank you. Thank you. I I wanna start by talking about this current cultural moment because you do so much in the realm of sports and entertainment and culture. And what I really like about you and the podcast that you host is that you are probably the best reflection. One of the best reflections that I can think of of Renaissance blackness. Sometimes we call it Black Twitter, but black people are intellectuals. They’re interested in sports. They’re interested in romance and food and culture and fitness and wellness in space, in science, everything kung fu movies, everything and you’re you’re the first person I think who really showed that in a popular culture way. Like when you listen to your podcast, you get all of it like this brother is and I want you to tell us about your background. I know you’re from the South, but this brother is authentic, is original, but also is intellectually curious. Is funny eyes passionate. It’s just extraordinary. And for somebody like me, who grew up in New York City black New York, segregated New York I always knew that this is just part of our community, but we really don’t see it. You know, we’re some sort of divided in terms of so called thugs, Gangsters, drug dealers. Or you’re like the president of United States, Barack Obama we’re We’re not all those things simultaneously. And I love the fact that you show all the you show us in the complexity of who we are.

[0:03:19 Van] Yeah, I appreciate those kind of words, I think for me, uh, growing up. There were a lot of different things that led to that. You know what I mean? Like you said, I am from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and being from Baton Rouge, you’re least in my family. You know, I come from one side, my dad’s side of families from Marilyn, Louisiana, very, very small town outside of Baton Rouge, about 30 minutes outside of Baton Rouge and West Baton Rouge. Parish. My mama’s from the historically black part of bathrooms, which, if you guys listen to a little Bussi or any of those guys Kevin Gates, all of those guys, that’s what they rap about. They rap about the bottom. McKinley high is when I went to school and all of that stuff. So I have the country rural aspect of Louisiana raising me on one side. On the other side. I have the inner city, the white flight, all of those those societal ills on that side of it, and the transformation of that particular community raising me on the other side. Think what it did was it started making me curious about almost everything, right, because my dad would say stuff. And then my mom right away were contradicted, and then my mom would say stuff. And then my dad right away were contradicted. I remember my dad’s family deeply, deeply, devoutly Catholic and my mom’s family deeply, deeply, devoutly full gospel, full gospel, to the point that Reverend Ellis, my great grandfather, was, was the pastor of, like 12 different churches, right? Eso you have, uh, two things working at odds. My mother would see the Catholics during their thing and she had a problem with it. She didn’t believe in some of the things. She didn’t like Catholicism’s. She despised it, right? And so I would we would flip up churches and stuff like that. We would go to every Sunday. But what that made me do was asked myself, Well, what is Catholicism? You know what I mean? Like Okay, so that’s not what Mama does. And this other is what it is, not what Daddy does. Well, what’s the difference? And that question, even that early on started focus in my life. West. What does this actually mean? What does this actually mean and why people are at odds about it? Why isn’t there some sort of intellectual spiritual reconciliation and where is it the same? And where is it different? I started asking that question about so many different things in your life. And when you ask that question, what does it mean? What is the difference? What is it? It leads you in myriad, myriad like beautiful places. You discover so many things you you stumble upon so many different things. And that’s kind of where I guess the diversity and I thought kind of comes from just asking that central question that I had to ask to reconcile the relationship between my mother and father.

[0:06:11 Peniel] How did you become a journalist? And you’ve done television journalism? You’ve done all these different things. People may know you from TMZ the ringer, so many different outlets. How did you and when I would see you? You were usually one of the few black voices on those outlets. So it’s very interesting. How did you break through into journalism?

[0:06:32 Van] Well, it was never something that I wanted to dio. Actually, Degree don’t even consider myself a journalist. But that’s certainly I certainly broke stories for TMZ. The team. I saw a TMZ brother as a tour guide and I was the teams. The tour guide, like you would come on my bus and I would yuck it up for you teacher like I have a love of Hollywood and I would tell you about all these different things in Hollywood. I became on the bus one time and he saw me on the bus and he goes, Hey, uh, these guys engaging, we gotta try him on the show.

[0:07:02 Peniel] And this is Harvey Levin

[0:07:03 Van] Harvey Levin, the, uh, dude at TMZ. Yeah, right. Harvey Levin. So and then So he put me on the show. And then from there on the show, they just started using my skill set in a lot of different ways. And before you know what, I’m a senior producer there.

[0:07:18 Peniel] Wow. And you talked about the love of Hollywood. What got you into that love of Hollywood? Cause I have a deep love of popular culture, and I’m always interested in popular culture and the impact on black people. I remember reading Bell Hooks in graduate school in her book, Black Looks made me really rethink popular culture and the way in which blackness was in popular culture, at times exploited in popular culture but at times was very invigorating and beautiful. And I grew up in a time where there were independent black film makers like Julie Dash, Daughters of the Dust, which I saw at the movies Holly Jeremiah Sankoh, for which I saw at the movies. But I also grew up in Southside Jamaica, Queens, watching black exploitation films and Shaft and Superfly and you know, Denzel Washington on ST Elsewhere and Carbon Copy with George Segal. Yeah, I’m very I’m interested in cinema. And and I also knew about Charles Burnett and killer of sheep in these masterpieces. So how did you get this love of Hollywood?

