Ep. 16 – Racial Segregation of Educational Opportunities: A Conversation with Dr. Ted Gordon

[0:00:07 Peniel] Welcome to Race in Democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship. Welcome to race in democracy. Today we have a special guest, Dr Edmund T. Gordon, who is associate professor and the founding chair of the Department of African and African Diaspora Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, where he’s also the vice provost for diversity. Dr. Gordon Welcome.

[0:00:43 Ted] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[0:00:44 Peniel] I want to have a wide ranging conversation today because you have been at U T. For 32 years. Now you’re the founding chair and really the institution builder for the ads department, which is the Department of African and African Die Sports Studies, which offers PhDs, which offers masters, which offers undergraduate degrees, really one of the leading programs in the United States for black studies. But at the same time, you’ve also played a pivotal role in, um, the way in which we think about black studies in higher education but also racial equity in public education in the Austin Independent School District. So I want to really ask you about both of those things throughout the course of our conversation. Sounds good. Okay, So the first thing I want to ask you is that you served for four years on the school board in the A. I s t system just recently. And based on those experiences in terms of A I S. D and racial inequality, when it comes to school budgets, outcomes between black Latin ex students and white students Um, what are the real issues of access and equity for our black and students who are non white in the A I S D system?

[0:02:04 Ted] Well, there are a number of issues. I think the two most important ones that come to mind is one that, um well, how many years has been sent? So Brown versus Board of Education

[0:02:19 Peniel] since 1954.

[0:02:20 Ted] All right, that’s a good, long time. And yet the public education in the city of Austin, Texas, is still almost completely segregated. Eso that’s one thing.

[0:02:30 Peniel] And why is that in terms of when we think about Brown and Brown was the big decision we all talk about as scholars of civil rights and race and black studies. Why, you know, so many decades after that decision is segregation still here and right here in the city of Boston.

[0:02:49 Ted] Well, this is not just an issue here in Austin. It’s an issue all around the country. And the why is it has to do with how it is that school district’s reconstitute themselves. And actually ah, city populations reconstitute themselves after Brown versus Board of Education and the the halting efforts to actually engage in racial desegregation. So there’s there’s a number things. One is that in a city like Austin Ah, while there was racial desegregation mandated for the schools, there was never a really mandate. Ah, in relation to racially segregation and turns of residential patterns. So neighborhood and neighborhoods. And even more than that, um, there was never, I think even any thought about the kinds of ah segregation are based on economics. Um, basically on class status. And so Austin is one of the most economically segregated cities in the country at this point, and that is reflected in the schools. And when economic segregation is an issue, then racial segregation is going toe off. Also be an issue because, as we know, racial difference is a key driver of economic difference.

[0:04:12 Peniel] Now, when we think about a I S D. And we think about the city of Austin. We usually think of Austin as this progressive city. What is the a I s d not doing for students of color for students who are in segregated, economically disadvantaged communities, whether it’s in East Austin but just in the entire A I S d district

[0:04:32 Ted] in terms of segregation, um, as d not been able to come up with the mechanisms to convert a residential e segregated city into an educationally desegregated city, and it’s very difficult to do so very costly, but even more not politically, it’s almost impossible. In other words, you ah, once you tried Teoh engage in any kind of desegregation which takes ah, residential segregation and tries toe to modify that. Then you’re talking about things like bussing or you’re talking about alternatives, own ings which go against the previous patterns that exist. And that’s that’s politically very difficult to do.

[0:05:15 Peniel] And that’s what I was gonna ask you in terms of what are some solutions was certainly in the 19 seventies we had busing and busing was very controversial. We think about Boston, different crises. But busing was in New York. It was in Greensboro, North Carolina. It was in Atlanta was in California. It was in Austin. He was. It was everywhere. And and since busting, there hasn’t been really a way to have what the court used to call racial balancing a racially balanced school. What are some non busing options that we have?

