Ep. 13 – Latinx Politics, Immigration, New Generations of Interracial Coalitions: A Conversation with Dr. Victoria DeFrancesco Soto

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. We are pleased to have with us Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, whose director, civic engagement and a lecturer at the LBJ School of Public Affairs, a political scientist by training, with an expertise in politics, especially Latino. That next politics. And we’re gonna have a conversation, really, about the state of Latino politics. Visa vee, Um, American democracy, the 2020 election, what happened in 2020 midterms and really immigration and how immigration has been used as a wedge issue in all sorts of ways. A wedge issue between Latinos and whites, but also Latinos and other people of color. This idea that Latinos, um, whether they might be from Mexico or from Honduras or Nicaragua are stealing American jobs or stealing American birthright and entitlement, including harming people of color. So we want to talk about, um, all of that and really my My my first question to you, um, Vicky is, um you know what is Latina and Latino Latin X politics. You teach a course on this, You teach a graduate seminar on this? What is it?

[0:01:37 Victoria] Right So, uh, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this podcast. Latin X. I think I want to take a step back first, because when we’re talking about Latino with the X at the end, a really is a multidimensional identity, and it’s one that we really have to ground in generations. So it is very much one that is affiliated with youth. If I had to put a number on it, I would say 18 to 29. The other aspect of Latin X different from Latino, Latino Hispanic is that, um it is a rejection of the status quo. It is a rejection of, um, these notions of gendered identity that can be repressive to our LGBT Q A. Folks. So the Spanish language is gender like other romance languages, so either ends with an A or an O. So this new generation of of Latin necks are rejecting that in saying, You are not going to gender me, I am going to define myself. So it’s one of asserting one’s own identity, and and I think it’s interesting and thinking about Latin X identity, the Latino youth identity, more broadly speaking, in today’s political world, we’re living in a political moment, the trump political moment where there’s a lot of divisiveness. There’s a lot of chunking up of in group out group black, white, Latino, Asian immigrant nonimmigrant. So I think that the Lati necks have really found their voice in this moment because they reject that, um, inclusivity. That has become a trademark of this moment and just more generally of group identities, which tend to be very, um, you know, constraining. So you think in terms of what is Latin X? One word is that it’s broad and it’s inclusive.

[0:03:48 Peniel] That’s great. Um, before even getting down into what the impact is going to be in these elections, How does race figure into that Latin X identity, especially when I think about Latin America? Um, if we’re talking about sort of, uh, Brazil, or if we’re talking about, um, Chile or Argentina, I think about sort of differences between, um, Mexico, Nicaragua, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Visa Vee. Some people are defining themselves as Afro Latin Latin X, where Afro Latino versus some who seem, um to be very excited about just ah Latino identity and in others who really seem to be excited about more Western identity and say, You know, we are basically Europeans. Um, we were basically white. And so what about those sort of tensions within that identity?

[0:04:41 Victoria] And they exist? Absolutely. Where, ah, you know, there. Some after look Latinos who say, You know this is distinct than the broader Latin X identity. Um Ultimately, though, I think it is coming down to generation and to youth, where younger Latinos see more fluidity across identities, be those sexual gender identities, be those racial and ethnic identities. So it’s a little bit more of a catch all but at the same time, you know, coming from, um, you know, my background in political psychology and understanding the importance of social group identities in our behavior. We can’t just say, All right, we’re gonna have one umbrella term for everything, and your individual sub identities don’t matter. We can never let that go because they do. They are more particular identifiers. But in terms of broadening, helping a race, maybe divisions that existed beforehand, I think that maybe an Afro Latino and a more European Latino are seeing more alike than not than previous generations of Chicanos and boutique was Did.

[0:05:52 Peniel] When you think about those Chicanos and Barack was, how do they fit into this new Latin X identity? Because I know being from New York, I grew up around Puerto Ricans and Dominicans who are very proud of a very specific kind of identity that was neither on some levels, black nor white, but sometimes mixes of all of those things, but very political to how does that fit in to this new Latin X?

