Episode 7 – The LBJ School’s Don Kettl on the Future of Public Policy Schools

[0:00:00 Speaker 1] This’ll is Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. Way Take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it for more. Visit LBJ dot utexas Study. Teoh

[0:00:21 Speaker 2] Hello, my name is Angela Evans, and I’m the dean of the LBJ School, and I’m really pleased we’re back with another podcast in this time. I’m especially pleased because it’s an old buddy friend and a wonderful colleague of mine, Dr Don Cattle, who has joined the LBJ School. I’m so so pleased to have you here. It’s like a dream come true. A lot of ways

[0:00:39 Speaker 0] for me is, well, I’m just thrilled to have a

[0:00:41 Speaker 3] chance to be able to not only work with you but with the entire team here at the LBJ School. It’s just an outstanding group of faculty working on cutting edge issues, so there’s nothing I could wish for it to be better than that.

[0:00:52 Speaker 2] I think you done and on behalf of the school as well. So we’re really pleased, and the reason why we’re so excited is right now. The school is thinking about its 50th anniversary in two years, and when you think about any anniversary, it’s a celebration. But it’s also a retrospective like What have we done? What have we accomplished on what’s really coming up in the future is this is a very big year for us. And as we’ve talked his colleagues over the years of how do you take what’s knowledge that is created in the university created around in the private sector and move it so they have public policy makers, whether they’re people in the state, local or federal government, uh, actually can use that information and use their data and use it experience? How do we do that? And what’s the purpose of our public policy schools? What role do they play? So we’re very pivotal point in our history. That’s why I’m so excited, that tree at the school to help us think this thing through. So what? I’d like you to do just a little bit to talk to our listeners about where you see public policy schools in terms of their future role in in policy development and policy leadership.

[0:01:56 Speaker 0] Because one of things that I find fascinating now is that what really makes public policy distinctive,

[0:02:02 Speaker 3] is that it? In fact, as you just mentioned, it is engaged with real world

[0:02:06 Speaker 0] problems. It’s not simply just in effort to develop abstract principles or bits of knowledge that are really useful between pages of books. It’s useful only in way in which it could actually improve the lives of citizens. And that’s one of the things that really makes public policy distinctive and one of things that I find fascinating and talking to lots and lots and lots of practitioners that people out there making policy, trying to deliver policy, trying to work with citizens. Is that word a point now where some of these problems have never been more important, where mistakes that we make could ripple through society almost instantaneously, and where people who are out there trying to solve these problems are just starved for intellectual capital, for people can help them think through these issues, find new solutions but especially find a new generation of leaders who can come in and try to work with them to try to help attack these things. So the paradox probably is that the more complex these problems have gotten, the harder it is for them to solve. The more wicked the problems are, the better our position is in trying to help them do this and the more we and our students are needed. And so that’s what makes this such an important such a special time. And what creates an opportunity for real insights about how to do this better?

[0:03:21 Speaker 2] Yes, I think one of our challenges we talked about this earlier is that we’re preparing students and we have to prepare them for the future and some things that we aren’t even aware would happen. So it’s almost the unknown. How do we prepare students to have that basic skill set, that basic intellectual approach, that basic curiosity, the basic idea of how to take reveal problems and how did then take those problems that are complex and parse them in a way that you don’t lose the richness of that problem, But at the same time, you make it more of a problem that you can attack. So we talked a little bit about that and talk to, you know, talk to the listeners about some of your ideas of how we try to move in that direction,

[0:04:03 Speaker 3] too often. What worries me is that we’re trying to drive down the highway at 80 miles an hour but steering by looking the rear view mirror, and we can’t very well make sure we negotiate these curves. If we’re just looking backwards, we’ve got a ground

[0:04:16 Speaker 0] what it is that we know. And in fact, even the problems we try to solve by making sure that we understand what’s happening. But more

