S4, Episode 7: The Arguments of Sophocles’ Philoctetes

[00:00:00] Caroline: Hi, y’all. Welcome to Season 4, Episode 7 of the Musings in Greek Literature Podcast. I’m Caroline Young, and I’m your host for this episode. With me as my co host today is Kristen Allen. Today, we’re going to talk about the arguments made by Neoptolemus and Philoctetes, as well as who we think is more convincing and has a stronger argument.

We will be reading lines 1316 through 1325 of Philoctetes, as well as lines 1360 to 1372 as evidence. Let’s get started. So let’s get into it. So first we’re going to read line 1316 through 1325 of the TV’s. This is neat. Thomas trying to convince Philip TD to return with him. Now listen to the benefit. I hope to win from you.

Men must endure the fortunes which are given them by God, but when they willingly persist in pain like you, it is not right for anyone to pardon them or have compassion on them. You are too harsh and will not hear advice, and if one counsels you with good intentions, you hate him and consider him your foe, yet I will speak and call God as my witness.

So hear my words and write them in your heart. So here Neoptolemus is trying to convince Philoctetes to return to Troy with him and the bow. He’s making a lot of arguments here. First, he’s saying that Philoctetes is willingly suffering, so he deserves no compassion. Second, he says that Philoctetes does not understand who is his enemy.

And third, he is arguing that Philoctetes illness won’t end until he willingly goes to Troy. So Kristen, what do you think of these arguments? Do you think they have any merit? Is there anything that I’m missing here?

[00:01:41] Kristen: There’s also sort of an argument made in favor of following the divinity. When he says men must endure the fortunes which are given them by God, it’s kind of telling like, like all men, Philoctetes, you have a preordained path and you’re kind of refusing to follow it.

It’s a, it’s a little bit more reading between the lines on this, but I just think it is still part of Neoptolemus’s argument. Okay.

[00:02:05] Caroline: No, yeah, definitely. That 100 percent makes sense. Yeah, I feel like Tidus is definitely not wanting to follow whatever path he’s been given by the gods. It’s so true. So, do you find these arguments, like, convincing so far?

[00:02:19] Kristen: Some yes and some no. The idea that he’s willingly suffering is something that kind of has a little more nuance to it. It, he’s still very much a victim. It is just that he is not really, trying to do anything about it. It’s not like he shot himself in the foot so he wouldn’t have to go anywhere, but he’s also not taking the hand that’s being held out to him.

Then again, he does have his own reasons, which we are yet to hear.

[00:02:48] Caroline: Yeah, that’s really true. Yeah, he’s like, choosing to not receive help, so that’s very, that’s very true. Our next passage is lines 1360 to 1372, um, from Philip T. D. ‘s, which is Philip T. D. ‘s response to the speech. Kristen, you want to go ahead and read that?

[00:03:04] Kristen: Yes. For when men have given birth to evil thoughts once, they soon will learn others. Your actions, too, surprise me. You should never have thought of going back to Troy or taking my bow, for these men have insulted you and robbed you your father’s arms. Can you intend to go and fight for them and force me also?

No, child, not that. You must fulfill your promise to take me home, and you must stay in Skiros, and let those evil men die and be damned. Thus, you will win a double gratitude, mine and my father’s. And though you have served bad men, your nature will not seem like theirs.

[00:03:46] Caroline: Yeah, that’s great. So, I feel like Tidus is making a lot of arguments, too.

You’re welcome. He’s telling himself that because Neoptolemus is acting like a friend, Thalictides should listen. However, he’s also weighing the consequences of this. Returning to Troy would mean teaming up with his enemies. This terrifies Thalictides. He’s arguing that whatever future harms his enemies would cause him, and that future harm, which is not a matter of if, but when, would be far worse than his past and present pain.

Philoctetes applies this argument to Neoptolemus as well. These men dishonored his father, Achilles, by stripping him of his armor. So, why should Neoptolemus even help them, is what he’s essentially saying. And finally, Philoctetes reminds Neoptolemus of his promise to take Philoctetes home. So, Kristen, what do we think of this?

[00:04:37] Kristen: It kind of hints at it in this passage as well, where there is this feeling that Philoctetes has towards Neoptolemus, where it’s like, dude, I really respect you. You’re not like the rest of them. This isn’t like you to be all deceptive and cruel like them. This isn’t like you and it also isn’t like your father, Achilles.