[0:06:17 Victoria] So I see the Latin X as a descendant, a direct descendant of um, the body qua identity. You know, the young Lords, for example, and the Chicano identity more so than, say, Hispanic or Latino. Because if we remember back to the 19 sixties, Chicano and body qua were politicised identities. It wasn’t just a descriptor of, um, I’m of Mexican American descent or I’m of Puerto Rican descent. It’s I am a Mexican American descent, and I am pushing against the political status quo so the Latin X identity has that same political component. But I would say the one difference of the Chicano in the body qua is it’s a little bit more expansive and I think it seeks to encompass both types of or Dodges both but multiple types of Latino subgroup identities be its Central American or South American, Mexican, Cuban, Dominican. So I think that’s the difference, but also the similarity from that 19 sixties generation.

[0:07:24 Peniel] So it’s a continuation of that politicisation of identity? Absolutely. Um, elections. When we think about the Latino or Latin X vote, Um, I want to ask you about 2020 but also 2016 and 2018 in the sense of, um, what is the power of the Latin X vote? Uhm, why didn’t it seem that they came out in robust enough numbers? Only Think about 2016. Did we see an uptick in 2018? That gives us hope? Um, uh, immigration is such a Web wedge issue, but this president has views specific anti immigration and anti Latin X rhetoric that has really satisfied his base. And in a way, I think, you know, Latinos and Latin X populations are one of the key populations in our democracy who are really being utilized, um, to foam, foment all kinds of outrage. Politics, right? And we need citizenship. We need immigration reform all these different things. So what role Yet we don’t see the Latin X vote as robust as we might like, and we’re talking about citizens we’re not even talking about. People are undocumented. We’re talking about in the state of Texas. We’ve got many who are unregistered and just nationally, who are American citizens who are not registered to vote

[0:08:49 Victoria] I e. Sometimes I just I’m speechless when I start to think about it. But I think it’s important, too, to remember how President Trump launched his campaign. You know, it’s seared in my memory how he he came down the escalators of Trump Tower and essentially equated Mexicans with rapists. And that has been a consistent theme throughout the mistake. That many Latinos that that some of us in the in the political commentary circles and I think the Democratic Party made is that they thought that was going to be enough, a dislike of trump and anger toward this very ugly rhetoric. But it wasn’t enough. In 2016 we did not see that let you know, wave materialized like we expected it to, which is the bad news. But the good news is that in 2018 we saw Latino and Latin acts, mobilization from the ground up. Focus on giving Latin X something to push for in something to believe in Not too something to vote against. Because what we saw in 2016 is that isn’t enough. Hate by itself is not going to get you to the polls. You need to have some hope you need toe toe. Want to change the system? You want to see minimum wage go up. You want to see Ah, Medicaid for all You want to see all these different things. I think in 2018 we did see a spike in the Latino vote. Go up. Um, we also saw in related Lee a spike in the youth vote. And when we’re talking about the youth vote, we’re pretty much talking about the Latino vote because Latinos are disproportionately a young population. Over 1/3 of our 18 to 29 year olds are of Latino descent. So in 18 we saw that, um but I think in going to 2020 a very big mistake is to assume Okay, they came out once, you know, it’s it’s going to keep going, young folks, minority folks can easily feel disengaged. You know, it’s a very frustrating context that they’re living in right now. And so

[0:10:59 Peniel] why do they feel so disengaged? Especially when we hear all the predictions that we’re gonna be a brown country, meaning blacks and Latinos and non whites, they’re going to be the majority. But the biggest part of that nonwhite majority are gonna be Latin X, have citizens. And again, it’s very important to say we’re talking about citizens. So for a second, let’s leave aside undocumented, which we are going to get to. But citizens, just these Air Americans, I know that they are also proudly Mexican and Central American, Puerto Rican. But they’re Americans. Why aren’t they exercising their power of citizenship?

