Ep. 46 – America’s Racial Reckoning: A Conversation with Trymaine Lee

[0:00:07 Peniel] welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice, and citizenship.

[0:00:21 Peniel] On today’s podcast, we are very pleased and honored to have with us Trymaine Lee, who is a journalist, MSNBC correspondent, the podcast host of Into America. He’s been part of the 1619 project that’s a Pulitzer Prize winning project. He’s a Pulitzer Prize, an Emmy Award winning journalist, Um, who’s covered, UH, race and democracy and politics and social movements for The New York Times, The Huffington Post, ah wide variety of outlets and now is a national MSNBC correspondent and host of the very popular and important podcast into America On. In 2020 he launched the race Report, a special MSNBC, Siri’s that explores the intersection between race and politics this election season. So tra mainly brother Tremaine Lee welcome to race and democracy.

[0:01:13 Trymaine] Good brother, Thank you for having managed this. The pleasures is absolutely mine.

[0:01:18 Peniel] I want to get right into it because, really, yesterday we had the funeral of Congressman John Lewis, one of the civil rights heroes and icons of the 20th century. Um, in addition to President Obama’s extraordinary eulogy. We had some long marchers and veterans like, uh, the Reverend Jim Lawson give a rousing eulogy, and we had these different black women and men. Speakers from the movement gives such great tributes to John Lewis. I want to just start by, uh, asking about what do you think of John Lewis’s legacy right now in this year 2020 which has been such a watershed historical year?

[0:01:59 Trymaine] Yeah, man, it has been said before. When I think of John Lewis, I think a mountain of a man and that we actually shared time and space on this Earth with a man like John Lewis. But it’s also a reminder that, you know, there are these giants that walk among us now that I think we take for granted. Think about Diane Nash, Dr Bernard Lafayette, right? So many others who we could be going to for consultation, for advice for wisdom we should be giving them, You know, all of the flowers for the way they have help, um, elevate America, which so it’s so often disappointed us right on. That’s probably an understatement, but men and women who really pushed, um, to make America live up to what it said it always was. And I think in this moment of racial reckoning in 2020 where for the first time, many Americans are grappling with nature of racism, the system that bind us from cradle to grave, right, um, are are seeing a bit of, um, you know, the brutality and violence that police and law enforcement often heap upon our communities. They’re seeing it. But now they’re also feeling it right, because we see this kind of cross racial cross cultural coalition forming around the idea of a black life on the value of black life on George Floyd’s death. Um, and it’s It’s wild to me that John Lewis died in this moment, the ongoing struggle for voting rights. Um, but then, sadly, because of covert 19, I don’t think we can fully celebrate um, the life of John Lewis and mourn his death the way that I think we would another time. So 20 twenties. It’s a wild one, man.

[0:03:38 Peniel] What did you think of President Obama’s eulogy? Especially talked about a Voting Rights Act to be named for John Lewis that would end voter suppression. Hey compared the current president’s policies, sending in federal agents to suppress political rebellion in Portland. To George Wallace, the white supremacists and racial segregation is in a way, we saw President Barack Obama. Former President Barack Obama, black America’s forever president, unleashed an unbound on race during that 40-minute eulogy. What did you What did you make of that?

[0:04:12 Trymaine] You know? First of all, it is always and this is a non partisan statement. Um, it is always refreshing to see President Obama and to hear his voice, especially the stark contradiction between the president we have in the White House now and President Obama, right? And I think in his remarks he drew that kind of stark divide between the America of now the America of President Trump that in so many ways has embodied the fervor of George Wallace and the America of John Lewis and the America that John Lewis fought for and bled for and was attacked for, um, and at every turn, he actually believed in that America could be better than what it is. Andi think that was just striking the the idea that he drew a clear line between the spirit of George Wallace and the current inhabitant of the White House and what we see happening now, Um, I think it was the words and the framing that a lot of folks need right now, Especially heading into this high stakes very important election saying, like, which America do you wanna live in? Right. And as we lay John Lewis to rest, the one that he fought for or the one the current occupant is fighting for toe make it. And you know, you can’t see the quotes around but make America great again, right? Do you wanna be in the make America great again, America or the one that John Lewis fought and bled for? Andi continued to fight, fight for in 30 plus years in Congress. I think that was just It was striking because we don’t hear from him hardly enough. Right? And then he comes out in this moment and just connect the dots and and basically was a call to action.

[0:05:53 Peniel] Now I want to talk about this current moment, as you just alluded to this year of 2020 this year of a pandemic with the cove in 19 Crisis. Three year of George Floyd, Uh, and the tragic murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis PD That led to the largest social protests Social justice movements in American history. Over 4700 separate protests. 7 to 26 million self identify participants in protests. We’ve never seen anything like this. Um, you know, you’ve been a journalist for a long time. You’ve covered Ferguson. You’ve covered BLM. You’ve covered elections. Uh, tell me, as a journalist is somebody who does this for a living. Your vocation. What do you make of this? We’re only seven months into the year. But have you? Have you ever seen anything like this read about anything like this would be? I think we’re all still in a state of shock about everything. Shelter in place. But what do you make of this year?

