Ep. 35 – Racial Justice and Democracy in the Time of Coronavirus: A Conversation with Sabeel Rahman

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Uh huh. On today’s episode, we are very excited to be joined by Case a Bill Rockman, who is the president of demos, a think tank committed to advancing policy and social change on issues of racial justice, democracy and inequality. Doctor Rockman is also an associate professor of law at Brooklyn Law School and co chair of the Law and Political Economy project. He’s previously been visiting professor at Harvard Law School, a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute and a fellow at New America and he is the author of democracy against domination and civic power rebuilding american democracy in an era of crisis. Sabeel, Welcome to Race in democracy,

[0:01:04 Sabeel] Thanks so much for having me dr joseph.

[0:01:07 Peniel] Well, this is our first podcast in the context of the corona virus and because of all the really incredible powerful work that you do vis a vis democracy and democratic institutions and people of color, especially black and brown communities in the United States and globally. I want to talk about the impact that Covid 19 has had on communities of color were getting devastating reports about disproportionate black death, um disproportionate brown death, uh poor black communities, segregated communities, not having access to testing, being forced to be on the front lines of this Covid crisis. So I want us to dig into that.

[0:01:53 Sabeel] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, that’s um, one of the one of the biggest dangers I think of the of the virus when it first started

[0:02:03 Peniel] becoming a

[0:02:04 Sabeel] big crisis

[0:02:05 Peniel] was people

[0:02:06 Sabeel] were saying, we’ve got you got you might hear some my four month old in the background here as were sheltered in place here in new york. But you know, when the virus first started becoming a big crisis, a lot of folks are saying, well, you know, the virus is a great equalizer. Everybody is affected where all humans and we’re all at risk. But you know, if viruses may not be able to discriminate across humans, but people and policies do. And what we really see here is that the virus is layering on top of all the systemic inequities baked into our economy, baked into our politics and amplifying that times 1000. So I think about a place like Milwaukee, you know, Milwaukee County. Uh, your folks have seen the numbers already black americans make up about 25 to 26% of the population, but account for over 80% of the fatalities. Now this is also the same county where just a couple weeks ago we saw the primary election proceed with most of the polling places shut down in a county where that accounts for most of the black voters in the state. And I mentioned that to highlight that this crisis is really a crisis of racial capitalism. And to me what that means is, you know, you think about every way in which our economy has put black and brown workers, black and brown families at in higher levels of risk and danger from pollution from, uh, precarious work and from diluting their political power, all of which comes to bear in this moment.

[0:03:31 Peniel] And let’s unpack that’s a bill. Because when you talk about racial capitalism for for our, our listeners, that’s a big word. And

[0:03:39 Sabeel] yeah, absolutely

[0:03:40 Peniel] about racial capitalism. We know what capitalism means. But when we think about racial capitalism, um, what are we saying? Are we making a case that the entire system, the capitalist system is racialized and exploits and extracts resources from black and brown bodies and communities? What do we mean by that, and then we’ll get deeper in.

[0:04:04 Sabeel] Yeah, that’s exactly right. And so, um, I think people are used to thinking about the idea of inequality, right? We have an economy right now that has high levels of inequality. I think that’s become familiar to a lot of folks, but I think it’s really important to understand is that that inequality is rooted in history of extraction of wealth from black and brown workers and from black and brown communities. So give to just quick concrete examples when you think about why work is so risky and dangerous without labor protections for so many black and brown workers. That system of extractive labor, risky, dangerous labor has its origins in the Jim Crow South, for example, and going back even further back in our history of the country that built so much of its wealth on the legacy of slavery. The another example, if you think about now, why we have so much wealth concentrated, say in Wall Street or private equity funds and hedge funds, A lot of that wealth comes from the systems of state, predatory lending debt, municipal debt, student debt, consumer debt, that especially praise on black and brown communities, and that goes back to the 2008 crisis. And even way beyond uh when you look at the racial wealth gap that has been around for a long time, so, so much of the inequality is actually premised on extraction from and the suppression of economic opportunity for black and brown communities that you can’t talk about economic equality without actually talking about race.

