Episode 08: Dave Plymale – Remember Goliad!

[00:00:00] Andrew: Schooling is one of the few experiences majority of Americans share. Yet how much do we really know what goes on behind the scene? And what’s up with cafeteria lunches? I team up with developmental psychologist David Yeager to explore the personal side of education by speaking with superintendents.

I’m Andrew Kim, and I consider myself an accidental superintendent for the past 15 years. So grab your lunch money, and And welcome to Lunch Duty.

All right, Dave. Welcome to Lunch Duty. I appreciate you joining me

[00:00:38] Dave: today. Thank you, Andrew. It’s an honor to be here with the great Andrew Kim.

[00:00:44] Andrew: Don’t say that now. so we have Dave Plymouth, a former superintendent of Goliad and Trinity ISD. Those are the two school districts that I know of. But Dave and I have known each other for some time.

I’ve always admired, uh, his gentlemanly, attitude, his always welcoming attitude, uh, his support, and certainly, uh, the fact that he would always take my phone calls. And so he is now here in my traveling studio. Uh, Dave, so That’s going to talk about your past. Okay. I want to know about Goliad and Trinity.

anywhere else you’ve been as superintendent?

[00:01:26] Dave: My very first job was at a little, uh, district in region 13, which is actually where I first met you. Yeah, that’s right. Wilder ISD in Gonzales County. which had about 300 students and, uh, I met you at Region 13 and I’d heard about Maynard New Tech High School, and that’s when I started bending your ear to learn more about, uh, innovation that you were doing within your district, which, uh, you were a great influence on me and some things that I wanted to bring to my district.

to help improve student opportunities and student outcomes. Are you serious? I’m serious. I’m not, I’m not, and I’m not paying you for this. No, this is true. Well,

[00:02:12] Andrew: I do remember, us getting together and talking about some of that work. And, uh, what, what was, uh, important to you on that time

[00:02:24] Dave: period? I was looking for different ways To engage students in learning, uh, rather than traditional methods.

And, technology, a lot of schools were implementing technology. Some were doing it poorly. Yeah. And I didn’t want to do anything poorly when it came to, to innovation. Yeah. And, the ideas that, uh, you share with me and that, uh, I can see that, uh, were implemented in Maine or were beneficial to, to, to me and to my district.

And making sure that we were going to do things the correct way. Yeah.

[00:03:04] Andrew: Well, it was a really, interesting time. I think we did a lot of great work, of course. but now in that small school district, or it really isn’t small. It’s, it’s, uh, about to grow. Don’t you think,

[00:03:17] Dave: Walder Einstein? It’s growing a little bit.

It grew at the time that I was there and it’s continued to grow. Uh, There’s some people that are commuting to Austin for work now because they came to Welder and the land was cheaper for them to settle in. And some of them wanted to have a smaller school for their students, thought it was better for them.

[00:03:39] Andrew: So, how did you decide? So you became a superintendent for that school district. I mean, what, uh, what, uh, was it a nudge by a, a friend of yours, a mentor of yours, or did you grow up wanting to be a doctor, superintendent, lawyer? I mean, what, what, what, what was the, uh, the

[00:03:57] Dave: calculus here? Well, my dad was a businessman, so I grew up all over the country as he kept moving up the corporate ladder.

And I, I guess I broke his heart when I didn’t want to go major in business, and I thought, I wanted to be a teacher. I’m sure he’s very,

[00:04:14] Andrew: was very proud

[00:04:15] Dave: of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he, he supported me in, in what I wanted to do. And so, growing up all over the country, I used that experience, uh, because I majored in, or minored in geography, because I wanted to be a geography teacher.

And, uh, so I had accumulated a lot of slides growing up, both from what I took and what my parents took and my grandparents. And, uh, of course naturally there was a teacher that, uh, influenced me, uh, to become a, a, a teacher. Yeah. That it’s, there’s obviously that, uh, the relationship that the teacher developed with all of the students, including myself, uh, played a huge role in why I wanted to be an educator.

