From a Great Society to a Resilient Society: Episode 3 – Impact of COVID-19 on Society’s Vulnerable

[0:00:00 Speaker 2] So in this installment of the LBJ Resiliency podcast were exploring the impact of covert on vulnerable populations. Joining us for this today’s conversation is immigration policy expert Ruth Wasserman. Professor Wasserman welcome.

[0:00:14 Speaker 0] Glad to be here.

[0:00:15 Speaker 2] And Michelle Diets professor at the LBJ School and the UT Law School. A criminal justice expert. Michele, Welcome.

[0:00:22 Speaker 1] Thank you so much for having me, Stephen.

[0:00:24 Speaker 2] So I want to start with immigration, so Ruth will start with you. Um, in what ways Has co vid altered three U. S. Immigration policies?

[0:00:33 Speaker 0] Well, it’s all altered it in several ways. Uh, first off, there are travel restrictions. So anyone who has traveled in China, Iran, um, the EU countries, United Kingdom, Brazil and South Africa, for example um are barred from coming to the United States unless there there are exceptions for us citizens and and others. But generally speaking, it has curtailed travel to the United States. But what I find particularly, uh, significant is, um, the Way cove it has impacted our view of immigrants who work in the central jobs. And those are jobs deemed essential by the Department of Homeland Security Critical infrastructure, jobs where they were expected to keep working through this co vid pandemic

[0:01:31 Speaker 2] and and and one of the things that a lot of folks you’re saying well is how are we supporting our immigrants in those jobs? If the expectation is that they’re going to continue to work those jobs, you know, Are we doing enough to support those immigrants? Should we be doing mawr?

[0:01:46 Speaker 0] Well, um, they are much more likely than than us born people toe work in critical infrastructure. And, um, they are overwhelmingly in two sectors the health care industry and the food supply chain. And where the difficulty comes in is, um, there also, um, most likely to be unauthorized immigrant workers, so ah, population that would otherwise have been quite vulnerable. Thio removal, deportation from the country are actually performing critical jobs essential for us. Thio conduct our our lives during the pandemic. Um, and so they have become, ah, particular focal point because in the early legislation, the first wave of the Cares Act. Um, if any member of of a household was an unauthorized resident, that household was barred from receiving a check. Um, now, that was not true in the second round of aid, but the and the other aspect that makes it particularly difficult for immigrant populations is that they are less likely to have access to health care. So they’re a particularly vulnerable population in that they are in jobs that are essential, that they be out and about and working. And yet they’re less likely to have access to health care.

[0:03:28 Speaker 2] Yeah, in an earlier podcast, we spoke with a professor Michael Whole, um, LBJ school school professor and also at U T Medical School. Tell medical school and we were talking about this question of, of, of providing better protections from some of our most vulnerable populations. And he illustrated The same point is that many of our immigrants are out on the front lines, but maybe not getting the support that’s needed to sort of think about how we can support them going forward. Michelle, I want to move Thio our correction system here, and you’re you’re one of the world, one of the country’s leading experts, really on this and and so you’ve done a lot of interviews and discussion points about the impact of Cove it and I was hoping that you could tell us a little bit more about why prisons and jails are maybe because of this pandemic, kind of failing to to satisfy their public safety mission. Perhaps,

[0:04:20 Speaker 1] Um, I think that’s exactly the way Thio frame it. Stephen. They are failing at their most fundamental public safety task because they’re not keeping people safe. Prisons and jails are Petri dishes for the spread of the virus. And yet people who are incarcerated are getting infected and dying at unprecedented rates, um, prisons and jails or some of the most, uh, troubling hotspots in the country right now. It’s not only incarcerated people, it’s also staff were getting infected and dying it crazy. High rates. We’re seeing the virus spread into the nearby communities, so they’re very porous institutions. Eso We’re not even keeping the areas around the prisons and jails safe. Beyond that, the restrictions due to the, uh, Covic have led to the suspension of visitation programs and rehabilitative programs in many cases, and that means that people are far less likely to have a successful reentry. We’re going to see higher recidivism rates as a result, not to mention that all the isolation the lockdowns inside are leading to a lot of tension and potential violence.

