Episode 17 – Developments in technology and its influences on national security and intelligence

[0:00:00 Speaker 1] This’ll is Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. Way Take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it. For more. Visit LBJ dot utexas Study. Teoh.

[0:00:20 Speaker 2] Hello, everyone. This is Angela Evans, dean of the LBJ School, and this is policy on purpose and other podcasts where were interviewing really amazing people who spent their careers in public service and working for the public? Good. And I am so, so pleased they have Susan Gordon with me today. An amazing woman. I just met her a few minutes ago, and I feel like I’ve known her sister a long time exactly. And Susan holds a very, very critical position in our government. She’s the principal deputy director of national intelligence, and in the at position, she is responsible for coordinating all of the intelligence in the United States that’s gathered end abroad to ensure now read you the mission. The mission is her mission is to lead intelligence, integration and forge in intelligence community that delivers the most insightful intelligence possible. So think about that. I mean, when you’re starting to think about not only lofty goals, but really critical goals. This is so fundamental to what we do is a government innocent people. So I’m so happy to have you here soon.

[0:01:27 Speaker 0] I’m delighted to be here, and so thanks for having me

[0:01:30 Speaker 2] good. I’m just I can’t wait to get this going. So when I was thinking about this, you’re very innovative. You’ve done a lot of innovative things even 20 years ago when you started to think about how you can get government toe work with business and how to create energy and new ideas. So you’ve been able to thread the needle between government and the private sector Very well. And at a time now, we’re sort of into Do we really trust government? Do we really trust the private sector, especially in intelligence? Talk to me a little bit about what you’ve seen as changes over those years that you’ve been trying to do this in an innovative way. What are some of the tensions that you constantly keep running up against

[0:02:11 Speaker 0] eso? First, I think I’m purposely obtuse. Um, in that I only care about getting the job done. Um so I think that’s always led me. Teoh, look at partnership and public. Private partnership is one of my favorite. I think if you look at government in the private sector in the national security arena kind of had an arc. If you think about it. During World War Two, when the FFR DC’s, the federally funded research and development centers were really coming into being, our idea of that was we needed to get private sector talent and hold it for government use. So bring it into an entity and have it available. Then you get to the 19 seventies and skunk works where we really need to be innovative from what we were building and the private sector was really good at that. So we held the intellectual property, but the private sector came up with solutions to it. Then we move into the into the information age, and we have this burgeoning energy out of Silicon Valley and the private sector and information, and they didn’t want to give it a their intellectual property away. But we still needed their energy to combine with our deeper property pockets and purpose. And so in Kyoto was born in, the idea was okay, they’re gonna hold the intellectual property. And what the government is going to dio is keep ideas around long enough so that they become commercially available. Because if you just had commercial forces acting on them, some good ideas wouldn’t come into existence because they weren’t gonna be commercially viable. If we saw them as interesting, we would keep them alive long enough with funding so they could prove out to be something. So now fast forward to today. What’s the nature off public private partnership today? And I I think one of the ideas that we have to embrace is so if the strength of America is in the private sector, our adversaries have realized that that’s also the threat surface. But who’s the one that’s gonna lead then? And so do we now have to look at public private partnership in terms of the private sector, taking responsibility for leadership in decision making in the government supporting the private sector.

[0:04:22 Speaker 2] That’s such an interesting idea there because, you know, that’s exactly what the question is, right? Really. I mean, when you have to pinpoint that right of it, where we is a pivot, right? Well, and even in our in our psyche and our American psyche that’s gonna be hired for people, some people to give up,

[0:04:39 Speaker 0] right? So think about Harris started is World War Two is a private sector supporting government because we were the ones making all the big decisions. Now, the way the world is unfolded with industry and global power, does the role change? It does, and then is the private sector ready to lead and make different decisions? And is the government ready to support them in that decision making? I think so. I think that’s where we’re going, and we’re somewhere on that journey.