[00:04:58] Andrew: What was so impressive about that teacher that you wanted to become a teacher? Was it just the fact that, uh, this teacher had a lot of fun with you or, I mean, what,

[00:05:05] Dave: what was the impression? They made learning fun. Yeah. Uh, and so, I was engaged in, in classes, uh, one, one of the things in growing up and going from state to state, uh, with different curriculums, I began to struggle in one particular subject, which, with, with a fellowship of.

Utilizing the science of engagement where we’re targeting math teachers and math was a subject that I struggle with. Is that right? Yes, sir. Yeah, and my dad put me in tutoring And that didn’t work and it wasn’t until I was in an algebra class That that teacher took, uh, uh, a special interest in me and said that I’m going to teach.

What was the name of the teacher? Her name was Ms. Thompson.

[00:05:49] Andrew: Ms. Thompson. Yeah. Well, we’ve got to definitely do a shout out honor her

[00:05:53] Dave: quite a bit. I don’t know if she’s still alive, but she took a special interest in me and. I went from, uh, making not so good grades to making A’s and B’s. Is that right? Yeah, all because of her.

So,

[00:06:05] Andrew: you wanted to become a teacher as a result of her, Ms. Thompson? Result

[00:06:08] Dave: of her and also, uh, Uh, a geography teacher, uh, Coach Clack.

[00:06:15] Andrew: Oh yeah? Where was this at? This was in Kansas City, Missouri. Kansas City, Missouri. So you became a teacher. I became a teacher. And then what, uh, got you into this thinking about becoming an administrator?

I mean, how did that happen?

[00:06:28] Dave: There is two administrators in Abilene ISD. Okay, in West Texas. In West Texas. One was, uh, Charles Huntley, who is our superintendent.

[00:06:39] Andrew: Yeah, Charles gets mentioned a lot, by the way. Does he? Yeah, I think he’s inspired a lot of

[00:06:44] Dave: folks. He is the best speaker and motivator that I had ever heard.

Is that right? Yeah. I

[00:06:51] Andrew: know of him, I have never met him.

[00:06:54] Dave: Yeah, he, uh, passed away a few years ago. He ended up retiring from Abilene. Then he came out of retirement, was at a superintendent, some small district near, uh, Wichita Falls. And when he was at a conference in Dallas, uh, stopping to get fuel, uh, Some people, I believe, mugged him and hurt him.

Is that right? And, uh, he died, uh, shortly, shortly afterwards. Oh, no, gosh,

[00:07:21] Andrew: that’s terrible. That’s terrible. I didn’t know that. Yeah. Well, what was it, what was inspiring, that, uh, I mean, how were you inspired by him? Let’s honor, let’s

[00:07:32] Dave: honor that. The very first convocation I went to, when I first came to Abilene High, when he spoke during that convocation, He was so motivating.

I just decided right then that that’s what I want to be like him. You want to be on the stage? I want, I don’t know. I didn’t know. I didn’t know I wanted to be on

[00:07:51] Andrew: stage, but I decided. Yeah, but he was on the stage though, Dave. He was on stage. Yeah. So, but, uh, I mean, did you know much about the superintendency to know what he was doing?

Other than the fact that he was giving a great speech, obviously inspiring speech sounds

[00:08:02] Dave: like. I had no idea everything that he did. I know,

[00:08:05] Andrew: but so you somehow decided to pursue that. Yeah, I

[00:08:08] Dave: did. and his door was always open. I’d stop by and go talk with him every now and then. Was

[00:08:14] Andrew: it, uh, was it, were you excited about doing the work or was it that you wanted to emulate him perhaps?

What do you

[00:08:19] Dave: think? How would you answer that? I guess you would say it was more emulate him. Yeah. Because I felt he was motivating and as a teacher and I was a coach at the time I wanted to use some tools that he had to be able to motivate students better.

[00:08:33] Andrew: So in many ways, I mean, because, I’ll tell you this, I mean, I came up, I wanted to be just like my mentor in many ways, I still have some hair.

He doesn’t have any hair, but, uh, I, I wanted to be like, uh, Ron Kalos. uh, I, I needed a guy like him in my life to, to do this job. It’s hard enough,

[00:08:55] Dave: as Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that Mr. Huntley told me said, if you want to do this work right now, what’s your, what I’m doing.

