Ep. 15 – Black Women’s Activism and Leadership as Political Resistance: A Conversation with Dr. Tracie Lowe

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Okay, welcome to race and democracy. We’re very excited to have Dr Tracy Lowe with us today. Um, who’s a postdoctoral fellow at? Ah, you pra the Institute for Urban Policy Research and Analysis right here at the University of Texas at Austin. And Tracy is also one of our UT alum. Latter received her PhD in higher education leadership. Um, you’ve, Dr Low Tracy, if I may have done terrific work on black women graduate students in the United States from multiple perspectives, both their own experiences facing racial discrimination, everything from micro aggressions, the more overt discrimination, but the way in which they counter and resist. So the work you do really looks at black women’s resilience in their transformative leadership and strength and the way in which they provide tools and models for other groups to organize and sort of achieve excellence in the in the face of state sanctioned discrimination and racism. So I want Teoh talk to you about your your project on black women and girls and really frame it by saying one. What got you interested in this? And why is this so important? And this has become, Ah, much bigger subject with people like Michelle Obama writing her biography or autobiography becoming and doing these book tours. And sometimes people talk about black girl magic and black woman magic. So I want you to explore that within the context of the work you do.

[0:02:05 Tracie] So this work really started out as me search. And I will always say that I got that term for Factory Tick because Dr Richard Ryder, because he was the first question, what hurts? Say it. And so I heard that some early on when I started my graduate program, and honestly, when I came here, my interest for a dissertation topic were not at all in this area. It felt it was a focus on leadership. But for me, specifically, what I had studied in my Masters program was blackmail leadership. And so, as I was going through the program, there was a sort of transformation that happened, especially as I started taking more classes in black studies and just thinking about, um, history and resistance in a different way, and what leadership looks like, And there felt like there was something that was missing cause because people always tell you when you’re doing a dissertation, it has to be a topic you’re passionate about and that you’re going to want to see through because it’s a long, tedious process and it can take a lot of your energy. And so there was a period of reflection that happened, Um, after I took up Black Cities methodology class and I was reading a lot of different books about, um, black women in particular in Salt was thinking I was like, Why does this research area not feel like something that it is something that I want to keep pursuing? And I realized it’s because it wasn’t really addressing a topic that was, um, urgency me not to say that black males are not urgent, but for me and thinking about my own experiences and then particularly in the context of those classes, there were a lot of black women in the classes that I was in, and so hearing their stories and understanding the struggles that they were having not only within institutions but how they were doing resistance outside of the institution in their communities. That really sparked something in me and thinking about how black women do leadership and leadership is very broad. So I wanted to narrow that down specifically and then thinking about what his leadership look like. And why, and how can I make this relevant, particularly those to me? And so there have been a lot of movements that happen. Um, since 2014 since I’ve been at U T. And specifically thinking about how women have resisted, encountered not only, um, resisted in participated in those movements, but also how they’re doing it in a graduate setting because there’s not a lot of research about graduate students

[0:04:32 Peniel] and when you as a movement to mean social justice, movements from black lives matter women’s march. There’s just so many different social movements that have erupted,

[0:04:41 Tracie] yes, social movements from that perspective. And so in thinking about the research and trying to intersected with education intersected with my background. I thought about the fact that there’s not just a lot of research on black women, and specifically if I want to do research me search and find something that was important to me, it was looking at black women graduate students and how that leadership occurs through activism through resistance and how that’s happening in an environment that I would say it’s It’s very nuanced because in academia, when you’re trying to get into these positions off, say, 10 year administration, you walk a fine line because you are, in a sense, making sure that your, I guess, during the respectability, politics in a way or to a certain level. But then you also have

[0:05:29 Peniel] to be, oh,

[0:05:32 Tracie] respectability politics to me. What that means is there are certain expectations, certain expectations of how you perform, how you move through systems, how you move through, specifically, education, how you interact with others. There’s

[0:05:45 Peniel] a level of who are the authors of those expectations.

[0:05:50 Tracie] The others of those expectations can be, I would say, if you’re thinking about in the educational system, those who you are trying to attain their level of position, those who

[0:06:08 Peniel] is actually white people is sometimes black

[0:06:11 Tracie] and

[0:06:11 Peniel] white

[0:06:11 Tracie] and black people

[0:06:12 Peniel] in black.