[0:06:57 Trymaine] You know, I think this is the confluence of things, right? And this intersection, all the layers and every, you know, every moment there is another thing to pile on top. And I think that is why we actually saw the response to George Floyd’s death that we hadn’t seen, um, in the wake of other tragic killings by law enforcement especially, but I’ve certainly never seen anything like this. I mean, let’s not forget that we were going through an impeachment, right? Just how many months ago, Right? Like five months. Four months? I don’t even know. It seems like a lifetime ago whenever it was, but from impeachment and even going back further, I think. And this wasn’t necessarily, um, you know, one of the more toxic things to come about in recent history. But you think about coming off of 16. 19 and the year of return and the year of like, reminding ourselves of who we all are, right who we are at the descendants of enslaved people and who America has been in that machine That was just, uh, devouring our bodies and have been devouring our bodies physically, spiritually, Um, legislatively, the the entire time, right. And so we were thinking about these things and wrestling with these things. And then you have the political unrest and the impeachment and the Russia stuff and all the incendiary remarks coming down from the White House and all the racism and all the rise in hate crimes. Right? You have, you know, white supremacists gunning down Jews inside their place of worship. You have all kinds of wild stuff happening. And then Kovar 19 and the sickness spreads and the sickness of our politics are also spreading. And the lies and the you know, the misinformation and disinformation and the waves of all that then, ah mod are very is killed by two white vigilantes. Then Briana Taylor is gunned down after the police kicked down her door. Meanwhile, the do they were looking for was already in custody. And they charged her boyfriend when he went to defend defend. Um, you know Briana himself. They initially charged him and then tow watch the last minutes of George Floyd’s life. I think you know, the convulsing of America in that moment was because of all that we’ve been through. And it’s hard to even put into words because even before this just covering the politics of the day, there were fires around every corner, right? Like, where do we even begin with the presidency of the United States right now? Right in the politics around and all that stuff. And then here we are. I mean, I don’t know what normal even looks like anymore, right? Can we imagine a future that is clear of scandal was clear of violence, even though there are glimmers, um, that of hope that there is some progress being made on the like law enforcement front. And there’s a policy and the MBA started again. You see black lives matter on the court and the names on the back. I think this is all of that would’ve been unthinkable because we’re in this, like, kind of upside down world now, Um, but I don’t see I don’t even know. How do we see our way out of this? What is what is normal? Look

[0:09:46 Peniel] like you contributed to the 16 19 project and that project was conceived by the Pulitzer Prize winner and MacArthur Genius award winning journalist Nicole Hannah Jones. And I want us to talk about 16 19 as a segue. Andi then move forward into BLM because that project was so radical but has received the Pulitzer Prize and radical in the sense of wanting toe speak truth to power, about American history, racial slavery and how racial slavery produced a caste system that impacts us all. Now, whether it comes to health care, law enforcement, residential and public school segregation, um, real estate, just the whole the whole panorama. Um, so talk to me about that project because that project has both been embraced by not just progressives but the mainstream. But then you had one senator tried to introduce legislation. Ah, Senator, to prevent that project from being taught. Who said that slavery was a necessary evil. Talk to me about that because I think that 16 19 and what journalists, black journalists like Nicole Hannah Jones like yourself. Obviously, coats and others have been so important to this moment. But in 2020 it’s almost reaching this apex of utilizing journalism, utilizing their talents and their skills. Um, in a very transformative way for this pedagogical intervention that’s not partisan, but that’s deeply meditative. That’s investigative. But that also has a moral urgency. What Dr King called the fierce urgency of Now you