You have an, you can influence the 30 kids in your room. You got an influence, 120 students during the day. Cause that’s how many you have during the classes that you have. It goes, you become a principal, then you get to influence a whole campus, but you become a superintendent. You can influence a whole community.

And, uh, I took that to heart. And, uh, so you were,

[00:09:29] Andrew: you liked that challenge. I liked that challenge. And why did you like that challenge? Cause that seems daunting when I, Think about it and, and actually reflect on that. That’s a pretty daunting challenge there, Dave.

[00:09:40] Dave: I just, uh, I like, I like talking with people.

I like that. You do.

[00:09:45] Andrew: The listeners don’t know, man. You do talk quite a bit. You

[00:09:47] Dave: talk to me all the time. Not as much as, not as much as you I still look up to

[00:09:52] Andrew: you. No, don’t say that. Come on now. But, uh, so you, you want that challenge, uh, you want it to, uh, change the community. You want to, uh, influence in a positive

[00:10:01] Dave: way.

I want, yeah, positive way is the correct term. You weren’t scared of that. I wasn’t scared. No,

[00:10:08] Andrew: really. And, and, and, I mean, and did you, well, I mean, let’s, I mean, I think you’ve done great work, but uh, do you feel like you’ve accomplished that?

[00:10:19] Dave: I feel I have. Uh, at uh, Welder, we had some challenges there and we got, we got through them.

We accomplished some good things. We improved student outcomes. Yep. Uh, uh, we did some things with facilities that were best for the, for the community. Uh, Trinity, the same thing with, uh, did, great work with the staff there that we were able to improve student outcomes. Trinity is

[00:10:42] Andrew: Trinity ISD.

[00:10:43] Dave: Trinity ISD, yes sir, over near Huntsville. Yep. Not Trinity U. Right, right. And then at Goliad, uh, we were able to accomplish some, some fantastic things there also. Uh, learning some things from you that I did at Maynard. STEM education was important, uh, for, uh, for, I think it’s important for us as leaders.

To, uh, to, uh, advocate for that, for opportunities for kids, uh, given what, uh, uh, the opportunities in the job market right now and promoting STEM education. So, uh, at all the districts I was superintendent at, STEM education was important. We were able to implement some things at all three school

[00:11:26] Andrew: districts.

you’re, you’re natural at asking questions and, I’ve never seen you being afraid of interacting with people, especially if you want to learn more. I’ve seen you reach out and so on. what, what, what is it about you think that, uh, you are able to do that? And, without, uh, worrying about, what people may think of you in terms of like, Hey, here’s a superintendent, you should know all these stuff, but, uh, you always came in as a, Hey, I don’t know this stuff.

So let me ask him what, what, what gave you that confidence to do that? You think?

[00:12:05] Dave: Well, As a leader, you can’t pretend that you know everything because the minute you start pretending that you know the answer to something, when you don’t, people can read right through you.

[00:12:15] Andrew: You think?

[00:12:17] Dave: And I’m the type of person, if I don’t know, I’m going to find out the answer.

And I feel for, for my personal growth, it’s important for me to ask other leaders like yourself, like Mr. Huntley, uh, questions to help my growth, uh, so I can become a better leader, similar to, to you and Mr. Huntley. Well, and

[00:12:38] Andrew: maybe I’m, I’m not, I’m really asking the great question. I’m just trying to figure out like, what is it that you think you have, I mean, do you eat spinach a lot or something?

You know what I mean? I mean, what is it that you think that you, that, that’s about you? Is it just something that you just always growing up to really seek out that type of information and, personally grow like that? Because I’ve, I’ve definitely have known you as someone who is not shy about saying, Hey, I don’t know that stuff.

Let me learn it. And I mean, you’re well versed in some technology stuff that I’m, I don’t want anyone to learn about, for example.

[00:13:12] Dave: Well, I just, uh, I feel it’s important when you meet somebody and you start to develop and nurture the relationship that you build that trust and part of trust is not breaking that trust.