[0:05:06 Speaker 2] I think this is a problem for us who are trying to prepare the next generation, you know, because we can’t prepare them institution traditional ways there several of the deans of public policy schools that have gotten together and said, You know, the political landscape is different. The relationship between the public and private is different. Information is exploded. So how do you train students to understand what’s good information and what isn’t good information? So we’re in a transition place here. It either whatever we do right now with schools, is either gonna help lead that transition or is not going to make any contribution at all. It best it be neutral, so we don’t want to be neutral. We want to help lead it. But I can’t quite see in my mind what we need to be doing in our schools. How do we prepare our students for this kind of thinking? You know, it’s

[0:05:56 Speaker 0] good, Let’s hear. Um And he told predicated on the notion of If you believe my story, and it’s probably more theory than rule, but resonates, I think, in alliance with what we’ve been thinking about. Yes, Um, is then the tent of national security is really huge, right? Because it’s kind of all of us. And it’s not a small protectionist thing. It’s just how do we make sure that our interests and free, safe, reliable, um can promulgate so potentially huge? So I think we need to prepare everyone the same way. And here’s what I would say if I were preparing students today, first thing I would tell them is spent a lot of time seeing the world could clearly, you know, pick your head up. History is really useful, but it is not a great framework because conditions have changed so much. So really see the world for what it iss, Um, and what the forces are acting, I mean to our history was mostly political, economic. Now, I would say, in a digitally connected world, economic forces are and so how do you see the world and understand it and think about that. And so, whether you’re a political scientist or international relations or computer science, see the world clearly. The second is this is a technical world. You know we cannot long for simpler times. No one is going to be escape able to escape being a competent data swimmer and to be able to use technology and again the same thing. So, so invest in your education or being confident with technology and competent with data because it’s so abundant, so available, and if you can use it, any discipline advances, and then the last would say. First, I tell everyone to be a reader and to hone your fundamental curiosity. Because in a world where technology becomes a commodity, critical thinking will dominate. So if you train your students to be those things and those air layered on top of any of the disciplines they pursue. We’re gonna be OK.

[0:08:07 Speaker 2] This makes me feel really good because one of the things we’ve been talking about is precisely that one of the things we’ve talked about is experiential. It’s just not here. It’s not, You know, it’s not time bound by, you know, a semester 15 hour. You know, you know, of course, is it’s about how you take what you learn and see, hear and see it and test it in the real world. So part of what we’re thinking about is how do you integrate and blend those kinds of experiences while students are still studying and giving them, You know, some lessons and hard Next. When you go out there, it’s not like what you think it’s gonna be. Our students are wonderful, but they come to us with opinions and, you know, you think like, OK, nobody really cares about your opinion, really. But how they care about your measured conclusion after you study things so they had hit in the data is absolutely critical because putting data sets together and looking at metadata and some of the work you did when you were with the G. I s when you’re looking, you know, with government Geospatial was critical, and I know we’re serious. We used us and is telling a story with the picture and also looking at what? That comptel us. And it reveals things that you would never know if you just had data.

[0:09:15 Speaker 0] Yeah, eso anything put in the context of space and time

[0:09:19 Speaker 2] he has more understandable. Exactly. And it tells a narrative Ah, and again, trying to help people understand with that narrative is And I’m so glad you talked about reading and I would hear to get writing. Yes, because writing does really reflect your ability, you know, rationally present an argument. But these are things that are we’re working on now, and a lot of schools are working on this and trying to figure out how we deliver this some so pleased. Did you said

[0:09:46 Speaker 0] one of the questions that I actually have two questions is one that I encourage people ask, is one what if we could and most people correct that into we can And I never know the possibilities, the farm or interesting construct, because it’s just like, what if we could I don’t transport herself to hear it between here and there in no time. That would be amazing. And the other question is, Oh, you wanted its work. Exactly. Putting things into use tends to be a great discriminative of the value of information,

[0:10:22 Speaker 2] absolute the feasibility and the relevance in the timeliness, Cesaire, things that are, you know, you can have great ideas, but nobody can open it can implement them, you know. So you and I both grew up in agencies, and we, you know, we worked in different parts of agencies and we committed ourselves to those. And I think our this generation of students is more likely to move around. And what I really liked about some of the toughest things that you were saying in some of the different interviews that I listen to was we should really attract students to come to the government first and then go out and say, we don’t need you be spending 40 years here, go out into the private sector, understand the context of what it means to be in a national policy stream, make your mark and then come back when you’re tired. You Well, you’re wise. I think you’re wise, and you have that. So talk to me a little bit about their cause. That just resonated with me, Very especially with this generation of students.

