Ep. 44 – Black Lives Matter and LatinX Allyship: A Conversation with Karma Chávez

[0:00:07 Narration] Welcome to Race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship.

[0:00:07 Peniel Joseph] On today’s podcast, we’re pleased to be joined by Dr Karma are Chavez, who is the department chair and a professor at the University of Texas at Austin in the Department of Mexican American and Latina Latino Studies. Dr. Chavez, Welcome to race and democracy.

[0:00:41 Karma Chávez] Thanks so much for having me. It’s good to be here.

[0:00:44 Peniel Joseph] Well, you do scholarship at the intersection of queer people of color theory and women of color feminism, and this is such an extraordinary moment that we’re in when we’re seeing of these national and global movements for racial justice in the aftermath of George Floyd’s public execution by the Minneapolis Police Department. Um, I would love to have a discussion with you about ally ship, especially within the context of black and Latin X identities. I know I’ve seen on social media. People have lapped next for black lives matter, but then others criticizing and say. But there’s Afro Latinos on. And then when you get into the politics of queer and LGBT Q within those identities, it could be quite complex. And then when you add layers of feminism. And so many black queer women, um, have been leaders of the black lives matter movement when we think about Opel timidity and Alicia Garza and Patrice Kahn colors, but so many more. Um, so I wanna get into that discussion. How do you What do you think about what’s transpiring really globally? Um, at this moment,

[0:02:00 Karma Chávez] well, it’s such an immense question because it’s hard to keep track of, actually, everything that is going on, except to say that it actually feels like things might be changing. It actually feels like a lot of white folks and non black people of color are actually following black leadership, actually really trying toe understand in a deep and meaningful way what anti blackness is and how that differs from the kinds of racial oppression that other minorities groups face, and also how it forms the basis for the oppression that Latinos and and others might face. And so I think people are getting a deep racial consciousness that maybe hasn’t impossible before, and I also think people are really, really realizing in this moment the police are not our friends, that in fact, if police were designed, of course, as slave patrols. Originally Ah, they’ve continued that legacy and that we can no longer participate in that. We can, even if the police don’t bother us personally, we can no longer participate in that. And it’s timeto follow radical black leadership in that regard as well. Uh, of course, it’s complicated. Uh,

[0:03:31 Peniel Joseph] yeah, I want I want I want toe interject here when you say it’s time to follow radical black leadership because there’s been a lot of discussion of Ally ship, but across the white black color line. And so, you know, even obviously on campus, we have, um, African and African Diaspora studies. But we also have Mexican American and Latino Latino studies, which are actually occupying the same building. Um, what about allies? Ship within? What are the potentials for ally ship? And what are the challenges, whether it’s on campus off campus? Obviously, we live in Austin, Texas, which has a really robust, uh, Mexican and Spanish speaking immigrant community. What are some of the potentials and the challenges, conflicts, contradictions of the Allied ship between black and Latin X of people and groups?

[0:04:27 Karma Chávez] Yeah, I mean, I think it’s interesting we are if if you’re if you’re not ah, black person of color. You know, I think it’s, um Afro pessimism that would refer to us as sort of junior partners to white supremacy. Right? And so we’re still, of course, impacted by the negative impacts of that. But we are absolutely beneficiaries of that as well. And this in, I’ll say in the latter next community. Ah, and I should say in the misty so or the white Latin next community and be very specific about the racial politics there. This is very challenging because we have sort of analogized our oppression with the black community. And simultaneously he raised the black members of our community and, you know, in the United States something like 25% of lati. Next folks identifies Afro Latina X, and so it’s not like, Ah, let’s next. So it’s not like this is, ah, a small sector, the population, but it it’s very hard when you’re used to being in a press person to wrap your head around the fact that you’re also implicated in other people’s oppression. And so this is a huge challenge is something that my department, actually the meeting right after this call is to have a conversation with colleagues about how we can begin to center Afro Latina God and how we can challenge the white and misty so members of our community on their racism on their anti blackness.