[0:06:12 Tracie] How are you that it’s widened by people? Because I know we just had a conversation on this with a friend, respectability, politics in the black community and how there’s often I guess the expectation and encouragement that you perform in a way that is appealing toe whiteness or to white people and so and thinking about respectability. Politics not only navigating those, but just navigating the expectations of the academy or what I would say, unwritten rules and expectations are things that are not always discussed. And so in understanding that and how black women navigate those. I wanted to understand how we navigated those in what we do when we navigate those and how Ah, lot of the ways that we navigate those and resistant was people might not necessarily notice because they’re not thinking about it from on expanded view of activism. But maybe the more traditional voting, um, going out in the public and doing political office or campaigning. And so I wanted to look at how this activism shows up, indifferent numerous ways along like a spectrum

[0:07:15 Peniel] that’s great. And I want you to want talk about your findings, but place them in historical context because I think that one of the things in the 21st century that is happening Visa vee these social movements like black lives matter is really centering black women’s roles in terms of leadership, as as political ah, in public intellectuals and organizer’s as architects and framers and not just participants in black freedom struggles, but really in all facets of society, you know, as entrepreneurs as a smothers Aziz writers, you know, really as the center rather than margin. So what did you find in terms of your research?

[0:08:06 Tracie] I was having a lot of interesting things. Um, some of them were things that are already knew because as a black woman moving through these spices of myself, experienced them with some of them were, um, unexpected. And so, I would say, in a historical context and specifically thinking about how black women and their leadership roles in these movements have often been muted. Or people don’t often talk about just the amount of work that black women have done the movements. I found that that is probably still true today from thinking about my conversations with the black woman who were in this study, and I would say that in thinking about this and the work that black women have done, I would say, historically, it’s a lot the same. So the organizer’s a lot of my findings. We had, like women who will who will organize and they were doing things in the background. So say if you think about in the educational system in thinking about trying to leave a legacy for others, that was one of my findings. So there was always this thought of I need to make things better for the person that comes after me and so organizing, going through systems in institutional systems in trying to create change through policies, systems. So that’s a form of activism that’s been happening from for from historical ins. And you have, like the civil rights movement where they’re trying to change policy. But then you also have the activism where the women were trying to change, make resistance or create change within their social spheres. And so the negative images, the negative representation of white women. There were a lot of things that they did in order to encourage each other and so uplift each other, and to make sure that when they move through the world, they were creating a different view of what black women were and how black women. How

[0:10:13 Peniel] did they do this specifically?

[0:10:15 Tracie] So I would say in creating a new image of how black women were. A lot of the time I got the comment of just being a black woman in the graduate space was resistance. And so I would say a lot of that was showing up and being in these spaces that often were point like mainly white, manly white spaces showing up in banning the spices. And so that has the opportunity to have a lot of these dialogues and to talk with with these individuals and to show that there are more than one ways toe view. A black woman who’s in graduate school was being educated who’s not necessarily the promiscuous or the Jezebel serial type of uneducated, all of the negative stereotypes that you get it by black women. So there was a lot of just being that was seen as a form of resistance, and not only

[0:11:09 Peniel] when you mentioned he’s Jezebel types and promiscuity was part of what, um, the research you found is that black women felt that they were being sort of hyper sexualized in these spaces in terms of the expectations of how their behaviour was supposed to be.

[0:11:24 Tracie] Yeah, hyper sexualized in that people may have view them a certain way because of what addressed be them a certain way because of the stash sassiness quote unquote that they had. So that’s one

[0:11:42 Peniel] example very presence

[0:11:43 Tracie] by the very presence, Um, the way they may have been assertive in a classroom and the way that they may not have backed down as other people thought they should have that now and so just a standing up in thes classroom settings and pushing back on some of the rhetoric that was coming out of, say, their own peers. Mouths was one way that they worked within their spirits to kind of deconstruct what other people thought of his but woman.

