Ep. 39 – George Floyd, Racial Justice, and Hope: A Conversation with Michael Eric Dyson

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to Race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, Social justice and citizenship. Mhm. We are very, very pleased to have with us on our podcast Race and Democracy. Uh this week. Very special guest, Dr Michael eric Dyson. Uh Dr Dyson is a world renowned um public intellectual and scholar whose work um intersects at multiple disciplines, including african, american studies, religion, rhetoric, political science, philosophy, history, sociology, anthropology, women’s studies, um ethnography. So he’s really one of the most important intellectuals, not only of his generation, but in american history um and he is a professor, distinguished professor, university professor at Georgetown University. He’s the author of over 30 books and anthologies most recently, jay Z Made in America, but has written best selling books on tupac, Shakur Marvin, Gaye Malcolm, X. Martin Luther King. Jr is one of the deep scholars of hip hop, um black radicalism, the civil rights movement uh and social movements in general. Um and we’re here, we’re very, very pleased to welcome Dr Michael eric Dyson to racing Democracy. Dr Dyson,

[0:01:41 Michael] wow! Such an honor to be here with such a remarkable scholar. A scholar. I shouted out in the new york times for his eloquent pen, uh, one of the most eloquent in the game and his remarkable scholarship. So, thank you so much sir for having me on.

[0:01:56 Peniel] I’m so honored to have you on the show. Dr Dyson because I want us to talk about what’s happening in the streets of America right now. You’ve written such, such extensively, so extensively and so eloquently about the black freedom struggle, both in the 19th, 20th and 21st century. Um, you’re also an ordained minister. Um, and um, you know, I think our listeners, most people that people have not heard of you, I would be very surprised, but you’re really one of the most sought after speakers, uh, and intellectuals in the country. But you’re one who is interested in both high brow culture, but what people might think of as folk culture. So you’re working on a book on Kobe Bryant, you’re you’re you’re interested in hip hop and sports, but you’re also interested in religious religion and faith communities. Social justice communities. What are you to make of both the tragedy of George Floyd’s public execution by former Minneapolis police officers, but also this uprising that we’ve seen and this protest that we’ve seen, it’s really unlike anything that I’ve witnessed in my lifetime.

[0:03:02 Michael] Yes, sir. No, you’re exactly correct. Your eloquent in your summary. Um The public execution of Mr Floyd is devastating. Um You know, in the old days when they sent out postcards of public lynchings, it was both meant to celebrate in glee with a kind of pathological giddiness, the death of a black person. And on the other hand, meant to remind us to stay in our places. These videos have had the impact of devastating us on the one hand. But on the other hand of galvanizing us to move forward, I think that when black people saw the breath leave the body of George Floyd, it was over. It was enough. We have to be done with any understanding of America any more patients anymore acceptance of apology anymore feeling that the time would possibly come. It must come. It must be now and it snapped something in us to see that man begging for his mother on the streets and now we must rise up and concerted effort in resistance to tell America this will no longer be the case. And so you’ve seen flooding the streets of America black people along of course with other allies white brothers and sisters, Latino brothers and sisters, asian brothers and sisters and others. But focusing on black people having been fed up having tolerated this for so long. Knowing that this must come to an end, has pushed us beyond our limit of acceptance and tolerance and motivated us to get on the move and go into those streets to declare that we will no longer accept what America is offering. And I think that’s why we see such an unprecedented for the last 30 40 years, uh, social mobility and social momentum and social movement as a result of this tragic death.

[0:05:13 Peniel] One of your most important books is tears. We cannot stop a sermon to white America, which I would recommend all our listeners to read immediately. What can white people do right now? This second, this moment to not only stem the tide of racial injustice and defeat institutional racism and white supremacy, but to move in lockstep with black people to promote racial equity and justice uh, in every single facet of american life.