[0:11:38 Victoria] So regrettably, it’s the same story for, um, black, white and brown, so poor folks don’t vote. It’s someone of these facets of you know, you don’t have as much stake in and things if you’re a renter if you’re unemployed, if you have lower levels of education, so it’s just a matter of where you are in society. So that’s why it’s so important tohave mobilization as a subsidy. Because if your lower on these different items you need to be pushed to see. You know what? You may not own a home. You may not be paying a mortgage here, but you’re invested in this community. So I think that is what we saw in 18. And it just needs to be ramped up for 2020 and and we’re just talking about the demographic growth by 2030 here in Texas, Latinos will be a majority of the population. This is just Texas right, and we’re already majority minority state. But this is a trend that we’re going to see across the country. And and this is why it is so important to start the habit now of becoming politically involved. Because once we do have that might, in terms of numbers, we need to match it with the political clout that we see demographically.

[0:12:57 Peniel] My next question is really about, um, achieving, ah, broader based democracy. And you know, how can we achieve a democracy where when we think about something like immigration, immigration is not used as a wedge issue, and really, immigration is seen especially, um, Latin X immigration to the United States as something that’s hugely positive, economically and culturally. and socially and politically. So, um, immigrants are not commit er’s of crime. They’re not people who somehow disrupt in a negative way, our democracy. But they really enhance our productivity. They enhance our culture both politically. But also we think about, ah, food when we think about music, when we think about the society and we owe so much to me, all immigration. But especially when we think about Latin X immigration, we would not be the United States of America that we are now without all of these people who are coming from Mexico. Were coming from Central America were coming from Latin America. We just would be a different country and a poorer country. How can we transform both that dialogue? That narrative that’s anti immigration, but also our institutions to reflect that reality.

[0:14:15 Victoria] We are a nation of immigrants, you know? I, um, and the descendant of Mexicans on my mother’s side and then Italian and Jewish folks on my dad’s side. So I have the Ellis Island. You know, I’m outside 100 years ago and then the recent immigrants from the border of 20 years ago, so I mean, we are a nation of immigrants. You’re gonna be hard pressed to find someone who says they’re not aside from Native Americans, for better, for worse. This is nothing new. It comes in waves. So one of the courses I teach is an immigration and U S immigration and and I go back to the 17 hundreds toe understand how what we’re seeing today is a pattern. We have these restrictionists and expansionist waves, and right now we’re in this restrictionist wave, much like in the early 19 twenties, when the quota laws were put into effect. But in terms of how do we get past them? I think in this particular moment that were living there are three things and I think a lot about this. How do we get past this immigration wedge issue? And these three things need to happen simultaneously. First of all, you have to humanize. It’s not just the dirty immigrant, the criminal immigrant, the bad immigrant. This is a person. This is a person who has loved ones who has dreams, who has aspirations just like you do Show the faces, tell the stories. You know, I think within the mix of never negative rhetoric when we saw the height of the family separation, and we would hear those leaked audiotapes and we would see the video, even your you’re pretty hard core immigration restrictionists. They were taken aback and we saw the reversal of family separation. We sell a long ways to go. But I think even though the crisis point of family separation, his his past, we need to keep humanizing the people who are at our borders. And I think, Ah, lot of media outlets have been tremendous work in that box. For example, um, but humanize, humanize, humanize the second show the numbers. So for the people who you may not be able to get in terms of the empathy quotient, show them in black and white the benefit of having immigrants in this country. It is a net boon for our economy. Ah, having our DACA recipients in this country. And I’m quoting numbers not from some left leaning think tank

[0:16:46 Peniel] on Dhaka’s deferred arrival.

[0:16:48 Victoria] Yes, deferred action for childhood arrivals. So those individuals who were brought without legal status but were brought his Children were able to apply for a deferment of deportation. The Cato Institute, libertarian right leaning think tank, did a study, and they showed that 350 billion would be lost if we set the DACA kids back. And in tax revenue alone, we’re talking about 90 billion. So for the folks ago Oh, the immigrants, you know, they drain our economy. No, they don’t. They make us better and stronger. And I would, um you know, I would suggest to your listeners to check out sites like New American Economy. It’s, ah, a site that does really need state and local level work that maps out the economic impact of immigrant communities across the United States and shows the positive net economic impact that they have so numbers, empathy, and the last one which is probably the hardest one, is we need to disentangle immigration from drugs. So, yes, drugs come across our border and immigrants come across our border. But they’re not. They’re not the same thing. These air two separate entities, sometimes the same bad people who traffic who do human trafficking and do drug trafficking, are the same criminal entities. But the immigrant himself or herself is not a a drug runner. As I think a lot of the popular rhetoric would like to make you believe so at every chance I get, I disentangle it. Try to disentangle. You know, building a border is not going to stop drugs because you see that rhetoric starts, say, Ah, border wall is going to keep the immigrants in the drugs out. No, Actually, it’s not. And also, let’s separate it, separate out the two and think about different strategies for drug interdiction. And namely, how do we prevent folks from getting addicted to drugs here in the United States? Why don’t we talk about what the pull factors are and separate up that from immigration? But again, um, probably the hardest of the three. So I think for the short term, it’s humanizing and keep showing the economic numbers

