Ep. 43 – Bayard Rustin, Black Lives Matter, and Black LGBTQIA Allyship: A Conversation with Robert Martin Seda-Schreiber

[0:00:00 Narration] welcome to race and democracy, a podcast on the intersection between race, democracy, public policy, social justice and citizenship.

[0:00:07 Peniel Joseph] On today’s podcast, we are pleased to welcome a friend of the podcast, Uh, who’s gonna be a guest here for the very first time. Robert Martin Seda-Schreiber, who is the chief activist and head of the fired Rustin Center for Social Justice. Robert has been a schoolteacher for over 25 years who established New Jersey’s first middle school gay straight alliance. He’s been honored as a New Jersey state champion of equality, has served as a Fulbright scholar in Japan, received two Senate proclamations recognizing his service to the community. Ah, and has been named any a social justice activist of the year. He’s named after Kennedy and a king. He marched on D. C. In the womb and has since followed the path each and every day of his life. His boots have already been on the ground, both literally and figuratively. Ah, welcome Robert Martin to race in democracy.

[0:01:25 Robert Martin] It is an extraordinary pleasure, my friend, to be here.

[0:01:29 Peniel Joseph] Well we’ve just finished Pride Month, and I want to introduce our listeners really, who was Bayard Rustin. What is the mission of the Rustin center? Ah, for social justice. You all have received so much publicity. Rightfully so of late. A letter from Barack Obama. Ah, Valerie Jarrett, one of Obama’s chief advisers, was a guest on the rust and center power. Our you’ve been doing such big deep in fact, impactful work. But in the context of all the racial justice uprisings, the black lives, matter, uprisings, the by rest in center has made an even bigger imprint on connecting L G B T. Q I A. Movements to racial justice, movement and and black lives matters. I want I want you to tell us: what does the Rustin center do? Who was Bayard Rustin? Why is he so important?

[0:02:24 Robert Martin] Well I thank you so much for asking a question, and the answer is, uh, quite robust. I’ll do my best and being expedient. But Shakespeare has never been a fan of mine, as brevity is not the sole of my wit. Um, Bayard Rustin first and foremost was the inspiration for the Freedom writers. He was the primary architect of the march on Washington 63. He is the one that came to Dr King and convinced him Teoh, create the nonviolent ah, platform of the civil rights movement. In fact, when by rest and went to King’s house on do this the story that I am familiar with maybe apocryphal, but I choose to tell it, um, Corretta said to Dr King, I think we’ve made it. So Rustin was always very important figure in the civil rights movement. And when he went that night, um, king and rusting argued from dust to dawn about the impact of what Nonviolence would bring to the movement. In fact, King had guards at his house at that moment with guns on, rightfully so. His family was threatened each and every day, Um, physically, emotionally, psychologically. But he saw the change fruit Bayard Rustin’s teachings. And I think it was incredibly impactful for the civil rights movement moving forward. He also, you know, did these other great things by arresting brought the peace symbol itself to America. He was, ah, nuclear disarmament rally in 1958 mainland, and he brought that symbol back with him. I’m he also coined the term speaking truth to power. So by Rustin was, is incredibly important figure in so many different communities. Yet his name was lost to history, his very identity excise out of history books. And when you let them

[0:04:26 Peniel Joseph] Let me interject here. And when you think about fired rusting, obviously he’s he’s he’s a gay black man. Why was his name lost to history? Despite all of these, these accolades and the impact that he had on the civil rights movement and the peace movement, gay rights, just so many different social movements.

[0:04:48 Robert Martin] Well, that then that answer it close to so many different threads. First and foremost, he was out and proud. He was not ashamed of identity. He identified as a gay man at a time when not only was it not fashionable, but it was literally something would be arrested for and he wants, um so everybody realized himself included that he had take a background in the movement. He would be, ah, mover and Shaker and do things behind the scenes. But he could not be seen. He could not be heard. You cannot be recognized. And that, unfortunately followed him almost his entire life. He was only recognized pretty much after his death. President Obama posthumously awarded him the Medal of Freedom. His partner, Walter Naval, was there to accept the honor, but Buyer never received those athletes. But here’s the thing about fired is that he never wanted those accolades. He wanted to do the work. The work was, was most important to him. You know, he was the godfather of Intersectionality some 2030 years before Kimberly Crenshaw, even pointing the term. So what we try to do with the center is carry on his name, his spirit, his energy and the power that he held by holding onto his identity but also moving forward. Not only his communities not only the people of color, not only the LGBTQ community, but he saw the impact it had on so many other folks who could come together. You know, he was huge in the movement of unionization and making sure that workers had rights and were protected. He knew that was such a huge part of the struggle of the LGBTQ community of people of color. And I think now is the moment you were mentioned how the center now is getting a lot more notice and we’re thrilled about that, not for our own sake. But it means that by Russians name his mission. His identity is being recognized, and I think this is a moment that we hope will become a movement. This is a moment where all our communities air, finally realizing that we can come together not by trying to homogenize everything but recognizing, respecting and shouting out our differences in the name of the same struggle of being no longer marginalized, no longer for gotten no longer disrespected, but coming to the forefront and having people recognize that our voices or identities, our very beings need to be all that is in our society.