[0:12:20 Peniel] No, that’s great when we think about this and you know this notion of defining activism is just showing up. Do you think it’s both symbolic and substantive? In terms of just the very fact that black women graduate students are on predominately white campuses and institutions? The fact that they, you know, are writing the papers are intellectually participating. Is it symbolic? Is it substantive? Is it both in terms of that as a form of activism,

[0:12:49 Tracie] as hits both in that symbolically, if I’m interpreting your definitions and symbolically, um, I say it’s a symbol of the It’s a symbol of the fact that we can achieve. It’s a symbol of the fact that there are boundaries are barriers that are put in place to keep us from educational spaces and as we begin to break into those spaces, then we were able toe communicate the message that these are the specific barriers that come into play that keep you from getting into these spaces. So the rhetoric that you’re not good enough that you’re not smart enough, we can deconstruct that. And so that symbol and having that symbol there, symbol of representation, is very important. So symbolically, I would say that representation is important,

[0:13:46 Peniel] so the symbol becomes or the symbolism becomes substantive at the same time. Okay, What what are there aspects of black women activism in terms of these graduate students that you were looking at, that you saw me talked about policy, talked about just showing up what other? Because I know one of the things your research found was that there wasn’t a one size fits all, So these black women weren’t having this one model on how to achieve excellence. And they all did it. They all were doing different things.

[0:14:17 Tracie] They were all doing different things. That was fascinating. I had some who were doing it through their media about that. Yes, and I had a lot of conversation. Or that was just interesting because

[0:14:28 Peniel] it’s a media. Do you mean social, social

[0:14:30 Tracie] media And

[0:14:31 Peniel] what were they knew?

[0:14:32 Tracie] News outlets journal. Like college newspapers. They were doing it through a variety of ways. Um, Twitter, all of those things and the conversation about around that splint around. A lot of it talked about how people feel. It was armchair activism.

[0:14:48 Peniel] Interesting. Now, the day feel it was armchair activism or people were criticizing them. And what were they doing in social media, where they say it was a black girl? Magic Black girls are intellectuals, these graduates, since where they saying were they doing social media? Black lives, matter, activism, feminist activism? What were they doing?

[0:15:05 Tracie] Well, there were some who were actually participating in some of the prominent, and again they were participant in some of the prominent movements, and so they were actually out on the streets doing this. So I had one person, one participant, particularly. He was able to actually experience that, and her story was so fascinating. And so she was actually in the streets before the ones who were doing social media. Ah, lot of them are doing social media in the fact that they’re blogging about their experiences, the intersections of their experiences. They’re doing a lot of work on media in order to get communities together. So one specifically talked about how social media was a form of organizing, and it was also a form of bringing people together. And then one person was doing it through her lose outlet at her specific college, the university. And so you’re working against the administration who worked in the room of Respectability politics because it was at the Southern Institution. So then values. And so, in thinking about that, she was constantly trying to put out the stories and voices of black women. But fighting with an institution who was trying to, I would say mold and shape how that story took place. So that was the specific meeting, what I call media outlet, because this this newspaper was going out online and it was going out. It was like online motor communication.

[0:16:32 Peniel] So these were black women who were fighting against the sensor on the censure of their own voices, sometimes by white institutions but sometimes by black leaders within either white or historically black. And and that’s very interesting, because I want to stay with that for a second because I think about sort of the best selling y, a novel that was turned into film. The hate you give, I think about, um, Patrice Kahn colors in her memoir with ASHA Bandele A. When they call you a terrorist. So in some way there is sort of black women’s voices being commodified or being out in the public sphere. And I’m not criticizing that that, um, commodification. I’m just saying that it’s just the fact of being in sort of a capitalist political economy that by the time we say OK, black women’s voices should be heard. There’s going to be some that are elevated and gain access and others that that might not. But that least there’s an admission that there’s a marketplace for these ideas. Um, so when we think about media and sort of black women in media and when you think about black Twitter. So much of black Twitter is black women and black women shaping the discourse, even though I think maybe in pop culture, we think of black men’s voices shaping the discourse. And I think people are pushing back against that, especially with black lives matter. And the three black women Queer identified, Patricia Khan, Cullors and Opal Timidity and Alicia Garza and so many of them. So much of the leadership has been black women. Why do you think some people were criticizing black women as arm chair activists? Do you think that’s sort of instead of respectability? Politics? Is that authenticity? Politics, this idea that there’s There’s some mawr ways of being black that are more authentic than others. And that sort of social media was an authentic enough Why? Why do you think there was pushback?