And that’s why if you don’t know the answer, then. Uh, I feel it’s important. Let me, let me, let me do some more research on that and I’ll get back with you. Yeah. Uh, trust is, trust and being honest with people is most critical thing and in relationships and being a leader. Yeah. No, you’re

[00:13:39] Andrew: right about that.

when you, uh, interact, uh, with, uh, with your staff, especially, how are you able to, I mean, were you able to apply that same principle with your staff and, uh, really grow them and work with them? I mean, how. And how would you characterize that?

[00:13:57] Dave: Well, I hope I was. Uh, again, in developing relationships with your, with the staff, making sure that you’re transparent, that you, you’re being honest with people, so that they trust you.

It is critical to make sure that your staff is performing up to expectations. That, uh, meet the vision and values of the district.

[00:14:24] Andrew: How do you, how do you, have a level of expectation at the same time maintaining that trust? How did you do that? How did you balance that out?

[00:14:31] Dave: I’m still learning. Yeah. I’m still learning.

Well,

[00:14:36] Andrew: and was there routines and different things that you did on a regular basis that demonstrated that, you

[00:14:41] Dave: think? I think being visible, uh, being out, uh, on campuses is critical. So that people know you’re just not sitting in an office, uh, and you’re, they see you coming in and out of the hallways, in and out of the, uh, classrooms, and visiting with them.

And not just talking about, the curriculum or what, what are they teaching today, but asking about their families and talking to them more on a personal basis.

[00:15:11] Andrew: I think that relationship definitely matters. Uh, what did you do with all that information? once you kind of gather.

All the different nuances of what’s going on in the classroom, whether it’s teaching or personally. Hey, how’s your family doing? I mean, did you do anything with that? I mean, did you, was it beyond just relationship building? Was it valuable in other ways by any chance?

[00:15:33] Dave: It was valuable to me as a, as a leader, uh, that I could develop those type of relationships and then follow up with the staff members.

how’s your, how’s your kid doing? You said they were sick last week. How’s And, uh, how did your lesson go that day? You said you were trying something new. You were, uh, in, uh, introducing, uh, uh, a new lesson that day. Just doing some follow up with ’em. That way they, they, they feel that you care about ’em, which, uh, I want, uh, I want staff to feel that, uh, I care about them and not only what they’re doing professionally, but also what they’re doing personally.

Surely

[00:16:09] Andrew: like me, you. You heard or you saw some things that were necessarily exactly the way you would like to have seen them going in the classroom, whether it’s an instruction or teaching or, resource using or whatever it might be. how much of that frustrated you or did it frustrate

[00:16:29] Dave: you? Well, there’s, there’s more than one way to deliver, uh, to deliver a lesson.

And, uh, it’s, results matter. And, uh, if I had to be open minded about how they were delivering instruction, but I’d also have to talk with their campus leader and campus administration to ask them about how they were doing and following up with their campus administrator to see what the outcomes are.

So you have to be a little bit open minded. And if there’s something not working, well, We need to get it fixed

[00:17:05] Andrew: So you put that on the principals to take care of

[00:17:08] Dave: me. How’s their campus?

[00:17:11] Andrew: Well, so And and I think that’s the the hard part about well the easy Well, I don’t wanna say easy part but trying to let people do their jobs and coming in once in a while or really getting a, what Malcolm Gladwell talks about, a thin slice to see what’s going on and then making a generalization about what’s going on totality.

It’s a very difficult thing, I think, as many times I’ve done the walkthroughs or gone over there, do I fully, I’ll always ask myself, do I fully understand and know what’s going on in that classroom? You know what I mean? That was always a question for me. and I, and I, I think I try to create systems to better understand that as much as possible.

so that there’s not some sense of randomness about teaching in some sense. I don’t know if that makes sense. Resonates with you

[00:18:06] Dave: or not? Yeah, that makes sense. What I really enjoyed was I see a great lesson and a great teacher and I want to go by there more often because I wanted to learn from that teacher.

Yeah,

[00:18:19] Andrew: yeah. it just the tendency sometimes is that we tend to go see the best and sometimes we don’t want to see the ones that are maybe struggling because it’s almost oh my gosh, maybe a little too frustrating to do that maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s human nature, human behavior or not.

[00:18:36] Dave: Well, probably a little bit of human nature, but it’s also a chance where we do what we can to try and, uh, help support those teams that are struggling.