[0:05:35 Speaker 2] So a lot of the wraparound services that sometimes we would think that would be present. And our correction systems are unfortunately absent during this period. And you sort of see that there’s a potential impact your for that as we look to the future,

[0:05:47 Speaker 1] absolutely. Although I think it’s generous to think that there’s any kind of wrap around services going on in our prisons and jails.

[0:05:53 Speaker 2] Sure, sure, sure education, those types of things. Perhaps, Um, so what would be some suggested recommendations that you’d have to say if we were looking to the future that we could, we could sort of right this ship. Are there things that we could do in the short term? We’ll talk about long term, but in the short term, to ensure that were ableto to really move on our public safety agenda and our correction system.

[0:06:15 Speaker 1] Well, one of the things that every expert has said is that we have got to be depopulating our facilities. We’ve they’re very densely populated spaces. It and people can’t socially distanced. So we have to reduce the population ships of prisons and jails. Um, one of the big lessons here is that we’re locking up far too many people for far too long and thes punitive policies were standing in the way of much more appropriate, thoughtful and cost effective measures that can save lives. We also have to be doing a lot more to get, um, hygiene and cleaning supplies

[0:06:51 Speaker 0] and PPE in

[0:06:52 Speaker 1] the hands of the people who need them. Onda. We need to be figuring out ways that we can prevent the spread of the virus within prisons and jails without further harming people inside by restricting all of their movement and activities.

[0:07:09 Speaker 2] Right? So one of the solutions that a lot of folks who say well, just restrict, restrict, restrict and what what a lot of advocates like you’re saying is yourself is saying that’s gonna have really long term detrimental affect on many of many of the folks there in those facilities

[0:07:23 Speaker 1] in so many ways, not to mention 11 thing that’s not being talked about much is the mental health impact of a lot of those restrictions.

[0:07:31 Speaker 2] Yeah, for sure. So, Ruth, you and your students have done a lot on looking about how cities converter support immigrants. Um, I’m not particularly related to Kobe. But just generally speaking about sort of ensuring that immigrants are assimilated better in communities. Are there lessons learned from some of the research that you’ve done with your students? That you would suggest that we could point to two or three ideas for how we can better support immigrant populations now within the age of cove? It knowing that, as you suggested earlier, many of these residents are on the front line?

[0:08:05 Speaker 0] Well, what are the things that that we’ve learned? And we’ve been doing work? We did a big report that came out last summer on Immigrant Inc in the city of Dallas, and we’re doing work now with the city of San Antonio in the city of Boston looking at, um, the extent to which thes cities are welcoming communities and and comparing them with cities that are are statistically similar to them on on demographic and economic traits. And, um, we have found some best practices, particularly, um, in terms of co vid, because that is an area that cities realize, uh, that they need to do extra outreach, uh, thio immigrant populations to make sure that they’re, uh, getting, uh, access to what they need for the public health consequences of Cove it eso we’re finding that some cities are are are being more aggressive on this or have developed better techniques and networks, uh, to make sure that immigrants are included in, uh, the co vid, um, pandemic service providing, um, and but on a broader level, we’re finding that in areas where, um, you incorporate immigrants fully into the community, you usually do that. The areas where you need it most is, um, is in job creation. Um, and immigrants really fuel economic growth. And so, um, that and they go in and they re populate, uh, emptying neighborhoods, reopen storefront businesses and, um, and are critical in starting new businesses. And and, of course, immigrants have considerable uh um, power spending power is consumers. So there’s no question that immigration, um, revitalizes urban areas and the kinds of policies a city would do. Um, that helps immigrants actually helps everybody. It’s it’s It’s not that you really need to target, uh, specific populations as much as just good policies about job creation and economic growth. All boats rise when you do that.