[0:08:25 Van] So two different ways to different phases. The first phase was just that I fell in love with superheroes early on, right? Just early on, like I was a kid. And you want to get me out of bed and shout out to my father for always having the game, to play me to get me out of bed? My dad would be like, Hey, van Superman is at the door. I would run to the door to try toe Thio man, before he left. But every time I was too slow because Superman had just flown away. So it s o S O. I was in love with superheroes and with the story, the stories of their mythology from early on and that drove me into comics. And if you wanna open somebody’s mind up to story into cinema, comic books is one of the most amazing entry points to that. You’re figuring out all of these powers you’re reinforcing some things that are negative and even white supremacist. But at the same time, my brain was just figuring out what happened after the last scene after the last panel. But I remember very specifically a moment, very specifically a moment that I’m watching and my mother. We’ll tell the story as we p i a Z beautiful black mothers do. She would always tell the story. Sit down. Me and my mother were watching Do the right thing. Now before then, The excitement of watching my parents go to movies is kind of what attracted me to them, right? My dad would get so excited to watch Eddie Murphy, my mother would, my mother would get so excited for like when, Um when are trading places would be on what We would rent the video like they would get so excited about these films they would like, You know, there were. There were events at this time, like there was so much cultural pride in these people, you know, in the Color Purple, the woman, the Brewster Place, which is television movie. All of these things meant so much to them. So me and my mom one time we’re sitting down and we’re watching do the right thing, right? Watching a movie and, uh, my mom Comptel around this time that I’m actually into it like I’m understanding sort of everything that’s going on in the movie It Z maybe nine or 10 at the time. And it’s a It’s a movie that’s like It’s a little bit past what you were able to digest at that age, but I’m into it. I’m getting it. I’m hooked and she’s into that. Like she tells the story, she goes, I see that he’s not just glazed over like he’s fascinated with what he sees. And, um, I’m asking my mother just different things about the film. And she goes, She looks at me. She goes, You see Mookie, little guy who plays movie, She goes, Yeah, because that Spike Lee she was like he wrote and directed the movie Hey did it. He wrote and directed the movie. And I said, Well, what does that mean? Well, when you write, the movie is like everything that’s happening, like he made it up, like in his mind. It’s all coming from him and she goes, Well, when you direct the movie, uh, you stand around and tell everyone where to go. Everyone what to do? It looks like you wanted to look. It moves how you want to remove. Like you’re the boss. You’re in charge without back of my mother. And I said they let black people do that like without even ah hesitation. I said that and she cried. She goes, Yeah, they let you do that. She’s like no one can stop you from doing anything. She was like she felt indicted. She felt like, How could this be her kid asking what he could do? She was like, Yeah, yeah. Is that what you wanna do? I’m like, that would be a lot of fun to do. E don’t meet with movies, and before you know it, um, you know, it goes from do the right thing. At nine or 10 by 13 I’m onto a Clockwork orange and now we’re deep into cinema. I’m seeing everything that comes out. I’m studying everything. I’m watching everything, Andi. And that’s kind of where it started. And a lot of the lessons that I’ve learned about life have been through art artist still teaching those lessons even today

[0:12:31 Peniel] And and you know that makes me wanna dip into this discussion of the wire because the wire is so cinematic. The 60 episodes from 2001 to 2000 and 85 different seasons set in Baltimore on, I Think, the original speaking cast of 41 actors 27. 27 of them were African American, created by David Simon. But these indelible characters of Body and and Putin and Stringer Bell and Avon Barksdale. Lieutenant Daniels. Ah, Lester Freamon. Uh um, so many different, um, the bunk, Jimmy McNulty. But we get the we get the cops, the docks, City hall, we get the public school system, we get the media, and David Simon has talked about it as this this, uh, Dickensian tale of late capitalism. But race runs through the wire, and this is the first Siri’s that we saw because this is pre thes brilliant new Siri’s, such as Atlanta. Or I may destroy you, or insecure or some of the golden age of television that we have now for black actors. But the wire was one of the first places that we saw, Uh, the complexity of the so called criminal we saw. You know, Wallace, played by young Michael B. Jordan Season one and what Happens toe Wallace. We saw you know, different black women and men who usually had bit roles on television. Siri’s like NYPD Blue or like, uh, Hill Street Blues back in the day, Um, but this time, instead of being bit players, we found out who they were. Their hopes, their dreams, the betrayals, who they loved. And we developed deep empathy for them. So I want you to talk about what attracted you to the wire and what has attracted the black community to the wire because I think it away. What makes your voice so powerful in the way in which it’s so amplified is that you represent so much of what black people think about and enjoy on and and really imbue their hopes and dreams and aspirations into in a cultural sense and are able to articulate that. So when people hear you and the conversations that you curate, people feel at home,

[0:14:57 Van] Yeah, I think with wire, it’s television that hadn’t been tried before then and really television that hadn’t been tried since in terms of what it specifically talks about. The first thing that we talk a lot about. We talk about propaganda now, right and sort of shows that lionize the police and make the police force look like they’re, you know, crusading for justice and crusading for, you know, the American way. Like they’re, you know, visual little Superman, right? The first thing that I noticed about the wire, the most blatant and obvious thing was that they weren’t doing that. I wasn’t sure what they were doing when I first started watching it. And I will be honest with you that I only watched the wire accidentally. I was a huge friends of sopranos. The Sopranos was the other side of American drama, highly, you know, dramatized and very sort of playing into all of those gangster tropes and things like and

[0:16:00 Peniel] That’s not propaganda. That’s mobaganda friend.