[0:05:45 Ted] Well here in Austin, Texas, because of the racial geography the city? One way to approach it would be to draw your, uh, school zoning boundaries East west rather than North South. And what would that do? What that does is racial segregation historically in Austin. Actually, ever since the 1928 ordinance has been an issue of East West, um, segregation, in other words, or white folks living on the western side of town and black and then increasingly Latin. Next, folks living on the eastern side of town and historically zoning for schools has been configured north south, which them maintains the separation between the east and west. So one, uh, initial move, which could make things ah, at least somewhat different, would be to draw those lines east west, across what stabbed the dividing line was East Avenue. Ah, I 35 was placed over that. And so, too, to draw lines across I 35 rather than parallel it, I 35 would have some effect on it. That would be one way to do it.

[0:06:59 Peniel] So we’d have more racially integrated schools,

[0:07:01 Ted] have more racially and mawr economically integrated schools. If you do that,

[0:07:04 Peniel] how would we do that? Is that City Council? Is that the mayor? Is that

[0:07:06 Ted] slow Has to do with the school board? Uh, and also this Thea the administration. Right now, the boundary Committee, the main boundary committees air basically set by the school administration, not even by the board. So the board would have to intervene Teoh re do or re determine who actually makes those decisions and turns at least suggestions. And the administration would have to be, um, okay with that and then the administration would have to do the hard work to figure out exactly how that would work. Now, that wouldn’t That wouldn’t change everything, But it would be, ah, you know, start the other way to handle school segregation. And Austin is to think about, um, having a number of schools not be based on residents in turns intended attendance zones, but to be based on interests and choice. Ah, and there was some of that attempted Ah, 10 20 years ago. Ah, in Austin, you may have heard of the science Academy that was in the LBJ School in the liberal Arts Academy that was on the Johnston’s campus. Ah, those were attempts to take high schools, which were largely segregated black and brown. Ah, signage black and brown and put magnet schools in those schools as a part of those high school. But they become, in order to be able to to draw students from other parts of town to those schools. Unfortunately, through a number of different initiatives, the decision was made both to what first Balto move the liberal arts academy out of Johnston and move that to LBJ and then to change to put two high schools in the one building, which was LBJ, which is the regular school, and the Lhasa Ah, which was a magnet school. And they were separated into two schools, having two different principles basic creating a system of apartheid in the building.

[0:09:05 Peniel] Wow, Was there protest against that?

[0:09:08 Ted] Not really. At the time, I don’t think people really realized what was going on. And also there were some there. Waas. One of the problems that that separation of the schools was supposedly designed to deal with was a problem of the so called 10% rule. Right, which here in Texas, probably all your listeners are familiar with this. But, ah, the top 10% of the graduates the graduating class from every high school in the state have the right to go to one or the other of the two flagship institutions. Ah, of higher education, you tea and Texas A and M Ah, that’s now down to 6%. But that’s another story. Ah, the problem There was that the last of students, always the science Academy students who were in the same school with LBJ and the liberal arts students who were in the same in the Johnsons campus. We’re taking AP courses, which give you what five credits instead of four Foreign A and things like that on Also, they were, you know, higher achievement. Many of them are high achievers. And so, in terms of the 10% plan, the kids from the regular campus or who were in the in the neighborhood portion of the program. Ah, we’re not really represented. All in the top 10%. And so that was considered be unfair. So changes were made for that reason. But what we got was complete segregation.

[0:10:36 Peniel] Well, I want a shift, um, conversation a little bit to higher education.

[0:10:42 Ted] But before you do that, you know, let me say something else, you know? What I said was that segregation is one of the two biggest problems. But for me, the biggest problem is the achievement gap. Let’s talk about that is a racial and economic achievement gap in in Austin schools. Ah is particularly, um, acute in relationship to black students, which

[0:11:03 Peniel] driving this achievement gap

[0:11:05 Ted] Well, I say that black students aren’t getting the kind of education that they deserve in our schools. And the school district has not figured out how to adequately do deliver quality education to black students, such that you have a situation in which, on both reading and mass standardized test black students test something like 40% below Ah, white students.