[0:05:56 Peniel Joseph] Yeah, I love to talk about that because I think one of the reasons why at times black and Latin next people have had conflicts and there’s obviously good scholarship on this is, uh, you know, racism within, uh, the Latin X communities at times black American anti immigration sentiment. At times, that’s overblown. But at times it exists in terms of competition, over jobs, employment in places like Los Angeles, places like North Carolina. But we think about historically, uh, black movements have reached out to Latin X movements where we’re thinking about farm workers and Cesar Chavez or the Young Lords and Brown Berets and the Black Panthers. But in a lot of ways since, like you said, there’s such a wide spectrum of Latin X identity in the United States. There are certainly some groups who are more Anglo identifying and in that sense, at times, get racial privilege, especially those who can pass for white or come very close. So what can we do to to end that and mitigate that could certainly we even feel it on campus, you know? I mean, I think there are Latinos on campus scholars who, you know aren’t necessarily interested in either African American and black African diaspora, ex solidarity, and at times aren’t necessarily really interested in Mexican American studies, either. They, you know, they’re really in between. It’s actually fascinating to see, because many times they won’t necessarily except a racialized identity, except in moments that they might use that to leverage that in their faith. But they’re not necessarily in solidarity broadly with either of those communities.

[0:07:45 Karma Chávez] Yeah, absolutely. I was just having this exact conversation with folks in an earlier organizing meeting today to figure out, um, you know how how those of us who feel differently than that within the last next community what we need to be doing to to address this because it’s it’s very challenging, and what I’ll say is not very satisfying. But it’s that, you know, nonblack last next. Folks need political education. We need to understand the sort of complexity of the racial formation of the United States of America, and we need to understand also ourselves within a context of Latin American racial formations and how that informs the anti blackness that our communities carry with us to the United States, even those of us who have been here for several generations, like my family. Those dynamics remain, and so we need political education and lati next nonblack lacks Next. Folks need to do it, cause it’s not the job of, you know, Afro Latinos or African Americans to do this work for us.

[0:08:47 Peniel Joseph] Now where do you see this going? Because I ready, look, and we’re seeing really unprecedented um, corporate mia culpas. Black lives matter the NFL. NASCAR has taken down the Confederate flag. Um, it’s definitely this global movement, and we’re seeing this. The United States and Austin. It’s not just about the criminal justice. It’s about this movement for black dignity and citizenship, but other allies of color or would be allies of color. I think sometimes right now feel both excited, especially those who are on the streets supporting, but then those of us who are part of the petty bourgeoisie, right? The academics might be people who have a political identity. But it might be a political identity that is really reserved for access to these different democratic institutions in our society, like higher education mawr in the political sphere, they’re not necessarily out in the streets, even if at one point they have did, Um and I see there some concern among Latin X allies and friends who are saying, Well, what about us? And then I see pushback from black friends, even dice for Klay who say, Well, no, this is our time. And if we achieve freedom, it’s going to reverberate back, toe all these different intersectional groups and go point to black last matter and their policy agenda, actually having a very robust immigration policy agenda and reparations for immigration that includes not only just Spanish speakers and Latin X, but immigrants from West Africa. Immigrants from the Middle East, immigrants from the Caribbean of Haiti, for example, where where my people are from. So what do you What do you say these these faces that we operate in like a the University of Texas Austin when you’re already feeling concerns? And I heard this from Native American folks, too, Asian folks, some who want allies ship, and they want to step into the arena with that black freedom struggle. But others who are feeling concerned and saying What about our strong’s?

[0:10:59 Karma Chávez] Yeah, this is such a common thing. And I think it emerges in part because of the sort of divide and conquer kind of give people of color writ large the crumbs. And so we’re constantly fighting over this, you know, tiny little bit of recognition that we get. And if somebody else is getting it, we have a zero sum game mentality. Ah, and I’ll tell you, I see this with my own family. I was I actually haven’t talked to them in a couple of weeks because of this exact thing. So my partner is black and my family is My mom is white and my dad is Mexican American. And so we’re all mixed race kids, and we grew up in rural Nebraska. So, you know, we were about the darkest thing out there, right there. Just weren’t a lot of people of color. And so because we occupied that position, you know, both of my brothers had run ins with the cops. Both my brothers have been brutalized by the cops. Now that happened in a very particular context. But after everything happened with George Floyd, you know, my siblings were texting back and forth on the family chain and they were saying things like, Oh, you know, be careful out there. There’s riots and low bought. And I was like, Guys, you know, let’s think about the way we’re talking about this And finally my partner, who’s the only black person in this conversation, you know, she jumps in and says something really astute about, you know, Please think about the way you’re talking about this and who it actually impacts and who this is about. And I was so I don’t even know how to describe my disappointment because immediately one of my brothers who was beat up by the cops who lost movement his arm for six months, right? He went through a really bad time. But he just immediately went into this sort of analogizing between his experience and like George Floyd and I was like, You’re alive hand, you know, And it I was. It was just so symbolic of this inability to see blackness without analogy. And so this is a question I’m trying to figure out I don’t have a good answer, but it’s stuff that has to constantly be worked on, and it’s my job to do it.