[0:04:23 Speaker 3] importantly, probably making sure that we create

[0:04:26 Speaker 0] students and a body of knowledge that is capable of trying to attack issues that either unpredictable in some ways or may not even exist. I think in many ways, our biggest problem. Our biggest challenge is the fact that probably at least half of our students, 5 to 10 years from now gonna be working problems that haven’t even been invented yet. So how do we try to make sure that we can do for society what it is that our students have got to be ableto new for all the rest of us? So how to do that? I think part of it is to expose students to cutting edge problems to essentially throw them out of the swimming pool but teach him how to swim along the way, getting them confidence they can in fact swimming make it to the other side. Given the kind of experience that they say. You know, I’ve quite seen this before, but I’ve got confidence that I can handle it. I know how to work with people and learn quickly to be able to catch up with problems we can teach them. In some ways I’ve seen this before, maybe not quite in this form, but it’s something that, in fact, I recognize there’s a body of knowledge where some problems have been around for maybe 2000 years or so. And if they keep coming back, the odds are they going to keep recurring over and over again. And there’s some bits of theory to on top of that that also provide a kind of framework for helping students understand what really is new and what isn’t and what it is we can learn from the past and how to adapt to this new things, and that provides the kind of framework that allow students toe attack these problems to solve them, to understand what’s new, what isn’t what they can contribute where they need help and with that kind of experience in the long run, really make the kind of things better for everybody, because what really makes public policy distinctive is not only trying to work with these issues that ripple across society, but to do it in a way that recognizes that is the public interest is the core of all this. It’s it’s not just a mechanistic effort, it’s It’s not just a way to try to maximize utility in different kinds of models, but to try to solve the things in a way that allow us allow our students to do so in a way that we always serves the public more broadly. And that’s what makes the the public and public policy is so important.

[0:06:35 Speaker 2] Yes, we’re talking about some of the challenges there because people the perception is that we become, ah, much more divided, that we don’t want to listen to people who have a difference of opinion than we do, or that people have opinion that is not based on fact. So one of the challenges we face, and one of the things that are absolutely critical to providing a really solid background to the students. To leave here is to understand that that’s not what they are. We don’t care about their opinions. Ah, what we want to do is make sure they understand how to formulate really sound information around something that they’re tackling, and they understand all sides to this. And so it seems that one of the one of the big challenges we have is sometimes their students come in and we have with a certain set of learning and a certain set of biases and perceptions have to break those down before we build up some of these other things. So I see this is a little different time in our history, at least with this generation that’s coming in without us a background or having experiences where educative kinds of experiences were more important than evocative kinds of experiences. So can you talk a little bit about how we’re going to try to meet those challenges here?

[0:07:45 Speaker 0] Sure, that’s and that’s so important, because there there was a time, maybe not so long ago, where the ideas you come in and we will give you the 10 rules, the five principles, the three tools, then you can then take out with you in the job, and that will give you what you need. But given the fact that so many problems now are so wicked and it’s so unpredictable and that the issues and the problems and the solutions air so interconnected, the real challenge is that it’s very hard to say here the 10 rules to follow and open up the textbook. It’s on page 47 go from there. So the problem is that you can’t do that. So how do you get at that? It turns out, on the other hand, given the fact that there’s often so much conflict and so much concern about fake news, so much concern about divisions in society. A way to try to get at this and the way that helps students is okay, let’s step back. What is the problem that we need to solve? Is there anybody here in the room opposed to having safe drinking water when you turn on the tap in the morning? Is there anybody who wants to make sure that the air traffic control system does not work? Anybody who is going over the age of 65 going to the hospital and is not going to get high quality health care and is not gonna have your your bills paid Anybody opposed to any of those kind of problems? Well, if you start with problems that we all recognize, problems that we agree have to be solved. One of the ways to try to break down the political barriers and to develop strategies at work is to understand the problems and then build coalitions to try to solve them and then bring in the tools, the understandings, the pieces that in fact, do that again with a frame that focuses on solutions for the public interest in all that. So what really makes this style of education distinctive is making it problem based, problem centred, solution driven. But doing it in a way that says we can provide a broader framework so that every time a student counters one of those problems, it’s not from scratch from the very first time. So we just don’t have time to wait for people to learn from scratch every time.

[0:09:41 Speaker 2] Yes, yeah, The other thing we have talked about two is when you’re working on a problem and you agree this is a problem. You’re gonna disagree on how you’re going to solve the problem. But one thing that you know, it’s very important for us who are in policy education is to help our students understand, even if you disagree on 99% of what you you stand for what you’re trying to do. If you confined at 1% where you can work together, they at 1% then opens the door to others because it helps you work together, understand each other, understand the pressures that are on people who have a different perspective than you do. Um, that’s really important. So there’s two things. One is that and the other thing is getting out of the building, gaining out of the educational cocoon and going out into the community and talking to people and meeting people and understanding people that you think you’re trying to help. And that’s another thing we’re talking about in terms of a different direction for us is focusing more on those slivers where where we conform coalitions and help those broaden out when she worked together and the other is really getting out on the street and where the rubber hits the road and finding people on that air and walking in their shoes. Eso talk a little bit about the line in terms of how we’ve discussed it