[0:11:27 Trymaine] know, you mentioned the bill introduced by Senator Tom Cotton that would defund school District’s that proposed to teach the 16 19 project, and I read through the bill, and it’s like section A number three. It’s like it says something about slavery not being, ah, founding ideal of this country. Now there’s a lot of wrestling and a lot of perspective and a lot of vantage points. You can view history, Um, but to take that step to say that slavery was not a founding ideal. Now again, there has been debate whether the Revolutionary War was in part for Thio to maintain slavery and on all of that. But it’s it’s almost laughable. But it’s amazing that from the highest you know, seats in Congress to the White House, 16 19 project has reached their doorstep, and it has infuriated them. And I think, in part because it brings into clarity and stark relief that there has been a continuum from 16 19, when the first enslaved Africans were dragged to the shores of what would become America through, you know, enslavement and reconstruction than the backlash of redemption and through the civil rights era. Still, now, right, it is shaped every aspect of our life in America. Every institution has been touched by the enslavement the great wealth of this country enjoys. Aziz, you will know in many of your listeners will know derived in no small part, in fact, in large part due to the forced labor camps and the stripping after that of black wealth and to be part of that project. Um, it has made me proud as a journalist. Is made me even more proud as a black journalist because so many of us walk in the footsteps of, ah, great figures like Ida B. Wells and you think about the era of great lynching and the bloodshed And that this woman, this journalist, this black woman, this boy, black journalists went out there and showing a light down in the darkest of dark places. Um, fearlessly right, knowing that, you know her work could get her killed or get other people killed. She pushed forward. And I think when when Nicole Hannah Jones approached me to do it at first I said, Nah, I said, It’s going to be so much work and I have time and it’s something that has to be done right, like, and I really want to give it justice. And she looked at me, said, Trust me, if you don’t, if you don’t do this, you’re going to regret it, right? And we need to do this right. And like, Come on, man, stop playing. Let’s go! And I looked in her eyes and I believed her because Nicole Hannah Jones is a genius, and she also is fearless. And, you know, when she when she tells you something, you gotta listen. Um, and so to take part in that was amazing. But I think it was it was important. And I think one of the most important aspect of this which has been the source of the of the most controversy, is that Nicole, in her opening piece when she connects back to her father and his service military and his pride in a flag in a country that never showed any much pride in him, it’s that America’s true founding was not in 17 76 but 16. 19 not just because it created the foundation for the American economy and all the institutions right that we could we could talk about, um but that it brought to this country the people whose descendents would push America to be the true democracy that it claimed it had been all along when those s so called founding fathers were writing, you know, they’re great pieces of work. I think they could be called fiction in many ways, right that all men were created equal and they owned people write the hypocrisy of it, um, and that it took black people in America toe push and fight. And we had never stopped pushing and fighting, right. We’re pushing and fighting from the very beginning and the idea that, um to many this is a revelation, but that it’s so attacked, so many people’s worldview in the view of themselves, in the view of race in America that the president has attacked 16 19, you have, ah, legion of conservatives who have come out attacking this work. Meanwhile, it wins. The Pulitzer is widely heralded. Um, and I think it just it sits up there among the most important works of American journalism, Period. I think I was having this conversation with someone the other day, and they were like, There are a few pieces. You got the Pentagon papers. You have a few other works of journalism, but I think this one changed the game.

[0:15:58 Peniel] No, I absolutely agree with you. I want to talk about black lives matter, because I think BLM has done, um, in popular discourse and political discourse. What 16 19 did intellectually and pedagogic Lee in terms of changing the game, I want to talk about BLM and sort of these black women who have founded BLM. And what do we think now for this generation? Because, like you said earlier in our conversation, we have John Lewis is among us, and Diane Nash is Bernard Lafayette among us, and some of them are young Tamika Mallory and Brittany Pack Net and Alicia Garza Opal Timidity. Patrice Kahn colors. What do we make of one Want us to discuss black lives matter in historical context? How first erupts in 2013 is the hashtag and now, just seven years later, because of this year, the intersectional justice that BLM has talked about. You have even corporate America rhetorically saying Black lives matter and we’re gonna parts through that We’re gonna parts through that. But tell me, what were your thoughts initially on BLM And how did you see them as a journalist? When when it erupts, especially by 2014 15 after Michael Brown after Eric Garner, what did you think this movement could or would accomplish? That’s

[0:17:18 Trymaine] a That’s a big one. I’m I think, in the in the very beginning, um, the hashtag black lives matter emerged after the killing of Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida by George Zimmerman. You know, wanna be cop who confront straight by Martin kills him who all he had was, you know, a bag of Skittles and Arizona iced tea. In that case, um, you know, for many younger people, they you know, that was at this point in 2012. Now, So eight years ago, um, that really was our Emmett till right to see this young, handsome, hopeful young man black like us. Um, gunned down by, um, you know someone who stalked him and law enforcement says Wait for law enforcement after you called 91 Do not follow him, right. And then we way. We can’t forget that. Not long after, when President Obama was pushed to say something about the case and the death of Trayvon Martin, he said if I had a son, he could’ve been Trayvon, and that was it. I think in part we get Donald Trump, not just because of the remarks that Donald Trump may. I mean, President Obama made about Donald Trump at the White House correspondents dinner, which many say that’s the start of it all. But when you had, um Barack Obama connecting explicitly to the black community and a young black man gunned down who conservatives and many white folks just viewed as a thug. Um, we cannot understate the impact of Trayvon Martin’s killing. And then the acquittal of George Zimmerman in that case that he walks free to this day is still puzzling, to say the least. Um, but for black lives matter emerged from that case, Um, when we all saw so much of ourselves in Trayvon Martin and they started to push in a way that we hadn’t seen in generations, um, years earlier, I think it may be 2005 or six. We had the case of the Jena Six in Jena, Louisiana, when a group of young black high school students were, you know, they beat up on their white classmates. They were charged with attempted murder, and we saw this Ah, mass mobilization, Right? It was big then, but it was way down in Louisiana, right? And it kind of blew over. What we saw come out of Trayvon Martin was big and to see black lives matter emerge, they were organizing they were disrupting. Um, you know, they were pushing the way that many of us had never seen. Right? And