[0:19:06 Peniel] when this, this really leads me to my next question because I think race and the color of immigrants play such a big role because we also have West African immigrants. But among the Latin X population, we have some who could pass for black um who, whether they’re from Cuba, whether from Nicaragua, whether they’re from Mexico, who are absolutely Mexican. But they are darker skinned or brown skin. We have some who could pass for White, who are absolutely Latin X, speak Spanish. Multiple generations love and are proud of that culture. But for all intents and purposes, we in the United States would perceive them to be white. Um, what about that? That tension? Because in a live ways, the question I have is about sort of black and Latin X alliances, and

[0:19:56 Victoria] we’ve seen these

[0:19:57 Peniel] political alliances historically. You know. Martin of the King Junior’s Poor People’s Campaign, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee aligned itself with Cesar Chavez and an agricultural workers in the 19 sixties we’ve seen in cities like Houston at times black, brown. We’ve seen Chicanos and Black Panthers. We’ve seen this, the young lords in Chicago. But then

[0:20:20 Victoria] we’ve also

[0:20:20 Peniel] seen tensions where instead of that black and Latin X population getting together, there’s a lot of recrimination, you know, recriminations. Where Latin X folks say, Well, the blacks don’t want toe, um, create more room a top in terms of elected officials and and things that they have and and black folks saying, Well, these folks are Racists, anti black, racist against us, and we’ve seen tensions in Los Angeles. We’ve seen we’ve seen these tensions So what? What about the prospects of a really more formal and formidable alliance? Because it seems that those two groups got together, especially with the demographic changes that are happening. The country could be utterly transformed. And so so many of those constituents are people who are poor and are living in segregated neighborhoods who don’t have mental health care. Don’t have who don’t have all these different things that really comprise citizenship,

[0:21:12 Victoria] right? And, um, interestingly enough, the fastest growing with, you know, population is in the South, so you’re traditionally, you know, black area, your Atlanta Georgia’s your North Carolina’s. This is where you’re seeing the Latino populations. So the potential for um, political alliance is there. It’s it’s It’s ripe, you know, And and having been a student of coalitional politics, you you see the good, the bad and the ugly. That being said, I’m cautiously optimistic. Ah, more than anything because of the new generation, the new generation of both let necks and in black youth that have been living in more integrated societies where you know we’re not in a racial or ethnic paradise, but a lot of the structures that kept us apart um both physically, institutionally and also identity wise have been decreasing. So we started off talking about the umbrella term of Latin X that it’s a little bit broader, so it allows for saying, Okay, you maybe a little darker than I am, but we’re still part of this Latin X. Ah, in terms of social spaces, people are going to school together. They’re interacting more. So I think just that interaction physically and also in terms of identity, I think is going to allow for more of an alliance. That being said, I think both parts like in a relationship, right, you need to understand each other. So So the Latin next community just can’t be sympathetic to black lives matter like, Hey, I got you. I feel you. I’m right there with you. But there needs to be an understanding of the policy issue. There used to be a little bit of history work done here and on the side of black youth. And, you know, black folks is not just saying I’m there for the immigrant rights I get you, but understanding the specifics in the trials and tribulations of these immigrant populations. So I think that in order for this relationship that is really on the cusp of something very beautiful. It has to be taken to a deeper level of understanding. Not just I got you. Yeah, we’re both Democrats or we’re both progressives. But, um, both sides need to do their homework and put in the work to make the relationship work

