Episode 13 – Chicago’s Mayor Rahm Emanuel on pragmatism in politics

[0:00:00 Speaker 0] This’ll is Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin Way take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it For more. Visit LBJ dot utexas Study Teoh

[0:00:20 Speaker 1] Hello and welcome to policy on purpose. I’m so pleased to have Mayor Rahm Emanuel from Chicago here with us today. He spent the day in and out of Austin and mostly with us. And we had such an incredible session with you, Mayor Emanuel. The students came after the session and just said they wished it had gone three or four hours, and, uh and it was because

[0:00:39 Speaker 2] they wanted to cut class.

[0:00:40 Speaker 1] And no, it’s not true way. Mayor Emanuel was so open and, you know, so forthcoming with the students, it was just an amazing thank you very much.

[0:00:50 Speaker 2] I told you, I want, you know, have already been on the phone with my kids. So I’m or trying to figure out a time for a spring break. We’re coming back for the library a minimum. Zack and I are going to do it. Good. Life is yes, too, so

[0:01:07 Speaker 1] good. Well, I’d like to see the kids at the school to just to show him around.

[0:01:11 Speaker 2] Well, I’m sure we can take a bathroom break in the school or something like that. That’s not

[0:01:15 Speaker 1] a problem. We’ll see how this interview goes to go. Well, that’s got to be a free for all, Which is just fine with me. I think this is great. Get him. Get him. Okay, Ready? I’m in number. I’ve been ready already. Honey, go. This is great. Okay? You’re known for your tenacity and your persistence in your drive. And what I want to know is, how did you find these? How did you use these tools? In important situations when you had to bring coalitions together that really didn’t like each other. And that had to work together? Because you know, these these these traits air really important. And some people can see them is off putting, but so

[0:02:01 Speaker 2] they can be. I mean, they don’t always have some Look, I mean, you know that your great strength for your also your greatest weaknesses. So there are moments in time where this is actually refers to me, is a heat seeking missile that if I have a moment and I need to get to a goal. I’ll try to find the open the door. I’ll try to open the door or I’ll just take a sledgehammer. Knocked the wall down. But if I set a goal, um, that goals to be accomplished, okay? And that if certain things like whether it’s a full school day or President Obama’s health care or President Clinton’s kidcare or more importantly, like the non more importantly. But where was really touching Go the assault weapon ban? I’ll tell you a story about that. Ah, tenacity, fierceness, never willing to let go of the goal. Our assets, they can also be, you will know for all of us. Traits can also be liabilities. A certain point, the quality of I’m trying to think of an animal bringing people together. Um, I think I would, rather than a singular moment. I tried it. Let me think it is the arc of time where you don’t just get something going to move on, but keeping people consistently through. And, you know, I suppose the beta thing about it is, you know, I could have stopped a full day kindergarten for Children, which I chop list in 2012 but over the last five years we were adding 500 gets here or whatever, and I set a personal goal of getting to Universal full day pre K for every child. And we will get that on my last day last year of my term. This will be the second year of a four year phasing of all that. We identified the money. We’re building out the space, so we couldn’t have actually accomplished ago. But that’s been a six year holding my administration that that’s what we’re gonna get done if you got you have of finding quarter behind the couch that quarter goes to pre K. If you find that nickel behind the you know the Facenda that goes toe pre K and making sure that while you have 100 priorities and I have one thing I found in public life, it is better to do one thing 100% that do four things that 50% because nobody, everybody will focus on the 50. They didn’t get done of any one of the four. That’s

[0:04:14 Speaker 1] right, but you had a lot going on. You think? Yeah, the other thing.