[0:05:39 Peniel] Now, when we think about where we’re at this covid crisis hit us in the context of the Democratic primary and we had a contest between many, many different challengers. But when we think about joe biden and some of these Democratic centrists vs. People like Elizabeth Warren, of course, Bernie Sanders, I think the Sanders um ethos was absolutely and Warren talking about a new deal, right? A new deal for all people. I don’t necessarily think they were great on race matters and they’ve been criticized for this because in a way they saw economic justice as the linchpin to this new deal. Um where I think about justice, based on what you said about racial capitalism, and what we know about racial segregation in public schools, What we know about mass incarceration, what we know about environmental justice, um and inequality, what we know about immigration, I think that race um is at the core of trying to get economic justice to try to get gender justice to try to get justice for L. G. B. T. Q. Communities, poor people, people who have mental health people are immigrants and undocumented. If you don’t understand that race is central to that. Um you’re gonna be, you’re gonna be in trouble. So when we think about where we’re at, what do you think of the political climate that we’re at in a sense of to do what is going to be necessary um in the future? Probably we’re not going to see it in 2020 because we’ve seen uh President trump’s response in the White House response has been um not just incompetent but really criminal. The response has been criminal um to poor people and communities of color. Hospital workers don’t have P. P. E. S. So what can we do now? We’ve seen different people right up EDS. And we’ve got strong people like Yanga yamada taylor who’s writing strong things in the new york times, in the new yorker, Jelani cobb, others who were really doing great things. And we’ve seen workers protests at amazon and other places, the fact that they’re not getting protective equipment, they’ve had a small hourly increases $2 an hour into the car in other places. What can we do now? And I know you study these institutions, you think about this, you write about it, you speak about it and demos is really a wonderful think tank that that advocates for deep deep democracy, democracy, that’s not a partisan style democracy, but that’s for all people. Um where are we now? What can we do even while sheltering in place when you think about solutions, want to protect people, raise money for families that are really, really vulnerable. But if racial capitalism really speeds up black death and brown death and vulnerability, what can we do now to halt this?

[0:08:35 Sabeel] Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s it can be overwhelming right to think about just the moment we’re in, so many of us are afraid for ourselves, for our loved ones, for our communities. You know, we’re now at the stage of the pandemic here in new york where uh there’s not a person who doesn’t isn’t directly affected or doesn’t know someone who is on the front lines or has passed from the covid virus itself. And, you know, we’re not 22 million and counting people have lost their jobs, starting with black and brown workers in particular. So it’s it is, it is a hard challenge. I think that’s right. There are a couple of things that are front of mind in this moment right now that can actually build us towards the kind of longer term country that we really need to be if we want to survive and thrive in the long run. The first is supporting each other mutual aid and and the health crisis itself, right? We have uh, essential workers who are putting them themselves on the line to keep us fed and care for the sick and in the hospital system. But there’s a lot of support that folks need to get to get by and a lot of organizing happening to help provide that support

[0:09:52 Peniel] to one another.

[0:09:53 Sabeel] That’s really in the absence of leadership from Washington. Right? That’s that is what democracy and government should be for. We have state governments that, you know, some of which are stepping up, but we’re really having to uh lean on our communities in a moment of a leadership vacuum

[0:10:09 Peniel] and even Andrew Governor CUomo in your state, Right. New york is my hometown. Governor CUomo has been lauded for leadership. But at the same time, there’s all these prisoners, Rikers Island and others who are who are languishing at times with the virus, who have not been charged with anything but are caught up in the money bail system, which is connected to convict leasing and racial slavery and the destruction of black people.

[0:10:34 Sabeel] Absolutely. And I think this is why your earlier point dr joseph about centering race in a deeper way is so critical. You know, while it’s true that the governor has done some really important things in terms of the pandemic response, they just passed a budget that actually took a really important, urgently needed bail reform set of proposals off the table and have not done anything about the prison crisis in context of the pandemic and that’s about perpetuating a system of mass incarceration that praise on black and brown communities in particular. And if we’re not willing to tackle those types of systems in this moment where there is such an immediate urgent need, then people are going to keep dying and being hurt right and not just now, but in the future. So I think that’s a really good example of what I think is the second challenge is in addition to the health care crisis, we need to put the spotlight and put the pressure on these deeper systemic issues that are actually about the crisis and about what was here before Covid hit. So mass incarceration was a crisis before Covid hit, but it isn’t even more dangerous crisis and context of a pandemic.