[0:23:36 Peniel] in Bill, United States of Afro Latino America. That’s what it’s becoming anyway. But I think the black lives matter agenda does exactly what you’re talking about. It talks about. And these were black activists in the context of Ferguson and these police shootings against black bodies really talk about immigration and talked about both Latin X immigration and to stand in solidarity but really dissecting those issues very, very clearly and how that’s connected to not just West African immigration but citizenship for all. So really, the fight for DACA the fight for DAPA is a fight for citizenship for everyone, and it should be at the forefront of any progressive social human. Um, we’re here at University of Texas, Austin, I want to ask you a question about our campus. Um how do you think we’re doing? You know, we’ve had, um and I’ve talked Teoh, my Latin ex students, faculty, staff. We talk about the possibly of numbers here. You know our numbers. This is a premier university. Our numbers with its students, whether it’s faculty, whether it’s administrators, whether it’s staff are not reflective of the Latin X population, both in this city and the state of Texas. Um, what are we doing? Well, what can we do? Better? We do have Mexican American studies here. You’re an affiliate faculty, Um, and and they’re in a building that’s right there with African and an African diaspora studies. So there are inroads and not every university has Mexican American studies as a department, Um, a cultural center, thes different things. What are we doing? Right, But what should we be doing as we move forward? Right here. University of Texas.

[0:25:13 Victoria] Right. That this is an excellent question. Uh, so I think we need to take stock of where we are. Um, So this year, the Center for Mexican American studies is going to be turning, I think 40. So the University of Texas, from the outgrowth of the civil rights movement, was receptive to the movement of Chicano activists you know at the time that that was the word. It was Chicano Mexican Americans here in Texas to stake a claim here on this campus that we are a presence and we need to have a space. And so the university, you know, forward thinking for its time did establish that center fast forward, about 35 40 years. They then established the Mexican American and Latino Studies Center. So here, where it’s not only a community center, which was what the center for Mexican American studies is, but also to have that curriculum to enhance the knowledge of the Mexican American and Latino experience. So I think that having the community component together with the curricular one is very important where I think we need to grow as an institution, and I put myself in this need to grow a swell is better. Understand what we need in terms of let next resource is, I am not as young as I used to be. And so, um, I have trouble understanding what the particulars of the Latin X identity are. Um, I was just in D. C with some folks from a very well known Latino organizations from across the country and world, kind of in our in our forties fifties, and and we’re talking about how we, ourselves, who are Latino born and raised, have trouble understanding what those needs are and what we can do to help these generations below. If so, I think that the University of Texas, along with other Latino serving organizations, need to take stock and not just say okay, well, we knew what we had to do with the Chicanos and the for the birdie quests and for the Hispanics. This is what we’re going to do for you. We need to listen to what these students of ours air telling us, um, rather than just be professors and teach them or be administrators and create programs. But I think we’re at a moment where there there is a shift. We are We’re no longer in the moment of just a Hispanic and the left, you know, But we’re in a new, politicized moment, and we we need to be supportive of those students and provide them. The resource is curricular and institutional for them to thrive.

[0:27:50 Peniel] And do you think we need to accept more students, recruit more fact feeling remorse, more staff that goes

[0:27:57 Victoria] without saying

[0:27:58 Peniel] Okay, so So so. Part of it is like the proof will be in the numbers are actions. How many? What kind of Latin X thriving, robust presence we have on campus. And I would probably say the largest city of Austin, because we need Latin X entrepreneurs. We need Latin ex leaders in the city of us, and we have that. But we don’t have enough when we think about representation here,

[0:28:22 Victoria] you know? And the thing is that, um if you build it, they will come. So if we listen to the needs of these students and we really build from the ground up than more students will come, more students will want to apply. Faculty of color will want to come. Um, entrepreneurs in the Austin area will want to come, So I think it’s it’s something that has to be obviously from the top down. They have the strategic plan and whatnot, but also from the bottom up. Because if we’re providing resource is they aren’t necessarily what the students and the faculty need. Then that disconnect is going to prevent the growth of the Latino and Latin X community here on campus.

