Ep. 14 – Religion and the Politics of Local to Global State-Making in Modern Nigeria: A Conversation with Dr. Olufemi Vaughan

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Welcome to race in democracy. We’re very pleased to have as our guest on this episode of our podcast Doctor Oluwafemi Vaughan, who was the Alfred Sergeant and Mary Aims Lee, professor of Black studies and African Studies at Amorous College and really one of the world’s most foremost experts on African history and, um, Nigerian history. And you have a new book which we’re going to be discussing today. Religion and the making of Nigeria. Ah, Professor Vaughan welcome to race in democracy.

[0:00:55 Olufemi] It’s a pleasure to be here, Professor Joseph. Thanks very much for inviting May and for having may, um, if I can just say one or two things very quickly. It felt really strange when I refer to you as Professor Joseph. Of course you are, Professor Joseph. I’ve you don’t mind. I’ll just say Peniel. Peniel is a very dear friend and brother going on 26 years there about I’m just so honored to be here, and I’m humbled

[0:01:27 Peniel] more. Maybe you’re almost 30 years,

[0:01:29 Olufemi] that is, it will head damaging myself. So, It’s a pleasure to to be here. I’m really humbled to be in your student on anything having to do with race. Democracy Africana studies over the past 25 years or so once upon a time, uh, you were on the other side. I remember meeting at Stony Brook University in my African and African diaspora. Thought class. Where you an undergraduate student, If I can say so. I am just so proud of you. Uh, thanks so much for having me.

[0:02:06 Peniel] Professor Vaughan is being too kind. He’s my first historian. Besides my my mother, who taught me everything that I know and inspired me to become a professor. So it’s really a treat to have him here. Um, Professor Vaughan Lots to discuss. I want toe start with a question. Broad based question, because you are really one of the foremost africanist in the country. And you’ve done so much on state formation and the politics of 19th and 20th and 21st century Nigeria. What sparked your interest in the study of religion and the making of Nigeria,

[0:02:39 Olufemi] So I should mention that I am not a student of religion. I’m a student of politics and history. Um much of my research of other years, oftentimes very much like yours of Aiken, says air, prompted by enduring problems and crisis, often times what we discuss rather in the popular media. Oh, evenness scholars, quite superficially within very limited, analytical frame of reference and theoretical perspectives. And the social sciences and humanities have in Germany, uh, roots and foundations and origins. They tend to be quite structural. So in a way, just right after 9 11 there was just so much about about Islamicist in the context of the geopolitics of the war on terror. And I think most of these questions and issues were quite wrong headed. To be perfectly honest with you, people were making all kinds of authoritative interventions without knowing exactly what they’re talking about. They have no expertise whatsoever to make such claims about Muslims and Islamicist. I happen to, as you know, I was born and raised in Nigeria, in southwestern Nigeria. Nigeria is gonna very longest streak off religious reconciliation, accommodation between its two world religions of Islam and Christianity. But it’s also had a very long history of religious tensions and sometimes confrontations. Those tensions tend to be regional. They’re very much in northern and central Nigeria. The part of Nigeria where I grew up southwestern Nigeria region of the U about people is what I refer to as the crossroads of Islam and Christianity. It’s one of the dominant ethno linguistic region in Africa. South of the Sahara, Christians and Muslims live together quite peacefully. No confrontations between them. So I have a particular comparative perspective to know that the kind of argument of up off a clash of civilization if I can use that type of on Tintin Ian Idea is just really on its very basis, wrong and wrong headed.

[0:05:00 Peniel] Okay, let’s stop there. Um, I want you to get to the crux in the heart of the matter because I think a lot of our listeners will be interested in this book is in a way, it explains when we think about the crisis of state formation in Nigeria. But also when we think about Boko Haram, when we think about this idea of radical Islam, the idea of Islam being in Nigeria as something that is upsetting civilization Sharia law, uh, the these different I want you toe get to the heart of what are some of the arguments that the book makes. And really, when we put this, you talk in your introduction about placing religion in the making of modern Nigeria in the long duration, this long duration, What is history and historical context? How does that help us understand? Boko Haram. It helps us understand the crisis of the Nigerian state when we think about democratic processes in the Nigerian state and when there’s been authoritarian rule in the Nigerian state. There’s been civil war in the Nigerian state. But there’s also been decolonization, and you start your book by talking about how Nigeria is, you know, the world’s biggest oil producer, and we think about the wealth and the resource is of Nigeria. And really, the intellectual capital that has flown from Nigeria into the United States, especially over the last 35 40 years, has been truly amazing. In a way, we become a country that’s not just African American, but that’s Nigerian American as well.

