Ep. 10 – Black Men in Higher Education and Student Athletes’ Exploitation and Achievement: A Conversation with Dr. Brandon Jones

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to race and democracy. A podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Okay, welcome to race in democracy. Today we have Dr Brandon Jones, who is associate director for student learning and development at University of Texas at Austin and who’s a lot of different things. The black scholar. Ah, former student athlete, Um, and somebody who’s really interested in black male achievement at in higher education institutions. My first question for you, Dr Jones, is you know, uh, what is your role here at the University of Texas in terms of trying to influence black student development and achievement here on campus?

[0:01:03 Brandon] Sure. So my role is associate director for student learning and development, and I work over in university housing and dining, and I know that that’s a unique, um, title for such office that has traditionally just focused on residents and programming. A zit relates to what students do who live with us on campus. But my role specifically, um, pretty much emphasizes the student learning that happens outside of classes. And so what I get to do as a result of that is having impact on almost 7500 students. Ah, year who come and live with us on campus and help create thes developmental learning opportunities that are central to the students growth and development in a car on a college campus. And, you know, I think

[0:01:46 Peniel] that’s great. And I think that when we think about college campus, especially a predominantly white institution like U T. I want you to talk about how how is it different being a black student coming to this is a prestigious university. This is a top of the line top tier research, one university with all the athletics and sports and campus environment. What? What is it like to be a black student on this campus?

[0:02:11 Brandon] Sure. So at schools like the University of Texas, large, predominantly white institutions, particularly in the South, um, it could be overwhelming school like you tea with over 50,000 students, depending on the high school you come from, depending on your socioeconomic status or the identities that you bring that you bring. Um, that experience can be from exciting and range all the way toe overwhelming to the point where some students may underperform as a result of that. And so that’s why It’s important that our institutions work to understand the experiences of students of color, particularly black students on college campuses, and make sure that those resource is and structures are in place so that they can be successful when they get here because those things exist. And when you think

[0:02:55 Peniel] about those structures that can help lead to success, what are some of those things? Is it is it connected to curriculum? Is it is it social and cultural development? Is that courageous conversations? What are some of the things that you try toe really institutionalized on practice to get black students sure access? Yeah,

[0:03:16 Brandon] sure. I think it’s a combination of all of those things and then some because we’re not monolithic. You know, everybody’s experience is different, so one of things that we try to make sure that we do is meet the students where they are. What worked for when I came to college in 2002 at Abilene Christian University is gonna look a lot different 17 years later at the University of Texas, and so one of things that we’re doing is trying to meet our students where they are. You know, students will tell you that. You know I won’t check email, but anything that pops up in the group me I’ll show up to that because you reached me where I am. I’ve worked at college campuses where the students will tell us that orientation. Yeah, you know, Simeon email. But then they get there and they’re like, Oh, just text me. I have students that I e mailed and then they’ve missed meetings and I said, I’m a text and they’re at my door, and I’m like, Wow, this you have to meet them where they earned. So some of those structures are programs and activities that facilitate that learning, but also meet the developmental needs of those students. And to do that, you have to understand who your students are, knowing their backgrounds and where they come from and really being very strategic about what you’re putting in front of them and when you put it in

[0:04:23 Peniel] front of them. Well, that’s great. Segway for my next question, cause you talked about background and knowing your students background. Um, can you Can you tell us about your background? And you talked about Abilene Christian University and you’ve done this wonderful Ted X talk where you talk about, um, really being Ah ah, son of an athlete. Somebody who was really interested in sports, especially football. Um, sort of had a star cross relationship with that, but really came on the other side of that very intensely concerned with, um, black male athletes on college campuses. Certain biases, biases against them performing well and against us, seeing them as holistic human beings of student athletes. And not as just some kind of fetishized, Ah, racially marginalized creature who was just there to perform for these predominately white audiences and her sisters, right?