[0:11:17 Speaker 0] Yeah, so I usually talk about it in context of how are we gonna track the same talent that he’s in such demand everywhere into government jobs and whether that’s because there’s still this trust gap? Or there’s a pay gap or takes a long time to get a security clearance? And what I say is I can compete head up with anyone for someone’s 1st 5 years. If you work in the government of national security, will have higher purpose and more responsibility than anywhere else. What happens in about five years is you’re now feeling all excited and you want to go someplace in. The bureaucracy kicks in. Yeah, it used to be okay because we did the coolest stuff and had the only talents in certain areas. And now that mathematical Thailand that used to only apply to cryptography now is actually relevant to cybersecurity. And so there are more people who want our talents. So as we kind of bogged down, there are other places that want them, and so we tend to lose town. So how do we construct the stream that says, OK, that’s not just happening to us. How do I use it? And I think that goes into the fact that this is a world of expertise that experts. So when I started, we had experts who did the same job for 30 years. And the Attlee. Good jobs aren’t gonna be around for 30 years, but I need expert expertise that can be applied to a lot of jobs. Well, you develop expertise differently, and I think that’s that in and out, how do you see the same skill from a different angle doing in a different way? So I think there are some really mutually supporting ideas that will fit with the way our our youngsters want to execute their career, and I think it’s exactly what we need. Now. We just have to develop the mechanisms to allow them to move

[0:13:09 Speaker 2] in and out of the how is always a good question and I want it. We can figure out the health. I agree, and I think there’s some people who will never come there, you know, and then there’s some people who we can say that it will take us to the next level, and our job is to take those in the middle and to make sure they’re the ones that take us to the next level. But I think one of the things that we have to overcome is that you know, our students are taught, uh, and they have exposure to people in our, you know, in the policy arena and the public administration arena that there are of a different age, so blending those ages in an environment that that allows this kind of. It’s really a trust level that you have with the between the public and the private sector and the way the work is a challenge, because it’s everything you know. So it’s not just what we think. It’s like they’re going into organizations that have a structure that have a culture. They have tested understanding, and it’s how you shift all of those eso that the environment they go into is ripe for them to contribute and change.

[0:14:12 Speaker 0] Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything more stark right now. Then the kind of tussle uh, that the Department of Defense is having with Google, right? So you have. You have the culture of the defense and the national security community, which is very we’re the good guys. We keep America safe. Um, and you have Google that is advancing our technical wherewithal in really exciting ways that are really useful. And we want these two things to come together. But the culture of the Googles doesn’t don’t see Yep, the culture of national security in the same way it seeds itself. Now me, I think we’re in the same business, use technology, used knowledge for good, but But that is a pretty hard connection to make because you’re so culturally different. And so how are we going to build that trust to allow it? Because I think there is good mutual benefit, and it probably is. I don’t require either toe have to be the other to find ways for them to be mutually beneficial.

[0:15:30 Speaker 2] I think that speaks a lot to the leadership in the Googles and in the Facebooks, and the leadership has to understand this and their workforce because one of the things I loved, I read this is and I’m going to quote you a Z ai advances and becomes more important to the military and intelligence community, and S Silicon Valley continues its reckoning with the real world AH, uses and impacts of its products. It’s an open question whether those partnerships can continue to grow. And here’s your crow. One of the key things about Google is I think it’s adorable that they have more morals now when they’re using technology that the department built for them. That’s a cute she’s. That’s what you said. But we’ve always done this together. I just thought that was just There was one of the best quotes because you see this and you say, are the leadership of these folks getting it and the type of leaders they are within their institutions? Are they ready to move people when people don’t want to be moves, particularly in that direction? So this gets into the leadership issue as well. So somebody like you who’s got thes creative visions and makes and makes it happened and you see these connections, you have to have a partner in the private sector who can align with you and I Right now I don’t you know better than I do. I don’t I see that’s not quite there yet,

[0:16:50 Speaker 0] Yes. So, um one, um handy tip to everyone who’s being interviewed. The interview isn’t over when you think it is the interview’s over. So that line was actually the last line I said in it in an interview. Um uh, it is a

[0:17:12 Speaker 2] mic off when you said it means that the type thing you’re saying just like