[0:11:30 Peniel] Now, when you think about this achievement gap, is this based on poverty? Is it based on what’s happening in the home? Is it under resourced schools is that teachers who aren’t teaching black Children effectively um, what’s going on in terms of why the achievement gap,

[0:11:48 Ted] Just like elsewhere in the country? It’s a combination of those factors. It’s a It’s a complex situation. Um, which requires, um, I think the implicate implementation of, ah solutions with some finesse and and some sophistication. Um, it’s all those issues. Ah, I think that, um it is definitely the case that for many teachers, teaching black and brown kids is, um is harder than they find teaching, um, kids from other backgrounds. Ah, part that has to do with the fact that our teaching, um, staff or faculty in as D is predominantly white and and women. Which isn’t to say that white women can’t teach kids of color, but it does require learning some skills from intercultural skills and, ah, having some understandings that, you know, young people coming right out of an edge of school of education don’t necessarily have and that require time. Ah, and the interest to try to figure out how it is the best reach our students. Ah, varying lessons and making them culturally appropriate. Uh ah. Teaching basics. Um Ah, in terms of reading and all that are are things that are important for our kids. And ah, asd has not always been really good about about getting those teachers with those kinds of skills in the places principle leadership that can help teachers marshall those skills into the places where they’re they’re most needed. We know that black and brown kids can learn. We have a number of schools in the the area that I represented a district one that have really turned around and and, um, have kind of lowered or decreased the the gaps and turns of ah, in terms of achievement. Uh, SD has not been particularly good at being able to reproduce those experiences.

[0:13:53 Peniel] My final question when it comes to a I s t is about testing and just public schools in general. Do you think that we need to move, especially for educators are interested in students of color and black and Latin. Next, students move to a model where we’re not measuring achievement by tests. So in a way, I’m almost suggesting almost the banning of tests at least test that count as a measure of educational achievement. But Still, I want reading, writing all these things to be excellent, but tests?

[0:14:30 Ted] Yeah, I think that that is correct, that we need to be moving at direction. The problem is that currently ah or, um, Seders, in my experience as a school board member, Um, who came in Ah, deeply suspicious of a testing culture. Ah, and deeply, um, suspicious of the testing industrial complex. Ah, and also deeply suspicious about any tests ability to, uh, demonstrate the intelligence or even the academic capacity of a student. Ah, as a leader, as an educational leader and on the school board, uh, we really had no other tools besides those tests to be able to determine whether there was whether instruction was being equitably distributed amongst our Children. Ah, we certainly knew that, um, many of our black and brown kids were getting out of school with serious deficiencies in terms of reading and in terms of math. We knew that most of our black and brown kids get out of our schools without any chance of going toe onto a rigorous college education. But we had no other tools to be able to assess what was going on as they went through these programs than the standardized test. And in addition to that, we can say that standardized test do not, um, demonstrate people’s capacity. And I firmly believe that however, white students are doing great on standardized tests and black and brown kids, they’re not doing, you know well, it all now that has something to do with the cultural biases that are in the test themselves. But that’s not completely it. Ah, lot of it has to do with it. Our kids are not being taught the basic seals and turns of math and meeting to be able to do well on the standardized test for any other form of assessment. So what I would say to that you know that question? It’s one of the things that’s been a real problem in in Austin is that Austin, as a progressive city, has been very, um, again very suspicious of using standardized test evaluated students and its schools. I think the standardized test should not be used to evaluate students, but in lack with in the situation of the lack of an alternative assessment, I think there probably should be used to hold the district and schools responsible for delivering an education, which gives these kids a chance to succeed. The other thing I would say about that is that it is absolutely correct to be, you know, to really be critical standardized testing. But when you’ve got kids who are forced to take that test and who fail over and over again, the destruction psychologically and in relation to their their perceptions of themselves and their ability to succeed educationally, is devastating. Until we have some other way of dealing with things, I think we’ve got to be attentive and give these kids the tools necessary to be able to achieve in the way that we’re assessing.

[0:17:49 Peniel] And now I want to shift higher education in your role in higher education, both here, um, administratively at UT, but also as a thought leader in terms of black studies in an institution builder. You know, UT just celebrated 50 years of black studies. There was a major conference. I want you to discuss the history just generally give us a brief glimpse of the history of black studies at UT, including leading to your directorship of both the Center for African and African dashboard studies, But that becomes a department that has, you know, his house in the building. That’s offering a PhD. How did that happen here in Austin? Well, that’s