[0:05:18 Brandon] Yes, On my background, I’m a native Texan. I grew up in a little town called Tyler, Texas, and people here at the university. I know all about Tyler, Texas Earl Campbell from the exact same rural part of Tyler, Texas, where he grew up. I grew up being at church with his family every Sunday, so I know the entire Campbell family. Aaron Ross, who played here. Tim Crowder, Matt Milton. Ah, a lot of players cut came through Tyler, Texas, And so UT has always been close in our family, especially in our neighborhood and high school And so I played at John Tyler. Same high school is a little Campbell on a couple of those people that just mentioned, um, on a good day, I was a second stringer, but I feel like my athletic experience was definitely unique in that I think my Cup, my coach who’s now being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Alan Wilson was definitely somebody who was patient with me, and I learned a lot of good lessons through football, so I’ve always spoken well of that sport. But I knew my time was limited just because of the kind of offense he ran. It was definitely a power system, and I was £165 at best at that time. And then I ended. What position did you play? I played wide receiver, but in that offense, it’s more of a tight end in that house and again looking get me. There’s no way I would ever be ableto successfully play that position and so um when when my senior year was up, we didn’t make the playoffs. I reached out to a number of schools and my coach played at Abilene. Christian eyes on the hall of fame there. And so I ended up. I reached out to Graham Lynn and I reached out to Southern Arkansas and I reached out to Abilene. Christian and Gramling was like, Yeah, you could walk on And then after a couple of years, you may get a scholarship, who knows? But I ended up going to a C you and took a walk on, offered their, um, I saw what it was like for the guys that I saw on TV, you know, in previous years, I’m like, Man, these guys are state finalist. These guys were the best receivers in the state, and they’re not playing this first year, and I saw how they were getting treated. And here I wasn’t walk on about to be somebody’s tackling dummy for another couple of years as a red shirt. And so I decided that experience wasn’t for me, and but I kept up with the game. I love the game of football. Most of my friends played football and basketball, but I also remember the experience of growing up in these Texas and watching guys go away and then come back at the end of a semester or at the end of a season and hearing the rhetoric around it. Ah, that always stood out to me. And that’s what I focused on in my Ted. Talk was, You know, sometimes it’s more than what we think that happened while player may come home. Or, you know, the more I studied this doing my dissertation, there’s a lot more nuances that we have to take into consideration. And when you say

[0:07:59 Peniel] when you say the rhetoric about players who just came and left is that negative rhetoric saying somehow they usually succeed, they failures.

[0:08:06 Brandon] A lot of it was negative because in my Ted talk, I talked about how growing up in East Texas there would be guys that would go away for a semester and then at Christmas, their home, and they’re still there a couple of months later, and my father worked at Train a za production clerk, and that was one of the bigger jobs in East Texas. And so my dad said, Hey, such a such that played on the team last year, he working in my unit right now. Let’s go. You know what’s going on with that? And so that would be a question or then oh, I heard he got somebody pregnant and need to come home and work, or I heard he couldn’t cut it as a student. And so they dropped him and let him go. And so it was mostly negative, and I just I never really bought into that mostly negative, um, narrative that kept getting perpetuated. And so it was. Listen until years later, that I started exploring the topic, that I really became fascinated in what I was finding, but more importantly, telling a different story from from an anti deficit framework, because a lot of what’s out there was so negative, and it was about, ah, previous athletes experiences. Crystal Beeman had a study out calling. It was called used goods, and a lot of the players felt like they were thrown away when the season was done. And I didn’t like that, and I wanted to see if there was something that was going right, and if so, what was it and what can we do to replicate it? Well, I

[0:09:22 Peniel] like that you’re talking about used goods and really the exploitation of blackmail Adam Elite, specifically thinking in a larger context about Colin Kaepernick and the NFL. There just was a settlement there. Um, I want us to talk about the exploitation of black male athletes. But then also, really the exploitation and the disappearance of black males on predominately white, especially prestigious campuses, Sure. And really especially black American male. So not even those who might be black globally in our immigrants from the Caribbean or from West Africa. Sure, but really, black Americans have been here for generations. And their lessening, Um um, appearance at universities like you, Teacher. So one, you know, you talked about in your Ted talk, Um, the stereotypes in the way in which black athletes often are really humiliated and shamed and embarrassed. And, um, there’s a whole culture that tries to tell them that they’re not intellectuals, that they are not readers. They’re not literate. And really, when we think about somebody who’s taught at these universities for over two decades, there are plenty of students of all racial backgrounds who come in un prepared for college. Right? That’s just a product of the public school system, right where I’ve met white students who can’t read and write at the level that they are supposed to. I’ve met Latino black students. It’s a universal problem, but somehow we really focus on, especially when black males right, um, are under prepared. All right, so let’s talk about why is that and what are some of the ways we can? We can both for athletes, but really, for all black male students,