[00:18:46] Andrew: did you enjoy the superintendency? I did. You did. And why’d you enjoy it?

[00:18:52] Dave: It goes back to what Mr. Huntley said to me. You got a chance to make a difference in a whole community.

And looking at that bigger, bigger picture and being a superintendent, uh, and, uh, The things that are involved in the, the challenge that you have. Uh, I enjoyed it. Uh, I didn’t shy away from it. Uh, and it just, uh, it’s just something that I

[00:19:15] Andrew: love. So what do you, uh, and I don’t know if the listeners know, but, uh, you’ve been retired now for how long?

Four

[00:19:21] Dave: years, four years

[00:19:23] Andrew: of retirement. what do you miss about it?

[00:19:27] Dave: Uh, I missed the daily interaction. And, uh, Andrew, you know how superintendents is, you make a plan that you’re going to do one day and you get to the office and that plan is going out the window. Uh, yeah, most of the time. Yeah, most of the time, because there’s things to pop up during the day.

And, uh, I just, uh, I just, I just like the, the daily challenges of it. And so what I’m, what I miss about it during the, during the four years I missed the, the daily interaction with, with the, uh. Yeah, you

[00:20:00] Andrew: missed that. What do you miss about that, Dave?

[00:20:04] Dave: Uh, it’s like what Nick Saban is going through right now in retirement.

You go from going a hundred miles an hour every day as a superintendent to where all of a sudden you’re retired And now you’re trying to slow down to the school zone of 20 miles an hour

[00:20:22] Andrew: Are you able to slow down you think? Because you’ve been

[00:20:24] Dave: pretty busy. I’ve been pretty busy he said retire, but you know you and I we’re really not retired

[00:20:31] Andrew: Yeah, no, I think both of us are too young to

[00:20:34] Dave: retire, right?

Both of us have our hands in a few things to where we’re staying actively involved in some capacity. Yeah. Whether it’s coaching or mentoring other administrators or leaders to doing some things like we’re doing with the FUSE program at the University of Texas at Austin.

[00:20:53] Andrew: Yeah. Well, what do you not miss about the job?

[00:20:58] Dave: Uh, I guess I don’t, uh, I don’t miss talking with, well, I don’t miss talking with lawyers.

[00:21:12] Andrew: I think I would agree with You agree with that? Yeah, yeah, that’s a part of the job that a lot of people don’t seem to maybe

[00:21:21] Dave: know. And I guess one of the biggest things I don’t miss, I don’t miss hearing every year that we don’t have, we don’t, the state, we don’t have any money.

[00:21:33] Andrew: Yeah, what do you not like about that?

[00:21:35] Dave: Well, we need to fund our public schools. Sure. And, uh, we’re not funding them at the levels that we’re capable of.

[00:21:44] Andrew: So, you, you, you would agree with a lot of the sentiment out there about that. I

[00:21:49] Dave: do. we’re, we’re trying to fund our, with the funds we’re getting, we got one hand tied behind our back.

Yeah. And, uh, We need to be able to fund our public schools in a manner that meets the needs of our students to be

[00:22:04] Andrew: successful. But that’s something you don’t miss. You don’t miss talking about that. Is that what it

[00:22:08] Dave: is? I don’t, well, I don’t miss the challenge when it comes to budget time. And we’re in budget time right now, all of our schools are, whether they have a July 1 fiscal year or September 1.

So everyone’s working on their budgets. And so those, that grind that you go through between now and budget adoption, yeah, uh, and having one hand tied behind your back, I don’t miss that.

[00:22:33] Andrew: Yeah, no, you have to make some tough decisions, uh, whether it’s a positions or teacher salaries or, uh, cutting out some, uh, extracurricular programs that’s beneficial to some

[00:22:43] Dave: students.

And that’s what we’re hearing from all the superintendents. We. Uh, everyone is looking to have to cut staff or cut programs because of a lack of funds. Yeah.

[00:22:55] Andrew: Well, I think, uh, the job has certainly, I think, changed even in a very short amount of time. Especially after coming out of the pandemic.

at least that’s just my thoughts. I mean, what have you seen, changes out there with how you were, how you came up to the ranks, if you will, to become a superintendent, to what today is like? I mean, you see any difference there or you see the same?