[0:16:02 Van] You know that That’s mobaganda. So you know, when I leave into the wire and I look and you see Jimmy melting, you see all of these things happening. You see a guy get off for murder and it takes you about 10 minutes to realize that you’re happy for him. You know what I mean? Like like he like he beat a murder it takes you about 10 minutes to realize that you’re happy that he’d be the murder. Now, the interesting thing is is that you’re happy that he beat the murder, uh, on this show, which is unfamiliar because it is a show. But that’s not to say that in South Band Rouge that I hadn’t been happy that guys had beaten murders before. So the feeling was familiar, right? But it’s just not something you’re used to consuming on television. And then when the wire starts to parse apart, the system’s off policing the drug war, politics and all of those things. Before you even realize what’s happening, you’re seeing people you know in different characters. I talked about Cuddy’s character, right. I talked about cookies character a couple of episodes ago and how I had an uncle, my Uncle Mark, for the first time I met him. He was a resident of Angola State Penitentiary and the first time I saw him free, beautiful 6 ft five slim strongman. First time I saw him free. I was about 15 or 16 years old, and I listened to somebody talk about having given their best year, the best years of their life to the prison system, just feeling like there was he didn’t even understand. He looked at me and he cried. He was like, Yo, who are you? Like your 62? You know what I mean? Like my time. When The last time he had actually seen me, I was a baby. So the wire takes those characters and really digs into them who they are. You talk about something earlier. That’s very important. How one or two different decisions in a life where the stakes are that high oftentimes dictate what’s gonna happen to someone is this is all being recounted, right by, ah, former homicide cop and a former news reporter who were inundated with these stories for years and years and years. His tragedies, both personal and tragedies of system for years and years and years and walked away from the whole thing, feeling helpless to have done anything to change it. The one thing that they could do, the one salvation that those guys had was to take ah, dramatic novelization of all of those things and give it to people and like lower the veil and let people see exactly how futile a lot of these things are Another thing that the wire does is it makes the viewer complicit and what’s going on. Like you see these people and American capitalism, American excess, the white flight, um, turning your back on the middle class all things that a lot of Americans are, you know, actively engaged in your help creating these problems by buying the bullshit of the drug war by buying all of these things, your help creating these problems. These people are not just victims of West Baltimore. We can all look around and say, in a way, they’re victims of you, the Watcher, the viewer, Um, then beyond that, you know, it just it strips away. You don’t come away from the show feeling like you’re better than anyone. That’s a hard thing to do when you’re watching the movie, when you’re watching a film, you’re supposed to feel like you’re better than the village. You’re supposed to feel like you’re not as good as the hero. The hero is supposed to show some uncommon bravery that gives you that keeps you coming back from the for the Sequels, right? You wish you could be as brave as Batman fighting for everyone. You wish you could be as brave as Indiana Jones. You wish you could be as brave as Shaft, which you could be as brave as those guys. But you’re not going to risk your life to solve the case. The wire doesn’t ask that for you from the heroes. You could be any of those guys because there is fucked up is all. As all get out, right. The wire doesn’t actually. And it also tells you that the people in there that are the drug addicts and the drug dealers and the dancers that we typically look down on the society. You could have easily been one of them. And it’s the only show that’s ever really gotten that right

[0:20:40 Peniel] Now I think that one of the interesting parts about the wires, how oppression and prophetic it turns out to be in the age of our plague and mass unrests and black lives matter. And I’m thinking of Bunny Colvin and hamster Damn! And and the young people who, even when they’re selling drugs in hamster damn the free zone, they call it pandemic. The same pandemic, that pandemic. We’re in the middle of a pandemic. But what do we think about? You know, in some ways, culture has been so mashed up, uh, in the 21st century, but really hitting an apex in 2020 where we see, um, aspects of the wire talked about just bombarding us when we see racial justice, protests, unrest, but monuments of white supremacy toppling down. But we also see white supremacist marching in the streets. We see police brutality and state sanctioned violence, including police in Buffalo cracking the skull of us elderly white man on national television. But these things have been hidden. The wire was only nominated for one Emmy and really posthumously became considered on critics. Top three Top 10 shows many times the number one show of all time, and many people have imbibed the wire after it was on the highest rated season of the wire was seasoned to the docks where conspicuously you had ah, lot wider narrative main narrative thread with Frank Sobotka and the the unions. Um and so, you know, I want us to talk about, you know, we’re in such an interesting time right now. You know, we have Watchman, which was nominated for 26 Emmies with the, um you know, the incandescent Regina King and Cord Jefferson, who’s African Americans is up for an Emmy for Episode Six

[0:22:47 Van] Uh ah, friend. A friend of mine, by the way. And I’ll tell you something brilliant. Like Kourtney and court were sitting down. This is not a flex, Guys. This guy I gotta give quarters flowers me and quarter sitting down me court and shout out to Tommy Alter we’re having We’re having dinner and I know that court had written on watchman and I’m talking to him, but I go, Yo, man, just let you know The show is very interesting to look at, and stuff like that had me haven’t been obviously a gigantic fan of the graphic novel. And then I say, You know, when is it going to start to come together? And he goes, I’m not at all to my own horse, all right? I was like, Just answer the question court. He goes my episode, which is, which is

[0:23:33 Peniel] Episode six, which is the origin story of hooded justice. And so

[0:23:38 Van] he’s not lie right? It did, like just brilliant television.

[0:23:44 Peniel] Yeah and when we think about everybody here who’s listening watchman is the Allen more classic. I’m a huge comic book had this one of reasons why I vibe with Van so much and I still have over 1200 comics here, including Alan Moore, Watchman and Miracle Man and all these different comic books. But Watchman is setting an alternative. 1984. Ronald Reagan There’s the superheroes, but it connects superhero vigilantism to fascism, toe authoritarianism to sort of this almost Orwellian sort of dystopian, um, parallel universe. And what David Linda, loss watchman along with Cory Jefferson in a writer’s room that was 75% black, according to Cory Jefferson. What they did is utilized the 1921 Tulsa Massacre Aziz, This alternate history of watchman that you’re living in a society where race is what shapes the first, uh, in Cannes. In you know, the first inculcation of a superhero Hooded justice is this black man who had been a victim of the Tulsa massacre who then is victimized again, is being the first black police officer of Tulsa. But once he arrests a white band, he is lynched by his fellow police officers who are connected to Cyclops, a white supremacist group and they let him go, um, as a warning. And he uses the He goes through so much trauma both in Tulsa and as a police officer. He uses the noose, uh, to formulate this this, uh, this vigilante and people think that he’s white. They think that he’s white, he puts on the white eye makeup and there’s so much subversion there in terms of sexuality, and it’s so intersectional because he’s bisexual. I mean, it’s it’s it’s extraordinary. Um, it’s extraordinary. And so what are we to make of this moment in terms of popular culture with with again with watchman with the black lives matter, movement with so many different companies and corporations and even somebody like yourself who’s talked about this before? But suddenly there’s an audience to talk about. Race suddenly how to be an anti racist white privilege. Eso you want to talk about race by E. G. M o olu is these Air bestsellers? Some books have sold over a million copies this year alone were only eight months into the year, less than, uh, that are anti racist books. So what do you to make of all this? The NFL saying black lives matter and Roger Goodell’s hostage video. What are we to make of all this? He looked like he was a hostage. Hey, looked like he was a hostage. Patrick Mahomes and the black. The brother said black lives matter. We are Briana Taylor. Ahmad are very, uh, George Floyd. And within 24 hours, Roger Goodell was in his bunker in the basement with his eyes bugged out, saying black lives matter. Extraordinary.