[0:07:35 Peniel Joseph] I want to talk about Intersectionality because, like you said, Rustin talked about Intersectionality before Kimberly Crenshaw, but certainly black feminists, black women activists, including LGBT Q. I A. Activists have been talking about feminism since the 18th and 19th centuries, so we’re taking Ida B. Wells, Mariah Stewart and Sojourner Truth. Anna Julia Cooper, Lorraine Hansberry, Order Lord Barbara Smith Um, and now Barbara Ran’s Be Opal. Too many Patrice Kahn colors. I want to discuss Intersectionality in the context of black LGBT Q. I A activism and protest because within the LGBT Q A community Historically there has been racist. There’s been classes. There’s been anti black racism, which at times is really impacted and virtually silenced. Black LGBT q. I A activists and just people. Teenagers were thinking about those who are HIV positive, disproportionately black. Those who are sexually trafficked, assaulted, killed, a murdered victims of domestic violence. So I want to ask and talk about what the rest in center is doing in this space, but what we should all be doing in this space. The New York Times has a new ah report that there’s been almost 5000 protests since May 25th with anywhere between 15 and 26 million people having participated. So this is the largest, ah, political mobilization for black dignity and citizenship in American history by far. So what can be done on the ground? We saw the mass protests for black Trans lives in Brooklyn recently, thousands and thousands of people. And so we’ve seen some of the biggest mobilization, both for civil rights and human rights, ending racism, ending white supremacy, but specifically for black LGBT Q. I A communities. So when you think about white allies, ship within and outside of the LGBT Q. I A community’s what can be done to really push anti black racism? Um uh, anti racism rather in those spaces because for so long, the black side of those spaces, even within you, think about Pride Month and I know the rest of center absolutely pushes back against this. But what can we do to scale this up?

[0:10:15 Robert Martin] Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s definitely a challenge of our times, right that we want to make sure that we’re respecting the platform of black lives matter and making sure that that are, are we want to defund the police. We want to abolish prisons. We want to make sure that all those primary bulls are things that we consider and we move forward. But at the same moment, we can embrace each other and say, OK, black lives matter. And then we also can say right afterwards, Black trans lives matter, right? And you mentioned the movement in Brooklyn, the rally that was about two weeks school now that had tens of thousands of folks, and one of the organizers of that was Rachael Willis, who we had on our power our a couple of weeks ago, and she’s in a tremendously important and powerful voice. I think one of things we need to really put the action is twofold, especially when you talk that went white ally ship right is one that we stand and we make sure that were there to protect with our bodies and our energy. But then we stand aside and pass. The mic was literally infinitive Lee at every opportunity possible. I think these are things that we have Teoh not only ah in platitude and ideal anymore, but in reality and performance. I think that one of the things we also have to consider is that the great, um thought behind what is an ally. What is, um, an advocate and what is a coconspirator? And have we move up that level? And how do we find our space in there to help our community’s best come together?

[0:12:07 Peniel Joseph] Now, when you think about this idea of co conspirators, I know one of the slogans of the rest and Center for Social Justice is this idea quote from buyers rusting we need in every community, a group of angelic troublemakers. So I want to talk about that troublemaker that co conspirator in really more detail because certainly I agree with everything that you’ve been saying. And how are white allies have to really amplify the voices of black leadership in this case, I want to talk about specifically black LGBT Q I a leadership what specifically, we think about policies that will be implemented for the LGBT Q. I A community and, like Dr King said, with radical citizenship not just obliterating the transphobic and ah, the policies that are oppressed. The LGBT Q I community but institutionalizing policies that center black LGBT Q I A Lives and their futures. What can we do? Both the rust and center. But what can we all do as citizens and keep this foremost when we’re thinking about our activism and braiding this into whatever we’re interested in? Environmental activism, educational activism? Defund the police, abolish prison voting rights? What what are the steps we should be fit taking? And what should we be thinking on this on this issue?