[0:19:33 Peniel] why do you think that is? Tremaine? Is that is that social media? Is that youth? What? What’s the cause of that? Certainly black women were at the center of this and they were talking about intersectional. There’s a lot of black queer feminists who are at the center of this trans, uh, gay black men like Darnell Moore and others like, what was what was happening at that moment. We know about the external pressures, but internally within the black community, Why did this movement erupt? I

[0:20:01 Trymaine] think it was social media, right? We hadn’t seen this kind of national organizing effort before, right? And it was easy as a click away. Um, I think sadly in so many ways that Trayvon Martin, um, was what you call kind of a perfect victim. And I say that with all due respect, but he was just young and fresh faced, and he had two parents committed to pushing for justice. And you had Ben Crump involved, right? So you had all the factors coming together and then social media and then just struck the right moment in terms of the coalition’s that you mentioned, Um, I think it’s pop differently. I think it just I think in this day and age it was when you think about Emmett Till’s photo and his mother, Mamie, in that open casket. And we just saw so much of ourselves in Travon and I think that was different. Um, and also you have black journalists myself. Tallahassee coats A bunch of folks Charles Blow pushing, pushing, pushing. I wrote something every single day for like, three months, maybe 2.5, literally. Tallahassee was using his platform at the Atlantic Charles Blow in New York Times and a whole bunch about the Michelle cinder emerged as a young journalist. Pushing, Um, I think all those factors came together in a way that we had never seen before. But but to your question earlier, even then everyone was saying. But what policy? What does BLM pushing for right there organizing their whatever. Then, two years later, after trade bomb was killed, you had Mike Brown, and that’s when you had the anger with Trey. Bonnie was sadness, and at least someone was arrested, right? And even though the trial didn’t go the way many folks hoped there was some Justice Mike Brown, his body out there baking in the sun for four hours, right? Very grassroots anger, actual legitimate anger and then the organizing of BLM, harnessing some of that anger and that rage right and started making policy demands. Um, that still, it was still early, though. Like what? What are the possibilities? Because BLM still look like to a lot of white folks as they do today. You know, it’s nothing but, you know, looters, writers, thugs, right? Mike Brown was a thug. I saw. They had to say He’s a thug, thug, thug, thug, thug, thug, right? Um, and then we see where we are now. I think it’s a shock that you had on the court of the National Basketball Association. Black lives, matter I and even in the polling and I don’t have the latest polling, but I think it’s either half or a slight majority of people who view BLM positively. This is, you know, I think it was unthinkable. And so I think early on it sounds great as an organizing tool, and the sisters who created it, um, you know, should be applauded as modern day heroes, right? Um, but I don’t know if anyone expected this. Not again. Many will wonder. What is it? A protest. If everybody co signs, right? Is it a protest if they’re letting you do it? If they saw a Sprite commercial yesterday during the n B. A. And it’s like, this is kind of who we are, it’s like I don’t know, I’m not. I’m just a journalist. I’m just an observer. But I think there’s a lot of people who might be skeptical, and we’re really, truly wonder. Well, what is next? You have the attention you have buying from a lot of folks and a lot of people who you would never have buying from before, including a lot of white folks in suburban white folks and white women. Um, and some white dudes were coming over, Um, but what next? And I think we’ll see what’s next.

[0:23:21 Peniel] Well, from that perspective, it’s great to talk about. Let’s talk about some of the policies because I still want to shift back to 2013 14, because the BLM, by 2016, comes out with a set of policy agendas. But within the black freedom struggle, there were tensions, right? We have an older guard. Uh, that is from that heroic period of the civil rights movement, like Congressman Lewis, who embraced BLM, especially at the end of his life. But they were wondering what these young people were about. We have some people like what Dr William Barber, whose continuing on with Dr King’s poor people’s campaign, who certainly has embraced that that political radicalism. But some of the young BLM activists were more connected, um, and interested in in things like, uh, reparations And, um, you know, no bail. You know Kalief Browder. We saw what happened to Kalief Browder in New York City. Killed, um, really by Rikers Island, Even if they’re saying it’s death by suicide. Um uh, let’s talk about the tensions within the civil rights community on these attentions. I think that are still around today. Some of this has been papered over by the success of BLM, and everybody sort of hopping on that bandwagon. But there was some criticism by an older, church bound generation that initially looked at what BLM was doing with the disruptive, nonviolent civil disobedience shutting down highways in Washington, D. C. I was in Boston when they shut down the highway in Boston. Major highways Miami, Washington. Throughout the United States. Let’s talk about those tensions. Why? Why would there be in older guard, including some black elected officials who didn’t necessarily come out in support of BLM when it wasn’t popular? When it was, Let’s say, in quotes misunderstood by white folks and by racist, whether they’re active or passive Racists saying that this is about disrespecting our police, saying all lives matter. Blue lives matter. Colin Kaepernick is Exhibit A of somebody who was castigated for kneeling in peaceful protest in support of BLM and also in defiance against racial injustice. So let’s talk about that. Even within the black movement. Why was there at times a disconnect between BLM and an older generation of civil rights activists?