[0:13:18 Peniel Joseph] What can we do on campus? Because some of what we see on campus, where they were thinking about women’s studies Latin next studies African. An African diaspora studies. You know, I’m in the History Department, LBJ Center for the Study of Race and Democracy. We have so many different people who are interested in racial justice. But at times, and it’s not just our campus at UT, this is nationally. You know, people of color nationally were deeply interested in intersectional justice and my at interested in queer, you know, Lbgt Cube. Uh, connecting this with people of color. Indigenous people, black people, uh, people have been marginalized because of their non able bodied nous or mental illness. Or they’re cash poor H i V positive food. Distressed. So many different things, and they’re serious about, but it seems like they don’t necessarily get together. And that solidarity pieces very hard because of academic differences, ideological differences, sometimes personality. Yeah, and I think in the streets right now we’re seeing this radical Revolutionary democracy movement around black lives matter around all these deaths of black women and men historically, but a tipping point in the context of covert 19 mass unemployment, neo liberalism, racial violence and terror. You know against so many different people, including Latin explodes and what they’ve done with the tension camps and really despicable federal and local policy that’s anti human. But what can we do to really push that solidarity? Peace? Just even, you know, in ways that his conversation, I feel, could really be scaled up two different universities across the country because, you know, we are everywhere. Think about Spanish speakers and black folks who were everywhere, and we’ve contributed so much to, uh, the humanities and social sciences. Especially right now. The hot study of sort of intersectionality border studies, you know, Mexican American studies, Latina, Latino studies, black studies, these different feminism’s and geography ease of feminism and anti colonialism. You know, we we invented all that right. What can we do to stand in solidarity with each other both on the campuses and take that bet off the campus?

[0:15:50 Karma Chávez] Well, this is ah, important and complex question. I think you know one of the things that I have been working on a University of Texas is, Ah, building this sort of loose initiative that we’re calling the Grids Initiative, which is gender, race, indigenous, 80 Disability and sexuality Studies initiative. And presently it’s, ah, loose partnership between Black Studies. Lati next studies indigenous studies, Asian American studies, LGBT Q studies and gender women’s studies. And it emerged out of the work of the College of Liberal Arts Diversity Committee and we, the group of us, that is, you know, kind of building this thing. You know, our view is that all of our units should be able to maintain our autonomy, and yet we’re stronger together, and this is a way to fortify ourselves against divide and conquer politics. Now it’s always a fragile coalition, right? It’s always got the potential to to fall apart by any number of little things. And so for me, it’s about constantly kind of managing conversations between people, figuring out where there might be weaknesses and then trying toe, you know, foster those relationships to be even better directions and then build projects together. So, you know, we ran this giant cluster higher where so far, we’ve hired five new colleagues of color who will join the college. A little arts, hopefully seven within the next couple of weeks. Uh, that’s huge. And that was through this grids initiative. We’ve hired several post stocks over the last several years, and so I think, in the institution. It’s about building infrastructures like this that are deeply embedded in a kind of politics and that are full of open communication. And I think in general that’s what has to work outside as well. But it’s really hard work. I mean, I think it was Bernice Johnson Reagan who said Coalitions aren’t like home. You know, it’s not like, you know, having a bottle. They they feel like they can kill you right on. And that’s true because coalitions are not in group. They’re a bunch of groups together, so it’s hard, hard work, and it really is largely about shared politics and about good communication.