[0:05:47 Michael] Well, you know, first of all, they can read your newest book about Malcolm and martin and how both of those iconic figures, uh motivated and moved black America and the larger american society, especially in the case of Dr King uh, to make a change for the better in this world. Secondly, not only reading your book and reading other books, James baldwin’s the fire next time, be educated about what the situation is. You know, don’t just come into the meeting and assume you know what the deal is and if you don’t know what the deal is, bone up on your history, um study, think, reflect, engage in historical analysis. Look at all the books that are available that talk about these traumas and tragedies. Make yourself available to them. Make those books part of your diet mentally and intellectually intellectually. And then secondly, or beyond that, I think that white brothers and sisters have to check themselves interrogate and be introspective about the ways in which they thought about issues. Talk to people um tried to dismiss racism as an aberration is not normative as something that yeah, it’s bad, but it’s not nearly as bad as it used to be. And come on, you guys have got to stop talking about that and let’s move together uh into the future. You know, we’ve got to reject our citizenship in the United States of amnesia as gore Vidal called it. So for me, you know, for white people to read your book, to read books to be introspective is critical and then to talk to each other in a way that only white folk can talk to each other because as smart as you are and you know, as many books as you’ve written it, as many books as I’ve written, um you know, there’s some white folk who ain’t gonna listen to us, they ain’t gonna like us for a variety of reasons, but they will listen to each other and we need conscientious white people to speak up to go into your arenas neighborhoods, institutions of higher education, local bars have a dash Aries, civic organizations, fraternities and sororities, churches, ashrams, uh temples wherever you exist in cohabit and say and do the things that you know, are critical to a brooding and minimizing if not eviscerating and totally destroying every trace of racist belief, bigoted understanding in the world today, but it’s not enough to be personal with it and to be, you know, determined to move forward by using your individual influence. You’ve got to collectively come together and vote on policies that will help black people. That means you got to vote for the right people who will vote on the policies and voting for the right people means you got to vote in, people who are progressive, who are willing to take another look at this system as they did in say philadelphia uh with is that Larry Krasner, the new uh the prosecutor, their

[0:09:03 Peniel] progressive D. A. District

[0:09:05 Michael] attorney, a district attorney. So you got to put in the office, people like that who can make a difference and you gotta put out of office people like, you know, rand paul, is it random? Yeah. Um who is blacking? You know, legislation for, what is it hate crimes and anti lynching laws and stuff, The formal legal legislative recognition that is necessary in order for us to make a significant difference here. So you’ve got to change hearts minds and you got to change practices and policies and white folks have the wherewithal to be introspective to read books, to educate themselves, to talk to other white people and to change the law.

[0:09:55 Peniel] Mhm. I want to talk about black men um and the fact that this happened to black men, but of course Brianna Taylor was murdered. There’s so many black women. How can we talk specifically? And you’ve done such brilliant work on this score, um both in terms of black feminism but also upholding black men. How can we talk and and push um and contextualized the specific pain and struggle of black men and what they’re facing in the society. The data points show us that they’re the largest numbers of us who are in prison in terms of the black community, even though black women are going in at faster rates. But the aggregate numbers, they’re doing worse in terms of third grade reading levels than black girls. They’re doing worse in terms of high school graduation. They’re doing worse in terms of college graduation. They’re doing worse than all these different social economic data as how can we talk about that? Talk about uplifting black men while not short shrift ng the genuine pain and grief and trauma of black women and black girls who bear so much of the burden of this white supremacist society and all the violence and the cycles of grief and death and poverty and mental and physical illness that it brings.

[0:11:11 Michael] Well, that’s a great point. And the very fact you phrase it that way indicates an enormous advance because a lot of times black men got caught up in, uh we’re suffering harder than worse than women. Uh they get a free ride. The white man loves them, but it hates us. Stop all that madness. You know, that’s masculinity. That is not only toxic is ignorant. It’s uh it’s the refusal to acknowledge our relative privilege within the context of patriarchy over women who continue to suffer. However, having said that, and that’s a critical acknowledgement, we can address the specific ways in which people suffer, right? So if we’re talking about carretera death, to me, that’s not a man, that’s not something that could happen to men. That’s that happens to women. If you’re talking about castration that happens to men, not women now, we don’t want to elevate, you know, castration above clutter Dick to me. But we do want to acknowledge that there are specific manifestations of the pathology of white supremacy that attached to the body of black men. And the ways in which both black men and black women are hunted down has to be acknowledged, shot and killed have to be acknowledged. But the peculiar and particular way in which black men occasion the opprobrium of white supremacist patriarchy has to be acknowledged and the way in which black men are seen as a particular problem, black boys are seen as a particular problem has to be acknowledged as well, not above women, just different from. There are some things we share in common to be certain, but there’s some specific things that we ought to be concerned about as well. And so when we talk about, you know, black boys being shunted to the periphery of the american educational system, girls as well, of course, being kicked out earlier and earlier, girls are two black boys. It seems to me uh, suffer in uh, you know, deleterious and sometimes disproportionate fashion. So we got to say there are some things that black men confront. We got to acknowledge that they confront them. We’ve got to say that we’ve got to tailor our social policy toward them, our public policy toward them to relieve, to relieve the specific manifestations of the hurt and pain that we confront. And at the same time insist that we pay attention to the Brianna taylors of the world. Um, they pay attention to the women who have been victimized by the same white supremacist system that victimizes us. And then together, if we talk about an intersectional analysis, we can then render some sense over the conversation that occurs without engaging in an unhealthy competition about who is suffering the most. We suffer differently. In many instances we ought to acknowledge those differences. And that doesn’t mean we repudiate the necessity of studying the other. It simply means that we have to have specific examinations of the worries in which the hurt and pain attached to the bodies of black men versus how it attaches to the bodies of black women and study both of them with eager anticipation of lining how science can aid us social science in particular, but also trying to figure out, you know, what black men are up against and the barriers we confront and how we have to be honest and open about those.