[0:13:36 Robert Martin] Well, first and foremost remember, the Intersectionality does not only refer Teoh groups and two people, but two issues. So, as you said, putting all those issues together, realizing there’s one foundation behind them all. And that’s there are there’s just systemic racism, systemic transphobia. There’s always going to be, ah, group of folks that are looking Teoh. Push the next group down. Right? So once one group is accepted into society, or, you know, at least, um, on ah, superficial level. Then we look at the next group that there’s gonna be marginalized. And right now, you know, it was it was trans folks for a while. And then when people push back against that, thankfully, then it was black. Trans folks, right there always will look to marginalize a smaller and smaller group because they’re always looking to drive a wedge between us. So we cannot organize, so we cannot unionize. So we cannot see that our collective struggle is one. And how do we do that? On institutional level, we never disparage any opportunity. We have to speak up and out, You know, whether it is. We just represented and helped a teenage a young woman, uh, in a very small community here in New Jersey who wanted to a vigil for George Floyd, and she asked us if we would help her to organize, and we’re thrilled to be a part of that and we kept are part of it in the background just to help her amplify her voice when she wanted to do. And of course, you know that’s not a national level. That’s not gonna get us much exposure. What it’s gonna do, though, is do the true work that we need to do. And what happened is we had hundreds of people come out in this community, a town that barely has hundreds of folks in their citizenship, came out, spoke out, and we’re introduced to these concepts. So when I spoke that rally, you know, we had other folks talking about defunding the police when other folks talking about abolishing the prisons, when other folks respecting and recognizing and shouting out George Floyd’s name and the other victims of police oppression. So what we did is the Russian center. We spoke. We spoke about black trends, folks specifically, you know, and and even small things. And this may seem superficial is may seem inconsequential, but small things when you think about language, when you think about saying ladies and gentlemen and how even that needs to be adjusted and it’s something we’re all used to especially myself, is a former school teacher. That’s what I said to my students, and I have to catch myself. And it’s easy enough you addressed your language by saying such things is, ladies and gentlemen, and are non binary friends and it means the world. It really does. And these small things then become larger things. And we got to be at a round table with Senator Bob Menendez of New Jersey is speak up about these issues. We had to be at the Advocates panel with Governor Murphy to make sure these voices are being heard. We make sure we send, we send the right folks. We send the right representation, will make sure that we are committed again. The idea of passing the mic that were there when you need to be there. So voices air amplified but want those voices are amplified Step. It helped that.

[0:17:14 Peniel Joseph] Now I want to ask you about white gay male power, both at the political, social, economic cultural level, because when I read black trans literature and read about black lesbian and gay activism, they have a real critique of, at times white, uh, male gay activism and white lesbianism to that is very, very mainstream. That could be very, very powerful and popular Both When we think about our politics and our culture. When you think about gay sports stars, um, who are white but have really shied away from defending black, gay, lesbian transsexual a non binary just, you know, just just really have not talked about that. What can we do on that score? How can we make some of these? Uh, some of these figures are very, very powerful. You think about, um, somebody like Ellen Degenerate. So you think about Megan rippin on who has stood in solidarity? Um, but many of them don’t many don’t. And what is the disconnect there where you have these white gay and lesbian figures were powerful, who are active on behalf of that specific community and on certain issues like gay marriage, same sex marriage. But when it comes to talking about these issues of poverty and marginalisation and oppression and brat brutality against black, gay and lesbian and training sexual and non binary folks there silent there really, really silent. And so what? What is going on there? Because I know when I read the literature that is a big discussion that’s still going on. It’s still happening.