[0:04:18 Speaker 2] I don’t know. Um, there was a story. I was gonna keep you on the only saw weapon ban. So we pass in 94 the crime bill, which is 100,000 community police officers, massive expansion of after school and what was then called midnight basketball, etcetera. And then separately from the crime bill, we then our except forward in March of 94 to pass the assault with a man. There’s all in the house, and everybody thought, uh, they would send it to Jack Brooks, Texas Democrat. He would go to the judiciary and there shall not see the light of day. And this is actually Chuck Schumer. And I became really good friends. Got as a point person in the White House. I did the Brady bill in ah, the winter fall of 93. So Chuck and I started working in, and this was the first time we beat Chairman Brooks in his own committee, which, if you know, obviously alleges I very you don’t be Chairman Brooks, you know, be any chairman. If they’re good Chairman, if they deserve the title chairman, you don’t beat him in their own committee. Uh, so we get it to the floor anyway. Fast forward. We, uh, cobbled together. We had to designed out of the White House the first time, actually, a White House war room. People will talk about it. The healthcare actually started on the assault weapon ban. And we worked local press, not national press on the assault weapon ban. You know, if you saw Chuck Schumer shooting an Uzi at a gun sight, that would give you a reason to ban um, or band chalk humor. Either ban the assault weapon marriage, but never put the two together. But anyway, we did a lot of different things. Local media, etcetera feed in. And we’d have to use the president doing radio interviews in members districts. We passed it by one vote, and I won’t tell. Well, it is all you need, Leader. Whip Bon. Your Majority leader Gephardt and Speaker Foley come up to see the president. Were upstairs on the second floor of the East Wing, the green room up of it, major oil paintings up on the wall, and they asked him to separate the assault weapon ban from the crime bill. They would pass the crime bill. He would get his 100,000 which was his main goal in the campaign. But we knew then that if he took the soul within Band out, you’re basically delegate, relegating it to being dead, all right. And Clinton tells Foley, Gephardt and Bonnier, I won’t take it out. You guys, Then don’t take up the crime bill. But I’m not taking that out. And it was a moment of immense courage. That thing would’ve been dead if you listen to leadership. Comedy 94 They were not out of the recession from a feeling why, you know, and Clinton, to his credit, steered the leadership down. I said, Then don’t do a crime bill just to health care. I’m not taking it out. And Gephardt, Foley and Bond, you’re not wrongfully blamed me. I was the one for If you took it out, you would get destroyed, Mr President, impress you be the weak person, and you be basically a tool off Congress rather than the leader that you are not incorrect of the advice I gave. I forgot where was in the Senate anyway. If goes down, the crime bill goes down because of the assault weapon ban and we also have in there. I forgot this. So 100,000 community, these officers, all the after school programs, the assault weapon ban and the first ever Violence against women act that Joe Biden, the senator it sponsored in John Kasich. When it goes down, we have two weeks to rally everybody’s vote. John Kasich agrees to bring 14 Republicans to support the assault weapon ban in a crime bill. And it was the first time that we broke from a unified Democratic Congress to work in a bipartisan fashion with Republicans because the Republicans were the only ones that would stand by the assault event, not an accident that there start to be. You know, John, um, I forgot the woman’s name that was a congresswoman. Also, she’s They’re both suburban Columbus, Ohio, Suburban and the assault weapons starting to carry currency and Suburbans commit District’s. And things got added on penalties that there’s a lot of people today say, in retrospect, that was horrible. But you would have lost the assault weapon ban because if you didn’t have those 14 Republicans that Democrats were going to force the president to abandon the assault weapon ban, that was the trade off a real politik, and people don’t like to remember the crassness of doing deals. But that was the deal. We ended up caring forward and then passed in the Senate, and people forget. Eight Republicans voted against closure. But then they voted for Senator Cohn, who became secretary of state, voted against the crime bill with them, voted for it. John Danforth, Mr Moral principles. Not that he doesn’t have a voted against closer than voted for the crime building with its all with it, so that, you know, talk about a laser focus, and I have a great pictures. I don’t think anybody ever gave a president to bear hug with his feet off the ground, which is I have in the library of the When we passed the assault weapon that because I basically took his he listened to me and I had willingly gambled, and he would gave me the account to gamble political capital to steer the House leadership down, pass a bill, get it done and set in motion a series of things. And so that’s goes to Clinton’s credit. Men

[0:10:04 Speaker 1] will close to your credit. One of the things we’ve been trying to talk about here. It school is a lot of you. Learn to stories. People tell you a story, right? A narrative about,

[0:10:13 Speaker 2] like, 5000 years of Jewish history, man. What What

[0:10:15 Speaker 1] is this? You guys learns

[0:10:17 Speaker 2] from stories Breaking news. That’s what the old Testament is.