[0:26:41 Van] It is. You know what, Dr Joseph? Uh, I don’t know That says intellectually honest and answer as I can give you the there part of me wants to believe that we’re witnessing a genuine sea change in acting cultural history where we can take back, step back and take a look at the treatment and not just the treatment, but the contributions and the resilience off black people in America. Um, part of me really wants to believe that, right? But and I blame you partly for this, too. E having read the story in the shield. Uh, you’ve ushered me back into militant face. Um uh, you know, I was coming out of it, but having random sword and shield, you know, you’re giving me. You’re giving me Malcolm, right? You’re giving me the full Malcolm right off a holistic view of Malcolm. And then you’re giving me something that they never give me a sword in the shield. You’re giving me the radical Dr King, which I was eating up. I was eating that, like, some to fame I model made. I was loving that guy. I love that guy. And they don’t give you that guy.

[0:28:05 Peniel] No, no, he’s extraordinary.

[0:28:07 Van] Right? But part of me, uh, part of me has trouble believing that America will ever be ready to take an actual look. The structures that was built on the exploitation that it’s taken part of, and just the erasure of black. Because I want people to know something. For all of the amazing black culture that gets celebrated in America, that is on Lee, the tip of the iceberg. It’s the tip of the iceberg of what hasn’t been erased, what hasn’t been appropriated, what hasn’t been suppressed or overlooked. It’s all just the tip of the iceberg. It’s just the taste. I don’t really know if America would ever be ableto handle us at full strength bar for precipitation. Us and full participation.

[0:29:04 Peniel] But, Van, aren’t we doing that right now, in the sense of you think about the 16 19 project, which is curated by, uh, the brilliant Nicole Hannah Jones we think about even on television stars P valley about Mississippi and, uh uh, Triska Luca, Mississippi. I mean, this is we’re getting different. You know, I may destroy you with, uh, Mikayla Cole. And that’s Brit. Brilliant. We can talk about black Brits and what does that mean for us in the context of black culture? But Atlanta and and the, you know, Lucky Stanfield, Issa Rae and insecure. And the movie the photograph, Um, you know, Queen and Slim Lena Thwaite and what Lena Thwaite has done when we talk about l g b T Q I A. So isn’t it happening now, though? I understand your warning because we haven’t shifted power relations where there are suddenly black studio heads and black network presidents and black really venture capitalist and V. C and hedge hedge funders who are really the oligarchs controlling our our democracy, which isn’t really a democracy. Uh, it’s it’s under authoritarian and predatory capitalist control in very obvious ways and very obvious ways. Whether you’re thinking about our food production, whether you’re thinking about our lack of health care, where you’re thinking about a for profit health care system, racial segregation in public schools, on education, on neighborhoods but also just, um, the way in which we think about Silicon Valley and tech, which is connected to Hollywood, how white that is. And that’s become this white male utopian fantasy of the greater good. And black people don’t apply. Black women don’t apply black, queer and Trans don’t apply eso on some levels. Until we fix that, we’re not gonna be at full strength to use your words.

[0:31:07 Van] Yeah, it’s interesting. I was talking to a friend of mine who works in Tech, right it He was telling me something. It was fascinating. He was like, Do you? It’s hard for him in Tech to get meetings for the things that he needs. VCs the funding for right. Um, you know, think about the tech guys. Every tech guy thinks that there are many God, you’re like they’re coated. I mean code. A code is by nature. They sit down and they create little universes. So it’s very, very hard. Thio convince a coder of anything other than the fact that they’re going to change. He was talking to me about something. This guy’s actually like the black brother known in my whole life. Hey, was talking to me about the fact that you know, ah, lot of the things that get invested into these hedge funds. He said, Well, did you know that black bus drivers in Ohio, our funding, um tech and Silicon Valley was like, What do you mean he goes, Well, you know, your black bus driver in Ohio, you roll your pension fund up into something like that. Then the pension fund invested some hedge fund in a hedge fund, turns around and gets like a gives a meeting to some young VC to some young tech people. Um, thio. Okay, like those people are never black. It was like so even the money that we pay into the system, we never see our fair share of it. You’re doing the right thing and you’re on, As they would say in the wire, the straight paying money to a pension fund. The pension fund is investing. Is that pension fund investing with black people? Probably not So the money goes not just the people on the tax base go out of the community. The money goes out of the community, doesn’t come back to black creatives to fund a new new generation off black ingenuity and black, uh, as sort of tech conquering the world. Or however you wanna put it. So I think about all of those things when I think about these the black struggle in a in a holistic way, right from tech, like you just did from tech to politics. All of those things as faras entertainment, culture, dancer, question popular culture. Are we to that point? The answer is, I think so. I think we’re to the point right now toe where the’s stories are being appreciate the way they should be appreciated. I think so. I’m hopeful that they are. But remember, one thing is gonna rule in this town. That’s the bottom line, the money aspect of the economics of it. So it helps that Atlanta’s a runaway hit show across the board, not just in our culture, everywhere across the board to run away, hit show. It helps that people love insecure. It helps that watchman, even though window office. The guy that created Watchman and Got it on that watchman is so black and it’s so big and has reestablished Regina, who doesn’t need any reestablishing. She’s one of the biggest stars in the world and then launched the career of Yeah, so it Z. All of these things are helpful, but I can’t take my watchful eye off of the executives and the machine that’s exploited our stories for so long. I gotta keep that same question. I think so. I think we’re in a new day, and I hope that that bears out that we are.