[0:10:29 Speaker 2] So Ruth is there. Is there a city across the country that you would point to as a best practice or an example that’s having riel success in this area.

[0:10:38 Speaker 0] Um, it really hinges on what criteria you’re taking a look at because a lot of the cities have, um, one of the things this is going to get into the weeds, so I don’t want to go there. But a lot of it hinges on what you’re looking at. How you calculated so sometimes cities that have experienced the most economic decline in recent years. Our, uh, doing their the most aggressive and assertive at doing the kinds of of, uh, innovation and job creation, uh, that help immigrants as well as other residents. So their numbers, they look much higher even though, um, they’re starting from a lower place. Eso I’m, uh, in some of our work. We we talk about that. It’s all relative. It’s all relative and and how it plays out. And we look at a variety of different factors. Eso there’s, uh There’s no one city that I would point to it this point.

[0:11:42 Speaker 2] Yeah, that’s great. No, I know that much of my work is booked at distressed urban areas and we know that policies that are surrounding the support of immigrants are a great what great way to start to revitalize neighborhoods. But you’re right. There continues to be sort of mixed a research on the impact that we start to see across the country.

[0:12:00 Speaker 0] It’s a measurement issue. Really, Stephen, Because a lot of it has to do in some cities, like you could look at Seattle and they have a wonderful set of services. Um, and, uh and, uh, and, uh, Madison, Wisconsin. Uh, and, uh, Minneapolis ST Paul. You know, there’s some Newark, New Jersey has done a lot of Philadelphia has done a lot. Um, were, you know, taking a look at Atlanta. Um, as well as, you know, cities that are similar and and again in Texas. We’re looking at Dallas and Houston and San Antonio and Austin on in, um, different cities have their strengths. Um, eso when you look, uh, and it hinges on what the job opportunities are in that city and where the growth areas are. Um

[0:12:51 Speaker 2] yep. So, Michelle, I wanna, you know, same sort of vein of conversation really around Best practices. Is there a state? Um, you know facility. Perhaps that is doing good work around around, sort of helping to help their facilities adjust to the age of Kobe. Is there any best practices that we could point to?

[0:13:12 Speaker 1] Well, there are pockets of good things happening in lots of places, but the fact is that everywhere in the country has been hit really, really hard by cove, it and its prisons and jails. But there are lessons that we’ve learned from this that really should guide us as we look to the future. Um, first, as I was mentioning before, we’ve got to get we have to reduce our prison and jail population. We incarcerate far too many people in this country. We can avoid a lot of that unnecessary incarceration not only because of viruses, but also because the incarceration experience harms the people who are there. Um, it traumatizes them. People are coming out worse from their incarceration experience, so we need to get those numbers down. We also need to be looking at prison in jail through a public health lens, and we need to be investing in social safety nets in our communities so that we don’t look to prisons and jails to fill the gap. Um, we need to be looking at ways to improve conditions in prisons and jails, weaken build in efforts at, um, enhancing wellness and teaching resiliency and reducing the harm that people are experiencing. We could be strengthening the relationships between people who are incarcerated and their family members so that they have, uh, bonds and a community to go home to. We could be looking at ways to deliver more programs to people who are incarcerated and maybe using technology to help do that. And finally, we need to be looking at ways to enhance the transparency of our prisons and jails. They’re among the most closed institutions in our society. We don’t know what’s going on behind the razor wire fences and the walls and shining a light on what’s going on inside is going to teach us all a lot more about how problematic those current conditions are and the ways that we can share best practices to improve the conditions for both people who live there and the people who work there.

[0:15:17 Speaker 2] That’s great. So I want to just sort of continue this conversation a bit and look to the future and particularly with an eye towards our new administration, the new Biden administration. And so roots will start with you on immigration. Um, you know, how will the Bidens administration’s proposed changes to immigration and law um, you know, have impact on some of the challenges that you’ve outlined in this discussion?

