Ep. 26 – Teaching About Racial Slavery and 1619: A Conversation with Dr. Keffrelyn Brown

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Okay, welcome to race and democracy. Ah, podcast on the intersection of race, democracy, policy, higher education, history and really contemporary events. My name is Peniel Joseph, and I am the founding director of the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy and the Barbara Jordan Professor and Political Values and Ethics at the University of Texas at Austin. And this is our first episode for the fall semester. And we are very pleased to welcome Dr Keffer Lynn Brown, who is university distinguished professor of cultural studies and education at the University of Texas at Austin and really one of the most the foremost pedagogical experts. When we think about education, African American history issues of not just diversity, but issues of equity um, in the country. Um, So, Dr Brown, careful in so happy to have you here.

[0:01:17 Keffrelyn] Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I want to

[0:01:19 Peniel] talk to you today about a number of different things, but on campus we’ve had conversations both public conversations and private conversations about 16. 19 and you know, The New York Times. Other outlets have done all these special sort of pedagogical efforts, you know, New York Times, Sunday magazine Voices America Radio had a program that I was part of on 16 19 to 2019 sort of 400 years of the story of not just slavery, but basically freedom in America. But 16 19 is the date when either 19 or 20 and odd, um, enslaved Africans arrived in Jamestown, Virginia, and sort of begin the origin story in what becomes the United States of America. And you’re doing a project on 16. 19 right now. And how do we teach, um, the story of racial slavery in the K through 12 curriculum? So I want to talk to you about that both specifically, but also generally in terms of how do we teach slavery? How do we teach the story of civil rights? How do we teach racial identity, privilege, the politics of exclusion, All these things that have become really foremost in all of our minds in this sort of post Barack Obama moment that we find ourselves in,

[0:02:43 Keffrelyn] right? So I I am, uh, just launched, Um Ah, a research project. Ah, Siris of teacher workshops and a website with my co leads Anthony Brown and Daina Ramey Berry. And we are focused on teaching Texas slavery in particular because that is an area in the state of Texas that is lacking in our curriculum. What we’re talking about, however, with Texas slavery can also apply and does apply toe larger US slavery. We’re also focusing, though, that that that that study around race so we’re We’re sort of arguing that you cannot talk about Texas slavery or US slavery without talking about race. And actually, we need to talk more about race in school curriculum anyway, So this is a wonderful space to do that.

[0:03:38 Peniel] And why do we need to talk more about race carefully

[0:03:41 Keffrelyn] when we think about schools? When we think about education systems in general, it’s It’s pretty well documented that there are glaring inequities that are linked to race. Um, and those play out not only in the curriculum, but they play out in the classroom. I work in the area of teaching and curriculum in and and I also focused on teacher education and one of the things that we try to focus on when our students are coming. Entire program is helping them understand race, racism and how that particular social construct plays role and will play a role in their classroom. It will play a role in the kinds of knowledge that’s made available for their students, but also how teachers look at perceive and make decisions about students and how students engage with their teachers and with with others, even

[0:04:31 Peniel] if those teachers aren’t racist or actively racist.

[0:04:35 Keffrelyn] Absolutely, uh, in fact, one of the things that we actually push our students to understand is that you may not be individually racist. In other words, you may not engage in behaviors that are overtly racist or prejudiced, prejudicial. However, we live in a society, and our and our and our institutions are laden with certain kinds of, uh, racist practices. And without understanding how we all are immersed within that system, you can easily reinforce a re inscribe, um, beliefs and practices that you may not overtly want to engage in. Ah, we really push against the idea of having a color evasive or what some called color blind set of practices where we choose not to see race even as we recognize that race is operating within that space.

[0:05:36 Peniel] And we think about Texas history. Texas history has come under fire from critics for embellishing when, when? When we think about the history of race in America, but also not just race, but but racial slavery and sort of anti black racism, not even using the correct terminology for for the antebellum period in the United States. Why is it so important to teach slavery in Texas and sort of rewrite the Texas history books? What can be accomplished by doing that? And what process are you undergoing right now?

[0:06:11 Keffrelyn] At one level, the issue was related to just what is the narrative that’s being told, and that narrative historically has been either grossly exaggerated or just misrepresented or ignored or rendered invisible. Slavery played an integral role in our society in the founding of this country and in its maintenance, um, economically, socially, politically and so to not address it is to not understand the full ah narrative of Of of the U. S. And understand that narrative in Texas as well. It also offers an opportunity for students to better understand how race has just been a part of our country and continues to be a part of our country, and without teaching about it, we lose the opportunity to not only broaden the historic narrative, but we lose the opportunity to help our students to develop what we might call a stronger racial literacy.