[0:11:42 Peniel] Yes, same

[0:11:43 Sabeel] with housing and debt, we need debt forgiveness. We need to

[0:11:46 Peniel] move to a world

[0:11:47 Sabeel] where we’re solving the housing crisis and the affordability crisis,

[0:11:52 Peniel] debt forgiveness. You’re talking about student loan debt. People have crushing student

[0:11:56 Sabeel] loan student loan debt. You know, how are folks going to even pay the interest on their debt? Now is people are losing their jobs? How are people going to make rent? These are systemic issues that have to do with race and inequality that were here before Covid, but Covid makes it that much worse. So we need to put that pressure. And I want to

[0:12:13 Peniel] talk about racial segregation in a democracy because I think one of the things we’re seeing is this idea that people in low income, racially segregated areas don’t have access to test and people in high app areas are being tested at six times that rate. So when we think about racial segregation in the United States, there’s a reason why communities are racially segregated. Poor communities are more marginalized and then more easily identifiable. And wealthy communities do what scholars call opportunity hoarding where they have the best, the safest um streets with, not without a lot of police intervention. So their kids don’t die or even have run ins. They have a tax base that exclusively just goes to their public schools. Um, we have environmental advantages. They have the best education, at least on paper, right. That can then be leveraged for the best private colleges or public universities in the world. And so let’s talk about racial segregation in the context of pandemic, racial segregation is also um, wealth inequality. It’s also the segregation of poor, black and brown people who might be HIV positive, who might be cash poor, who might have diabetes and stress and heart and asthma conditions from from young Children all the way up to adults and seniors. And these are the people who are receiving the less care,

[0:13:40 Sabeel] while even in the context of

[0:13:42 Peniel] people who are in racially segregated, all white at times with smatterings of brown and black people in there are getting the best access.

[0:13:52 Sabeel] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one way to think about these systemic issues is that they create the underlying potential for the kind of mass death that we’re seeing now, that is focused in black and brown communities, right? We are inability to tackle these systemic issues in, say, 10 years ago, five years ago, even two years ago, that bill is coming to now because we’ve left these disparities in place. And so when when folks say, well, you know, Covid has nothing to do with housing or with segregation, with urban planning or with where we put the power plant and where the pollution goes. It has everything to do with all of those. And so I think that’s one of the biggest challenges in terms of what we can do now is the more we can put pressure in the public conversation and on our elected officials at all levels to understand that this covid crisis is about all of these things and that we need to we need to speak to all of these systemic issues now. And I would say by the way that it’s not that we don’t know what to do about these, We know how to tackle segregation. We know how to do debt cancellation, we know how to do how to speak to environmental justice right there. The policy ideas are out there. We see that, you know, not just in our work, but lots of great folks doing amazing work on the policies. What’s missing is the political will and the pressure to force uh policy making system that still does not actually center or is not accountable to black and brown communities in the ways that it needs to be.

[0:15:32 Peniel] And I wanna talk about that point uh when we think about the work that you do and what we’ve seen, especially since the Supreme Court Shelby V. Holder decision, I live in texas, um and there’s been so much voter suppression here, but also nationally. And we see what happened with the election in Wisconsin. They tried to rig republicans and conservatives tried to rig an election in Wisconsin for a judge, but the democratic judge still one anyway, so we’re seeing um 19th century reconstruction and redemption era um potemkin election laws, the laws that are just it’s not real, their anti democratic these are these are designed to promote a politics and practice of white supremacy. What can um small d advocates of democracy do against that, against the racial gerrymandering against um all these anti democratic measures that have been passed by states and that the federal government under trump Jeff sessions bob barr are just really supporting, you know what what what where can people turn because you’re right that this anti um anti black publix policy converges and interfaces with mass incarceration with immigration policy, um anti immigration policy, anti muslim policies, but it also converges with this anti democratic institutional wave that we’ve seen where we don’t want in this country. All american citizens even to vote.

[0:17:10 Sabeel] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think for uh for a country that claims democracy as its birthright, it’s so important to remember that we are actually not a democracy. We have never successfully in the history of this country been a full and inclusive democracy because even you mentioned a reconstruction and redemption, I’m so glad you did, because even at the high water mark of after the Civil War, amending the constitution to supposedly protect the right to vote and assure equal protection. The immediate response was a backlash of violent one to restore white supremacy over the ballot. And political power is at the heart of maintaining these racial and economic inequities that we’re talking about here. So in terms of what do folks need to do? You know, I think just understanding the roots of this problem is important and that there really is a concerted effort on the other side, among conservative judges, legislators, commentators to maintain the system of hoarding political power in the same way that we hoard wealth in the way our economy is structured, we hoard political power in the way our democracy structure. So let’s be clear eyed about the problem. This isn’t a problem of this is an intentional problem. The second thing I’d say that in terms of what to do about it, I hear a point to three things. One is in the covid moment. One of things we are working with a lot of partners on is to assure secure access to the ballot for black and brown communities now and in november. So that means getting states to do modified versions of vote by mail with additional protections and backstops to ensure that black and brown voters can actually access even a vote by mail system. Because if you do it off the shelf, it doesn’t necessarily work.