[0:18:41 Tracie] I do think from my findings that a lot of them talked about how different forms of activism review differently and so we won’t talk about the armchair activism people who may have what I deem traditional visa activism as you’re in the streets. They think about the 19 fifties, the protests, the marches, armchair activism is like okay, you posting something on your Facebook page like Woo Hoo? That’s that’s all you’re going to do because it’s all that they’ve eat. Social media active isn’t met activism as. And So when we talked about armchair activism as something that got pushed back, it was in the room of it wasn’t like what I’m used to and so incoming in this new age where a lot of stuff takes place online and we’re in a technological age. Some people want more resistant to move with the times, and so those, I guess I won’t say. Well, I will say stoic ideas of what activism were got pushed. Um, those took ideas of what activism was supposed to be was what created the pushback against what they claim was armed your activism. And I believe it could be just because there’s just not understanding of the expansiveness of social media and how much it creates impact. And I believe now that people are starting to see that, and they’re coming around more to saying Okay, social media is activism. You know, I validated, but they’re always points along the way where I feel like specific actions are judged in in any historical context, like where specific activism may have been judged because some people may say, Oh, that’s too dangerous. Like, Why are you going to protest where you do incidents? Why are you organizing in this way? But I think that’s part of human nature, but also a part of times changing in periods changing and people haven’t suggest.

[0:20:33 Peniel] And I would add that I think black women’s activism historically gets devalued and undervalued. So, in a way, by the time you get to a space where so many black women are leading that space like a movement for black lives, um, you can get people devaluing that, you know, because even when we think about the pantheon of black leaders, a lot of times we don’t place black women and their leadership and their their way. Don’t center that, No, I wanna I wanna shift a little bit and really talk about now that you’ve graduated yourself and your doctor, um, Dr Tracy Low, um, black women in higher education and achievement and higher education. And really, I think one of the things that we see on one hand black women in terms of the numbers are doing much better than black men in the United States. And really, at every measure, when we think about higher education, more numbers, they’re finishing degrees there, finishing graduate degrees, medical degrees. It’s really but But on the other hand, we’d still see a posse t of black women in riel, senior leadership roles, universities. My first thought when I think about senior leadership role would be presidents of universities, especially presidents of P W I, predominately white institutions, prestigious institutions. But then, my second thought would be things like provost of the university and not just, you know, things that are connected student affairs and things that are connected to multiculturalism or, say, Chief of Diversity, you know, why is that? And when you think about your own research and in your own trajectory, what can be done to alter that we think about? And of course, some people might listening, might say, Well, what about Ruth Simmons? Or rather, what about thes air? I think in my mind, still out liars, unfortunately not, And I think they’re out liars, not in the sense that black women don’t have the ability to lead, but in terms of being given the opportunity. So you have Ruth Simmons. You have Joanne Burgers. Sweeney. Who’s president? Trinity, the new president of Wellesley is African American woman. So there are some and certainly one of the greatest of all times is genetic. Be Cole of Spellman. I’m going back 30 years ago. But why? Why is that the case of what can we do? What strategies can we we put in place for black women to succeed and thrive in that level? Not only get these doctorates, but move up and become, um, institutional leaders and institutional builders and then in turn, open up those institutions to both black women and black people.

[0:23:28 Tracie] I think first of all, it starts with just the appropriate mentorship, because a lot of times people don’t know what they don’t know. And to know that the opportunity exists to run an institution is just thinking about that. Often we re coming up. Our parents might know what a doctor lawyer is, judge, And so just even thinking about the context of education. Some people steer people away from education because it’s seen as something that’s valuable for you to get, but not necessarily for you to be an employee of the educational system because of pay or whatever. So I think it starts with just building first of all, unawareness of these opportunities that happen. So building on awareness of a Korean education and thinking about a current education outside of teaching, thinking about the fact that you can be an administration and you can run these institutions and you can create change. But I always say specifically for me and thinking about even the undergraduate in the graduate level.

[0:24:27 Peniel] And where did you go to Undergrad

[0:24:29 Tracie] Texas A and M University? Yes, I know. I’m in Longhorn country. Yes, I am tensions between the two, um, but Texas and, um University. So I was navigating a predominately white space as an undergrad, and even in thinking back then, I had no idea with higher, like the opportunities and higher education until someone pulled me aside and said, Hey, this is something that you seem like you have a skill set for that you’re interested in and they open the door and they hooked me up with a graduate coordinator for a higher it program.