[0:34:25 Peniel] And we’re talking about, Yeah, yeah, who plays Dr Manhattan? A black doctor. Manhattan In watching

[0:34:31 Van] itself Revolutionary. Think about that. You don’t know watchman. Most other most other of the heroes in Watchman or Batman like meaning they are. People have trained themselves up. They could do all kinds of amazing things. There’s only one actual real superhero who is the most powerful being in the galaxy, and that is John Awesome and Dr Manhattan. They made that character black in this Siri’s that alone. Making that black guy the strongest hero anywhere was in and of itself revolutionary. I couldn’t believe it. It was fantastic. The way it was executed was perfect.

[0:35:05 Peniel] And also just the allegory about white supremacy for 2020 the anticipated both, um, you know, the low point of the current presidential administration, but just the way in which there’d be resistance against white supremacy but really white supremacy, trying to shape and control a society through the criminal justice system. Really sharp, sharp stuff, really important. I want to talk about sports and n b A and football. And what are What’s the impact of people like LeBron James in the NBA. A. LeBron James pushing for voting rights, really in a nonpartisan way, just saying everybody should vote. But the MBA allowing its players to fully express themselves? In contrast to the NFL that, uh, famously basically blackballed Colin Kaepernick after his peaceful demonstration in 2016, taking the knee during the national anthem protests against racial injustice. Um, what do we think about black players, um, focusing like they did in the NFL, but the MBA for justice, really, in a way that I would say that we have never seen them as cohesive, including during the golden age of the civil rights movement. I’ve never seen anything like this.

[0:36:24 Van] I’m a based, and I’ve asked several different athletes like this that I’ve interviewed like What’s the difference? What changed? I’m amazed I’m fascinated with I’m fascinated with. We went through the biggest athlete off the nineties. It’s Michael Jordan, you know, basically saying Republicans buy sneakers to Michael Jordan, outwardly, a guy who we all worshiped. By the way, Every time I say this, people think I’m getting that mike. No, man, I still I still worship Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan, the man I’m just keeping a gangster like The reality is that Mike had an opportunity to get involved in something and he didn’t wanna do it because it interfered with his bottom line. Absolutely, Yeah, yeah. So Michael Jordan’s not

[0:37:07 Peniel] assume she’s not some social justice hero or champion. That’s fine. That doesn’t You’re not indicted for that, but we can say that he’s not that I agree,

[0:37:15 Van] right? And we went through out of a time where the guys that did do things like that. My mood. I’ll do Iove Craig Hodges. Once you Yeah, um, get out of here and then you had earlier on in that decade, Barkley saying. I’m not a role model, you know what I mean? Like parents, we robot, I’m here to play basketball. Um and then all of a sudden, you fast forward a generation and everybody is involved. It’s almost the opposite. If you don’t have anything to say you looked at as corny, you’re ostracized in a different way. I I it can. I think there’s a There’s two things to be said about that about that. In terms of the NBA number one, the NBA is the best league in terms of being reactionary and reactionary in a good way. The NBA doesn’t try to as a league at any other time at any point. It doesn’t try to, um, it’s not rigid In his view of the world the NFL is. The NFL tries to force people into viewing things the way that that league needs you for tea view the NBA always. If they’re Mawr international players coming, they lean into that. If the players have, I mean, the only thing that didn’t lean into was all the gold chains and all that stuff. They were like no, that we can’t do that I was. So the MBA tries to be pliable in its view of popular culture and the way things were going to society, and it tries to be supportive of its players and what they care about, you know, and what they think. If you go back and you look at the NBA All Star Games from years past, it really looks like the suburbs understand Now you got rock and all the rappers and me goes everybody. It’s a young, sexy sport, and they wanted to be young and sexy, and their athletes care about these things. So they’re trying to care about the things that they’re athletes care about on the least part for sure. What I’m more concerned with and what I’m or fascinated with is this generation of young black men in the NBA and do not leave out the W MBA, which is also at the forefront of activism, really started maybe a little bit even before the fellas did, as a league and and and like, you know, team to team. What changed? I don’t know, like E can’t really speak to it. It could have been a change in maybe societal uh, dynamics, you know, like a guy that you take a guy like LeBron James, you know, raised of the single mother. He understands exactly what he went without. He understands his neck lottery ticket that he got that stopped him from being, like, so many of his friends and so many people that, you know, he was around. And now he knows how to facilitate. Uh, you know, a success for other people, and he’s actively doing that. So I can’t say what changed, but I’m glad I did, because I’m not even just talking about the stars. Um, I’m talking about the older guys, the younger guys, the guys in the middle. It doesn’t even matter the guys who we think of knuckleheads, people, guys like J. R. Smith guy who I talked to people think is a knucklehead. That brother is so involved in what’s going on in Jersey. He is so involved. I could tell