[0:06:28 Olufemi] Yes, so So what I What I did in this book is was very much informed by what I done in a number of my previous books, particularly one of my earlier books. Nigerian chiefs um uh, which I was published about, published in 2000 and in that particular book. Also, I took very seriously the historicity off African structures and the kinds of practices, doctrines, ideas and ideologies that generate, So that long historical perspective is important. So for me, it’s really very important to think very carefully about structures of African societies, not so much as civil society that we all know very well fed African states as we know it. African nations. It’s a really obvious charity and superficial constructs to come out of a very UN imposed colonial encounter and a very short colonial encounter, for that matter. Most African states, modern states, as we know them, would derive from this encounter, essentially at the turn of the 20th century. So for all intents and purposes, African states, their colonial origins, air nor more nor less than roughly about 50 years, 60 years colonialism itself never quite consolidated its power in much of Africa. On still Rafi of other 19 twenties 19 thirties. Now the question really is to what extent can we talk about African nation states with our thinking about the structures with all structures of thes societies, These are very old societies, going back many, many centuries as we very well known. Nigeria is exceptional in this particular frame it precisely because of its size. It’s a country with a population today of 195 million people and well over 250 distinct ethno linguistic groups.

[0:08:32 Peniel] Now Uraba is the large

[0:08:33 Olufemi] Yorba is one of the largest one of the big Three house of Fulani Uraba Honey Boo are the three dominant once, but even the relatively small ones have populations exceeding 20 million people. There are roughly about 40 million euro bars in Nigeria alone. There are also your a buzz in the Republic of Benin and Togo. So my question really is as we engage African realities, we need to take structural questions and historical questions very seriously, not as conventional historians, but its story. We need to historicity eyes, African structures of society. So that method, a logical question is that very much of the core off this book

[0:09:14 Peniel] and when you, when we historicity eyes them what we find in terms of Christianity and so what you talk about and can you explain to us what’s mission Christianity, you talk about that

[0:09:23 Olufemi] s omission. Christianity is the evangelical Christian movements that came out of the late 18th century. I mean, it’s a global phenomenon, a while front. Unfortunately, it was really very interesting is in the academy. And I would say that because of our somewhat anti cleric tendencies, we really don’t take these religious movements very seriously.

[0:09:49 Peniel] And for Nigeria’s specifically UAE’s mission, Christianity is so important.

[0:09:53 Olufemi] Mission Christianity is so important because it’s so much wedded to Atlantic politics and history in of itself. Mission. Christianity is very much at the art of the at the British onto slavery movement in in, in the in the last two decades of the 18th century Mission. Christianity, in the case of Nigeria’s, would lead to the Church Missionary Society, one of the most powerful, influential global missionary society in the world. This is really very much of the movement that that major African Africana intellectual such as Aquinnah, were part of a union. Wilberforce was part of so so in a way, in understanding the British anti slavery, the English and the anti slavery movement, right? We also have to think about this in the context of what off the role of missions aside. Mission Mission. Christianity claiming to be quote um, a civilising mission. These are very much connected to the rise of Syria Lee Yun and having implications four Liberia in the early 19th century. And you go and and shape in much of what became the connection between African society and Western society in the West African coast, a region in much of the 19th century. All these questions are essential to understand the role of colonialism at the turn of the 20th century.