[0:25:46 Trymaine] There’s a saying that I’ve heard ah lot in recent years, and basically it’s when people say, you know, backed on slavery. I would have did this back during the civil rights era did this. You have been doing exactly what you’re doing now, right? So whatever you’re doing now, you would have been doing then and so let’s think about, um, you know the home going for John Lewis. And there was that moment when former president Bill Clinton goes to the lectern and he’s, you know, praising John Lewis. He was a friend and recounting what he had, you know his life and saying, You know, long before he the march on Washington and the Freedom Riders after after the Freedom he joined Freedom Writers. But he was the head of Snake, and he lost the election to Stokely Carmichael. Right? And there’s that moment when he says, And then you know the for a while the movement Wetmore towards Stokely and it almost heard that I was like, What is he for me as a negative thing? And he was right. He’s like, No, it za piece. It’s Nonviolence. It’s what John Lewis represented. Meeting. I’ll use violence to keep upon yourself to make an example of what this country is doing and treating black folks, right? And so when you think about, um, during the civil rights era and again, you know this more than most of us, right there were those church folks said, No, no, no, no, just slow and steady. Don’t make any waves. Don’t get yourself hurt, right? Some of them could have purely been out of, like they will kill you, keep your head down and live to fight another day. Right? And some also have been church folks and and And that, you know that set are very comfortable in the system because they get to be close to the house, right? And I don’t mean necessarily a pejorative way, but they get to be close to the the economic interests. They get to be close because they’re safe. They don’t. They don’t pose any true disruption, Disruption, disruption to the actual system. Those young folks, though, who are blockading streets. Those young folks who are, um, you know, boycotting Busses and boycotting businesses and and really putting pressure on the system, let alone those that follow them. Or, um, you know, Milton Doctrine That said, you know, if if if you touch us, you take take your arm off, let alone that on DSO I think that tension has existed long before black lives matter. But I saw that I remember in the first, and I was in Ferguson. Mike Brown was killed on Saturday and I was in Ferguson on Monday morning because I’ve actually been in Ferguson six months earlier writing a piece about education, right? Um and so I was familiar with, you know, a lot of the players on the ground. So I was, like, their immediately because I knew everyone. And I was like, I noticed community Let me jump in there. And I remember that first week or the end of the second week when you had young folks just I have never seen a more about a group of activists than I saw in Ferguson in ST Louis, Missouri. Right to this day, they were just shutting everything down. I don’t know if you remember this, but they were breaking up brunches, right? They were having, like, remember

[0:28:39 Peniel] the brunch break. And a lot of white people felt so, so put out. Exactly. I can’t believe they broke up and they invaded my brunch. I

[0:28:46 Trymaine] can’t believe I didn’t get the extra holiday holiday sauce. Yeah, they were, but they were shutting malls down. They were just so about it. And I remember, um, the c p at the time, ahead of strong, strong young leaders, strong young leadership. But I remember there was this big gathering in one of the arenas or civic centers, whereas the the CPI and church folks. You had the young, young, more rebellious protesters and activists. And and I remember I think it was a young brother named TEF Poe, who was, um, and activist and a rapper was basically grabbed the mike and said, Where were you? All were being when we were in take tear gas. Where were you all when were shot by rubber bullets? Where were you when we’re shutting it down? Where were you when we demanded the value? Our lives, Alright, they weren’t in the street. And so that chasm that has always been there, um, was brought in stark relief as BLM was really, you know, harnessing a lot of strength. And I think that, you know, again it might exist purely because when you’re older, you a little more conservative and you’re thinking safety and peace first. But it’s, you know, it was clearly drawn.

[0:29:50 Peniel] Now, when we think about where we’re at today, I think that what’s been remarkable to see with the BLM protests of 2020 and I’m here in Austin, Texas, is the aspect policy wise of defund the police prison abolition. Um, what do we to make of that? And when activists say defund the police, they’re using it as a phrase to talk about a new abolition movement that will invest in poor black communities and communities of color and divest from institutions that punish and imprison and incarcerate and arrest and brutalized black Children, black women, black men, black families. So this idea and we’ve seen, uh, the mayor of New York City announced that $1 billion of the police budget was going to be taken out and reinvested in communities in New York City that are disadvantaged, uh, in L. A 150 million in Austin. A much smaller amount. But what are we to make of that as a But when we think about what’s next the policy agenda in this year of 2020 obviously, at the federal level, uh, Joe Biden, who is the, uh, you know, presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party convention still has not happened yet. Um has talked about more money for training, which many BLM activists rejected and repudiated as tone deaf. But at the local level, we’ve really seen one aspect of the policy changes that BLM activists have been talking about for years really manifest itself in the BLM 2.0 moment.