[0:15:39 Speaker 0] Well, they could have a substantial impact on on immigrant essential workers and all immigrants in the United States. Um, there’s a lot he’s doing by executive order. But that’s essentially, um um, trying to mitigate, um, the policies of the Trump administration and rolling back some of them or, uh, extreme policies that the previous administration has. But one of the first pieces of legislation Hey, did it. His first day in office that he sent to Congress was an overhaul of immigration that included status adjustment for close to 11 million, um, foreign nationals in the United States out of status. Um, I like to point out that half of those people are working as essential workers in the United States. Um And so while, um on and one of the things that you’ve got a bear in mind about, um, if we do proceed with a legalization program. Um, for these people who have been living and working in the United States and they will go through background checks and things like that, a lot of the problems that have plagued immigrant, uh, immigration as a system, um, as well as, um, the community relations pretty much disappear because when we think of all the problems that we’ve had with with ice Immigration and Customs Enforcement, um, and the detention centers and, um the removals and deportations and family separation when you neutralize and suddenly, um, individuals are no longer considered on I you know, I’m doing air quotes as illegals because that’s a pejorative term. But if they’re fully incorporated into the to the country where they’ve been living and working for years, um then, ah, lot of these enforcement problems go away. It also means that because they will be able thio thio be open and active, um, the barriers to community services and particularly, uh, health care. Um, those will also fall away eso they’ll be ableto fully access everything our cities and communities have to offer. Um and, uh, again, most of them we know have been paying taxes for years. Eso We’ve been getting a lot of of of tax money, um, from this population without providing them with anything. So there will be, uh, if this if the law eyes enacted, um, there will be ah ah, certain equilibrium we will reach and and And their prosperity and and potential can be can be more fully realized. But from a policy maker’s point of view, I want to point out a dilemma. And that dilemma is there. It would be broad support to allow essential workers, um, to adjust their status. But what about the all the others? And this is the political tension that we face. Do we cherry pick and say, Well, yes, essential workers and leave other people behind. Or do we? And what the Biden Administration has said, we’re going to treat, uh, tweet them equally on, um, bring them into full Inc, um, in as lawful permanent residents of the United States. But it’s it’s not. It’s gonna be a very heavy legislative lift for such a bill to get through the Congress.

[0:19:42 Speaker 2] That’s what I was gonna ask you, Ruth. What was the possibility of this getting through getting through the Congress and getting to the president’s desk. Actually,

[0:19:49 Speaker 0] Well, you know, I was originally optimistic because immigration is a, uh, something that is historically bipartisan. And in fact, I was in an earlier podcast a few weeks ago where I said, there are two things Uh, the Biden cares about that are bipartisan, and I think will happen. And that was infrastructure and immigration. Um, and I particularly thought that the visceral reaction so many people, almost every American had, um, toe what? The siege in the U. S. Capitol on January 6 would cause people toe to turn the heat down and try toe thio. Um, retreat from the xenophobic and anti immigrant rhetoric that we’ve been we’ve been hearing for the last few years. And working on a bipartisan immigration bill is a wonderful way to do that. Um, and there are people in both chambers, but particularly in the senate, um, that have worked on bipartisan immigration proposals in the past. So the table is set, but the current political climate, um um right now is not as optimistic as I had hoped it would be.

[0:21:10 Speaker 2] Yeah. I think that a lot of folks are sort of echoing your sentiment to. And hopefully, hopefully, though, there is a way to get to some sort of, um, possible agreement and deal that can through Congress that could get to the president’s desk. Michelle, Same question for you looking at our criminal justice system. You know, if you are advising the Biden administration on, you know, potential proposed changes, um, to the system and understanding that much of this is state oriented as well. Any thoughts or recommendations that you have building off of your earlier comments?