[0:40:34 Peniel] you what change and one of my arguments and something I’m working on now is, you know, we’re in the midst of America’s third reconstruction in the first two, of course, are right after racial slavery 18 65 to 18 77 where you get the 13th, 14th 15th Amendment so end of racial slavery. Except for incarceration. Like Ava, Duvernay points out, birthright citizenship and blackmail voting rights. Women can’t vote in this country till 1920. Um, and most black women can’t vote in this country until 1965. But that first reconstruction is stymied by racial terror and anti black violence. So when we think about the first reconstruction, it’s really not the so called black codes, which should have been called the white supremacist codes instead of the black codes from voting. It’s really going to be mass incarceration, convict lease system and in the murder of really tens of thousands of people, more than we’ll ever know, because we, as a society, are too caught up in lynching and the numbers of lynching between 18 70 1950 anywhere from 4000 to 6500 exponential times mawr were killed and murdered in towns, uh, in the south, but then the West and and then during the great migration to. So it’s really an extraordinary story that’s still not told. Second reconstruction is a civil rights period from the brown desegregation decision all the way to MLK s assassination. And now I would argue, since the time of Obama and all the way up until now 12 years were in this dramatic transformation. But these these young people and my next questions about millennials like yourself because I’m saying anybody who’s 40 and under 1980 millennial I’m a generation xer thes young people have been politicized by the black lives matter movement. 1.0 was 2013 14 after Trey Von After Michael Brown with those folks Patrice Kahn Colors and Alicia Garza and and that group of black radical queer uh, L G B T Q. A. Folks who organized that and the other has been this 2020 a zwelling. Certainly there’s been pushed back against the white supremacists, supremacist, audiology and policies coming from the White House as well. And that being said, What do we think you’ve You’ve been asked about the difference between racial justice and racial equality. I want to talk about that. But why are millennials eso active? And I buy millennials? I’m saying, you know, people born between 1980 roughly in 1995 late nineties and it was millennials who shouted down Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton was millennials. Who said that look, Hillary had called a super Predators. There are some people from my generation like myself who had always criticized the Clintons and the neo Liberals but our own contemporaries. And certainly the boomers loved Bill Clinton to the point where Toni Morrison, when he was under impeachment, said he was the first black president. Yet there’s a newer generation that literally shouted down the Clintons and told them what they had done to black people was unforgivable. And these were the same generation. And you’ve mentioned people like Phil Agnew who I know. TEF Poe 19 Keys. Tiffany uh, Dina Loft in Kimberly Jones Chanel Helm. You’ve mentioned those folks. No name Tamika Mallory, Britney Pack Net DeRay McKesson. You’ve mentioned all these folks, and what made them grabbed the mic from Bernie Sanders and say, We have to speak in black lives matter at your rally because you talking about economic justice. It’s not enough unless racial justice is centered. So these folks have been really, really impressive, and certainly there’s an older generation that has been steadfast right along with them, but I do have to say they’ve been truly impressive.

[0:44:23 Van] I think the boomers are the last generation that truly believed in America, truly believed in America as America was presented right, I think the election of Obama was was a tipping point for a lot of people like me. Um, I believed, naively that the election of Obama, which still transformative moment in my life I still could give you a million sob stories about why it meant so much to me. E think that it was when they were throwing around that word post racial hook, line and sinker, hook, line and sinker. All of it. I thought we had. I was going around telling my conservative friends, um from from Baton Rouge that that, you know, they would. We would never We wouldn’t have another Republican president for 25 30 years. It’s like it’s over. We got it. I mean, I really I really was like, complete, naive all of it. Right. Then we lost Trayvon. Mhm. And something happened to me personally when that happened. When we lost Travon, I was working to TMZ and E remember I was just in the office and I heard somebody say. But see, it’s not racist. E lost it. I lost it because I thought I thought about George Temple, a friend of mine who was killed in Baton Rouge by bystanders. When he was going back and forth with police. I thought about all of these different things. I thought about so many of these things that we had just kind of accepted as a way of the world. You know, I thought about Diyala and Louima and all of these guys. You know, I thought, Well, I thought about all the ones that have happened. It’s not like this hasn’t always been happening. I thought about it and I thought, We’re right back here again. And then I think an entire generation of people start to look at What do we actually have to do to affect change, not toe feel better? Because, with all due respect to the brilliance Toni Morrison saying some saying that Bill Clinton is the first black president, it’s something that feels good. It feels good, right, because you have Bill Clinton and it seems like he cares about your problems. It seems like Bill Clinton is a is A is somebody who you can, who you can rely on, but at the same time, Bill Clinton then blocks your uncle’s up, so it felt good, but it wasn’t actually good. And I think the interconnected, the interconnectivity of social media, how fast the information moves from one person to the next allows not just ideas but feelings to catch fire. There’s a feeling of inadequacy. Ah, feeling of displeasure. Ah, feeling of dissatisfaction with the American status quo that exists on a basic level now that I’ve never experienced before in my past. Every time I talk to someone in the milk of what you’re talking about, they’re talking to me about ways to make this country better, not ways to put a Band Aid on it, our systems rather than people. When it’s not about Bill Clinton, when it’s about the cultural system here in America, right? No. Where it’s not about George W. Bush when it’s about when it’s about the military, the militarization of the police. But it’s not about one guy, one evil dude. It’s not about Dick Cheney, right? Whether or not women are empowered in their workplace, whether or not they feel like they’re getting equitable paying treatment. When you talk about these things on a systemic level and you talk to people who or experts in the voices like, um, you mentioned Tameka, you mean you mentioned all of these people, but so many of these voices that have such expertise and what specifically is wrong with America? You realize exactly the job that you have to do to fix it. That job is for the youthful. It’s for the young. It’s for the people who have the most energy I remember, Poch said. Back in the day. You know, I love that the world hears me like I am right now, because when I get older, that fire probably is gonna leave my belly. But like where I’m at right now, I’m screaming and I’m shouting for it and you know, and we were like, We’re seeing that And there’s so many to be honest with you. So many aspects of this, like I talkto guys like you, and I feel overwhelmed with the weight of your insight and the historical analysis off what black Americans have gone through, and not just what they have gone through, but what they’ve overcome and the realities of it and how interconnected all of it. Iss right? And I talked to other people, and I feel overwhelmed about their understanding of just what’s wrong with America. But then I get inspired by the fact that we have the right doctors who diagnosed it, because these things I’ve never heard of before. I’ve never heard off the funding until just now. But you talked to Philip. Mike Harris. He’s been living this for years. You talk to Marc Lamont Hill. He’s been an abolitionist for years. They gave me a shirt one time the way on this. So we’re on the show on this shirt, said. I am dedicated to the abolition. It’s a quote by a lady. I have to see the shirt dedicated to Appalachian abolition of all jails and prisons. I wore the shirt because this group asked me to where they say it would be a big deal for us, but I don’t believe it, because how could I envision a society at that point is 67 years ago with no jails or prisons, or how could I envision a society where you know so much money is being put into that That We’re not putting money into things that would actually make these communities better. I had no concept of it, and I’m still learning. So I just think that there’s so much there is such a better way to share information. And there’s so much of there’s so many more effective ways to hook people into exactly what the problems of the world are, um, that it’s both daunting at times, but also incredibly inspiring. And this generation, they just know they know how to do it a little bit better. There. Mawr involved they they got out into the world. They did everything they were supposed to, you know, They went to college and they came home and they still didn’t have any jobs. You know, they went out into the world and they code switched. It’s still got beat up by the police. So the question is not how do we cover it with a Band Aid? The question is, how do we heal the wound? Bond is gonna take some work, and I think a lot of people out there are ready to do that. Work is gonna be hard.