[0:17:15 Speaker 0] No, I thought we were done. We had this great interview with the very awesome editorial staff of Wired, and it was such a fun two hours and we were just taught, you know, it kind of started with arms folded and then, yeah, it was really interesting And proving the point that there is energy, excitement everywhere. And so that’s why my tent is big, but we kind of wrapped up. And then someone said that. And so I said that line and it really is what I believe. Um, but what I would have also said is, But I believe in America. Um, I can wait. In other words, it is It is important to me that you go keep advancing because the advance, even without being direct partners, is good for us. That’s what’s exciting about America compared to some of our competitors who wouldn’t knock it down. So I would rather them be able to see their way to partner. I would rather them see that national security is not the way they narrowly interpreted. I would rather that they see the technology isn’t evil. That the cool thing about working in the United States government is that we all swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, which is slightly different than what China does. I would rather they see that. But I would also rather us be living in a country where they can make that choice and still advance, and it lifts all boats. I just think that they need to see what they’re part of. And if they could see what they were part of kind of the private sector, taking it a bit more leadership responsibility, they would see that there were parting offer to

[0:18:58 Speaker 2] I think I’m optimistic that they will. But actually, I said that because that’s what you can clarify there

[0:19:02 Speaker 0] too. But I also believe that I mean, yeah, come

[0:19:05 Speaker 2] on. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, you don’t really know. We don’t know. Just like people don’t know goes behind closed doors and discussions. Ah, like in Congress or in the executive branch? We don’t know, really What kinds of things were being said? Uh, but I want to get to another thing that worries me. And that is so We have a leader like you And let’s say you retire the at force of nature, the a catalyst that sits in the middle of all of this and you go away. How do you grow the sustainability of your energy, your vision, your relationships when you leave?

[0:19:42 Speaker 0] Um, So I believe in America. Um, thing this is really gonna sound cheesy. And I’m so sorry that it just happens to be what I believe. Um, I think we’re all supposed to serve our turn, and and with each job I’ve had, I’ve tried to do everything with it that allows that every place it can go and to take it Um, I have Ah, great mom and dad who raised me up, right? Uh, who taught me to do my best and give something for the cause. And I try and do that every day. I think I’ve become someone who people see is leans forward, takes him wrists. They do, right? Yes. What’s cool about that is is the reason why I can do that is because I know my women and men will never let me down. And so I don’t actually worry much, Uh, about the day when I’m not there, because if I’ve done it right, I’ve given what I was supposed to give. But they’re still there and gonna follow along. I think the one thing I do try and do now, um, is to convince people that they can believe. I think that’s my superpower, I believe. And, um, I believe we can do anything. I believe that we’re fundamentally good. I believe that energy triumphs over bureaucracy on, and I believe that individuals make a difference. And what I try and dio in a time that is way too cynical. Um, way too worried. Uh, way to fraud. Way to bound. Um, I try and be someone who says that, you know, we can do that. And I trying not do not show them that because I’m special. But whether I reflect all the awesome things we’ve done in the past and to remind them that all those things air there for them as well. So I don’t worry about leaving because hopefully I’ve done my job right, served my turn and set the condition where they could step into it.

[0:21:43 Speaker 2] Exactly. That’s that’s fundamental because then it’s an acceptance of they engage in it in their own way. So having, but having an exemplar is really important, having someone they can see and work with and somebody who takes risks and somebody who makes things happen. You can’t really can’t minimize that there is. I mean, being I understand your answer, but I think it’s really important. People work with an under and for people like you because people then see that it can actually work and they can see you know this. We made a mistake here. We had a really great challenge here. So it’s a way of passing is sort of a tacit way of passing the way you try to lead, and that way you try to collaborate to folks and they go, Oh, they can put their own PA print on it after you leave, But I think that’s really important for those of us in positions to make sure there were always aware of what you just said.