[0:21:40 Speaker 1] Sure. Um and I think the last point you made is exactly right. Yes, there are things that the Biden administration can and should be doing. But we have to remember that criminal justice is primarily a state and local issue. Our prisons are run by the states, with the exception of the federal system jails, air typically run by local governments. And if we wanna have a true impact on the system, we’ve got to be focusing on our state legislatures and local officials. Um, that said, the Biden administration can certainly be, um I, uh, doing more than just signaling

[0:22:15 Speaker 0] it could use grant

[0:22:16 Speaker 1] money to encourage the states to move in a certain direction it could be directing them to, uh, implement certain policies. You know, mass incarceration didn’t just spring up out of nowhere. Among other things, the federal government funded the states to build up its prison system. Um, and we could do a lot to reverse it in the same way I’d also really like to see through the Biden administration encouraged states to develop independent oversight bodies for prisons and jails to help improve transparency and conditions in those facilities.

[0:22:54 Speaker 2] That’s great. Um, Michelle Ruth, thanks for joining us. I love for you to tell us a little bit more where folks confined your work. Ruth, Working folks find more about your terrific work

[0:23:04 Speaker 0] that you’re doing at the LBJ School. Well, you can always go to the LBJ School website on. There is ah, Page, um, with my what I’m up to in terms of research and writing and what my students are doing under my bio eso that’s probably the best single stop to find out what I’m up to.

[0:23:26 Speaker 2] It’s great. And Michelle,

[0:23:28 Speaker 1] uh, for me to the LBJ School website would be the best place to find me. But I am a new user of Twitter, And, uh, if anyone wants to follow me there it My handle is m y d e I t c h. And you could also look for my new report on covert and corrections, a profile of covert deaths in custody in Texas And that came out in November and has a lot of really shocking statistics about what’s happening on this front.

[0:24:00 Speaker 2] Great, My friends, Thanks for joining us for this podcast. We really appreciate it.

[0:24:03 Speaker 1] Thank you so much, Stephen.

[0:24:05 Speaker 0] Thank you for the opportunity.

[0:24:08 Speaker 1] Okay, guys, Thanks so much.

[0:24:09 Speaker 0] Great.

[0:24:10 Speaker 1] Thank you, Michelle. You to my gosh. I learned a lot from listening to you, Ruth. So thank you. And Stephen. Good questions. Thanks, guys. You all have a great video. Do you have any idea when it? Steve, do you have any idea when it’s gonna air?

[0:24:25 Speaker 2] Well, we’ve got six of them. I don’t know the order of them. You guys are the last one we recorded. But I don’t think it has to matter in the order that they’re going to go. I’m not. What’s our order plan? 24 weeks.

[0:24:41 Speaker 0] Yes. Yes. So we’re releasing them weekly Released one. This past week. Thank you. Late for your help with that originally? Because I was planning to release them in the order in which we did them. So this would be released in about a month. Did you have any concerns about dated content that we should consider? And push this way

[0:25:02 Speaker 2] may push this one up because these are two issues that are kind of front and center right now. I think so. Maybe we I think we want to do the public health one first. Maybe. Let’s do it this way. Let’s go. Um, this conversation, let’s go public health this conversation, public finance, and then we’ll go. We’ll close with the global development. What? I think.

[0:25:25 Speaker 0] Oh, yeah. You guys appreciate you moving us up because I’ve done a couple of podcasts that by the time they’re out, I already feel like what I’m talking about is upset. Exactly. God,

[0:25:38 Speaker 1] a change.

[0:25:40 Speaker 2] Yeah, well, hopefully it won’t. Hopefully, hopefully the news won’t go that crazy this week.

[0:25:45 Speaker 1] Oh, my

[0:25:46 Speaker 0] God. Okay,

[0:25:48 Speaker 1] take care. Thank

[0:25:49 Speaker 2] you. We’ll see you all on a Tuesday at the faculty meeting. I

[0:25:53 Speaker 1] get