[0:10:20 Speaker 1] OK, yeah. So we’re going back. Back

[0:10:23 Speaker 2] How much time you’ve got for 5000 years to summarize it all.

[0:10:26 Speaker 1] But I wanted to one of the things that in terms of the students and what you just said, we’re trying to teach them things or he have them exposed to what we were talking about earlier frames, you know, think about strategies. So one thing is, how do you create? And you just answered some of it giving stories of how you create coalitions on long folks who really don’t want to play and they play at the effort. I’ve got more to go.

[0:10:50 Speaker 2] You know, Henry, Henry Kissinger had a great quote. You want it?

[0:10:53 Speaker 1] I don’t know if it’s gonna hurt my reputation. I don’t want it.

[0:10:56 Speaker 2] Does anybody have any questions for my answers?

[0:10:58 Speaker 1] I don’t have answers. Okay, you have answers, but this is It’s a bunch of things. It’s how do you form coalitions of people who really don’t want to work together and how you hold those coalitions in a different issue? The S one. And you’re talking about theater. The other one is how How do you decide is a leader to say Okay? I mean, this is it. I’m delegating my trust to you, and you’re gonna do it and, you know, how do you win there? So we talked to the students. They have to be thinking about how you were talking about think about your north and think about what you really want to account, right? So the tools I’m thinking about that they need or those kinds of tools.

[0:11:35 Speaker 2] I’m not sure you you know, I’m not. I’m not sure between education and experience, that experience doesn’t beat oh than that. And I’m I don’t know if you can you tell stories, but I think actually, experience is the only way you’re gonna learn and failing at doing it. Maybe so you can do case studies, study former case studies. But unless you are their tenant, you know, there was a that juncture. Wasn’t George were in Georgia’s office when the crime bill went down and we all knew that if the crime bill on down stayed down, health care was definitely dead. If you pass the crime bill, Healthcare had a shot, not a guarantee. So this was more than just the crime bill going down. If you kind of give the moment. And when it went down more than kid, they call the kids. George Bruise, George Stephanopoulos. Bruce Reed myself. Michael Woman Dee Dee Myers Um, we all gather, enjoy. And we gave the president our collective political advice, which is to go forward. And we didn’t know what we meant by go forward. The one thing that was keeping ah can’t believe I’m gonna say this. Please edit this out. Whatever you dio Ah, Mayor Giuliani said he would stand by the A crime bill. We had a Republican mayor, and it made a difference in the phone call that if you’re trying to do this all of and remember this the other thing, Gingrich is determined to shove it to Clinton because he sees 94 things that got a shot at taking over this would be history. And he says in facts tells case it. You can’t go up unless I’m in the room. They said, Well, you can come to the room, but I’m leading the 14th and Gingrich does everything. He had very ugly things. He said the Schumer met Cimbom. I wonder why I picked those two names. Did very ugly things on talking. Yeah, totally. And ah, Now, to Foley’s credit, he comes from Western Washington full that Speaker Foley tells the president that if you need one vote of oh for non western Ohio, if you know anything about Western watching, say if you know anything voting for the assault weapon ban might as well sign your death warrant. In essence, just I want 12 floggings, no food, and then just shoot me, Okay? I mean, that is like a really to petunias credit. You’re the president. United States. Those were the days I’m the speaker of the house. You’re my president. You put your capital on the line. This is your presidency. I will not let you fail. That was how spoke with Speaker Foley did it, and he put his himself and at great risk, and he would not let the bill go down on dso those and Clinton. If you go to his politics at this moment, if he backs off the salt weapon, he looks weak. Nothing worse for President, States Senate to look weak. If he puts it in, he has to jettison X amount of Democrats and willingly accept. Now, Jason John. Cases for this all just put in and I’m OK. Here’s my 14. They wanted certain things in it, and you have to be willing. What is your price? Your prices? I made a pledge. People would see crime not going up. They need an answer. And here is other politics. A whole different. That’s the politics of Hill. We come out of 19 sixties is the anti police party. Bill Clinton wants to take crime as an issue that’s been used since Richard Nixon against Democrats off the table and identified the Democrats with 100,000 community police officers, midnight basketball, gun control, with the assault event and the first ever Violence Against Women Act. And we would have a different postures. A party as relates to public safety John Kasich, 14 Republicans. We don’t get 14 Democrats, he says. Here’s the price I have to pay to be part of your party. And his price was stiffer sentences, etcetera. And Clinton either Abandoned assault weapon Ban. Pass it. But be look weak. Hold your principal. Hold your ground. Created bipartisan bill and passed the assault weapon ban. And 100,000 continued police officers mainly go in big cities in America. And then you got to go. Okay, since it’s not 100% over here and not zero over there. Here we go. What’s the calculation? What’s the wind? What’s the Lawson is? And as I always say, I always say, this is Mayor. When we were going through budgets or anything, What is the pain versus what is the pleasure? And if I’m willing to pay this plane, we’ll get me that much pleasure. And you are and judgment.