[0:11:33 Peniel] And you talk about CMS and you talk about CMS at times inadvertently filling out or fulfilling the prerogatives of British colonialism imperialism. I want to talk about that. And you also introduced this term, Um so kowtow jihad and what What is that Visa vee, the Christian missionary

[0:11:57 Olufemi] again. So the so Kyoto Jihad of this is just really. In the 18th century and the early 19th century to the mid 19th century, there were waves off Islamic reformist movements in Sahelian, West Africa. The main objective off these off these Islamic um, reformist movement essentially is to transform society on the on a massive scale. So these are really big state builders. They themselves are imperialist by large. Their main objective is to purify Islam,

[0:12:36 Peniel] and there’s a psycho toe.

[0:12:37 Olufemi] So Kyoto is by far the so Coto is by far the most influential off all the major five off such movements. So we’re talking here about major state builders. They’re having conversations that are local. But those conversations also a regional and global. They’re really there. Major transaction points between the sale and the Magreb. They’re looking north and a looking East. The so called caliphate came out of the G atavus Mandan, 40 year. The G, Ottawa’s Mandan, four years. The Secreto Jihad. This ultimately led to a major Islamic Confederacy. This Islamic Confederacy is what the British ultimately inherited, and essentially, what they built their colonial project in the indirect rule system. So to really talk about British colonialism, it’s going to be very important to see the convergence between one great original movement in the so called Georgie Odd and another great global movement in Christian of a Western oriented, um, Christian evangelical movement coming from coming from Atlantic West Africa, it’s the convergence of those two forces. Ultimately, that provides the structural bases for what is today’s Nigeria. That’s essential argument of the book. Great

[0:14:02 Peniel] and we have so much more I want to explore. I want you to very briefly talk about indigenous religions and the connections briefly because I want

[0:14:13 Olufemi] yeah, so a question of indigenous city is always very interested as we all very well. No, we have to ask the question. What is indigenous? What is an indigenous? He should not be confused for what is authentic Islam in northern Nigeria in the same hell, I would argue his indigenous because it’s been there for a long time. Islam is not new in the sile in contempt. Pre Mauritania malley Chad, northern Nigeria So than Cameroon’s all the way to northern Sudan. To the one of Africa, Islam is very much an essential element, an integral part of how society is made over time. So we’re not talking here about a religion, but we’re talking about structures of societies. I can get really very important to to draw that distinction when I what I revert as indigenous religion is often times what people might refer to as court tribal African religions. I refuse to use that, okay, in part because I mean these air. Really? These are old, rich, exciting religion that have walled views and costs. Moloch. Jeez, that explain the human existence. Okay, so right. So so in a way. By defining those indigenous religions as tribal pagan religions, those religions essentially, um, those religions or one might say cosmologies and worldviews. Essentially what, um, Islamic reformism attempted to capture and bring on its control in the 19th century. The so called for a jihad

[0:15:57 Peniel] and certainly the staccato jihad and the Christian missionary. They all have an impact on these indigenous

[0:16:03 Olufemi] absolutely old school over. So that so The Pettitte. So the point of pet a two point of domination and control and abuse. It’s often times the so called pagan that is what assaulted, right? So these two world religions as very much in the business of trying to incorporate pagan religions or tribal religions what I refer to in the book as indigenous traditional African religions in northern Nigerian, central Nigeria, Northern Nigerian, central Nigeria, vastly at the raw genius, the Afro genius. In terms of religious beliefs, Muslims come in all card from all kinds of doctrines and traditions. Careers, engineers, amongst others.

[0:16:53 Peniel] Now I want I want but the time we have left cause I still want to talk about which I’m gonna get to now decolonization and then the war on global terror. Now you set up a very, very interesting and historically complicated backdrop for Nigeria and decolonization. So Nigeria’s de colonized in 1960. And when we think about or not in the 1950 in the 1950 gain independence toga night in stocks over 1960. Considering this complex religious, uh, you know, these were these religions that are connected to state formation and civil society and politics and Nigeria talk to us about the Nigerian civil war and just this idea of the Nigerian state after independence. And what role does Christianity and Islam and these indigenous religions play in? You talk about the turbulent 19th century, but certainly it’s a turbulent post independence of Nigeria in the 19 sixties seventies eighties. Until sort of, you know, when we think about transition to democracy, that democratic structures into the 21st century that you talk about so talk about that in terms of how does Christianity and Islam and religion played a role in the making of this new nation