[0:18:31 Ted] a tall order, Pinel. You You are. You know, I’ve been here. As you said, my count was 30 years. But you maybe, right? Maybe 32. 1987. I was hired in 87. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Looking. It’s amazing. All right. Uh, at any rate, um, this has been a long process. So you t waas? Um, there was a lot of student activism and activism on the part of faculty members in the 19 sixties, which led to the opening up of an ethics studies centre in 69 the hiring of the first ah, African American tenured faculty member who was also a full professor. Henry Bullock in 69 head that up. Unfortunately, bullet got ill and only lasted a couple of years. By the time we get the 1973 the ethnic studies centre had been divided into two Mexican American studies on the one hand, and African and Afro American studies, on the other hand. And they hired a young fact a member from Michigan Ah, John War Field to head that up. Ah, the center is now named after war field, who spent ah number years as director and was actually really influential in terms of opening up black studies on this campus but also connecting black students and the black studies program on this campus with the rest of the African American community. And ah, in Austin. Some of the amazing things that he was able to do is he Ah, with others in the black community in Austin Austin black community created KZ I, which is still an operating black run public radio station. Ah, which is incredible. Ah, they, um I started ah black organization, the Black Citizens Task Force, which was the preeminent black power organization in in Austin for many, many years. They were the ones who demanded and got a, um, police monitor, etcetera, etcetera. So these were things that, um through organization on the U T campus under um ah, the auspices of a black studies program which kind of firmly believed and enacted. One of the main tenets of black studies is that scholarship should be used for social change and for the benefit of black community war feel was able to make those kind of things happen. Um, eventually, he was, um uh huh. He was tossed out of that position. Ah, to the chagrin and the demonstrations of black students against it.

[0:21:23 Peniel] And why was he was

[0:21:25 Ted] dismissed from that position by a dean who I will not hesitate to call Racists. And I don’t call very many people races. I remember sitting in a presentation a debate, um, in which he defended the bell curve against another sociology against a sociologist who ah, was, um, making criticism of it. This is a person who firmly believed that black people were intellectually inferior wife you. Um

[0:21:56 Peniel] wow.

[0:21:56 Ted] So it’s as dean. He he didn’t dismissed War Field for being too politically engaged, that the center was not academic enough. Ah, and he was supporting that by two African American factor members, one of whom was still on this campus. The other went on to a great career and of being president of an HBCU. Ah, and that’s that’s the relatively sorted history of the struggle for black for black black studies on this campus of you know, eventually we were able to starting about in the year 2000 moved towards expanding. Ah, the presence of black intellectual work on this intellectual and scholarly work on this campus. Part of that had to do with, uh, curiously enough, the hop would decision which, if you remember ah, it was a decision of was the fifth Circuit Court Federal Court was decided that you tease a friend of action program was illegal. And then there was a attorney general. Morale is who then served time in jail after that. But unless he decided that that decision should be ah amplified to cover all affirmative action programs in the state of Texas which undermined, um, the ability of u t. To engage in diversification of its factory and otherwise out of that instead of using affirmative action, we began to use what’s called thematic hiring toe higher faculty of color under the, um, theory that in certain areas of study there are pools of potential faculty members who are divers who are more concentrated. And so we began hiring alone those kinds of lines. And by doing that, we really strengthened the number of fact Lee on campus, who were doing black studies related kind of things from there was only a matter of time. We had a critical mass of black scholars on campus to begin thinking about forming a department. Our biggest problem was that because we were not a department, we were a center, the African, African and African American Studies Center. At the time, we couldn’t hire senior faculty because we had to rely on other departments to hire those faculty. Ah, that became a problem. And so basically we were granted the ability to create a department because we had a critical mass of outstanding young scholars. But also we need to have a way to be able to top off that mask, being able to hire senior scholars as well. And so that was That was basically the impetus for for creating the department. And we went on from there, as you said before, to create the master’s program in the PhD, etcetera,

[0:24:49 Peniel] sticking with black studies. What do you think the role of black studies is in the 21st century in promoting racial justice, equal citizenship, robust democracy? And I ask that because really adds at UT is one of about a dozen 15 programs across the country like Harvard, Yale, UT that offer PhDs in things that are variously called African and African die Sports studies some called African and Afro American studies. Um, just different Michigan State is one of them to Northwestern study study, etcetera. So we really seen a real growth, um, in black studies, especially black studies at elite institutions like UT. They’re offering not only PhDs, but they’re attracting brilliant students. And these students are being placed in major jobs. Just so everyone knows in major jobs all across the United States and across the world. So what do you think? The role when you think about black studies both in terms of undergraduates, graduates but also in terms of community engagement, academic, excellent social responsibility in the 21st century?