[0:31:24 Trymaine] I think the messaging is so important here. And I think there are a lot of people who are taking advantage of the access to information and access to people who are so eloquent on these issues, right, social media and otherwise, because the beginning defund the police. You know, it’s scaring folks, right? That means you’re getting rid of police. Who do you call? And I think what’s been very interesting is hearing those who are police abolitionists or just believe that it’s Police departments have become so bloated and swollen with taxpayer dollars, Um, that they’re almost there, not beholding to anyone or anything. And to be able to flip that and say one, it’s a waste of money. If there killing people for allegedly having a fake, you know, counterfeit $20 bill, as in the case of George Floyd or gunning down it, Tamir Rice, right? We could say we ultimately, if we were to provide the resource, is to communities that are most marginalized, most vulnerable. Then you won’t need the police right because not like the people who are being ground up in the system are all violent criminals, right? People are hungry, People are addicted. People are traumatized, right? So why not redirect that money on the front end? And you won’t need the police, right? And they’ll say, And again, I think this has been such an important part of the messaging around. This is saying that police don’t, you know, stop criminal activity there. Just punitive. It’s after it happened, right? And so I think, by drawing those distinctions, But also I think people have because of this, people have come out of the woodwork and you forced the true sides now, right. So are you gonna be on the side of, um, those? And again, this is a non partisan comment. Um, some of those despicable police unions, those police unions are bad, bad, bad news, right? They stymied progress. They are. They released some of the most incendiary rhetoric all across the country who still they have an interest in making sure the status quo was maintained. But when you think about we talk about that divide between BLM and the church, you think about what it means to be a progressive. When you think about a Joe Biden. Now who many folks reporting that saying no, no, he’s never been a progressive, right? He’s aligned himself a certain way because he wants to win this election. But he’s never really been a progressive, and some people point to this and say, Look, he still supports. You know, he’s still supporting, uh, this institution that has, uh, done little but wreak havoc and violence in our communities. Um, but I think that this is one of the biggest ones. Just like the embrace of BLM. Generally three idea. That three idea of defund the police is actually spreading. But then again, there are some actual abolitionists who really do believe, though, because some have corrected, they know it doesn’t mean give it to the police. It means redirect funding. Some people are saying No, I actually mean get rid of the police.

[0:34:07 Peniel] Well, certainly, certainly. Angela Davis is a prison abolitionist who believes that prisons should be, um, we shouldn’t have prisons. Eso um the defund, the police. It’s interesting. I haven’t I haven’t heard. I haven’t seen the abolish complete police a definition of defund the police e

[0:34:28 Trymaine] I was talking to someone who said no, ultimately, like, this is just the first step, right? This this is No, no, no. You start redirecting resources. And but then But she also framed, in a way, the woman I was talking to in a way that you won’t need Them s Oh, yes, we want to get rid of them because hopefully we get to a point where we just don’t need them because our communities are healthy and people are. We minimize the trauma and we heal the wounds and we grow right and we become the kind of society. And it’s a throwback to John Lewis, a real beloved community, right? A beloved American thing where we get to the point where you don’t send men and women with guns to respond to someone in the in the midst of, ah, psychotic breakdown, right? You don’t send people with guns toe to respond to, you know, whatever it is now,

[0:35:10 Peniel] you talked earlier about the MBA and black lives matter and what they just did. Everybody taking the knee foot. Baseball players have done the same thing. Uh, the commissioner of football right after George Floyd said that black lives matter after Patrick Mahomes and some of the biggest players did a video that said Black Lives Matter and they could have been. Briana Taylor and Ahmad are very what do you What are we to make of this kind of cultural moment where NASCAR publicly at least repudiates the Confederate flag? We’ve seen all these monuments and citadels of white supremacy at times literally come tumbling down, right? But we’ve also seen this lead to real showdowns. Uh, the latest is in Portland, where federal Homeland Security agents, a lot of them mast with no I d. Have been used to protect courthouses, protect private property but physically brutalized protesters and harass protesters. And we’ve seen throughout this BLM moment at times police, especially in Buffalo, where they pushed this elderly man and cracked his skull. We’ve seen huge state sanctioned violence against demonstrators. So what do we what do we to make of that? Because I think by the time we try to clear the wreckage and the triumphs of this year, so much has to be disentangled. But I think so much will be for gotten except by the reporters. The historians the people who are doing this and cataloging this. But I think the the violence that we continue the witness is easily one of the striking things that I’ve observed.