[0:07:15 Peniel] And when you say racial literacy, I’d love for you to explain that. And why is it important for really all students, irrespective of color toe, have that racial literacy?

[0:07:24 Keffrelyn] A racial literacy just simply allows you to be able to read and make sense of race beyond, uh, just what we might think of as interpersonal prejudice or racism that might take place overtly between two individuals. It helps you to better understand how racism operates and can operate even with well meaning people who are who are not engaging in those kinds of behaviors. That’s the nature of institutional and structural racism. It’s not dependent on what any one individual person does, and in fact, your one individual act doesn’t necessarily change that larger system. I I would argue that that’s probably one of the most difficulty and challenging um concepts for students to wrap their head around on by the time they get to university when they get into my courses on. And I teach probably the Onley course that our, uh, future teachers have to take around issues of culture and race. When they come into that course, they often don’t understand institutional or structural racism. And we can’t spend the whole, you know, semester talking about, Ah, that concept because there’s so many other things we need to talk about. Um, but it’s probably one of the more difficult concepts for students to wrap their head around, and especially getting away from a color blind ideology, because for many of them, they’ve been taught that to see race or two at knowledge, race and a direct way, um potentially places you in a category of being racist. And what we want them to recognize is, it’s not the seeing race or acknowledging race that caused causes one to be racist. It’s it’s when you don’t see it. And when you don’t allow others Teoh ask questions about what might be going on in this space that’s racially that’s racialized, or that’s that’s connected to raise so that we can better provide more equitable opportunities for all students to learn whether that’s in the curriculum, whether it has to do with the decisions that teachers air making, whether it has to do with how teachers view students or the perceptions that they ah have of students, whatever it may be. Um, seeing race, seeing race for the way that it can operate within the space can empower us and not necessarily debilitating us.

[0:09:53 Peniel] That’s great. I want us toe move towards a wider lens now and talk about 16 19 to 2019 in popular culture and political culture and why, right now, Um, this idea of being anti racist And you know we have this door in Abram Kennedy, who has the best seller how to be an anti races. You’ve got Amani Perry with the book Breathe. You’ve got all these different black scholars and public intellectuals writing about these issues. But why is slavery and sort of the teaching? And speaking of slavery, why do you think it’s become so relevant? Is it is it because of the again the post Barack Obama turn? Um, obviously the White House and sort of the racial dysfunctionality that’s that’s happening there? But what’s so interesting is that we have all these big, mainstream audiences that I think for the first time, I would argue, probably since roots in 1977 are willing to talk about racial slavery, but interestingly, and this is distinct from 1977 they’re talking about racial slavery in a very granular way, meeting that How does how did slavery impact health care? How did slavery impact sugar and rice cultivation, how to slavery impact the system of mass incarceration, how to slavery, impact public schools and the health and wellness of black people but also white people in Latin X people. So I think it’s fascinating toe watch. And I think, you know, obviously you’re on the cutting edge, along with Professor Brown and and Barry of of doing this in Texas. But why do you think What are some of the forces that are making us finally talk about this?

[0:11:36 Keffrelyn] And I think our larger social political context is probably playing an important role. We’ve had, at least you know over the last several years, ah, proliferation in the media, a media presence around racial violence targeted against peoples of African descent here in this country. That’s not It’s not as if that this is the only time that has happened. But there has been more of a spotlight on it. Um, black lives matter. I think that movement and just the attention that it garnered, um, has helped to play. Ah, roll in and and bringing these ideas, um, toe are popular, too. Popular culture. And I’m sure social media as well. So I think seeing, um, and trying to make sense of these acts that are clearly they’re racially motivated. And, you see, you know, over and over time and time again, um, racial violence being inflicted on black people, the question comes up, you know, why is this the case? And and given that this country was founded on, ah, very violent and dehumanizing ah, system of racial slavery, um, between black people and whites, it makes sense to to to say, let’s go back. And let’s try to better understand what was going on with thin that institution that helps us to better understand perhaps some of the challenges we’re dealing with now, with racial violence between law enforcement in the state, mass incarceration, um, inequities and education and schooling a swell as in health care. What’s happening in housing. I mean, you see this and all of the various institutions within our society, this sort of these sort of racial inequalities on, And I think people say, Let’s let’s try to go back at least to a very beginning and starting point within our country where we where we where we had, um this sort of racial divide