[0:11:09 Brandon] I think you want a second do food, talked about that, and to be popular smart, you know, when you go back and think about in the nineties, um, you know what? I was born in the eighties and then and no grew up during the early hip hop era and all those different things. And I remember being in school with the read to achieve posters and the milk mustache commercials and all of that stuff, and you saw that stuff plastered all around the school. But rarely, if every did you see ah, college professor, that was a black man. Or rarely, if ever Did you see on those career days that you see black men coming in in various professions, especially in higher education? In those read to achieve posters, I never saw a black doctor. I never saw Ah Serena Williams or anything like that. And so when you create environments like that specifically in the inner cities and in the underserved rural schools, um, that does something psychologically when you don’t see anything or anyone that looks like you. I somehow made it all the way through. Ah, Doctor it and never had a black man as an instructor. And that always baffled me. And to this day, I can send you toe Wonder how that happened. And I look at, you know, the school. I went to the and I went to a school where, you know, the A. I had a P that I be tracked. You had the minimum, then you had the recommended and then you had the distinguished. You have three different academic tracks here in the state of Texas, and I know a lot of people that took that minimum. And in that minimum, that’s a totally different curriculum compared to what I was getting in the A. P and I be track, which prepared me to write college level papers and to stand in front of people and be comfortable filling out college and admissions essay. So that was one of those fundamental struggles. And in those classes there weren’t a lot of athletes because that minimum and that recommended plan made it easier to play a sport versus being on the distinguished track, I would argue, would have Dunmore College Prep, But ah, lot of us weren’t told that that was a good option for us. And you know,

[0:13:06 Peniel] this idea of role models? That was another question I had for you, especially when it comes to now your transition from being a student athlete from being a graduate student to being really a scholar. Administrator. Um, why were there so few? Um, black male role models, um, in higher education, especially predominantly white institutions?

[0:13:27 Brandon] Sure, I think that their arm or black male role models in higher education than we think the problem is many of them aren’t as visible as, ah doctor more or someone such as yourself on. And I think that we don’t we don’t We don’t put ourselves out there enough because I would argue there are quite a few, you know, like Dr Sharon Harper over at USC. Um, I think that there are others Chance Lewis. Geez, there’s a lot of people, especially women of color as well Actor that are doing great work. But the problem is, I think, that we get relegated to certain roles. You know, we every school doesn’t have a rich Reddick. You know, every school doesn’t have a doctor, Eric Tango, others on campus. And so ah, lot of us get relegated to just working in multicultural affairs or get put in just serving the black students and not being released to teach classes like Dr Morris Race in the age of Trump or the black power movement. And so I think that it’s a lack of visibility and a lot of the times. What some institutions do is we get brought out when they’re trying to recruit more black students or when they’re trying toe land, this talented black faculty member, they bring us out. But in some cases, ah, lot of institutions just aren’t promoting the work that these people are doing. And so that’s why it may appear that there aren’t many of us. But it’s just that we don’t get that visibility that a lot of our white colleagues get a swell.

[0:14:50 Peniel] Now when you think about visibility on this campus, what is your experience been in terms of both visibility, but also just campus climate, uh, for for you as a professional here, but also in your interactions with graduate students. Undergraduates to