[0:36:47 Trymaine] I think I think we get here because of that violence and because when you look out at some of these crowds and you think Portland, which has a long history of both white supremacy but also, you know, really aggressive, protesting, um peaceful and non peaceful right. But I think because of that violence being heaped on a lot of a lot of white people who have joined the marches, I think people are seeing it a little differently that it’s just, you know, some black folks who are mourning a thug and come out to break stuff right? That’s their image of it, right? It’s aimless anger, But when you see some of the crowd saying, No, no, no, no, this isn’t right, right and this isn’t who we should be and then they’re met with Some are just a taste of the police violence that black folks get every single day in America in one form or another. I think that matters. I also think though, and This is a a smaller wrinkle that hasn’t been discussed much. I think it’s easy to do, and you have cover when there’s no crowd right there. Nobody in the baseball stadiums will be booing you when you’re skipper takes a knee right and baseball, especially I think it’s been NASCAR is NASCAR, right? That’s pure explicit. But baseball is America’s, you know, traditional sport. And so to see, um, you know, teams and the coaches skippers taking a knee. I think that is a step. And I think where they’ve struggled, unlike with basketball, especially and even with football, is that you have very few black American players. What you have is black folks from the Caribbean, and so I think that cultural pressure that you have in other spaces, you know, pushing, pushing, pushing management in the front front office. Um, I don’t think you get that in baseball, but I think in this moment where there is wide consensus that something is wrong and you have, I’m sure many of their nieces and nephews, sons and daughters, grandchildren out there pushing and being educated in ways because now I think about I haven’t checked the best sellers list in a few days. When you think about the works that have risen to the top, folks are hungry. How to be an anti racism stand in the beginning and all the stuff and, you know, and your book is out there doing really well, right? It was like people are hungry for this information and it’s okay, toe want to inquire. It’s okay to rethink some things. And I think that’s where you’re in a space now, where again they have covered now because the consensus And I think what’s also interesting watching, um, you know, the first NBA game, Um, and that there are a lot of people who will never be exposed to any of this messaging, um, in any other way except when they turn because they’ll watch, You know, brothers jump high, run fast, you know, shoot, catch all that stuff. But it’s been sent. It had been sanitized for so long, even in the n b A, which is it seems to be more progressive than you know what? We see the plantation system of football. Um, but to see black lives matter on the court and the messaging on the backs of their jerseys. I think it is actually a promising step. They say you know what? We’re going to normalize this messaging, normalize these ideas, normalize the iconography. Iconography, Right. Um, you know it zits surprising in some ways, but I think it’s, um it also is that once brave? But then it’s also once you have, you know, Malcolm X on a stamp. Is that the same thing? Because you don’t love Malcolm X, right? Did not at all.

[0:40:01 Peniel] Yeah. Okay, the elections. How does race and you’re doing the whole SYRIZA specials on this for MSNBC. But the election is a few months away. The election of 2020 November 3rd. How does race the pandemic not gonna ask you for a prediction, but how is this gonna play out in terms of we know that there’s voter suppression. President Obama just disgusted at John Lewis’s funeral. Um, how is this going to play out when you’ve got a sitting president? Who says mailing bad balloting is no good? Absentee balloting is good, but mailing mail in ballots even though he’s voted through mail. But how is this gonna work out just for the country with really the most important generation, the most important election of in multiple generations in American and world history. What’s house race going toe Gonna figure into this?

[0:40:58 Trymaine] Um, where is it? Not gonna figure in? Right? Um and even like, it’s like, where do we begin? I think was just, um, yesterday or two days ago. Where President Trump in his message when he repealed some, you know, fair housing policy. You know, you good folks living the dream out there, suburbs don’t worry about low income housing. Thank me later. You know, a matter of fact. Thank me. Now you’re welcome. Hey, literally say, I think you said you’re welcome. I think, um and we know that’s not even Ah, dog was That’s a human whistle. He means black people. He means people of color, right? That’s what he means. Um, when you think about the idea of Oh, hey also said, why don’t Maybe we should think about postponing the election. Yes, way

[0:41:41 Peniel] he doesn’t have the authority

[0:41:42 Trymaine] to do unfortunately doesn’t have the authority. But then we think about the voter suppression and how that is manifested in places like Atlanta, Georgia. When you have people waiting in line to exercise their right to vote standing in rain four hours. Think about somebody, Spaces that even before Cove in 19 kind of shrunk the number of of polling places in many communities you already had local state secretary of state’s already, um, stripping them in predominantly black and brown and poorer and more vulnerable communities already erecting these barriers. And then you have the threat of covert 19, which is disproportionately impacted. Black and brown people, especially right. Um, you have the messaging from the top? Uh, e don’t even know where to begin. But then you also have And this is one aspect that we should be looking looking into a little bit more is how has this moment of racial reckoning and the protests following George Floyd and all the push and all the corporate push and all the normalizing the idea that black life matters? How will that impact? Um, the election, right. We already see Donald Trump’s polling numbers slipping, and we also know that any time there is progress, especially racial progress, there is that great backlash. And so here we are, with Donald Trump hunkering down with his human whistles, right, All he has the flares for the cultural war, saying It’s now or never I need you, right, our backs against the wall here And how many other folks will come out saying like, You know what? They’ll hear the words of President Obama and say that we want to live in, Um, you know, world that is is still being shaped by the spirit of George Wallace or, ah, hopeful one that lives in the spirit of John Lewis, right? I think that’s where we are now. It will be interesting to see, but America is America, right? If anything is true, we have a track record here. Um, so I’m not sure how it will turn out, but it’s the stakes are even higher. But the confidence of Kobe 19. George Floyd, the president being the president Um, the attack on democracy, the voter suppression efforts that have been going on for so long at this point, we’re talking about about 13 years now because they started slightly before the voter ID stuff. And Kris Kobach, you know, the architect of so many of these state laws restricting the voter I d laws and the Jerry Mannering, um then you know ramped up during the Obama era. And then here we are with this president. That’s a lot.