[0:13:58 Peniel] now public education is so important in public education in this country was really in a way founded by black elected officials during Reconstruction. They definitely supported it, the first sort of institutionalization of it. Of late, we’ve heard a lot about in the Democratic debates about busing between Senator Kamila Harris and vice president former Vice president Joe Biden. I want us to discuss education and slavery and capitalism. Really, because what’s so interesting to me? The deeper I learnt as a as a lifelong student about racial slavery and its after life, its evolution. I see so much of it in the public education system in the sense that, uh, we set up segregated Jim Crow public schools. But even after the formal end of Jim Crow, racial integration as a policy was really not achieved the high point is 1988 at least according toe. You know, U C L a scholar’s, um and and what do we What are we to make of the way in which education is utilised as a tool to perpetuate racial segregation? Even we think about education, Visa vee, whether its charter schools or private schools or public schools. But just the fact that African Americans, historically a 10 schools that are less well funded schools that are in impoverished neighborhoods, highly segregated schools and they have outcomes that are worse than their their their white counterparts. Um and Rucker. Johnson has the new book You know Children of the Dream and and says, You know why school integration works when it’s given an opportunity, but most often it’s not given an opportunity. So what is the connection when we think about, um, public school education, racial slavery, capitalism and really the new segregation that that Michelle Alexander calls the new Jim Crow that we all find ourselves in Sconce Tin? Now

[0:16:08 Keffrelyn] they’re more racially segregated now than they were in the 19 seventies, which I think has been well documented. Much of that has had to do with the way that neighborhoods have operated. But in general, Children of color Children who are from lower income backgrounds tend to go to schools with other Children that that that same, those same criteria we think about what’s happening now in the educational landscape. We have Neil liberal sort of reforms that have sort of taken over in some ways in schools based on those very inequities. Often, that’s what how they, they sort of position themselves, is addressing those inequities that you raise eso. We see the we’ve seen the growth of charter schools and the growth of, AH, standardized testing, which all are linked to capitalist sort of ventures, right? We see the growth of now testing centers and and people who are companies that are creating more and more tests as a way to give us more information and data about how well students, how well schools are are not doing.

[0:17:23 Peniel] But they served to stigmatize,

[0:17:25 Keffrelyn] and that’s what ends up. That’s what ends up happening. But the argument is that we’re actually creating methods where we can hold schools accountable for what they’re doing in schools are traditional public schools have been demonized to the point where there seems to be a belief in some ways that the only educational institutions that can truly serve the needs of students of color and students from lower income backgrounds would be charter schools, often for profit. That will have less overhead, less bureaucracy.

[0:17:57 Peniel] And they get

[0:17:58 Keffrelyn] and they just make. Teachers are a gnu nya NYSE as a way to go in and just we can get the job done. No excuses in some ways, and all of this centers around the belief or the recognition, rather that those students are not doing well in school. And while it is clear that we have had challenges in our K 12 schooling, these reforms have not changed those inequities. We still see them in schools. The idea of capital is still very much a part of schools. Every one of those Children that are in those schools bring a certain kind of value to larger for profit institutions that are making money on the backs of Children who are positioned as just needing a good education. And for most parents, they just want their Children to go to a good school. They want their Children to go to a good school. And when they hear that some other institution could do a better job, well, they’re going to try to get whatever is the best or what they perceived to be the best, even when what is perceived to be the best is not necessarily making a real difference.

[0:19:03 Peniel] And I think the reason I was connecting slavery to the public school system now is the way in which we think about mass incarceration and all the investments that states and the federal government have made in this process of mass incarceration, especially since 1980 the proliferation of 2.3 million people in prison. Most of them are in state jails, county institutions, a couple 100,000 federal. But we’ve done that investment at the same time. We’ve had disinvestment in public schools, especially some of the public schools in the highest need areas, right?

[0:19:34 Keffrelyn] Especially from, you know, from a sort of divestment of ah public monies and public funding, Uh, and trying to put it more out to the private sector? Absolutely, absolutely.

[0:19:47 Peniel] So what? What is to be done, Catherine, when we think about, um, both in terms of teaching about slavery, teaching about race, teaching about civil rights at the K through low 12 level. And also teaching teachers how to teach this, which is absolutely fundamentally necessary. What are things that can be done to transform, um, public school education, especially for not just kids of color? Generally, yes, but for black Children.