Like, this is, Philoctetes brings this idea that Neoptolemus is being corrupted by them. What you see in the end there, uh, your nature will not seem like theirs. For when men have given birth to evil thoughts once, they will soon learn others. Um, that’s not necessarily just talking about Philoctetes. I think it’s mainly talking about Philoctetes and his understanding of like, yeah, you did me wrong once, you’re gonna do it again.

But also Neoptolemus. Neoptolemus is kind of uncomfortable with this situation. He doesn’t like that this is what he was ordered to do to Philoctetes. And this is kind of like a warning being like, Yeah, you’re right you didn’t like this. This is against your nature. But it’s gonna keep getting worse if you keep hanging around those dang Achaeans.

No, yeah,

[00:05:43] Caroline: that’s exactly right. Like, and we have this whole thing where Neoptolemus is supposed to be the blank slate that everyone’s trying, that everyone’s character is being portrayed upon. And it seems like Philoctetes is trying to remind him that, yeah, like, dude, these, these other Greeks are not good for you and, like, they’re going to corrupt you, but it’s not too late, like, you can still come back.

And it feels like Philoctetes is supposed to be, like, the good model at this, in this. So, yeah, that’s, that’s a really good point. I have one more thing I want

[00:06:13] Kristen: to add, actually. Yeah, go ahead. And one of the other things I like about the arguments that he makes here is it’s kind of a departure from Philoctetes usual appeal.

He’s normally, his case is very emotional. It’s very much like, look at this poor, wretched man crawling around on the floor, like, you’re supposed to pity him. And that usually, throughout the entire play, has been kind of the crux of his appeal as a character. But in this actual back and forth argument, he actually displays quite a bit of logic here.

It’s not just rehashing his old points of no, they wronged me. They did this, this, and this to me. Why would I ever, like, how could I ever forgive them? Because that’s kind of what you would expect as we start working up to this point. But I was very, I enjoyed seeing that there was still a side of him that could kind of reach for these little connections between the two of them and use them to make an actually pretty convincing argument in my point.

[00:07:14] Caroline: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly that it’s, it’s a very convincing argument. And, yeah, it feels like Neal Ptolemas really should be listening to him because he truly has been wronged by these guys. Like, I, I mean, this, this made me question whether or not Neal Ptolemas really should help them. I mean, yes, it would be for the greater good, but, like, These guys are not good guys, and if in the end he ends up becoming like them, is it really worth it?

Let’s go ahead and try to connect this to the Heroic Moral Code. So, both men are trying to treat their friends well and their enemies poorly. But who do we think is doing this better?

[00:07:49] Kristen: So, when coming to answer that question, I had a little bit of difficulty. Because, obviously, it depends on who each character in the play considers a friend and a foe, and as Neoptolemus points out in his argument, Philoctetes is struggling with it.

I will say that Philoctetes pretty, pretty solidly views the Achaean as a whole as his enemy. I think that’s pretty indisputable. And I would say that he’s doing a pretty good job of treating them poorly by making this whole ordeal incredibly difficult for them.

[00:08:18] Caroline: Yeah, that’s for sure. But then Neoptolemus is also trying to I’m like, it’s by helping all of these Greeks who have hurt him.

Is he really viewing the enemy correctly? Or is he just so focused on Troy being the enemy that he can’t really, he’s not worried about the other Greeks? He has enough problems of his own.

[00:08:37] Kristen: I think that Neoptolemus, Uh, by this point, at least, has come to want to see Philoctetes as a friend instead of just a problem he needs to solve.

Where he reaches out and he tells him the truth. He is honest with Philoctetes because he doesn’t want to keep following Odysseus plan of just being deceitful the entire time. And that is a gesture of good faith. That is, to me, that is the definitive proof that, okay, if we have to put these characters relationships in a camp somewhere, they’re in the friend camp.

We’re not hostile towards each other. And so he’s doing, Neoptolemus, I feel, is doing his best. He’s trying to actually come clean about what’s going on and approach him with an argument instead of just force. So I think that is a good, as good an example as we can get of friends treating each other well.

In this situation.