[0:10:55 Speaker 0] on both. Those things are important. The first is if it’s problem driven, then it’s a way to try to say Okay, we can build a consensus that there things that are important, that we need to get done. So how do we do that? And it turns out that there’s an underlying paradox of leadership here, which is that individual leaders have never been more important, the more complex the problems become. And the way to try to get after I learned how to do that is to go out and talk with the people who are involved in trying to do this. And that means being able to discuss issues with people and understand how he can find common ground. It’s developing trust in each other’s relationships, but just as importantly, is going out and actually touching the problems that you’re trying to solve. Be ableto to connect with the people who you’re trying to serve. It’s one thing to talk about a problem of homelessness from 50,000 feet and just looking down and saying, Well, here’s what I think ought to be done because here’s what my model say, as opposed to here it is about what’s really going on with the people who were on the streets here, the issues that they have to try to solve by talking to them, understanding their problems, understand what it is that they want, what is it’s going to help them. Then you’re most in a position to be able to develop solutions that are most likely to work and given the fact you’ve got problems that you want to try to solve and you’ve got issues that in fact you want to try to build a coalition for support, the more that you can understand how what you design is going to affect the people who deserve and need the help that you’re trying to provide, Then you’re gonna be much more effective. If you look at the opioid crisis, for example, everybody’s talking about we need to do something about this and people are throwing solutions around all over the place. To what degree have we gone out and really connected with the people who are struggling with the problems of opioid abuse, figuring out why it is that it happens and why it happens. Mawr in some places and others we have the opportunity here with a problem move that we all agree has to be solved, that we want to try to solve, to go solve it better if we could devise systems that connect better with the people who are struggling to try to escape the curse of opioid addiction. And so one of the things that we can do, I think, is to help frame the problems, provide students with a chance to have to think about it a framework about the public interest to drive them. But then get them out of the building. Talk to the people were doing it. Talk to me. We’re trying to solve it. Talk to the people who are partners and talk to the people. Ultimately are the ones we mostly to serve and find a way to connect a network that in fact links it all. And by doing that, that, in the end, is what’s gonna be most effective. And that’s part of this paradox of individual leadership. The more complex these problems are, the More important, it is to train students with the skills of leadership that can connect all the pieces together.

[0:13:36 Speaker 2] Yeah, that’s really I think that’s critical. And the other thing? I think it’s critical about what you said is that when you you have to understand the complexity. But we have to also help our students once they understand that to make it simple, not simple in a sense of a simple solution. But make it understandable and make it doable, because sometimes things can appear so complex that people say throw up their hands. Oh, my gosh, this involves everybody. There’s no way it could do this. I’m just I’m just a nonprofit who sits here and does this. Andi. I think that’s another important thing that we need to be doing as educators is having our students be comfortable with complexity and, you know, actually thrive in complexity and go to it and say, This is complex. I went in and understanding how they can overwhelm you, but how it can inform you. And I think that’s how our public policy education needs to evolve to make sure we have a lot of those kinds of experiences for our students. So that’s totally agree with you, Don. If we were to talk about what you think are you really worry about in terms of our policy education, what what do you worry about in terms of our that we might fail it, that we have an opportunity we’re not taking that were you know, we’re too lazy or you know what, what? What does what are some of the things that were you?

[0:14:54 Speaker 0] Yeah, and there’s stuff that worries me. This is all in the context of the fact that I’m really excited about the opportunity because I think we could be smart enough to solve some problems. But the problems are First, it’s it’s really easy to look to the future on the one hand, by trying to worry about only steering to the past. And if we don’t find a way to keep ourselves in the cutting edge, we could be really good at solving last year’s problems and missed the ability to be able to get on top of this one. There are some things that I think in terms of skills that students need to learn more of that we need to figure out how to do better. One of them is good people management. One of the paradoxes is that, as we mentioned, the more complex problems get, the more important individual leaders are. And we don’t spend nearly enough time trying to get the right people with the right skills and the right jobs. I talked to a friend of mine who used to run a major private company, and he said, If you’re not spending at least 50% of your time managing people, figuring out how to get your people motivated, do the job, you gonna fail in the private sector. This is a lesson we have learnt from the private sector. And so that’s one thing the government ought to do better. And then you were talking about this process of trying to understand complexity. And I think there are ways that we can find out of complexity away. To try toe Boyle stories down boiled data down in a way that make clear, simple, convincing strategies for enlisting people in the cause to get the problem solved. And we too often I think, find as we have data that a more complex we have data analysis that is equally complex and sometimes Impenetrable from people from the outside. The reality is that people in the policy world, especially policymakers, live off stories, live off narratives. And question is, What’s the story here? Why should I solve a problem? How can I solve it? What’s the story? That doesn’t mean being sloppy or loose, yes, or in some ways, an exact. But it means, in some ways being mawr careful, more precise and mawr able to be able to take the core problems and ideas and boil them down in a way that’s even more persuasive because the mawr noisy the environment is, and the more information there is, the more people are saying, What’s going on here? And what inside can I have that will give me the way to be able to cut through all of what’s going on so I can get something that in fact will help me toe drive toward a solution? And so there’s a way to try to take complex data and to reduce it to stories that are persuasive. It’s being able to understand what’s hiding underneath, to be able to unpack that, to be able to understand the real meaning of things and is being able to lead by creating a vision for people about the direction in which we need to go and why. And so there are things that