[0:50:56 Peniel] You had a podcast called the Red Pill And when you think about the matrix blue pill red pill and I think what you’ve described about you listening in new ways is about opening up your eyes and being in this space that some of us have been fortunate enough to be in for for a long, long time. But I’ll admit that, uh, even before Barack Obama and I’m thinking about the Jena six, I’m thinking about Hurricane

[0:51:22 Van] Katrina. Yeah,

[0:51:26 Peniel] I’m thinking about Yusef Hawkins, though growing up, I’m thinking about Michael Griffith. Sean Bell. Being in this space was much lonelier. It waas because the work that I’ve done, it’s at an all time high in terms of interest in the work that I’ve done. But I’ve always thought that this work was central, right? You know, I want to close out by talking about black Twitter and something culturally that I’m really, um, intrigued by two things because I couldn’t let you go without talking about cardi B on black rage and black rage. Because, um, I think you’ve spoken eloquently about black rage and black men and women being expected to act rationally and irrational situations. I think one of the interesting things about Malcolm X and then Dr King, is that Malcolm showed you black rage in full display. There’s an interview with Malcolm X in 1964 where he says that black people are angry and I’m the angriest on that. Always, always, I just couldn’t believe it. When I read that, he said black people were angry and he said, I’m the angriest right And he was angry about all of the death and the racism and white supremacy and the segregation and the murder and the incarceration in 64 that’s Onley increased in 2020. So I want to talk to you about black rage. Both rage against white supremacy, but also cardi B, because I think it’s very interesting. The reaction to W. A. P and so many, I think, misguided men. In lot of cases, black men sort of blaming cardi B and blaming her for this structural vulnerability that black communities face, whether it means that young are teenagers, have higher STD rates. They don’t have this because of what Cardi B is saying in this very patriarchal, homophobe IQ predatory capitalist society that we live in. She is not part of some kind of conspiracy to destroy black culture. And she’s not some representation of the of of the pathology of black culture, either. I think so much is going on all at the same time. But I was so interested in the way in which aspects of black Twitter either praised and celebrated her or or vilified and demonized her. Not to mention the whole Kylie Jenner being part of that, uh, the cameo and a big A big media explosion, people wanting her to be taken off of the video. But what do you think about that? This idea of cardi B and how certain black women can be used as scapegoats toe what’s going on in the society. So we sort of might elevate Beyonce right now and we say cardi B, there’s something really negative, but also this idea of rage black rage in the context of 2020