[0:18:14 Olufemi] state. Oh, that’s a very good, difficult question to unpack in. What, Just about 2345 minutes. I I shall try and see what I can do, but I have to go back. A bit of you. Don’t mind. Now try to be brief. So the 19th century, when I refer to the 19th century’s atop Ueland period. The 19th century was consumed in southwestern Nigeria, the region of the euro. But people was consumed by literally 70 years, 80 years of warfare. It’s called a your about wars with serious implications for Atlantic slavery. The connection between Brazil and Cuba is really very much a connected to that opulent 19th century. So I raised this question because I think it’s really very important for us to understand the region on nature of what became Nigeria. Nigeria is a very regional country, so Nigeria currently has God seeks Jew political cultural zones. Um, the now just mentioned a couple of those own. So there’s the house of Fulani cannery, Muslim North, which is the region I’ve been talking about, and I would refer to that essentially as a sigh alien region where Islam predominates. The house of People and Houses. City states are by far the most pervasive in this particular region. There’s the central part of Nigeria, which was incorporated by the British into the northern Nigerian protectorate. This region is a non Muslim area. The brace refer to this region a vast region as the region of off off pagans. Ultimately, because of the politics and the policies of indirect rule and the negotiation between British administrators and um, Muslim powerbrokers in the North, Christian evangelical movements were allowed sorely to proselytize in central Nigeria, so that region is not Christianized, so that’s a second zone. The third zone is the southwest. That’s the region of the euro people. I referred to it as the Christian Muslim crossroads but indigenous African religions also very strong in the southwest, the region that produces much of Nigeria’s oil. Nigeria’s wealth, the delta region is what we refer to as the south south and then, of course, the southeast, which is dominated by the able people in terms of by Afro and Nigeria. Nigerian buyer for a walk. The Zune off conflict was the south, east and the south south, so I think it’s really very important to understand that f No original, ethno linguistic, ethno religious dynamics that would go back several, you know, several decades before independence. So we call on eyes. A Chicana decolonization was largely in negotiation between the dominant, um, pa brokers, political elites, national elites in these various zones. Nigeria’s exceptional in so many ways, because much of the negotiations were regional negotiations, right, not a national room. You cannot from Nigeria as a national entity because of the strength off the regions and because of the size of the country because of their throw. Jean witty of the country itself in terms of religion, in terms of ethnicity, in terms of language, in terms of culture, in terms of city states. So what the British did right, right after World War, to start in in 1947. But moving on to the mid 19 fifties is to have these negotiation between the leaders over the major regions. That project ultimately broke down literally after Nigeria again its independence. I mean, it’s a very superficial as you can imagine, project it’s just imposed. It’s a constitutional negotiation between so many regions that I just think we don’t want to be together by frankly and have no history whatsoever have been together at least not as a as a united political entity. So trying to strike

[0:22:31 Peniel] about decolonization here from especially from an African American perspective, we think about people like nom de aza ki way and thes figures. And we do think of Nigeria as this sort of cohesive state. Far from it. Yeah, and it’s far from frost. So I want e. I want to, um, talk about the age of terror because, really the idea of Boko Haram up the way in which Nigeria is now talked about in the news and then contemporary. I think your book is very, very important to shedding light on this, um, the crisis of after 9 11 and where people look as as sort of Nigeria is a hotbed, a seed of terror, Right? Um and they think of it as something new. Why are these these folks Boko, Haram, kidnapping people? Why is there all this violence that’s connected to, um, radical Islam want you to discuss that?