[0:25:03 Peniel] I hear that all the time. Tracy were also not told when we I remember doing my PhD were not told when we’re at these institutions that we are good enough and worthy enough to run these institutions, Yes. And then we see ah, whole load of other people running these institutions its lucrative, its power, its leadership. It’s all these different things. And lo and behold, you realize that, Hey, these people aren’t more intelligent than there were back there running the institution.

[0:25:34 Tracie] Yes, and I remember specifically the Now that you bring this out, I was in your course and we talked about, you know, hired administration. And I made the comment and you were like, What do you want to be a present? And that was like, Ah, I don’t know if you want to go up that high, it’s too much like, I guess, too much political tugs and tensions. And so, since then, um, I thought about being president of the university and trying to figure out the past to get there. But in thinking about figuring out that path, I think that’s another thing. That mentorship is important because as I’m navigating this, I have to depend on a lot of people to be able to be open enough to me in order to instruct me to tell me, you know, these of things you might not know. These are the people that you need to connect with these air. The conference that she needs to go to This is the next step that you need to take in order to get to that presidency. Like if you if I need a business background, if I need to take a particular position student affairs to get to the deanship. But those little nuances in those steps or something that, as a person, was the first generation student I don’t know. I was first generation, everything first generation under Grand Master’s PhD. And so the fact that I don’t know these things, it’s a bit intimidating to even ask to even go approach someone for for fear of, you’ll feel dumb. You feel like you’re an imposter, so you shouldn’t even be there in the first place. And so, like I said, mentorship, opening the doors, having more people in these spaces who are people of color who are willing to do the mentorship without getting the cultural taxation that happens because they are the only person in that space,

[0:27:21 Peniel] and so who are strong advocates and feel really a responsibility and not a burden through the advocacy and that the institution provides. Resource is so you can further that advocacy. So I think that’s great. My last question really is, you know, where do we go from here both When you think about your research, when you think about black women in general and black graduate students in the Southwest was your research, But I want you think nationally and then you personally what you you’d like to do. Where do we go from here? In terms of black women who are receiving these advanced degrees intellectually ambitious, great organizer’s, they feel an ethical obligation to the community, a moral obligation for uplift and social transformation. Citizenship, especially of black girls and women but the entire community. What can be done? Where do you see it heading, You know, in in the 21st century? In the next 10 years, how does it look?

[0:28:21 Tracie] I would say right now it’s in a positive direction. I’m seeing a lot more research and calls for research on black wounds, specifically in education and overall. So the conversations are opening up, and I feel that we really need to push the needle, and it just needs to be just black women along. So that’s an important thing. Like our issues should not be just important to us. They should be important to everyone. Absolutely. In order for that to happen, we do have to create these partnerships and collaborations with those who are willing to take our issues and make them central. So centralizing our issues off it like is the next step in pushing, pushing our agendas for in getting us. The resource is that when the in all areas, because they’re all connected education in just one area, one area that I’m very familiar with. But I do know experiencing America as a black woman that there several of the areas that need attention and so next steps, I guess, is to keep the research coming, making sure that our voices are out there and they’re like you said, not devalued, that we are valuing the conversations that are had that our troops serving her, they’re considered valid, and the people are really listening to what we have to say because often would not listen to, and we’re not heard and an important step is being heard. And in the next 10 years, I’m hoping that there will be more progress that seeing a black woman in a presidency won’t be something. That’s Ah, like, um, yet

[0:29:52 Peniel] it’s

[0:29:52 Tracie] surprising, um, but that we’re having more people in these spaces who, because who can become and source, who can open the doors. So like, he said, there’s there’s a pathway to doing this. It just requires work from everyone. And that’s what I feel like is key.

[0:30:09 Peniel] Well, that will be the final word on this. Hopefully, you know, Dr Tracy Low is a future president of ah ah, you know, College University, whether that’s P W, I or HBCU, that that would be lucky enough to have her. But it’s been a great conversation. I think the work you’re doing is tremendous, and you know, I love toe have you back, and you really chart your progress and your ascent in higher education.

[0:30:42 Tracie] All right, I enjoyed this interview, so thank you.

[0:30:45 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.