[0:16:05 Speaker 1] I thought I was listening to it. I was listening. Teoh, you know, to do this, I had to do homework. I mean, I knew you when I was on the hill from a hill perspective, but I was I was really doing a lot of home for several work. Yes, I was looking at YouTube and I was listening to what you had to say and you said that you said it a couple times pain to pleasure and the reason why it stuck to because it’s absolutely true. It’s very simple, but you got to calculate it has to be on your calculus.

[0:16:28 Speaker 2] We’re here. Lyndon Baines Johnson School in the shadows of the library. I know the two presidents are I work for, um, take I mean, I don’t know. I do admire, you know, President Bush 43 eighties in 0806 We take over the House and Senate and he decides, and we run on a number of issues, of which one is Iraq, And what’s the answer? I’m gonna have a surge. We just won the House and Senate. Did you not listen to the voters? And he decides to double down. And he knows if I don’t get Iraq and shape before I leave, I’m gonna be a little of that. Iraq will. He makes a calculated yes, all the policy reasons put that aside, though, with calculation out politics not in a bad way. And he that’s incredible pain to some level of pleasure. When the pleasure was It’s not what it was when I in the middle of the war. It’s in a different place, past the search with Petraeus. And when you go so my calculation about you know, in politics you can’t swing it every ball. So you have to decipher as well are we doing? We’re doing that together. Now we do

[0:17:39 Speaker 1] it that way. I won’t get the couch out. I’m sorry. This is not covered. Not to get into that with you, because you’re so he’s he’s been talked to like Okay, forget it. You

[0:17:49 Speaker 2] give good. I’m gonna have you call my wife. You

[0:17:51 Speaker 1] don’t think I

[0:17:51 Speaker 2] talk enough about things? I feel like OK, so But my point is you have to evaluate and I mean one of things I love listening to Johnson’s voice on the phone. You have that calculation like it’s like Watson at IBM has nothing on Lyndon Johnson. You can just hear or I think I’m listening to Theo

[0:18:14 Speaker 1] things and there it is. And

[0:18:16 Speaker 2] those guys calculated not only this pain to that pleasure. What does he want? What I want? What does it mean? Outside wasn’t different, and

[0:18:24 Speaker 1] he’s got literally almost two billion

[0:18:28 Speaker 2] calculations going on and within a call and he’s got it. And that to me, as you know, wielding power to exert influence to change the course of policy. That is what governments about. And if you don’t understand power, you don’t understand policy and government. I know we you know, we’re the only two of us at the table. So of course, we agree we’re both here, that one of the things that you know, I wish politics was involved.

[0:18:56 Speaker 1] Really? Really in government. You wish it wasn’t politicked about. I don’t know if you know this. I wish profit was involved in capitalism. How’s that going? Okay, He’s like the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Of course, there’s politics. Yes. I don’t know if you know this. It’s there. In politics, you can’t take politics out of politics any more than

[0:19:14 Speaker 2] you take profit under the private sector. Yes, and so this is like a dumb idea. But the question is, do you have leaders that sometimes calculate that the pain that nobody else can see is worth the pleasure? And when you look at Johnsons domestic schedule and I, there are things that I said to you earlier about, like Head start that this week the report comes out. I’m not sure how much pressure he put into it, but, you know, if he did head start, my guess is there’s three things that think get them because he said, That’s what I want because you can’t do all four from And so he was willing to exert. And there’s members that want this done. There’s members want that, and this powerful chairman wants this done in front of that. Done. There’s all these other things going on, and he says, No head start gets in front of the queue. And now, 50 years later, we find out blown, behold. Guess what early childhood works? I would like to send the report out to the Heritage Foundation. They could do a study of it. I mean, that’s in bed. He used power to exert influence to change policy,