[0:18:10 Peniel Joseph] Do you think when you think about coalitions that right now what we need to do in the aftermath of thes racial justice, uprisings from black lives matter is the kind of multiracial, multicultural coalitions that Dr King tried to build in 1967 68 with the poor People’s Campaign, which had indigenous and Mexican and black and white. Ah, and Native American and just the whole the whole rainbow spectrum in the United States demanding guaranteed citizenship rights, decent housing, universal basic income. What do you think the next steps should be?

[0:18:50 Karma Chávez] Well, it’s all fine and well to build coalitions. But if the if the coalition’s aren’t actually premised in a deep analysis of capitalism and white supremacy at the same time, Ah, there ultimately only going to be able to address symptoms. And you know this country has an allergy to the word socialism, for example. Ah, and people feel like there could be a kinder and gentler capitalism. And so that is one of the mean and all addition, all the other things. That’s one of the big challenges here is we have to move outside of just the politics of representation. Ah, and start thinking about politics of redistribution. But fundamentally, um, if those coalitions are also deeply aware of the question of settler colonialism and deeply aware of the foundational question of anti blackness, they’re also not going anywhere. So I don’t have a good answer, but I just think it’s like all of these things have to be held together at once. And so the kind of rainbow Coalition idea is nice. But it’s, um it’s a lot more complicated in that.

[0:20:01 Peniel Joseph] Do you find hope in what’s happening with the calls to defund the police in the context of sort of redistributive, um, politics? Whether we’re gonna call it redistributive social democracy, we’re just a redistribution of resource is, or wealth. This idea defund the police by really reallocating resource is reimagining what we think about public safety in the way in which those conversations are forcing hard conversations that really virtually every sector of society, including the university.

[0:20:36 Karma Chávez] I think this is fantastic. It reminds me of 2018. I guess it was when there were all the demands to abolish ice immigration and Customs Enforcement, and I couldn’t believe I mean, I’m a prison abolitionist, and I couldn’t believe that abolition language had actually entered into the mainstream. And now, when you looked more closely at how people were talking about abolish eyes, they many of the mainstream organizations were terrified of the idea. But, you know, it’s a way to get their message out, and then they could talk about you know what they’re gonna talk about under that banner. And I think that actually has something to do with this moment, which is when we talk about the fund police. The next logical step is to dismantle and then abolish and put something else in its place. And I think this is deeply exciting. I think this is precisely the direction we need to go because it actually strikes at the root of the problem. It’s actually a radical move. And, um, you know, I’ve like, been with so many people dreaming about this moment, and I think we might actually be here, and we’ll see if I’m not too hopeful about that in Austin right now, to be honest. But things are looking pretty promising. At least in Minneapolis.

[0:21:56 Peniel Joseph] Get my final question. Karma is really that question about hope. What are your hopes for this moment? Both in the short term? On the long term,

[0:22:08 Karma Chávez] I guess I might say that I inhabit this moment subjectively, uh, with the subjunctive moods so a bit uncertain and ah, cautious about where we’re going. I think people following black leadership is incredible. It’s exciting to me. And because of you know, the nature of the kind of intersectional analysis of so many black leaders, this is a truly expansive and inclusive movement. So I’m excited about that. I’m excited that the conversation about anti blackness is actually circulating widely, not just racism. Um, so those those things give me hope.

[0:22:58 Peniel Joseph] All right, I love ending podcasts on hopeful, hopeful notes and cautious optimism. Um, we’ll leave it there. We’ve been talking to Dr. Karma Chávez, who is the chair and professor in the Department of Mexican American studies, Mexican American and Latina Latino studies at the University of Texas at Austin. And we’ve been talking really about intersectionality coalition building between groups of racially oppressed people of color but also following black leadership and really having this open national conversation on anti blackness and not just racism and trying to eradicate in defeat White supremacy in 2020. In the context of the George Floyd protest. Dr. Chavez, thank you for joining us.

[0:23:45 Karma Chávez] Thanks so much for having me.

[0:23:47 Narration] Thanks for listening to this episode. And you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph That’s P-E-N-I-E-L J-O-S-E-P-H and our website CS rd dot LBJ that utexas dot e d u and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the Liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you