[0:18:51 Peniel] How can we do that in states with Republican governors? Because it seems like Democratic governors are going to be much more amenable to the vote by mail. The President of United States himself said if there was a vote just by mail, republicans would lose every single thing because he claimed voter fraud. But we’re really thinking more because voter access and participation.

[0:19:11 Sabeel] Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there’s, I mean, texas is a good example right now, where there’s a lot of, uh, there’s a lot of battle right now over vote by mail. I think a federal district court recently had a ruling to that was in favor of that. But it’s it’s being fought out in real time in the states when I would offers that this is not a done deal. There’s pressure that can be brought to bear on state legislators on state election officials, especially in states like texas or florida. We’ve been, we do a lot of work with grassroots groups that are doing the organizing and to bring that political pressure. I think of like a texas organizing project, for example, amazing work in texas or new florida majority. There are lots of great groups that are working focused on black and brown communities working on these issues. So there’s a pressure on state officials. I think the other thing that I would also put on the table is that this is why every type of election, no matter how small the office matters. So judicial elections, state county local elections, if we don’t win those uh, those races that are not in the headlines. And what happens is you play forward 5, 10 years from now, those same people who are now dependent on a system of voter suppression are now governors and senators and they’ve worked their way up corrupt system. So every election, every office is worth contesting.

[0:20:35 Peniel] Yeah, I wanna, I wanna one say, I think you’re exactly right. But like in Ferguson we see that because of this systemic abuse and pressures and marginalization, the racial oppression, young people, especially poor people living below the poverty line, working class people, their votes tend to be lower. People who are making over 70 80 90 100,000 year. Their votes tend to be higher, people were over 65 years old, their votes tend to be higher, who have the cynic your of Medicaid, Medicare, rather not Medicaid and and other Social Security. So what’s so interesting is that this, this there’s a feedback loop where the racial oppression and the anti democratic policies that are happening at the federal and the state and the local level, they sort of ensure a lack of voter participation. So sometimes even for Bernie Sanders, Bernie Sanders made a claim he was going to be able to get young people to come out to vote. They didn’t come out quite as robust numbers as as he anticipated. But I would argue that a lot of that has to do with this deep systemic problems that we have, where we don’t register people to vote automatically in high school. We don’t have a voting holiday, but also because of Shelby V. Holder, we are doing voter suppression that comes right out of the 19th century playbook of poll taxes and grandfather clauses and, and convict lease system. I mean, it is, it’s amazing the, not just the echoes the way this has been replicated into the, into the 21st century. I want to ask you to bill while we’re having this conversation and you’re one of the foremost policy experts in the country about democracy. When we think about Covid, what do you think about the federal bill that was passed that was signed? What were the good the bad of that bill? And what do we need? Democrats are talking about $30 billion more for testing. But I’m thinking about things like jobs, cash for people, for stalling evictions. Um, what about homelessness? What do you think about that bill? And really trillions of dollars are now earmarked to combat this virus, but who’s going to get the money and who should get the money? Because right now a lot of stuff is being done under the cover of Covid. It seems the president has a half a trillion dollars that he’s saying is going to be earmarked for businesses at his own whim we’re seeing expenditures that we’ve never seen before in the history of the republic, even with the 2000 and eight great recession. So what do you think about the policy response so far? And where should we go?

[0:23:15 Sabeel] Yeah, it’s such an important question. I think right now there’s a lot of the there are two big challenges. One is that the good things that have happened in the bill so far already. Uh There are some good things, you know $1200 for families, some support for small businesses uh things like that. But even those aspects have been already the lion’s share of those resources are going to the people who already have the money and support that they need. There is a reporting in the last few weeks about how private equity firms for example were first in line to get those small business loans and I’m sorry but they are not the people who need that money. And then steve Mnuchin, Treasury Secretary got on T. V. Yesterday and said well $1200 that that should last folks 10 months. Well I don’t know what folks he’s thinking of but that’s not gonna last people even a months worth of rent and and debt payments. So there’s there’s a some good things but it just is not nearly enough and there’s way too little oversight and corporate America is just getting a whatever it wants from this first bill.