[0:20:18 Speaker 1] and he had the like, some things that you were talking about when something she had to give up. You know, in terms of mayor, and when you have the long view, when you have the long view, it’s not for immediate satisfaction. Immediate gratification. Everybody really raving. It’s and it wonderful. It’s like you in your head are confident you have a good chance of having the long view and you have to act on. And I think that’s

[0:20:38 Speaker 2] what President, mayors, governors. The crown’s heavy. Yeah, it weighs heavy on the head now, Johnson famously said. If I think I’m having a bad day, I think, God, that I’m not a mayor. You can’t say that today. 50 years ago, mayors you wouldn’t show up in the Oval Office to say, Save us our cities of burning. Today we come to Washington say we’re going to save you because you’re burning very big difference. That’s changed in 50 years. Which is why I think last night you and I were talking about this leaving President Obama Side is chief of staff, coming to be mayor of the city. Chicago wasn’t a Steptoe does not insult to the chief of staff job or a mayor of a great city with the capacity of that city, not a step down in the way that Johnson referred to it. And I think he would be Cerise today were the calculus, and Senator Gravity of power is

[0:21:33 Speaker 1] innovation. No, we’re seeing that, too, and we’re senior students. Move more and more towards the stairs

[0:21:39 Speaker 2] about that. How many of them said I’m working for this state rep this City Council person versus I’m I’m a congressional staff of X, Y or Z.

[0:21:47 Speaker 1] Yeah, well, some do that as well.

[0:21:50 Speaker 2] Let’s not go overboard. I was trying to make a point. You have to say that it was nobody else knew what did you room the parade

[0:21:57 Speaker 1] and I just found it on the spot Guests on purpose. So a policy on purpose? I do have, ah, question, though. And one is that How do we take the knowledge that you have when you’re telling, you’ll see stories and other people have and bring it to the common people because we had the benefit of hearing you today and how you’re putting stories, the stories together that you did in the

[0:22:20 Speaker 2] That’s my social media. Where is this? Her job. But you’re interviewing the wrong person. That’s her job to figure out. How do you get

[0:22:25 Speaker 1] OK, you just you just trying to delay so that you can think about a really good answer. Teoh, I’m thinking, How do we because people don’t see this? You know I saying people don’t see Washington. They don’t understand policy. They don’t understand the city. They don’t. Yes. Yes, sir. Madam. Mr Mayor, Yes.

[0:22:47 Speaker 2] Washington’s become Disneyland on the Potomac, and they’re not. And why? Well, that’s all that’s let me get Answer your first question before I answer your second question. One of things that’s also important about cities today, especially in a time of fractured politics. Is this the most immediate, an intimate form of government that people thinks of impact their lives that they can impact? Uh huh. Okay, You’re not staying the instability locally that you’re seeing this to business nationally, which is distant, far away, and becoming more more entertainment. Unless unless

[0:23:24 Speaker 1] so do you feel when you talk to the people of Chicago that they have an open mind here, what you have to say and understand the consequences? I mean, maybe more. So you’re saying that at the national and

[0:23:35 Speaker 2] I think that opened my I think they care patmore they’re more involved on. If you want citizens for you want involvement? Yeah. OK, so that’s one. Um, you know, I really do think where Look back and I don’t think I’m being Nobody would look at, you know, Rama males Wild. I optimist. I think I’m a pretty practical, pragmatic person. I think Donald Trump’s greatest contribution is gonna be He’s really he’s created a lit the fuse of a Renaissance and citizenship because we never want to do this again. And I really think that will be a counter reaction to him.