[0:23:31 Olufemi] Yes. So, um so I I see radical Islamicist militants very much as a fundamental aspect of the contradiction of the Nigerian state in society 19. That’s really the way to frame it and to put this and it’s a proper historical perspective. What became Boko? Haram, in fact, is not new in Nigerian politics and society in central and mostly northern Nigerian, certain parts of another Nigeria. But this phenomenon became extremely common by the late 19 seventies as the contradictions of the Nigerian state deepens. We also have Islamicist off different ideological and doctrine ear perspectives in positions emergen out of the inner, barely off northern Nigerian society. Northern Nigeria is one of the poorest regions in the world, but it’s also one of the most cohesive as a result of its connection with Islam. Yeah, Northern Nigeria, one can argue, is very much what the rest of the country define itself against another. Nigeria will also define itself against the rest of the country in so many ways because it’s really quite distinctive now. The deeper the contradictions of the state, that is to say, ah, essentially a state ism and a new patrimony ALS system that is feeling the vast majority of Nigerians in a postcolonial moment. The more the tendency off, um, religion in this particular instance, Islam to assert itself in society in northern Nigerian Muslim society and to provide temporary answers for people’s problems. So that’s really one way to think about this. That response in its rat in its most radical militant form, is what I would refer to as Islamicist radical Islamicist, and that can take different shapes in the context of Boko Haram, specifically Boko Haram came out of the long crisis off military rule in the 19 eighties and 1990. So Nigeria’s current civil democratic government emerged in 1999 within 23 years of that emergence

[0:26:03 Peniel] after never second, why was the country so susceptible to military rule before this emergence of democracy?

[0:26:09 Olufemi] Well, because of all the things I’ve been talking about, authoritarian regimes always going to be, you play a key role when you have such deep structural divisions where this is a

[0:26:21 Peniel] very Christian or they were Muslim, were they? There were really

[0:26:27 Olufemi] always some type of an elite consensus right, although often times the north northern Muslims tend to predominate. So Nigeria’s political elites have a way of finding alliances and forming coalitions to govern, largely because of the nature of the role of oil in Nigerian politics and society. Who controls this oil? Professor Vaughan Well, then I, Jim, political class.

[0:26:56 Peniel] But specifically you’ve just told us about the six regions,

[0:26:59 Olufemi] the political classes off the three off the off the major regions. So this is really what I refer to as elite consensus. So they grapple. They gripe against one another, they confront one another. They make allegations against one another. But in actual fact, they also have a reason to stay together. And this is why Nigeria is not going to divide any time soon Precisely because oil holds Nigeria together. The revenue generated from you know, oil Nigeria is the fundamental Ron Tea estate. Oil is the lifeblood off the Nigerian political class. Right? So if you if you think about it that way, the regional, the ethno original elites that I’ve been political classes I’ve been talking about political as well as manage Ariel have a reason to keep Nigeria together long way or another, whether it’s a through military rule or civil democratic government. So democracy and governance 90 you’re very interested in democracy, Given all that you’ve done in the centre democracy in Nigerian Democratic transitions and questions of liberal constitutional constitutionalism is always going to be, and it’s always going to be a walking progress in an environment like that. We cannot really talk about democracy and good governance with are taking very seriously the structures off state society. Okay, there’s a structural imbalance between state and society. Then it becomes very difficult to manage democracy and good governance.

[0:28:40 Peniel] I want to stop there and talk about public policy because one of the things your book says quite sharply and I think eloquently right at the end of the introduction is about all these different public policy questions when it comes toe Sharia law, when it comes toe democracy and the Constitution and Conflict Resolution, what are some policy implications for your deep study of religion in the making of modern Nigeria?

[0:29:10 Olufemi] So So I am very much interested, as I stated in the book, in in Public Policy, but I am not interested in superficial public policy like you. I think if we’re really going to engage questions of off public policy, we also have to understand we need a distinctive introduced Mary perspective. We need to take the subject matter very seriously. we cannot do, in my view, public policy just simply by using one analytical perspective or tool or methods. So my work is a very, very much, I hope, distinctively into disciplinary and taking the subject very seriously. What drives my thinking about actionable public policy is not just simply to find simple answers, but rather to raise very difficult questions. And from those difficult questions past, we can now begin to think off off meaningful, enduring public policy. So what specific reference to the politics of Sharia, which is so central to Nigeria, ask a couple of