[0:17:47 Speaker 2] small charge right

[0:17:48 Speaker 0] charge. But it’s what are things when I’m struck by is there are people who do it and people do it well on the people who do it well with the leaders to make a difference. And I’m convinced our students can learn how to do that. And they’re things we can do. But it involves not lecturing them. But giving them experienced exposed him to a wide range of things, teaching them how to absorb some some bruises and bumps along the way so they can be resilient and bounce back. But with all that could bring a kind of crystal clear vision about where it is that they want to go, because one of the things that I’m struck by with this generation of students in particular is that they want to make a difference. Yes, and so one of things we could do is help them to try to figure out exactly how that works.

[0:18:31 Speaker 2] Yeah, the raw material and the passion is there. It’s how we give them the tools. And the other thing is how we put them in front of people who have been exempt exemplars of this type of leadership and oftentimes there, behind the scenes there, not the people that are in the spotlight, that around the news that have, you know, microphones pushed in their faces. Those are people who they saw situation, they get called on and their leadership just blossomed and they were able to take care of things. And those are things to I think when we’re talking about public policy, education is exposing students to those kinds of people. Not that they say we want you to be exactly like him or her, but look what they that person did in a particular situation. They were ready and they stepped in. So those are other things that I would like us to, you know, doom or in our policy, education is bringing people in to talk about their experiences and how are students can learn from what they learned their mistakes, things that they were successful on, how they saw a problem, how they parse that problem. That’s gonna be very

[0:19:30 Speaker 6] important part of our

[0:19:31 Speaker 2] program of how we bring the right kind of people in it the right time with the right problem, right?

[0:19:36 Speaker 0] And the advantage here is that it tells students women, I want to make a difference, but I don’t have to be elected to the highest office in the land to be able to do that. There are amazing people out there doing amazing things. It’s possible to do amazing things, so you don’t need to be cynical. I could be like this amazing people because I can imagine myself sitting in that chair doing that. For me to be able to do that, I can learn from them about what it is that those people did. Well, yes, and what people, maybe not so much did. Well, yes, and it’s Aiken. Learn how to try to prepare myself to be able to assume that kind of job, because I know it’s important and doable, and I can imagine myself doing it. And one of things that we can very usefully do is to connect students with people who have already figured out how to do that at least most of the time, and so our students can learn how to do it faster. How they could do it better, how they could do with fewer mistakes, because one of the things that is the reality of a world that’s moving so fast is that it’s not very patient with the government that doesn’t keep up, and so we can help our students learn how to lace on the track shoes and able to keep up with the world that they’re trying to help.

[0:20:47 Speaker 2] Yes, and I think you you mentioned something that’s really important and thats failure. You know, people. That seems like a bad word, you know, like Oh, it’s terrible, you feel. But it isn’t a failure is it’s an action. It’s a result of any action. So we have to help our students understand that they will feel there will be failures. But how do you learn from those? And if you don’t try, you’re not gonna fails. Like, um, you know, that’s erasers on pencils. I’m dating myself. But you know, if you’re writing, you have an eraser because you’ve actually taken the step to right? And so that’s the other thing is making them comfortable, cause so much is expected of the students that come that they have to be, like, all knowledgeable, perfect. They have to have the right solution. They know everything. It’s like, No, you don’t number one number two. So take a chill pill number to be a little bit humble and number three, we’re gonna put you in situations where you don’t succeed so that you know you can survive and learn from that. That’s a really important part of providing, Ah, policy education for our students.