[0:20:17 Keffrelyn] So my work, uh, and the length of the lens that I generally take focuses on curriculum and teaching. Um, there’s so many other aspects to schooling formal schooling that I don’t necessarily focus on in my own work. But what I would say is that teachers are right on the front lines. Teachers are in classrooms. They have direct influence and can make a difference. I mean, you know, there have been many studies that have argued probably the most important variable in the K 12 schooling experience is the teacher, right? That that if you have ah, well qualified teacher, uh, who is able to connect with those students who knows what they’re doing in the classroom? They can make a difference. Um, with outcomes. And so I would say that one of the most important things that we can do is to make sure that we are putting good teachers in the classroom, that we are, uh, properly training them and giving them the kinds of content, knowledge and pedagogical knowledge that they need. How would us

[0:21:26 Peniel] why the lack of African American male teachers? And do you think that that has a real impact on outcomes for young black males?

[0:21:35 Keffrelyn] So So there have been studies that have looked at sort of what they call racial matching. Um, and and some of those studies have shown that students who are in classrooms with teachers that come from the same ah, racial backgrounds themselves often perform at a higher level. Um, I have not done those particular studies, but what I What I think is likely going on in those in those spaces is that when you have ah, person who comes from the same background that you may come from, there are there aren’t certain assumptions that are made about you, whether you’re capable or not. Ah, that doesn’t necessarily mean that every teacher that goes into a classroom who is African American will have high expectations for their African American students. But what it does mean is that, uh, there is often ah, on ability to see that child as fully capable because, you know, people like that you are that child in terms of black males. It’s a complicated, complicated topic. I think we’re seeing many more initiatives coming down the pike around, bringing in mawr black male teachers. And I’ll say, I think that the numbers of black male teachers within the classroom are about 2% a little bit less than maybe 2%. We need more black male teachers because we just need more black male teachers. We need more black male teachers for all of our students, not only for black males to see and have ah, opportunities to work with black males, Um, but also because there is a knowledge base and a and an experiential base that they bring to the table, and they should be represented in schools that all students need to have access to. Uh and so I I would I would I would argue, and I have written about the need to have more teachers of color brought into our Keitel schools. But there are many challenges in terms of getting them there, um, and and and that and that those go back to the need to properly, uh, uh, train them to pay. Well, I mean, pay more. That probably would be one of the ways to get more, um, teachers of color into the classroom. Is to Is to is to pay teachers more money. Um, so I think all of those are important considerations.

[0:24:23 Peniel] Well, my my final question. When you think about this Texas history initiative that you’re taking on in terms of teaching slavery from K to 12 what do you hope to accomplish? And what would be the outcomes? Your dream outcomes if we if we come back and talk two years from now about how this project is going,

[0:24:44 Keffrelyn] One of the things that we hope to see is that teachers will actually began to teach about Texas slavery or US slavery and race in a more robust way. First of all, that they’ll actually talk about race in the context of teaching, teaching this topic. We had our first teacher workshop this week with, uh ah set of educators, and I was told that that someone made the comment that they had been teaching for over 20 years and they had never gotten any professional development on teaching slavery or teaching race, and that it was just, um, an amazing experience for them to have that. And based on all the feedback that we got, the teachers were like We this we want to know more about these Rays constructs and the way that we were able to sort of identify them and how they play out in an actual historic documents. Eyes powerful. And we’ve not seen that before, so I think that is, at a basic level, would be important. Um, also just knowing that teachers feel more comfortable and more efficacious in their ability to do this work without having someone give them, you know, a set of lesson plans that tell them that this is exactly how you go about teaching this. Rather, they know how and feel comfortable pulling together Those resource is and presented it to their students in ways that are contextualized and that are humanizing that are not dehumanizing to to the students in their classrooms and in particular their students of color. Their African American students, who have been in many ways get stigmatized when this topic comes up in the curriculum and It’s probably one of the only times outside of maybe discussions off civil rights if you make it that far in your in your 11th grade history course, one of the few times that you’ll actually see black people enter into the curriculum. And so we would I would like to see teachers feel more comfortable in their ability to teach in critical race based in humanizing ways. Um, that would make me feel like we had made a difference.

[0:27:03 Peniel] All right, that will be the final word. I love that you said, humanizing and trying to use this pedagogy to humanize that history and to humanize each other and to humanize this country. Ah, for the good of ah, of us all and especially the Children in our future generation. Dr. Careful in Brown, uh, who was distinguished University professor of cultural studies and education at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you so much for joining us.

[0:27:31 Keffrelyn] Thank you for having me.

[0:27:33 Peniel] This has been our first episode of the fall 2019 season of Race and Democracy. Our podcast on the intersection of race, democracy, policy, history and really social justice. Um, thank you for joining us and subscribe to us on iTunes, and you can find out more about us at CSRD.LBJ.edu. I am Peniel, Joseph and thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.