[00:09:33] Caroline: Yeah, and by, I guess, Tom is trying to convince Philoctetes to come with him. He’s also telling him, Hey, this is the only way in which you’re going to be healed. And so he’s looking out for Philoctetes best interest there too. So, that’s also like an interesting thing to think about. But, yeah, it’s definitely hard to see because they’re both, it seems like they’re both trying to treat each other well and look out for each other.

But, they definitely differ in who they see the enemy as. Which is very interesting. Interesting. While Neoptolemus views Troy as the enemy, um, Philoctetes is still having is still dealing with being the Greeks as his enemies. Let’s go ahead and close this with a vote. In your opinion, who is more convincing, Neoptolemus or Philoctetes?

[00:10:17] Kristen: Okay, so this is where I start to actually have a little bit of issue because To me, the situation seems here that what they should do is not help the Achaeans and not go to Troy, but what they have to do is go to Troy, both for, uh, like the sake of the war, but also for Philoctetes own sake, which is to go to Troy.

In the end, I think that he should go with Neoptolemus. I don’t think that abandoning him on the island, or maybe there is, like, the third option of them running away to an island together and just, I don’t know, living out their merry days in righteousness. But it’s, it’s what makes this argument kind of hard for me, because when it comes to who constructs the better argument, um, I’m 100 percent with Philoctetes, if that makes sense.

necessarily been made obvious yet. Um, I, I find his arguments to appeal both to the emotion and logic in a kind of nice and mixed manner. Instead of the optolemus, who just kind of sounds like he’s fed up, which makes it a lot harder, like, even though he does raise valid points, it makes it a lot harder to kind of sympathize with his points.

And the other thing with Philictides is Fuse. Really quite clever at the end here. Um, because as I mentioned, he doesn’t just rely on the pity Neoptolemus has for him, but also tries to arouse NE’s own ign in indignation at the Keyan, which forges a bond of mutual victimhood between the two of them. Like whatever go, whatever the choice is, they’re in this together.

And I think that is just a really, really powerful um. statement to make, and there’s also to be held the fact that Felictides, his argument comes second, he gets the last laugh, and that does have power in a debate.

[00:12:13] Caroline: Yeah, Felictides is definitely already such a wonderful rhetorician, but that placement really does, you’re right, it definitely does highlight his arguments.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, obviously, Felictides, he’s using a lot of arguments at his disposal, and he’s making valid points. All of these people have hurt them so much, and They really probably shouldn’t be helping them, but Neoptolemus, I think, is right in the end, but I don’t know if that’s just because we know how it plays out, where we know that they will defeat the Trojans with the bow, so I wonder if we take the ending out of the equation, if we would still stay the same, where Neoptolemus is the one who is right morally, because I feel like in the middle of this, It seems like Philotides is the one who is right, and Philotides is the one we should listen to.

But that’s just my opinion, so.

[00:13:01] Kristen: And it’s also, these are just small excerpts. I, these aren’t even necessarily the full arguments that they make. They’re just small passages. And throughout the entire course of the play, Even us, translating in class, we’re starting to get really, really fed up with Philoctetes.

Uh, it is not to say that Neoptolemus’s, uh, what was the word I used earlier? Frustration, or just, like, being fed up with him, um, is unwarranted. It’s completely warranted.

[00:13:31] Caroline: Definitely. So, both are kind of, both are definitely in grey ambiguous areas, so. But it’s just interesting to think about which one is more convincing, and which one we think would be right, hypothetically.

Thank you so much for joining, Kristen. Do you have anything else to add, or? No, just thank you very much for having me. Alright, so now we are going to talk about my experience teaching before we move on to the end. So, I really love teaching. I want to be a teacher, so this is like my ideal day. I liked getting to set the agenda and decide what we were going to talk about.

I also really enjoyed hearing the class discuss a question that I have in the reading, and then leading them as we delve deeper into that discussion. From my experience, I think that giving the class a chance to choose what passages they wanted to translate, and then letting them explain what they got from that passage really helped that experience.

That element of free choice really made them more interested in learning and more invested. But yeah, overall, it was such a great experience. I really loved it. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for Season 4, Episode 7 of Musings in Greek Literature. My name is Caroline Yang, and next week, Dr.

Deborah Beck will return as your host. Feel free to comment or like this if you enjoyed the podcast, and have an amazing day!