[0:14:51 Peniel] I want to talk to you about the years 2000 and 8 to 2020 because a lot of times we talk about past history, but we don’t want to focus on recent contemporary history. And I think the past 12 years have been truly extraordinary and not just the history of race relations in the United States, but globally as well in terms of race class, gender uh inequality, but also movements. To end that inequality. You’ve written a terrific book called the Black presidency about the presidency of Barack Obama. You’ve met Barack Obama and Michelle Obama Valerie jarrett, You’ve interviewed the President, the former President of United States. I want you to talk to us about. We’ve, the last 12 years is such a such a whiplash from the election of Barack Obama all the way to the covid 19, the racial pandemic, the black pandemic um all the way up until the 40 million unemployed, disproportionately black and now the George Floyd public execution and the uprisings and inspiring protests in the aftermath. What what happened during these 12 years? How did we get from the promise of Barack and Michelle Obama um to donald j trump’s presidency and an open embrace of white supremacy and white nationalism. Um These are shocking to many people, but I think it’s instructive of of of some deeper currents in american history that we we often don’t want to face. Um and that we still don’t know how to make sense of. So I want you to talk to me about 2000 and 8 to 2020. And how did we go from Barack Obama at Grant Park in november 2000 and eight saying that his election proved that America was a place where all things are possible to the current moment that we’re in.

[0:16:47 Michael] Yeah, that’s a that’s a great and you know, accurate historical genealogy of the moment and of the last 10 years, the last 12 years really. Um and it is a paradox to to be certain a bitter one without question that we could go from the first black president uh, hailing his arrival as the announcement of the end of era, the end of race, which was ludicrous to begin with or that we were moving into a post racial future, which was ridiculous as well. Two now, um, a white supremacist, white nationalist sympathizer who uses the bullet poor pit of the presidency to announce fidelity to and loyalty to those figures who have proved to be extremely problematic in our own situation. So when you think about the fact that, you know, Barack Obama upheld the most noble aspirations of the american history, the american tradition, the american democracy. And even if one had legitimate disagreements with him, one never doubted the fact that he loved this country, that he was willing to sacrifice for the nation, that he was willing to lead it to be a statesman, not to exacerbate our differences, but to accentuate our commonalities and not to deepen the pathology of bigotry prejudice or white supremacy, but as much as possible to challenge them to change them, to check them and ultimately to transform them. We have the exact opposite with donald trump. He’s a birther, he’s a deep state conspiracy theorist. He is a figure who doesn’t respect fact or truth or compassion. He was expressed empathy in many ways for neo national neo nazis and neo fascists. Um He has aided and abetted the corrosion of american civility and he has undercut and undermine the ability of so many factions of this society to carry out uh their duties of making this nation’s, you know, future far brighter because he stands opposed to the most interesting progressive ideas that can be put forth. And he’s obsessed with trying to erase everything that Barack Obama did. You know, he’s so preoccupied with Obama and trying to eradicate everything Obama did that. He often doesn’t have time left over to govern in the way he should. And when he does get around the governing, it’s a very crude and reductionist IQ conception of the government. He doesn’t know much about it. He’s not familiar with the rules, terms and conditions of american politics for the most part. And this is what the american public claim that they wanted. A novice, somebody who wasn’t as familiar with the system, so he wouldn’t be trapped by it. But I think now we understand that you need somebody in there who can understand what the heck is going on, Be able to translate that stuff into ordinary language, knowing how to mobilize different factions of the american government, knowing what to say and not to say in public and how to, you know how to inspire different constituencies, all of this and more is compacted into um a short time frame that figures who have never been president must learn how to be president and donald trump is proud to be unmolested by enlightenment. So he doesn’t have an eager curiosity about how the world operates.