[0:44:08 Peniel] Tremaine. Tremaine, you’re so passionate about what you do. What inspired you to become a journalist?

[0:44:13 Trymaine] Um, I really do believe that I was called by the spirit of of the Ida B. Wells of our world. And I think it’s the injustices on dykan. Remember, um, sitting on the sofa with my mother and I might have been seven or eight and watching the Philadelphia Police Department bomb O Sage Avenue in Philly. The move bombing. And I remember seeing a little black Children running naked from the flames. And I remember watching Mississippi burning with my mother, and I remember the books that she would give me. And I just remember seeing, um, this world at once attacking us at every turn but us rising and telling our story and pushing and fighting every step of the way. And I knew I wanted to, from a early age tell our stories because I always felt like I was a storyteller and a writer, And the longer I’ve been doing this, I could continue to grab skills, and I continue to be curious about, um, the world and the way we live and the way we die and the differences in the way we live and die. And the same way Ida B. Wells shown that light in that dark space in those dark spaces. That’s what I try to dio. And I think I’m at once, um, burdened by a deep sadness in so many of our experiences here. And while some people can pretend that there was some breaking the continuum, I see clearly the way we live now is due directly connected toe our enslavement and directly connected to our second class citizenship and directly connected to the disenfranchisement and criminalization of our very bodies. There is no disconnect, right? And so I’m just pushed, pushed to tell these stories. Also, I want when the historians look back and the aliens come down and they’re trying to guard who we were. I want to make sure that my hand is on that because we have to tell our stories and not just our stories, the American story, from our perspective, because we to our Americans, you know, if I think when I was younger, I wrestled with that idea of a patriotism or not and how we’ve been treated. But then I think Nicole Hannah Jones, um, you know, articulated so clearly in her opening essay for 16 19 that we are among the truest of Americans because we shaped this democracy we forced it to be. It’s better self every step of the way and continue to do that. And so I think there is some pride in that, Um, so that’s the that’s That’s the nutshell. You got me fired up now, man, you got me fired up. But

[0:46:50 Peniel] my final question is, um do you feel hope? How do what do you feel about this time? The year is not over, But you’ve been one of the signal, um, reporters and journalists and investigators and public speakers, um, chronicling what’s happening, uh, to our nation and our world this year. And it’s a year of so much sadness on tragedy, but also so much joy and beauty simultaneously. So it’s transformative year. What do you feel?

[0:47:24 Trymaine] Yeah, you know, I I feel mostly, um I think hopefully is probably the best word. I have a small slice of cynicism in me because I see the forces at work. And I think the best way toe forsee the future is to look at the past right, because that will give us an indication of where we’re going. And so sometimes that’s scary, right? Um, but then when I see people, especially in this moment, standing up for what they believe in Andi think I’ve seen people willing to challenge their own belief systems. Right, Um, trying Thio actively and actually wrestle with who we are as Americans. That is very hopeful. Protest is hopeful because that means people want change. And it’s such a part of the American tradition and the black American tradition. Um, I do feel pretty hopeful. I believe that we will get through this, and I believe we will be different. I’m hoping, um, that we will be stronger and that we’re closer to that ideal. Um, that so many folks like John Lewis, um, fought and bled for, So I feel I feel pretty good. And we have, um, you know, space to tell these stories and having this conversation, right? We’re in a moment now. We can have this conversation, and we can openly and honestly talk about, um, white supremacy and violence and, you know, the caste system and the history and where we’ve been and where we’re going and has to black people having this conversation talk about hope and pain and the burdens of the trauma that we’ve inherited. This is this is a This is It’s an amazing time, man.

[0:49:02 Peniel] We’re gonna leave it right there. Thank you. That’s Ah, great way toe end our conversation with Tra, mainly, who is really one of most important journalist working in the United States of America. Right now he’s an MSNBC correspondent. He’s the host of the podcast into America. He’s a Pulitzer Prize and Emmy Award winning journalist, um, who also has a special MSNBC. Siri’s the Race report that explores the intersection between race and politics. And he is part of The New York Times Magazine’s Pulitzer Prize winning 1619 project, which has earned numerous well deserved awards and is a game changer for how we understand racial slavery from 1619 all the way to the present and the way in which it’s shaping all of our lives. So tra mainly truly, it’s been an honor. Thank you so much for this conversation.

[0:49:55 Trymaine] My brother Thank you. You are one of the smartest people in America, and it’s an honor for me to be on your show. So thank you, brother. Keep doing what you’re doing.

[0:50:04 Peniel] Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph, that’s P E N I E L J O S E P H and our website csrd.lbj.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Racing Democracies on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you