[0:15:06 Brandon] sure. I think that here, um, by far, um, scholars of color are definitely visible. You know, I run into Dr Reddick all the time on campus. I listened to him on one of your previous podcast recordings. Ah, he was one of the reasons I wanted to come here because they get in 2009. I didn’t get into the PhD program because I wanted to study under Dr Reddick. Um, so for me, I think that our scholars of color indefinitely more visible here. I hear students talking about Dr Morris class all the time. I was in Round Rock in a check out lane at H E B and two of the cashiers. We’re talking about something that they learned in Dr Morris Glass the other day. And I’m like, I’m all the way in round rock, and this is happening. And so when I’m on campus and I’m active in the Black Faculty Staff Association and I get to see my colleagues, I would argue that we’re a lot more visible, but we could do better in terms of coming together, because what? Because what I love about BF say here is that we’re excited when we get together, but it’s like a family reunion, and I’m like our buildings aren’t that far, but we don’t get a chance to come together enough and welcome students in like we did today. We welcome in the Onyx, the new Onyx Honor Society, to our meeting today and brought those students, and we need to do more of that. So in my experience, has been pretty good here in terms of having that visibility and being able to interact with the doctor more or a doctor Peniel, Joseph or Rich Reddick and others on campus. I really enjoyed that, but we could definitely do. Ah, a better job of making sure that all of our scholars of color and all of our faculty and staff of color who are doing great work on this campus, uh, get recognized and be invisible as well.

[0:16:43 Peniel] Now, I know students often complain of this. What do you think in terms of as faculty staff, this idea of being overburdened? Um ah by not just symbolic representation but really actual work. You know, our black students complained that in classes they’re forced to become really sometimes, er, Satz, you know, cultural studies professors and people who are speaking up speaking out who have toe What’s it like to be black? Yeah, could provide a narrative, but But then are our faculty and staff can can often privately complain that they are forced. And I know it’s faculty for now, over 20 years to be counselors to, you know, not just write recommendations and not just be mentor, but but be even more than that, and do that in multiple ways across campus in ways that a lot of times you’re not necessarily getting institutional support for or even institutional recognition. But that burden falls on all your black faculty and staff, and it can lead to burnout as as well. And then sometimes it can lead toe ah blocking of professional success because when you think about research one universities, what they value above all else is usually research and books and publications or people who get huge grants and resource is so what do you what do you think we can do about that?

[0:18:07 Brandon] Yeah. Um, well, one, we need to make sure we’re paying people for the work that they’re doing. Because a lot of the times what happens is is that we’ve set people up. We said individuals of color up Ah, for failure because we’re giving them a job to be the the person who helps make sure that our black students are successful. You know, I’ve worked at several institutions that have put in, you know, a number of initiatives. But at the end of the day, what it boils down to is can we support the people currently doing the work with the resource is that they need Because just because you’re a professor of literature or whatever the case may be, doesn’t mean that that’s the only thing you’re doing. In some cases, you are serving as the only voice at the table that speaks up for this group of students because you understand their experience. In some cases, some people are staying here, lay in supporting our students, it programs, you know, Dr Reddick Services, one of our faculty mentors in university housing and dining, and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen him in a residence hall at a program or reaching out to see if there’s ways that he could support our students, and he’s got two kids of his own. And so sometimes people are wearing more than one hat. Um, because if they don’t who will and then in other cases, some people that just understaffed, underserved or under resourced and can’t ah, meet that demand? And so we come and we showed her up and we make sure that the demand is met. And so I think that one thing we can do to solve that issue is let’s pay people for the work that they’re doing. And if we’re noticing that someone is having a shoulder load by themselves outside of the scope of their job description, then let’s try to find ways to make sure that that person either gets the support or the compensation and resources they need to fulfill that task. Because otherwise that’s a group of students that will suffer if that person gets burnt out of that person’s gone sick that day and we have a student in crisis.

[0:20:00 Peniel] All right, I’ve got two final questions won’t want one is when you think about black male students and obviously you you were one. Why in the post civil rights era and we’re seeing the data on this, that black male students, whether we’re talking about, um, elementary school, whether we’re talking about high school where they were talking about university and beyond, um, don’t perform as well as as their black female counterparts. And why are they not succeeding? Um, post civil rights in a way that we might have imagined they would have 50 years ago after the passage of the Voting Rights Act Civil Rights Act? You know, it seems like our educational systems, you know, suspend black boys at higher rates than anybody else, and they expel black boys at higher rates. Um, and again, this is juxtaposed against the really real love and adoration for black male athletes. Are there wonderful black female athletes? But when you think about financial drivers and producers of just wealth, yeah, especially are black athletes and football and then basketball. They produce billions of dollars for the N C. Double A. And for others Oh, yeah, Nike and sports a pair. So