[0:20:47 Peniel] Well, I want to ask you about the 2020 election, both joe biden the Democratic Party, but also about picking a black woman as vice president first. Um You know when we think about the 2020 democratic primaries, we had Kamala Harris cory booker, we didn’t have that many african american candidates. The primaries process starts in Iowa and new Hampshire two of the widest states in the union. So when we think about the Democratic Party, is the Democratic Party still a racist party? Certainly not the same white supremacist party as the Republican Party, but it is still a racist party even post Barack Obama, when we think about the way the primary process is set up by the Democratic National Commission, When we see when we think about the committee, when we think about the way in which uh Democratic senators and House of Representatives, congressional figures don’t have black folks as chiefs of staff, they don’t have black folks in the supply chain of privilege that they gain from directly from black votes, especially the votes of black women. Um I want to ask you about that because I know you’ve been on record supporting joe biden as a critical supporter of joe biden. You understand joe biden’s um uh his his complicity in building up mass incarceration. But you you said that, look, he’s going to be for policies that are trying to decarceration and we need him at this time. But I want us to talk about that the Democratic Party biden whether we need a black woman as vice president, I think we do. Um and and whether or not the party is still inhospitable to the most loyal voters in its constituency.

[0:22:38 Michael] Of course it is. Of course, the Democratic Party has been trouble. Of course, the Democratic Party ain’t perfect. Of course they’ve got remnants and pockets and rationales that will justify and legitimate and validate every worst instinct of the american republic and exacerbate tensions between black folks and white folk now and exploit us by, you know, getting us to vote and then not always listening to us. Uh once we do all that is true. But when we look at the pandemic of Donald trump, he introduced the virus, a new strain of coronavirus, a new it’s the novel coronavirus. And so we’re dealing with the novel strain of white supremacy, the novel strain of white nationalism in trump 2016. And is that enough to make us vote the other way? I hope so, yeah. And my stupid No, I know there’s a lot of stuff to be done. When I endorsed joe biden. It wasn’t because I thought he was, you know, an ideal man imperfect as he himself says what I’m not running against the almighty, I’m running against the alternative. And so the game is between trump and biden. So, naturally enough, I want people to get out here and vote for biden. Why? So we can push them so we can challenge him. Donald trump ain’t being challenged and pushed by black people. He gives less than a tinker’s damn about what black people say. Plus he’s got about four negroes around him that are just congratulating him on everything he does and telling him he’s the best president for black people ever, and the most progressive and all that madness. So yeah, we’ve got to vote here like our lives depended on it because guess what they do and it will never be for us, an ideal figure that we can vote for, that will have our back all the way that we are invested in to such a degree that that person will will do what we need them to do. We gotta push him, We got to cajole them, we got to demand of them what they need to do. So I think that, yes, the Democratic Party is tough, but the Republican Party is far tougher and it shouldn’t be that Okay, well, because we have no choice, We’ll go over here to the democrats and then we become sitting targets toothless, you know, supporters who don’t have the ability to threaten to withhold our votes lest you know, our demands be met such as um a black female president. Do I think we need a black female president? Absolutely right. But I thought it when Obama was president, we needed a black female on the Supreme Court. And let’s be honest here, dr joseph black people are willing, you know, to overlook shortages in people uh shortcomings, I’m sorry, and people that they like, we can become awfully blind and insensitive to the plight and predicament of ordinary people, and we can become blind to figures like our former president, who may not have done all the right things at the best time. Uh and a lot of us think that if we acknowledge that, that we can’t also accentuate and highlight and underscore the enormous good that he has done so in that sense, we got to constantly push forward. We got to constantly ask the questions about who we are, as if we’re democrats or progressives, who are voting democratic. We got to always raise the question about what we can do, how we can push it. That is the envelope and never give up the fight, because when we give up the fight is when we lose the ability to exercise power and leverage that power in defense of our vulnerable bodies.