[0:24:10 Speaker 1] We’re seeing it already. Yeah, I think

[0:24:12 Speaker 2] you know, I’m seeing it in the generation of just your kids here, but and awareness in, ah, involvement. There’s some level of idealism to the point that they don’t impracticality because they don’t want to be pragmatic. That’s that’s not a high class problem. That’s a problem that said, um and I actually think I’ve talked people running for president. I’m a big believer that the most important thing we can do is a country is restore national, uh, national service that when you graduate high school, everybody has to do a minimum of six months, and when I say national service, I’m not saying Marine Corps or army, although I put that in there is you must do six months, and I think the value of my Children serving alongside ah child from Texas hill country to ah child from outside Jacksonville, Florida on ice A child, you know, they’re 18. 19. I think we can’t underestimate in a period of incredibly fractured moment reestablishing our threads of unity and bond this And, you know, I’ve said that one group today I was speaking to here is you know, they were asking about the 1/3. They’re so crazy. Oh, maybe you should listen to them. And you know I’m not. I’m giving advice that I’m not good always 100% myself at, uh, but I’m a great doctor on prescribing thing, but I’m serious on that, is we and I really believe. And I think actually, the country of all walks knows that this is not normal. And we need to give our right, and we need to get the center of gravity

[0:25:56 Speaker 1] back in one of the things in policy schools of all the schools, when you think about, you have to encourage those kinds of discussions in the classroom and facilitate that idea that your you have to listen and you have to understand where do you align even if it’s like 1%? Can you start there? That’s the kind. This is a very big change in how we teach very big a different approach to public policy for all the service

[0:26:20 Speaker 2] engineer places of higher education. Aren’t that great at this? I know you can’t say anything. I’m saying it for you, but that your blinking like the soldier in the captive in North Vietnam’s army. You know, we all have good days and bad days on it, but the tolerance level, you can disagree. But I’m not sure people hear each other anymore. And that’s a problem. That’s a big problem.

[0:26:41 Speaker 1] So I want one more question before we go. Most people when they leave probable office, you know, the take a breath would ever write a book. You’re going to take a bike ride? Yeah. So

[0:26:50 Speaker 2] how do you know that’s not a lot of breasts?

[0:26:52 Speaker 1] A lot of lot of a lot of breath, but I’m just thinking most people think about okay, now I’m kind of taken a respite from everything, and I’m going to write a book I’m writing. Oh, you’re doing. But well, I should have known that you’re gonna

[0:27:04 Speaker 2] do both. Now the book is about, um, one level. It’s about this moment will look back 10 years in the review mirror theatric thing of the nation state and the emergence of the city’s state and that cities and mayors today are doing things and at being asked to do things that they didn’t do before. But because there’s no national partner they have to and that community groups not for profits and universities are stepping up in partnership with the public sector in a way that the void because of the federal government. I mean, I use this his dramatic moment, But it’s an illustration. When Detroit was dealing with a pension issue, Ford Foundation helped him, not the federal government. Okay, so then the other thing is, if you’re gonna be a a global city with the institutions of higher learning, major businesses, universities, cultural institutions, the most successful cities going forward will find somewhere the best equilibrium between live work and play. And, you know, on the so in Chicago, you know, on the lakefront I’ve created by separate bike and running path, I re invented and created a renaissance of introducing the city to the river as a recreational park, and we’ve done something a river walk. And then, um, did things of obviously on corporate recruitment, etcetera? Uh huh. And what we’ve done on the emergence of a tech part of our economy, let alone all the others growth in the economy. But global cities that are tracking talent and growing will be ones that find a balance between live, work and play that they could do it all. Some are better live, somewhere better warrior. And then, most importantly, as one of your students asked, I think I addressed is where you create an educational structure where other people can participate. Who in the past used to be cut off from that bounty that acidic it offer.

[0:29:16 Speaker 1] Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun, but it’s been great.

[0:29:19 Speaker 2] Funny way describing fun.

[0:29:21 Speaker 1] What? I want to talk Teoh giving you crafting. Okay. I couldn’t do it when I went to

[0:29:25 Speaker 2] Sarah Lawrence. I’m just giving it to

[0:29:27 Speaker 1] you. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank

[0:29:29 Speaker 2] you very much.

[0:29:31 Speaker 0] This is Policy on Purpose, a podcast produced by the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. We take you behind the scenes of policy with the people who help shape it. To learn more, visit LBJ dot utexas dot edu and follow us on Twitter or Facebook at the LBJ School. Thank you for listening