[0:54:13 Van] so as to cardi B and sort of when we self critique are, you know each other people are gonna have different levels of moral response. Thio thinks they are, um, but I think overall we want so badly to believe that it’s us. The one thing that we have been convinced of is that if we acted better, we’d be treated better on that. And that is the first thing that you have to convince the people of in order to continuously subject gate. If we if we’re activity well, don’t resist. Don’t assert your American rights. Don’t ask why you’re being stopped, even though that’s well within your rights. Don’t don’t don’t do any of that stuff and you’ll just because they want. They want to believe in order to believe in America. You have to believe that if you go out there and you work hard and you do things the way that you’re that you’re supposed to do them, that things will work out for you. So if you’re in a thong and you’re shaking all around the place, well, that’s bad. Lead to other things being bad. And now the reason why things happen. It’s not because of the situation that you have been put in or structures that are intentionally marginalizing. Your oppressing you is because you shook your button. I thought so when that happened. Don’t expect anybody to come to your defense because you shook your button. Thought right, right, so as long as we stand up straight back straight mass or treat, it’s nice. That’s something that black people have something. Now. I’m not gonna speak for all of us that a lot of black people I know have swallowed hook, line and sinker for a long time and a lot of the praise for the video. To me, it’s just a music video. If you like it, you like it. If you don’t, you don’t. I think it’s to a degree, always a revolutionary act whenever, whenever anyone says they don’t care about anything, because caring is the way that they get you right. So whatever you say, like I’m naked and I don’t care, I go hats off to you because I’m not gonna be naked. So you know what I mean? So it’s always a revolution, especially when women do it. So I understand people that lean into that that leaned into that. But it’s not. It’s not the march on Washington, and it’s it’s not anti olives Church of Satan. It’s a music you know me and shout out If you go to the Church of ST, I’m not Disney. I’m just saying like it’s not it’s not. It’s not either of those things because, like it’s a music video. So like relax in a real way, Um, in terms of black rage, we gotta hold onto our rage. They socialize my range out of me For a long time when I was growing up, I was in the gifted program. I was with all the white kids, right, and I was angry. There’s a lot of anger is a lot of stuff to be angry about. You got kids coming in. They’re wearing shirts saying Russia’s right Rush Limbaugh stuff. You got Confederate flags in your face. You got all of that stuff, all of those things. And then at the same time, you know you’re dealing with drug addiction in your family. These people here are talking about all different types of things that they have absolutely no idea about. You call something ghetto You ain’t never seen the ghetto before. You don’t know what ghetto is. You saying somebody’s after like a crackhead? You don’t know any crackheads? I know crackheads like you don’t know what that like. You don’t know my life. Stop. Stop lampooning my life with every sentence that you have. It’s making me feel small, right? So there was a lot of reasons growing up that I was angry. I was angry that some of that stuff was my reality. I was angry about that. I had a right to be angry, and what I should have done was weaponized my anger to put me in the position to solve problems. But what I let people do for a long time is used the pejorative of the angry black man to subtract my anger from me, make me feel that if I was angry as a black man in America, that I was wrong. Whereas if you are a black man in America and you are paying attention, there’s almost no way to not be angry, right? Absolutely, especially if you’re a black woman in America sent, there’s almost no way to not be angry. So I think that, um, after a while we understood that may be playing nice. Wasn’t the best way to do anything like we watched President Obama, the leader of the free world, endure uncommon criticism and disrespect from people who he was over. Name me another time during the State of the Union that someone yelled down and called the president a liar. Never e. I would have had him beheaded. E kidding,

[0:58:47 Peniel] we’ll tell. Are refusing,

[0:58:48 Van] right? No, I’m definitely kidding, but I’m just saying, like I’m the leader. Who are you? But there’s that man believes he’s better than President Obama because he’s white. How can you looking at that? Or the The Arizona governor pointing to his face on on a tarmac like, How can you look at that and not be mad? That anger is useful? It’s not to be misplaced. It’s not to go out there and hurt anybody who didn’t earn it is not to hurt anyone, but it’s useful. It is useful because you talk it out with your brothers and your sisters and brothers and sisters. I mean anybody that you can fellowship with. If you could fellowship with someone who doesn’t have black skin, that person is your brother or your sister. If their whole orderly understanding your, um, your experience and willing to help that person is your brother or your sister. So it’s helpful when you fellowship with them. It’s helpful to drive you to build a better America, and it’s helpful when you need to destroy something. When I say destroy something, I’m not talking about anybody shop or anything like that. I’m talking about destroying the structures, that ad to the oppression of black people. I am intimately acquainted with my anger, my anger. I play basketball with my anger. I control my anger, but I’m not giving it back to America. Dr. Joseph. Okay, with I’m not giving it back when there’s nothing to be angry about anymore. I’m not gonna be angry anymore.

[1:00:19 Peniel] All right, well, you know, I wanna have one last question. Just about hope. Um, do you feel hopeful, Van in terms of, like, you know, the future? What the next 10 years will bring with the next year will bring the 2020 election. Do you feel hope?

[1:00:36 Van] I just hopeful. I’m excited. Um, I’m excited because of the talent that we have of the voices that we have right three weeks ago, I haven’t read any of your books happy and excited that you’re here. Someone has done this work that I can follow in the footsteps of somebody like you and just read your thoughts and that’ll make me better and more equipped you know what I mean. And I’m happy that when I reached out to people so many of s o. Many other people knew exactly who you were, so that those people who I was confided in they were doing work that I wasn’t doing. And so I’m happy that people that that there are so many people that are experts in this so many people that are so devoted to this. So like man Tamika Mallory moved to Kentucky, moved to Kentucky. Now I’m not saying that we haven’t had the L. A Baker’s and the rest ins and Evers and the people in the past. We’ve always had it. But I’m also happy that those people and their spirit, the spirit of their advocacy and activism, has been reincarnated into a whole new generation now because I feel like with that, plus some of the economic base that we might we might have now that maybe we didn’t have them with some other things. We’re in a good space to get some problems solved. And even if we don’t even if I don’t see it, I’ll never lose hope. Because if I lose hope, then all I have is my anger and then you gotta You’re in no hope leaves a human deficit that nothing can feel. So for me, I’m angry. But I’m also equally hopeful. Not to me. Makes a comprehensive man a comprehensive black man and a comprehensive member of the American commune.

[1:02:30 Peniel] All right, that’s great. I mean, we’ll leave it right there. We’ve been talking with Van Lathan. Really wonderful conversation. I’ve learned so much and enjoyed the conversation so much and Van is on to podcast is out spoken One of our thought leaders on sports and culture and politics and blackness. Hey, works for the ringer Hey co host the podcast Higher Learning. And he also co host the podcast Way down in the hole with Jemele Hill. Higher learning is what Rachel Lindsay and way down in the Hole is about one of my favorite shows of all time. The wire, All the pieces matter All the pieces fit And we’ve been talking about all the pieces about blackness of American popular culture in this age of black lives. Matter with Van Lathan Van Thank you so much for coming on our show. It’s been a great conversation. I look forward to following your career in your path.

[1:03:25 Van] Appreciate your brother. Everybody, go get the sword and shield right now. It’s really fantastic. I’m mentioning again. It really is a fantastic book. Get the sword and shield right now. I loved it. I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much

[1:03:41 Peniel] I appreciate you thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel. Joseph, that’s P e n i e l j o s e ph and our website csrd.lbj.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Racing Democracies on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.