[0:26:51 Peniel] All right, dr Dyson last question and it’s a big one. Um where do we go from here? And are you optimistic? Because I think that these protests happening in defense of black lives and in defense of reimagine reimagining american democracy offer us a generational opportunity to transform this country to end whites of currency, to end institutional racism once and for all, it’s going to take the work of a generation. But people are already beginning to organize in deeper ways at the local level. Where do we go from here? And are you optimistic that we can finally end the kind of both public execution of George Floyd? But what you’ve written about eloquently in the new york times, both the fast and slow death from institutional racism and white supremacy that grips and engulfs the entire african american community.

[0:27:45 Michael] Yeah, that’s a big order. But we’ve got it pretty big. The reason we produce brilliant intellectuals like Peniel, joseph, Robin kelly, James, Peterson, um Saleh Misha till it Nicole, Hannah jones marc Lamont Hill. The reason we produce uh Tanya Mckinnon and a great deal of other thinkers and activists. Eddie Glaude, You know, imani perry. Uh no, the way brooks daphne brooks, Farah, jasmine griffin, um you know, and I’m shouting out the scholars here, uh oh bree Hendrix, because you know, when people talk about folk on the front line, they often forget the scholars are out here thinking and critically engaging in serious reflection on the world. That is so yeah, we got to believe that we can make a difference, where do we go from here? We’ve got to continue to think, organize, strategize, resist, elevate our people, elevate the issues that should be spoken to,

[0:28:52 Peniel] and deeply

[0:28:53 Michael] and profoundly use our intellectual abilities to be able to narrate the decline of our civilization and also articulate the basis for its resuscitation and its revival. And does that include black people? Abso damn, lutely Right. You know, Ryan, remember the great theologian said optimism is a shallow virtue. He said, really we want to do something deeper than optimism. That’s hope. Hope exists even against the evidence. Hope against hope, you know, in that ironic or at least idiomatic expression. But hope is a deeper virtue because even when we ain’t got no evidence to keep moving, optimism is premised upon reading the tea leaves and understanding how the wind is blowing. But Hope says, regardless of whether it is dark, and regardless of whether I can’t see my way to put my foot before the next one, I believe in a god who will overcome. I believe in the possibility if you’re not a believer of american democratic exchange and american democratic transformation, you know, exchanging one form for the other, a lesser form for the greater form. And so I think it is extremely important that we continue to think hope and grow so that we can give our listeners our followers, our readers a sense of the tremendous possibility that exists. And I’ll end by saying this, Howard thurman, the Great Mystic said, refused the temptation to to limit your dreams to the event. You are now confronting this thing will not last always, he said, are four parents face the long rows of cotton and the rawhide whip of the overseer and yet they were able to imagine a different future beyond where they were. That’s what we have to do as black people.

[0:30:51 Peniel] All right, we’re gonna end on that message of hope. Hope against hope. Hope beyond optimism. That really this is the generational opportunity that we’ve all been, not only waiting for, but that um, we have fought and struggled in so many thousands before us have have have died and spilled their blood to try to transform this country as a place where all things are possible for all people. Uh, Dr Michael eric Dyson, my brother, thank you so much for joining us. Dr Dyson is the author most recently of jay Z Made in America, another best seller, dozens of books on the African diaspora rick uh community african americans, but others, Professor, university professor at Georgetown and really one of the world’s most important and impactful, uh, not just public intellectuals, but a very, very erudite uh and imaginative scholar. Somebody who never lost their curiosity, somebody who continues to read um indefatigably and speak all around the world and and mentor generations of intellectuals and generations of students and activists in the United States and around the world, truly a global figure. One of the greatest intellectuals we have ever produced in the United States of America, irrespective of color creed, gender. Dr Michael eric Dyson thank you so much for joining us on race and democracy. God

[0:32:23 Michael] bless you. Thank you so much for your kindness and for your brilliance and keep doing great work. My friend,

[0:32:28 Peniel] thanks for listening to this episode. And you can check out related content on twitter at Peniel, joseph. That’s Peniel Joseph and our website CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu. And the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of texas at Austin. Thank you