[0:22:40 Speaker 0] Yeah, Now that’s a good point. I actually had a really seminal experience early in my career where I was given a really huge responsibility. That was well beyond, um, anyone’s right to expect that I could do it, and it was a huge task and it required innovation. And I did that delivered a really innovative solution for under costs in a very short amount of time. And I screwed it up because I came up with a technical solution. But I didn’t understand. The politics and resource is and all the things you need, you and I. It waas awful my lack of understanding of all the things that you need to do to make something happen because I just thought it was about the thing I was developing actually caused the guy toe, sell his company and do all the things. And we got an organizational trouble. When I went to my boss and told them about this failure, my boss said to me and and I was changed After he said this, he said, I’ve seen worse. What I I’m the most hypercritical person self critical person in her life And I’m thinking the free world is gonna end And my boss said I’ve seen worse. And in a flash, I saw two things. Number one because he was so good he could give me a hard task. Let me do it completely. I delivered innovation and there was nothing so bad that he couldn’t a constant, I thought, Okay, I’m gonna learn to be much better at my job and see all those things. And then I want to be the boss. That could always say to my people, I seem worse because what that allows is just an incredible achievement. It means you have to be good at your job. So I try to be good at my job. But then I try and let go. And so it turns out from my worst failure in my career, I learned the one lesson that I think has changed me, which is I’ve seen worse.

[0:24:46 Speaker 2] You know, this is interesting because several people that we’ve had on the podcast who people say that person has failed. No, you know, there’s always this this trajectory smooth road and they have and they’re they’ve shared with us on the podcast. It’s like I got fired or this happened very do this. And it was a moment that they said, you know, first of all, it was like a jolt. It was humbling experience because I was so myopic or I was just thinking about

[0:25:10 Speaker 0] that. I just didn’t see the world

[0:25:11 Speaker 2] and see the world. And but people who that the mistake was made in the environment, we’re forgiving and just said, Well, this away, that’s wiggles. And if you’re willing to work hard and learn from this on, we go because I think so many people think it’s just first. They think they can’t make a mistake or else. And second, they just don’t take the risk. If they if they think that they’re going to be admonished for a mistake, they won’t take the risk. So this is dis fits into some of the other example IRS What

[0:25:38 Speaker 0] didn’t my boss do? He didn’t say, Give me the work. I’ll do it for here.

[0:25:43 Speaker 2] Yeah, I’m not gonna give you something like that again.

[0:25:45 Speaker 0] I see. That’s a cool saying. It’s like I didn’t see that coming Soon we got to do this and it went forward, and I just think, um, does your important stories to tell. It’s important. We developed leaders who could do that. That had hard experiences young. And I think that’s one of the things that I wish I had said earlier to One of your questions is, um, I worry, um that for is amazing. The people coming up are, and I will tell you, if they keep coming, we’re gonna be OK. I agree, right? That just fundamentally, I do think sometimes I think that if it’s hard, it’s not right. It’s all hard. It’s always all hard. Yes, and so don’t think that just because it’s hard, it’s not right. And I will tell you the best things are achieved because you could live with the mess long enough for it to be manifest right? If you need it to be neat too early, you won’t get to the big thing. So that would be my one. Big thing is, it’s all hard.

[0:26:52 Speaker 2] Yes, it is. And if it’s not hard often it’s not worth it, because when it comes to things at your level, Ah, that means that things couldn’t be resolved in levels below you. So when it comes as you move up into that stream of leadership they become not the a clear, you know, the tensions air, not their clear or you know where you’re going to go. So having that is really an important, important message. So So I’ve really enjoyed this. Is there anything else you’d like to say? Most of the people are listening to this and the way I do this is for our students so that those who couldn’t meet you in person would get to hear which he had to say. I wish people could see you and meet you. You’re just like this. You’re just such an incredibly normal one person. I mean, you know, you just you just exude energy and optimism, and I wish students could get to know you. But if they can’t, is there anything you’d like to leave us with?

[0:27:45 Speaker 0] Ah, I think I just, um I think when I tell them is an and the usually this is my sales pitch for the intelligence community. But actually, I just think it’s by sale. Sports for life right now is, um, do something that matters. Um, and it hardly matters what it is, and you don’t have to race to your feature. I wish I had known when I started that that my thirties weren’t the whole part of my life, You know, here I am at 60 with nearly 40 years in, and I can think of another whole career’s worth of work to do so Don’t race to your future. But also don’t waste a minute of what you’re in and do something that matters. Um, I think you’ll be happy, and I think you’ll take us somewhere and both those things are really important.

[0:28:40 Speaker 2] Amen. Thank you so much for the time that you spent with us. I so appreciate it. I’ve loved it. Yes, so important.

[0:28:47 Speaker 1] Thistles. Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin Way, take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it. To learn more, visit LBJ dot utexas dot eu and follow us on Twitter or Facebook at the LBJ School. Thank you for