[0:24:19 Peniel] There’s a what should we do, what should we do

[0:24:21 Sabeel] the next? So there’s there’s a debate right now in Congress about trying to get 1/4 bill through when Congress returns to session in D. C. At the beginning of May. That’s going to be an uphill battle because the administration is fighting it tooth and nail. I think the more we can put pressure for a people’s bailout that goes to especially working class folks black and brown folks. People who really can are already in calamity because of this crisis. That is the thing we need for this fourth bill, which might be the last one that we get for a while because then it’s election season. So in this bill, I think there are three big priorities we need to focus on. One is immediate cash that goes directly to working families. Congresswoman Giant paul has a proposal out today about sustained payments, $2000 a family per month. That would continue through the end of the crisis that automatically renews. That’s the kind of support we need. We need much more support for businesses and payrolls so that people aren’t getting cut from their jobs, that the jobs will be waiting for them when this crisis ends.

[0:25:26 Peniel] That’s what Denmark has done, right? Because

[0:25:28 Sabeel] absolutely

[0:25:29 Peniel] 22 million people who file for unemployment. One other way we could have done, it was just backstop everybody’s

[0:25:35 Sabeel] work totally

[0:25:36 Peniel] all business or not

[0:25:37 Sabeel] totally. And this is a really important point. You’re making that folks should be really clear that the death that we’re seeing and the job loss that we’re seeing is a policy choice. It did not have to be this way we have chosen because of how this administration has failed to respond or chosen to respond to make the pandemic worse because of their inability to respond. And we have chosen to have a policy that perpetuates job loss because of the

[0:26:03 Peniel] way. Because the

[0:26:04 Sabeel] alternative is the alternative is uh much more support for payrolls, like what’s been happening in Denmark, right? You essentially backstop the payroll payments for businesses so that they don’t have to cut people off of their payrolls, um expand unemployment insurance, which some of which has been done already, but actually extend that to uh immigrant workers, undocumented workers, folks who are not in not able to access the UI system so that they can get cash for basic necessities and then you need to alleviate the pressure of immediate bills. So no one should face any utility bills or utility shut offs during this time. No one should face any debt payments during this time. We need to backstop focuses, focuses rent, keep them housing secure. All of this means congress is gonna have to spend that money and get it directly to support people to survive the shelter in place period. Right now, most of that money is going to the big players, the people who are already don’t need the support.

[0:27:07 Peniel] Yeah, I wanna um really for for the last several minutes that we have talked about health care and race because Bernie Sanders biggest claims to fame during his campaign was this Medicare for all and on some levels. I think that’s that’s absolutely a brilliant idea. But I also think about black and brown communities and what would that mean for them? Because even if we have Medicare for all, we’re seeing because of racial segregation, zip codes and neighborhoods are not treated by institutions and equitable manners. Some zip codes and race uh, neighborhoods matter more than others. So one, what should our national, we think about health care because this is both a health care crisis, but it’s a crisis of racial justice, the environment. Um it’s hitting so many black communities more Albany or Albany Georgia Louisiana. We’re seeing a disproportionate black debt one. What can we do? What should we be doing in terms of health care um in the future? Like is this the moment to be talking about Medicare for all? And then specifically for black and brown folks who are one disproportionately vulnerable, but also there on the front lines as home health aid workers. And they work in these industries like both hospitals, but also they work at the post office for instance, and in other industries that were deemed vital but that they were really, really vulnerable. No PPE no protective equipment. So what should this do? Because health care is really a primary racial justice issues?

[0:28:47 Sabeel] Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. So there are

[0:28:51 Peniel] it’s

[0:28:52 Sabeel] three things that I would point to here in particular. First, yes. Medicare for all. Absolutely. We need to finally have universal health care that is decoupled from one’s job that everyone can access. That is single payer. That But that’s just a starting point. The second thing we need is a direct health and financial relief for those essential workers that you mentioned. Right, These are predominantly black and brown workers who are putting their lives on the line for 7 50 an hour at a grocery store, right? That is that is not that in this country we should be morally appalled that that is how we are operating in this moment. So we need an essential workers bill of rights that gets them the PPE they need, that gets them the health care treatment that they need and actually provides for the kind of economic security that these workers actually deserved from the beginning. But now is the time we got to make sure we get it to them. And then the third and final thing is to your point about the historical inequities that accumulate on black and brown communities around health and around well being. We need to sustain targeted investment in black and brown communities that finally speaks to the accumulated toll of pollution, of segregation, of financial debt and debt burdens, right? These are all related to what health experts call the social determinants of health, right? Health is not just about physical health, it’s totally bound up in one economic security and uh, safety overall. And so all these types of racial justice questions really come to the fore around health because that the impact show up in terms of people dying, people being sick,

[0:30:32 Peniel] people being vulnerable

[0:30:34 Sabeel] and we need to take this crisis to solve that.