[0:30:08 Peniel] question. You tell us what Sharia law is, which is

[0:30:11 Olufemi] eso Sharia Sharia. In the Nigerian context, it’s very well. We have to define Sharia in juxtaposition to English common law. Because Nigeria is a former British colony. What predominates in the public square is British common English common law, I should say, but then also you also have what is referred to as customary law as opposed to see Islamic law. Islamic law is Sharia Islamic law, but Sharia operates in Nigeria, a number of levels in large measure because northern Nigeria is what one might refer to as the house of Muslims. Because Islam is deeply embedded structurally in northern Nigerian society, it would be virtually impossible not to have some version off limited Islamic law in northern Nigeria. I am not an advocate of even this limited application of Sharia, but I’m a realist. So under the British, the British negotiated with the leaders of northern Nigeria, house of Fulani and Cannery Muslims to limit Sharia to personal law, matters pertaining to inheritance marriages and so on. Even at that level, Sherry is still, in my view, extremely negative towards women and girls. But now what has happened in Nigeria’s The Nigerian crisis deepened in a postcolonial moment starting in the 19 seventies. Every single time you have a constitutional negotiation off national meaning in Nigeria, Islamicist off different ideological persuasions. Clerics, even very well educated modernist will make the question of Sharia central question. Now what they’re calling for is to advocate for Sharia to have implications for civil and criminal matters, in other words, to have two distinctive types of law in one country, one under English common law and the 2nd 1 under what I would say on restricted Sharia, no down Sharia will govern virtually everything. You cannot have one country were two fundamentally different laws.

[0:32:31 Peniel] With the time we have left, how would you? How would you tackle

[0:32:34 Olufemi] that? How would you tackle that? Well, uh, the solution since such a problem is not in my view, is not a constitutional solution. It’s a political solution. Strengthen the state. Yeah. How did you strengthen the agencies? The instrumentalities, the moral authority that the legitimacy off the state and you will not have people clamoring for expanded sharing on restricted Islamic law week in the state he rode the instrumentalities legitimacy moral authorities off the modern state, the post colonial state. Then you will have people as clamoring for expanded sherry on restricted Chaerea, predicated on the failure off the modern state Every single time the state fails the masses of ordinary people in northern Nigeria, the default solution is to coalesce behind a Sharia movement. So the question I have for you is a structure of the answer I have for user is a structural answer. How you do that? I wish I know how to do that. Right. But out what I can say is not so much how you do it, but rather what is required right? What is required is to understand fundamentally the importance of the strength of the nation, state and build in civil society. If you have institutions that work educational institutions, um, if you have basic health, kid full people if you have, if you have economic systems that productive if you have a schooling for young women for girls, um, then the state and civil society is able to largely defined the character of society when you have an erosion off the instrumentalities off the state, when the state lacks moral authority and legitimation something something else, often times something quite negative, even something quite sinister will feel that gap left behind the gap vacated by the instruments of the state. So this is really about the moral authority in the legitimacy of the state. It’s about the ways in which you have to connect structures of society to states to test a state systems. When you have a major incongruity between the two, when you have us a major structural imbalance between state institutions and structures of society, society will find a way to feel that gap. Islamization in northern and central Nigeria, particularly northern Nigeria’s oftentimes the answer extreme form of Islamist militancy and insurgency, playing itself out in the request for a total and complete Sharia. Now what steps in as a strategy off collective, political and social mobilisation? Most of the time it ends up in what in disaster very quickly. So the argument here is that this is largely a default solution to a very, very deep problem. It’s perceived to be a solution, but in fact it is not a solution. Northern Nigeria doesn’t have a long history of expanded Sharia, but Sharia provides a wonderful mechanism and medium and strategy to to a mobile eyes the vast masses off ordinary, impoverished northern Nigerian house and they’re called talaq Allah. Religion can be sore. Appealing in this particular context can serve as a very powerful mobilizing force. It is not a solution, but it’s a very limited response toe a deep crisis off the state. The deeper the crisis of the state, the more you will have Islamicist making claims on on Nigerian society and Nigerian state