[0:26:01 Ted] Well, I think that the impart the role remains the same as you’re just saying. The role of black studies is to link rigorous scholarship to the resolution or what the transformation society and the ah, the resolution of the major problems that black and other communities of color have in this country and elsewhere. So I think that’s that. That’s a key aspect of what we need to be doing? Ah, always from me engaged research or even activist research is a key aspect of what black studies should be going all the way back to the boys on that hold the Boise and tradition. But beyond that, um, I think it’s very interesting that the top universities, the top research universities in this country, are all if they have, do not have or have not had black studies departments in the past. Ah, with doctoral programs, they are rapidly produced in Colombia. Just got one. You see, Les for one not so not so long ago. Uh, etcetera, etcetera.

[0:27:08 Peniel] Why do you think, guys that?

[0:27:09 Ted] I think that’s because, um, as Cornel West said so many years ago, Um, black studies scholars or folks who are studying the black experience and blink bringing black knowledge is to the fore, and turns of regular scholarship are at the cutting edge of, um of academic. It’s Carly theory. We are the ones. In other words, we pre side as Cornel West said postmodernism. The postmodern move, double consciousness, you know things, their sexuality, intersectionality of flexibility. Ah, black feminist reflectivity. These are all things that have come out of Ah, scholars who are either in black studies programs or who could be or working out of what might be called the kind of black uh, I know we had the black radical tradition that it’s called the black intellectual tradition. The critical intellectual tradition were at the forefront of critical thought. Ah ah, year or two ago I was in a conversation with someone. Ah, in a break, Ah, before testifying before the Liberal Arts Tenure and Promotion Committee. And ah fact remember, senior fact, remember from the flash department came to me and said, You know, I’ve been watching what’s been going on and ads for a while now, and for as far as I’m concerned, you folks are at the your the the wellspring of critical thought on this campus. Ah, and I think he’s absolutely right. Black studies is about critical thought, and it’s about creating um, theory and conceptualization that comes from a different place than the cannon. And but it’s also well versed in the canon because we’ve got to know to get through through Ah, you know, the scholarly bureaucracy and all that. And I think we’ve been well placed and have done, um really important work in turns of adding creating the critical edge for scholarship, particularly in the humanities and the social sciences in this country. In the last 30 40 years,

[0:29:17 Peniel] when you think about black studies on this campus, I think it forces us all. And they’re you know, there’s black studies and Warfield’s center and I you pra I I lead the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy, and I’m a black studies scholar as well. But it forces us all to think about issues of justice and equity. And right now you are vice provost for diversity. And, um, I want you to talk about your role. Is vice provost for diversity, especially if somebody who’s been on campus as long as you have been and have seen both progress and setbacks in terms of equity here, what is your role? And really, um, what should we be doing as a university? Because, you know about the 1928 ordinance, um, I you pra headed by Kevin Coakley has done great work on this. Eric Tang has done great work on this faculty member and adds, um, looking at gentrification in Austin Inequity in Austin and really inequity at every single sector. Residential, employment, transportation, the environment, education, incarceration. And we face equity issues right here on campus with both black and Latin X scholars, even those who have tenure in terms of equity issues about pay leave time. What people have gotten access to do? Why, um So I want you to talk about your role as vice provost. And what are what are the challenges that we face it? The university. But what are the real opportunities and potential to make us a leading, um, major research university That has not, if not solve these issues have made great progress in terms of these issues of equity and justice.

[0:30:59 Ted] Yeah, I would say, first of all that we certainly have not solve these issues. And in terms of having made great progress Ah, we’ve made progress. Um, but we started out pretty far behind. In other words, it wasn’t until 1950 when we had our first graduate students here 56 when we had our first undergrad is here. And as I said, it was 69 when we had our 1st 10 years of factly. Black factor member on campus. So this. This is, you know, within my lifetime. So we had a long way to come. In terms of that, we still got a long way to go. Uh, there’s a number of things that have toe happen, I think, First of all, first of foremost, the university detectives has to recognize its historic role in terms of foam, any inequity, both as an institution within the institution, but also within Central Texas and Austin in particular. Uh, the first instance of what I would call anti black gentrification in this city happened with the placement of this institution in its on these 40 acres here, one of the most vibrant black communities freed peoples communities. Wheat ville was wiped out pretty much within, You know, 60 to 70 years after the creation of this institution here by the ways in which, um, first of all land prices went up and competition for resource is went up. Uh, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, this institution has a long history. You can also think about the fact that the wealthiest ex Confederate used this campus to create the largest last cause memorial on a university campus in this country right here on Austin, Texas, right?