[0:30:36 Peniel] Absolutely. And even where we work, I mean, you’ll see black folks working in restaurants brown,

[0:30:42 Sabeel] absolutely

[0:30:43 Peniel] working at the airport, but not in front line, but in the back line capacity. So the

[0:30:48 Sabeel] people, the

[0:30:50 Peniel] planes, the people clean the bathrooms at the airport. I go to Atlanta airport a lot all black people. Um and these are the people who are the most vulnerable and a lot of times they’re getting the least at least wages. Um All right, so bill my, you know, my last question is really, do you see any hope, like what, what are, you know, you know, one of the things you think about President franklin, Roosevelt, abraham Lincoln, um even President Obama, you know, out of great crisis comes great opportunities. And so do you see any hope for um for for the future? And but and I’m thinking the future of american democracy and racial justice at the core because this great crisis, 22 million unemployed, we realize black and brown. And I’m thinking hope for people who are homeless people who are undocumented, 11 million people who should really immediately being maybe made citizens and have

[0:31:41 Sabeel] absolutely relationship

[0:31:43 Peniel] the people tens of millions who have no health care. Is there hope for who are segregated, who are incarcerated and sick right now? Um, so is there a context where this great crisis really produces something extraordinary?

[0:31:57 Sabeel] Yeah, I really do feel that we are on the cusp of both out of urgency and out of opportunity, a massive reinvention of american democracy, that for the first time, can make good on our deep moral values of genuine inclusion and equity from racial justice standpoint, from a standpoint of democracy. And you mentioned Lincoln and FDR, this country has been through moments of tremendous devastation. This crisis is at that level of what we’ve suffered in the Civil War and in the Great Depression, in terms of just how much death and suffering is happening, but it also means that it’s really clear just how much needs to change. But you mentioned Bernie Sanders earlier, Sanders ran his campaign on the idea that the entire system needs to be remade. If anyone doubted that, you know, three months ago, it’s really clear now that that is exactly right. And the last thing I was offered by way of hope is actually think if you look at where the political debate was even in 2014, what the big issues were, how much the how much energy, grassroots energy there was among black and brown communities and working families to put pressure. We are in such a different world right now, where the conversation, yes, you have the president and the far right, uh, really raising a scary prospects of an authoritarian white supremacist country. But the politics among grassroots folks among among working folks, we have a different level of energy, of organizing, of urgency, where our issues, you know, debt relief, uh, environmental justice, climate, you know, these issues are front and center in a way that they weren’t even four or five years ago. So I think this is actually the time to put our foot on the gas and try to make the changes that we no need to be made come january and beyond.

[0:33:50 Peniel] All right, we’re gonna close on that note. Uh Sabeel Rahman, president of demos, he’s reminding us like Dr martin Luther King, Jr, of the fierce urgency of now and and Dr King talked about the fierce urgency of now in the context of racial and economic justice and in the context of the corona crisis, Corona is going to set american democracy really, at a crossroads. We are absolutely at a crossroads in terms of wealth inequality, in terms of how we treat immigrants, how we treat black and brown people, how we treat poor people, how we treat those who are incarcerated, and we’re gonna have to make very, very hard choices who has the right to vote. How do we define citizenship? Not in the near future, but right now? And so all of us who are interested in this work, we have to be um yes, praying and and taking care of our communities, but also struggling and organizing wherever we’re at, even while we shelter in place um to try to transform american democracy and make this nation like, like say Bill was saying really that moral and ethical leader that at our best we can be. Um so this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. Uh Sabeel Rockman is president of demos. He’s the which is a think tank devoted to progressive democracy and issues of racial justice. He’s also uh an associate professor of law at Brooklyn Law School and co chair of the Law and Political Economy project. He’s the author of Democracy against domination and civic power rebuilding american democracy and an error of crisis, which you can get at your independent bookstore. And he really is one of the most widely sought after speakers and authors. Uh he writes for so many different publications, um including scholarly publications about small d democracy, democratic institutions, what we can do to turn this country into a nation that is as great as our ideals. So thank you Sylvia.

[0:35:55 Sabeel] Thanks so much for having me.

[0:35:56 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode. And you can check out related content on twitter at Peniel joseph. That’s Peniel Joseph and our website CSRd.LBJ.utexas.edu. And the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal arts development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts, at the University of texas at austin. Thank you.

[0:36:32 Sabeel] Mhm mm