[0:19:01 Robert Martin] Yeah, this indeed is problematic, unfortunately. And if I may, I’ll tell you a story that I think that in again. You know, I try not to talk in platitudes, ideals. I try to tell stories. I try to give concrete examples. So we hosted it. We organized the first Pride parade ever in Princeton, New Jersey, last year, and that was pretty phenomenal in and of itself, that there wasn’t a pride event before and a bed, the question of Why not? That’s a separate issue. After we organized the parade, which had 3000 folks in the street, um, we held a meeting for the queer community because one of the things that folks asked us about was did you go to the community and talking about what they wanted to see? If this pride event and what we found was there were, ah, whole message individuals, but there was no community. There was no collective. So we created that out of whole cloth on a community. Outreach coordinator Carol Watch Learn has been doing this work for five decades now, created a career community and we had our first event. We had, ah, potluck. So we had come together, get to know each other and know what the concerns of the community now for being empowered and organized were. And the event was a tremendous success. We expected maybe a dozen, maybe 20 or so people. We had over 50. It was wonderful. And we were so proud of ourselves. And the next day we were, you know, really thrilled at what were the loo accomplished. And our intern came to us, who was from Harvard Divinity. And our intern was a transgender individual. And they said the entire evening they were mis gendered the entire evening. Their identity was not recognised, not respected. And they were sorry to come to me to tell me this because they knew how excited we were about it’s occasion. How successful it waas. And the first thing I said to him is, Don’t ever apologize for representing yourself for speaking up and out for yourself, and this is what we need to do about it. And at the cost of perhaps losing this community that we had tried so hard to organize at offending them. We asked Lee Ah, put out a statement from our intern with our full support behind it, saying We have to recognize every member of our community, and it can’t just be some members or this distinct faction of the community. Has we all of us or none of us? And what was thrilling about that is the response was nothing but positive. And I truly think that folks just need education. They need to be aware. They need to recognize the need to understand that they are the leaving people behind when they’re not recognizing people in any community, in any faction of our society. And this is why this moment is so ideal and so extraordinary because I think we have that opportunity to do that. And if we just speak up and out and never apologize and never allow ourselves, we put in the background. I think that we have a tremendous opportunity to make that difference and again to make this moment into a movement and make sure that we are all recognised at the same time in the same struggle.

[0:22:31 Peniel Joseph] Yeah, and I think it’s already a movement. Robert Martin. I would say that this movement is really coming out of the Black Lives Matter movement of 2013 that has really helped ignite March for our lives and black LGBT. Q I A. Plus allies. Immigration rights, Muslim rites. Uh, mom, you know, gun control. So many different. The women’s marches, so many different marches and now has coalesced into this riel intersectional call for black dignity and citizenship. But that intersex with LGBT Q I A that intersects with the rights of immigrants and poor people and HIV positive and people who have mental health and who are living under segregation, economic impoverishment, the criminal justice system, just every aspect. So we think about reparations. We think about all these issues. One thing I’d like to discuss with you is political power, because we know Barack Obama did not support gay marriage until it became, in his mind more politically feasible. But I would argue it’s really once there was a social justice movement big enough to mandate that the president would support uh, gay marriage, which should have been supported decades ago. What can we do to cultivate political power in LGBT Q. I a black LGBT key, a white Latin X where that is such a powerful voting black and a civic block that is talking about radical public policy transformations at the local, at the state, at the federal level to the point death. No one can ignore that group, and no one dares to try to pass transphobic and homophobic and anti queer Policy agenda is connected to bathrooms connected to schools just connected to any single fabric of our lives in our society. What can be done on that score?

[0:24:34 Robert Martin] Well, first and foremost, we have to find folks who are willing to run for public office were willing to run for, you know, the town council to start with and then mayorships and then state senators and so on and so forth. And that’s problematic in and of itself, cause you don’t want to voice the responsibility on folks who are already fighting, and we’re already tired already have been doing this for us, he said. Decades right s. So how do we create a powerful platform enough that people cannot deny? And I think it’s what we’ve seen over the past two months what we’ve seen. You can’t deny it has to be out on the streets every day, and that’s that’s the reason that where you and I have difference of language, where you say, you know, it’s already a movement and it is it is already moving, obviously, and it’s been a movement not only four years, but for decades. But how do we create that movement and make it more of a nationally recognized and put on a national platform? And I think the way we do that is many fold is by making sure that we are never not seen that were always seen. Whether it’s someone like Ah Jenness at Gutierrez from the La Familia, the Trans Liberation Clear Movement who, um for lack of better term heckled President Obama at a press conference as he was talking about, um, DACA and dreamers and how we help our immigrant families. And she said, What about our clear families? What about our Trans families? And she was able to have her voice hurt. We need to make sure that we’re in the places where voices can be heard where we can be seen. And maybe it’s first as, um, a rally, a protest and, if need be an uprising. But then make sure that we are on the other side of it. Then we’re the ones at the podium on the mic with the power. And it’s gonna take time is gonna take efforts, that energy and all our parts. It’s gonna take support from our white allies from our CIS gender allies from our straight allies. But it’s also take time and effort from the communities where these voices need to come from.

[0:27:00 Peniel Joseph] All right, my, my, my last question, But this you can take your time answering this, um, is really connected to Where do we go from here? You’ve been alluding to that. But I’m thinking in five years what will we have wanted to see changed and transformed, and not just in terms of elections and politics, but just in terms of culture and resource is within black LGBT Q. I communities, but really across the United States and across the world, when we think about how much these issues intersect, how much people’s lives intersect? When will we have known? We’ve made some really measurable progress, and I’m thinking both nationally but also the Rustin Center thinking about the metrics. Whether you’re thinking about is this resource is and fundraising. Is that outreach? The number of people you’re reaching both in terms of you, as as the chief activists there, but also in terms of the center. Um What? What? What will be our Our evidence that this really is a movement and not just the moment of massive political mobilization for freedom and citizenship? Um, for black lives matter, really, This idea of centering black LGBT Cuba. And one thing I should note everyone. Is that a movement for black lives? The policy agenda does a beautiful job, really centering black l LGBT Q I A communities and their issues as part of that black last matter agenda.