[0:32:49 Peniel] Is that Littlefield?

[0:32:50 Ted] Yep, it’s Littlefield. And that’s the whole South Mall complex there, the vestiges of which are still right there. He also contributed mightily to its reproduction on the South mall of the Capitol building. All those things are still there. So white supremacy and, you know, lost cause ideology is at the very core of the university. In fact, I call this university at least since its its founding in 18 0 it’s opening in 18 83 up through the sixties. A neo Confederate university is not a Confederate university, all right, it’s not the same thing as the antebellum South and all that. But these are neo confederates who created this as a neo Confederate university, so as the um, the vice provost for diversity, my main responsibilities in terms of faculty diversity. Ah, and a zoo said, we have a long way to go here, and I think one of the first things that the university has to come to terms with is too often, especially after Baki. We tend to think about diversity as being something that’s good for everybody and something that will hours to by having diverse faculty will allow us to appeal to a diverse clientele and serve diverse markets and this kind of thing, those things are important. Um, it’s important that all students have, ah, exposure to diverse peoples into diverse faculty and think you just learn more all that that’s important. But it’s an instrumental notion of what diversity is. I’m equally interested in the moral issues involved. In other words, this university has a more responsibility to address its past its past, which was not inclusive and not equitable. In other words, one of the only reason we have to be concerned about diversity now is because in the past we have not been inclusive, inequitable. If we have been inclusive, equal in the past, diversity would not be an issue. Now we need to recognize that, and we need to recognize our responsibilities to address that Now. I said that the Baki decision has allow folks to be diverted from that sense of moral obligation, in part because Baki said, we couldn’t think about addressing the issues of past. But we’re not talking about affirmative action here. We’re talking about what is the university’s mawr responsibility to be an inclusive and equitable institution demonstrated by our diversity, and I think that we need to embrace him. What does that mean? It means to me it means that we need to be doing more than just bringing down as much as possible the barriers to doing the kind of hiring that would created verse factory. Those things are important, right? We need to be attacking implicit racism and all that in our searches and in our promotion and all that kind of thing. But beyond that, because we have a moral obligation to address this particular past, we need to be more proactive about those things. We need to be putting into place the kinds of rules and incentives that will actively in proactively ah, diversify ourselves rather than just relying on the notion of bringing down the barriers to equal opportunity. Because equal opportunity in a formerly racist circumstance will only reproduce the inequities that, um were set in place by the history that were a product of

[0:36:24 Peniel] absolutely We need equality of outcomes and not just opportunity

[0:36:28 Ted] and order get equality of outcomes. You have to be proactive. You can’t just say, All right, Well, we’re gonna bring down the barriers and it’s gonna happen. You have to be out there recruiting. You had to be making the right kind of circumstance. For people to be able to feel comfortable. You have to be investing in the kinds of programs that are attractive to folks That will bring in a diverse, ah, population, etcetera.

[0:36:50 Peniel] But we can’t call it affirmative action.

[0:36:53 Ted] Well, if we did that, we don’t have to call it for erection. What it is doing is it trying to make sure that we inclusive and equitable and that we’re building a diverse, ah diverse community of scholars both because it is good for everybody, but even more important, because it’s the right thing to do.

[0:37:11 Peniel] All right, Dr Ted Gordon, who is vice provost for diversity and the founding chair and associate professor in the Department of African and African Die Sports Studies. Thank you for speaking to us today at Racing Democracy. It’s been a pleasure.

[0:37:26 Ted] Thanks for having me.

[0:37:28 Peniel] Thanks for listening to this episode and you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P-e-n-i-e-l  J-o-s-e-p-h and our Web site, CSRD.LBJ.utexas.edu and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you.