[0:21:42 Speaker 0] There are some really interesting things that can be done not only to figure out how to learn, which is based on the premise that you gotta learn, could you don’t know it all. None of us do. None of us get it right all the time. We all make mistakes. It’s not avoiding the mistakes, but it’s anticipating what mistakes you most need to try to avoid. That’s one thing we could do. What what kinds of things have we drifted into in the past that he said, You know, if we thought about that little bit more, we could have avoided the risk of exposing kids and friend Michigan to lead in the drinking water. We could have thought about that. We could have understood how to try to avoid that kind of a problem. So there’s a part of that we can teach our students about. There’s when problems come, come up. How can we try to bounce back more quickly? So it’s which problems are the most important ones, too, to avoid when problems come up, How can we try to learn most quickly? How can we make sure we don’t repeat them? And how can we speed up the process of keeping up with the fast changing future? I’m And this is where exposing ourselves to people and our students to people struggled with these issues. There’s a fascinating story about the Coast Guard that evolved from the problem of the Exxon Valdez, which was in Alaska on enormous oil spill, which showed just how unprepared the Coast Guard was for the challenges and the problems off a major crisis.

[0:23:01 Speaker 5] That, in the end,

[0:23:02 Speaker 0] because of what amounted to a failure there, led to an enormous success as the Coast Guard led the effort to try to help. No one has recover from Hurricane Katrina. Yes, so it turns out that not only can you do your best to try to avoid problems. But if you’re really smart, you could figure out how to learn so that when the next problem comes, your even better prepared, it could help people learn even more quickly,

[0:23:21 Speaker 2] right? And you get down to the fundamentals. You know, you don’t get caught up in the details. You think about what were the what was the essence of this problem. Where were the s s essence of the processes

[0:23:30 Speaker 7] as the essence

[0:23:31 Speaker 2] of communication among those that were involved And then take that and transfer that so every experience doesn’t have to be a brand new experience. You start having that sort of muscle memory off making mistakes and how that worked, so that when it’s time you have enough, you have enough strength and in convictions in your own knowledge and expertise, to be able to step up and try, you know, just step up and get in there. That’s really where it’s really important that our students feel that way

[0:24:00 Speaker 0] and one of things that’s that’s fascinating is that their new problems that pop up all the time. But if you stop and think carefully, many problems that seem, knew, at least have hints and reflections of things. And what that tells us is if the problems have been going on for a long time, I can understand that I understand why it’s a problem. What’s worked in the past. What hasn’t gives me some instinct. So I’m not starting from scratch. Some bits of theory that tell us about what kinds of strategies and approaches, the more likely to work and which ones won’t that tells us what it is that we need to know. It tells us that we’re going to try to reorganize an agency, work in the federal government. You probably ought to look at which congressional committees have jurisdictions, because you can plot the battle lines that will be joined. Why? Because we’ve seen that in the past

[0:24:44 Speaker 2] there understand that reorganization isn’t always the first choice, right?

[0:24:48 Speaker 0] So you know that sometime reorganize, it hasn’t always worked. Yes, so by understanding history, understanding theory, it helps provide a structure for walking into new things that you’ve never seen before and not starting from scratch. But then, by learning what is it works that gives you wave for those of us who are scholars to improve on theory, to improve on history, to improve on our education and to make the next set of problems, we have to try to face and deal with problems that we can solve that much more quickly.

[0:25:17 Speaker 2] Well, this is like, this is why I am so excited. Everybody’s listening to this podcast. I mean, he having this dialogue Ah, with such substance and passion and drive and commitment really makes me feel really great about where public policy schools are going in the future and how our school can help continue this dialogue. And I’m so pleased, Don, that you’re gonna be joining us and be one of us to help lead

[0:25:41 Speaker 7] us through this

[0:25:42 Speaker 2] really important time. Very important time in our history is public policy schools. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[0:25:48 Speaker 0] Well of I am filled with this and I will tell you one can look at all the battles over fake news. And what could we possibly know about anything? I look at the battles and concerns that were tearing ourselves apart on important issues, all which is really important problems. But at the bottom of all this, what I’m really excited about is that there are big problems that we know we need to solve, and I see people every day who are doing a pretty good job solving them. We’ve got students who want to be able to step into their shoes and be able to do it, and I have confidence that we can help them do it better. And if we do, we’ll all be better off. And there’s probably no more noble mission that those of us in higher education and in public policy could want. Which is why I’m so thrilled to have a chance to be able to join everybody here at the LBJ School to take part in that.

[0:26:32 Speaker 2] Thank you so much done. We really appreciate it and thank you for tuning in. Don’t forget to subscribe to policy and purpose on iTunes, stitcher or Google play. Thanks again. Bye bye,

[0:26:44 Speaker 1] Thistles. Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. We take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it. To learn more, visit LBJ dot utexas dot edu and follow us on Twitter or Facebook at the LBJ School. Thank you for