[0:37:18 Peniel] my final question religion in the making of Nigeria. Why should the West be so interested in this? Why should students of not just Africa and I. I know why, but I want you to tell us in terms of students of policy students of law and society history students who are interested in America, not necessarily interested in the entire world. Why that should they be interested in religion in the making of modern Nigeria,

[0:37:47 Olufemi] or all religion in the making of any other post colonial nation state, for that matter, Pakistan into you? Uh, Somalia, Sudan. These questions very important questions. The Arabian Peninsula. These issues well, they have to be, I mean, for the reasons that I got interested, A ZAY said earlier. A student of history and politics, not a student of religion. Religion matters a great deal. Most of the people that we teach most of the people. We talked to most of the people that we study in our research and scholarship of profoundly religious and spiritual people. They just believe whether we like it or not him in spirit beings in ways in which we in the academy tend not to. I think it’s reasonable to say that Western oriented intellectuals and academics are very much anti cleric. They’re anti cleric night omen that as a pejorative or negative the end their anti cleric without even knowing the anti cleric. They just simply don’t engage questions pertaining to religion. They often times leave issues pertaining to religion to relatively small religious studies departments. We don’t study religion in sociology and political signs and history in ways in which we ought to an anthropology as a fundamental aspect of state and society making. If most of the people we study and most of the societies we study profoundly religious, then I think it’s incumbent on us to now begin to take religion very seriously. African Americans, for example, that profoundly religious people, for example. But we even in African studies, if I can be a bit self critical and reflective, we don’t do enough in in in Africana intellectual tradition in black studies to take religion very seriously. So I think, I think precisely because we need to imagine the aspirations of local people, and we need to meet them where they are, where they live, where they reproduce themselves. Can you imagine not studying charismatic Pentecostalism in the global south? In countries like Brazil, Nigeria? This is not just simply a religious phenomenon. As a movement It’s a so social phenomenon off mind boggling proportion in a political want, in my view, the most important in the global age in the age of globalization. But we’re not doing enough to engage these kinds of questions. Was charismatic Pentecostalism a revival, revival oriented Christianity gaining grounds? Why are why islamicist off different kinds? Salafi movements, Sufi movements, Kataria to Janiya, gaining grounds in a in a transnational? Why they helping us to understand or to reflect on the ways in which the local and the global Inter stacked as a dialectical process the ways in which is the national the transnational, original and trance, regional tradition and modernity intersect. These questions are, by their very nature, the cover wide variety off fields in the humanistic social sciences and the arts so forming precisely because off their place in the age of new liberal globalism, religion is arguably the most important force shaping riel societies. We need to show now switch our attention as Africanist intellectuals and scholars and students to that particular subject. We need to do this in the context of African studies, African American Studies, Africa diaspora studies. This is what high attempted to do in my own small way in this book.

[0:41:35 Peniel] Very well said Thank you, Professor Oluwafemi Vaughan Alford, Sergeant and Mary Aims Lee, professor of black studies in African Studies, his brand new book, Religion and the Making of Nigeria. This is a wonderful book and really a path breaking, ground breaking, um, addition to the literature on religion and Africa, but really a singular contribution in terms of religion in the making of modern Nigeria. Thank you for

[0:42:07 Olufemi] Thank thanks very much, Professor Joseph. Or have him. It’s been a pleasure being with you. And, uh, I should also mention if, you know, I just have to say this. I am incredibly proud of you. I’ve been your student now for the past 25 years, being learning from you, um, on all things, African studies. You’ve been my teacher in so many ways. It’s always very interesting when you have the shift. When once upon a time, one of your most imaginative engage in I remember, um, that course on Africa quality is Aziz essentially African in African intellectual tradition and how you bring in these big books. You’ve read all of them even then and how your question me inquiry me and really encouraged me to to reflect on my own assertions and lectures and so on and and I I have to say that it’s been one of my my most wonderful lives experience. Quite frankly, it’s been a joy and a delight being your friend and brother over these wonderful 26 short years. Thank you so much.

[0:43:26 Peniel] Thank you. You’re being too kind for the past 30 30 years. Yeah. Festive on has been my mentor, so I’m very, very thanks. Excited to have him today. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.