[0:21:26 Brandon] why that that juxtaposition? So you gotta think about You got to go back to what? Crystal, How Crystal Beeman framed that socialization narrative. Black boys are socialized to play sports a lot a lot earlier than our black girls. You know, Johnny runs really fast at age four. So now all of a sudden we’re thinking, man, we got to sign him up for football and to the detriment of academic achievement. And then when you look at the academic curriculum, what is that K 12 curriculum? And how does it speak to, ah, black boy from inner city Chicago? How does this curriculum speak to, um, a kid in rural East Texas? You know what? What is this curriculum saying? And a lot of the times are black boys don’t see themselves in the curriculum, and I would argue the same thing for our black women. But also, um, sports is more emphasized, especially in the state of Texas. You know, I’m from a state in a town where Friday Nights, man delight everything you’re shutting down. We’re following our high school teams, and we’re going wherever they’re going. I’ve lived in 23 other states, and nowhere I’ve ever lived does this other than Texas on Friday night in Tennessee. Stuff still open the football. It’s it’s big, but it’s not his biggest here. I mean, you can buy your high school teams jersey in Walmart so that if you grow up seeing that and you’re seeing that guys are going off to college and the only kind of success stories you are seeing eyes, the basketball store of the football player used tend to think that that’s your only way out. And so, for black boys, I would argue that the options that get put out there have been limited. And that was one of the reasons why I chose the research that I I pursued because I know that there was more to it. You know, some of my participants wannabe wanted to be doctors, some of them wanted to be medical missionaries over in another country is not just being a rapper or an athlete, but again, the options that tend to get presented on Career day to our boys is limited. And if I’m not at school all the time because of suspensions or because we didn’t, we don’t understand the things that we understand today. About 80 HD or autism and kids on the autism spectrum and different things like that. Um, we just completely have misunderstood our black boys. And we’ve tried toe change that change them in so many ways. And so I would argue that those are some of the things that contribute to why we’re not seeing the success with black males in higher education or education in general, like we are with black women.

[0:23:55 Peniel] My final question is really you in terms of your background, Um, how how has being a former student athlete really impacted your career? Um, as a scholar, as an administrator, a za thought leader. Yeah. What’s been the impact?

[0:24:12 Brandon] Yes. So, most people who mean most athletes, you talk to me like he went no student athlete because because I could have shown after three days of being on campus. But, um, for me, those that’s where my friends were and my heart and my passion for the guys on the team has always remained. And so I remember what it’s like to watch them coming from practice into the cafeteria late at night to go eat, and then you have to go watch film and then have to go live weights and then people that matter because they fell asleep in class and it’s like he got up at 3 a.m. To go work out. Of course, he’s tired. He just got to practicing and showering and eating, but no one wants to take that into consideration. Um, and I, you know, just listening to the narratives and the conversations around their success. I was like, No, there’s more to it than this. And so how it’s impacted me is every school I worked that I’ve somehow have developed great relationships with student athletes, and I did a presentation at the Black Student Athletes Summit this year. When I talk about it, takes a village and for me, I really believe in that, especially as it relates to student athletes of color. It does take a village, and I know my role in the village, and if no one else is going to speak up is gonna I know I’m going to do it because I have understanding I have that capital within that group to speak up and say, Hey, I’ve noticed that, Ah, here’s how we’re treating these guys and I worked at a campus before where they were singing Happy Birthday to the star player on Monday. He threw the game losing interception on Saturday, and he had to come to class in a hoody and sit in the back and couldn’t talk to anybody because he’s getting death threats on Twitter that they’re still humans. And so, for me, how that’s impacted My work is I tend to take a very relational approach. So working with not just student athletes, but with students in general, I value people over processes. And so sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn’t. But that’s definitely impacted. How I go about doing what I do and, more importantly, how I go about engaging our students, our faculty and our staff

[0:26:14 Peniel] has the final word. Thank you so much. Dr Brandon Jones, associate director for student learning and development at UT, for this great conversation, really on student development and black men and boys and athletics and exploitation and achievement. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[0:37:21 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.