[0:28:39 Robert Martin] Yeah, that’s a beautiful thing. And one that that we can take, um, great lessons from right that we cannot wait for things to be palatable. We cannot wait for things to be acceptable. You know, our nation has, ah dark problem at a history with politicians and with folks in various communities waiting for things to be popular and not moving forward on essential things that will help all of our communities. I think it’s it’s finally a recognition that when one group moves forward, we all move forward you know when you go all the way back to the women’s movement. You know, when they had their first women’s conference and there was a huge debate and argument about, um, a platform for our lesbian sisters and allowing that voice we heard and there was tremendous blowback about that. And we have to stop that kind of in fighting that kind of lack of recognition of all of our communities, how we all are again. We go back to the intersectionality of it all. And intersectional is not only about the women’s movement recognizing their lesbian voices, it’s not about black lives matter reparative, representing the clear. Clearly it’s about at our dinner table and realizing who is sitting amongst us and you know where the people of color where you are. Black and brown friends. Where do our LGBTQ wife friends, Where do our non binary friends where do our etcetera, etcetera, folks who need to be seen? And how do we get people not only on a political level, not only on a national level, but as you said this a worldwide movement. Now we have folks in other countries having black lives matter rallies, having vigils for George Floyd. It’s an amazing moment, and it needs to be crystallized and move forward in a way that’s not just about slogans or logo’s or what companies are going. T o promote their voice by having their faces or their names smacked on something that will take advantage. But how do we make sure they are, um, accountable for their practices? How many folks in their executive branch are black or brown? Are clear? Are non binary? How are they hearing the voices that need to be heard? Because that’s the only way it happens. If the authentic voices air there in those boardrooms in those offices, in those political arenas in the Statehouse, in the farm, the federal level, but also, you know, as we defund the police, how do we find those voices? A place in the community to make sure they’re heard as well. You know, we’ve talked about this when there is someone who is having a psychological emotional issue, and how incredible would it be that it’s not? A police officer should close police officer shows up to that event, but mental health professional, a therapist, and if they are a person of color How great it would be for a black or brown person to show up. And if they are clear individual, how great would it be for someone from the LGBTQ white community to show up? How do we put those platforms in place to make sure that we are ready when people say, What are we gonna do? This is what we’re gonna do. This is the way forward. So not only do we elect people to office that represent the true nature of our country and who we are, But how do we get people on the ground level, as we like to say, boots and around, How do we get boots on the ground of the people are really gonna go out and represent and be able to authentically passionately in power and vocalize for all our communities?

[0:32:59 Peniel Joseph] All right, that is a great, eloquent way to end. And this podcast on a note of hope. We’ve been talking with Robert Martin’s data Schreiber, who is the chief activist of really one most important social justice organizations. That is around right now in the United States. The buyer Rustin Center for Social Justice. They have a great social justice. Power Our That’s on weeknights from 7 to 8 p.m. Eastern standard time. Um, Robert Barton is an extraordinary activist Social justice. Civil rights leader. Um, anti racist LGBT Q I a pro black lives matter activists who’s really interested in intersectional justice. And so we’re definitely honored to have him here with us today. And I think we all have this generational opportunity to transform American democracy at this point in history. Um, to achieve our country, I think that we should all know fired Rustin is we should read about him and understand his legacy and how important his legacy is to the time period that we’re all in now. So Robert Martin Zeta Schreiber, chief activists for the buyer Rustin Center for Social Justice. Thank you so much for joining our program today.

[0:34:23 Robert Martin] Thank you, my friend. I just want to say that, um, you and your work has been such inspiration for us. And, uh, the newest book, Sword in the Shield, is just such an incredible testament to what we can look to our history. Um, to enlighten, empower our future. So thank you for that gift to our community as well

[0:34:49 Peniel Joseph] thank you.

[Narration] Thanks for listening to this episode. And you can check out related content on Twitter at Peniel Joseph. That’s P E N I E L J O S E P H and our website CS rd dot LBJ That you, Texas that e d u and the Center for Study of Race and Democracy is on Facebook as well. This podcast was recorded at the liberal Arts Development Studio at the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. Thank you