[0:29:05 Peniel] You know, my my final question is really about the future. And when I think about Latin X politics, and right now we’re heading towards a Democratic primary where we have Julian Castro, former mayor of San Antonio. Ah, former HUD secretary is running for president, and if he ran for president, he’s 44 45. If he if he won the presidency, that would be a game changer. I think about what happened with Barack Obama in 2008 and how when Obama was inaugurated, and even when he won and basked in the victory in Grant Park, it really was transformative. When we think about race relations, um, my first, the first part of this question, what would it mean? Especially post trump toe? Have the first Latin ex president in somebody like Julian Castro on? Do you think it’s possible? Do you think it’s possible foot toe have in 2021 inaugurated January 20th for the first time in American history, a Latino Latin next president?

[0:30:07 Victoria] I do. And and maybe I’m being overly optimistic. I have been accused of that, but, uh, I think it is possible for a couple of reasons. I think, Ah, the outlook of our of our electorate. We have an increasingly diverse electorate, you know. Yes, there is a very strong right leaning electorate that may not be accepting of a Julian Castro or Kamala Harris. But there is a growing electorate that is, as we saw in 2018. The second piece of it is there’s so many people running that it’s gonna be really hard to say. OK, yeah, this person’s got it in the bag. The other part, which coincides with minority status, is youth, and we’re seeing, Ah, hunger, Um, not just among minority populations, but I think the general American population to not go with just the the experience in the age and the wisdom that comes with age but actually invigorate our political system with a little bit of youth. And we’re seeing that our candidates of color are disproportionately young. So, um, you know, I think the odds are tough for anyone A to this stage of the game. But do I think that a who land Castro as president is, um is a potential reality? I do

[0:31:28 Peniel] only thing about Latin X populations and leadership Where do you see it going? You just said 2030 you know, that’s it. That’s a big but the power connected to that. That demographic explosion isn’t necessarily aligned right now. We think about the next 10 15 years. Where do you see it? In terms of Latin X riel, leadership, political, but also economic leadership and also really moral leadership. I think about Cesar Chavez, and I think about Dolores Huerta was gonna be here. Um, where do we think? You know, Latin X activists have given us moral leadership, um, for centuries in this country which a lot of times get gets overlooked. But where do you see us going? Especially now with the new. This younger insurgent group was really thinking about identity. Even let Latino and Latina identity Latin excited in intersectional ways within the Latin American community, which is dizzying, which is dizzying but really at propose, I think.

[0:32:29 Victoria] And it really, um it widens the landscape of who can get involved at the same time. But if I had to pick one poster child of what you know, kind of the the next generation of the Latin X leadership, looks like I would say when When you see those DACA students, um, the Dreamers, as we call them out, protesting in front of the White House or taking to the streets, that’s that’s the leadership thes are these? I’m not going to say kids, but the’s youth that are fearless, you know, they are undocumented. So technically, especially under the current administration, they could be deported. But they are out there making their voices heard there on, you know, the the radio on TV, protesting, saying, I am here and I am pushing form or inclusive America. I am. I am pushing for the democratic ideals of this country, which is my country. So I that’s who I see in terms of the Latin X identity, you know, there are not in the necessarily the load is worth us who were out there in the fields. But I think they’re out there in the streets protesting, and our students who are in our classrooms, I would like to think is well, Pernille, that, um, they’re they’re hungry and the, um they’re not satisfied with the answers that they’re getting. And so I think that disruption is coming from this Latin next generation

[0:33:54 Peniel] And that brings us all back to what Dr King talked about in terms of creating this beloved community. Right? And we we we should think of Latin X activists and young people and communities is really at the center as well of creating that beloved community.

[0:34:09 Victoria] Absolutely they am. The notion of boundaries is is minimal for them. They see, um, they see Coalition is a natural fit, whereas before, you know, groups might be a little bit more skeptical, and you have to take the political calculus. But here I just I see a different world view when it comes to politics and Latin X youth.

[0:34:32 Peniel] Well, thank you for joining us. Professor Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, Um, director of civic engagement and lecturer at the LBJ School of Public Affairs and affiliate Faculty in Mexican American studies. Thank you so much for being here.

[0:34:47 Victoria] This was so much fun. Thank you.

[0:34:50 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.