[00:23:23] Dave: Well, Andrew, you and I both. I became superintendent about the same time, back around 2000, 2005, somewhere in there.

Yeah, you’re exactly right. And you think about the changes in education that’s happened over the last 24 years. A lot has. It’s amazing. It really is amazing. Yeah. So, uh, the challenges have changed. Uh, have they changed for the better? And I think, uh, what our students are doing and doing in classes right now is amazing compared to what we were doing 24 years ago.

Would you agree with

[00:23:57] Andrew: that? I do. I think, uh, I think that we know, I mean, every year, every day, we know more about, we know more about. education. We know more about teaching. We know more about instruction, uh, or we ought to, than any other time in the past. And, I think, uh, whether or not we use that information and coordinate them well, that might be a question.

However, I do think that we are knowledgeable about so much more than, especially when I came up through the

[00:24:30] Dave: ranks. I agree. education is constantly evolving, just like we are as people, we continue to grow no matter what age we are. And education is going to continue to evolve.

[00:24:43] Andrew: Yeah. Well, and, so do you see the superintendency still being very important to that, uh, Mr.

Hundley’s, uh, principles and philosophy that, uh, it still matters a lot to be able to change communities and, and so forth. Do you still see that superintendency is that important?

[00:25:04] Dave: I do. I mean, it’s the most important leadership role in a school district. And I think, uh, as we continue to evolve, our systems continue to evolve.

The principles behind leadership do not change that much. You still have the opportunity to grow and make a difference in a, in a, in a school system, in a campus, in a community.

[00:25:27] Andrew: Dave, just to finish out, this is a podcast is called lunch duty because, I just think that anybody who’s done.

Any job in education has done at least a time period of lunch duty or we’ve all, we all had done some lunch duty assignments in this, uh, in this roles that we all played. And I think it’s always, just, it’s, it’s a good story to kind of keep up

[00:25:51] Dave: with some of that. I like the title. Did you do lunch duty?

Uh, many

[00:25:55] Andrew: times. My fondest memory, uh, were at North Dallas High School in the Dallas Independent School District. When I was a young assistant principal there, and, lunch duty was, uh, I mean, it was, it was control. Chaos. Yeah. But, at the same time though, boy, I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun interacting with students there at North Dallas High School.

Yeah. Home of the Bulldogs. Yeah. But what about

[00:26:20] Dave: you? I, I loved it. Abilene High, I had lunch duty with Big Henry Willis, big Henry Willis, big Henry Willis. He was my assistant baseball coach. He was also, uh. One of the assistant football coaches. And, uh, Big Henry was about 6’6 And, uh, I learned, I learned a lot from him.

Because I never had lunch duty until I did that year at Abilene High. So, yeah, you’re right. You get to interact with students at a, in a different setting. And, uh, so that, that’s, that’s a, that’s a good experience.

[00:26:55] Andrew: when you mentioned, uh, uh, Big Henry, uh, it reminds me at North Dallas High School, the guy that I worked with, uh, was the, uh, sort of the head of security back in the day.

his name was, uh, well, he just went by Mr. Thornton. Ryan Thornton was his name. Great guy. and he could command rooms and hallways like no other. and I really appreciated, uh, him and the other folks that, uh, were part of that group. Uh, the, there’s CJ, BJ, uh, and several others that were just really fantastic.

And, yeah, that, uh, that was fun interacting with those guys, uh, working with the students there. So,

Big

[00:27:42] Dave: Henry. Big Henry, we did not have any fights during lunch day when Big Henry was there. And, uh, now his son’s gone into teaching. Is that right? Henry Willis Jr., he’s a teacher and a coach in the Metroplex.

Is that right? He and I are Twitter buddies, or ex buddies. Oh my gosh, are you serious?

[00:27:59] Andrew: You guys, you’re doing tweets and all that? Oh

[00:28:01] Dave: my gosh, Dave. Is it tweets or is it X? I had no

[00:28:04] Andrew: idea. I don’t do that anymore. Uh, I did that, of course, on the job, but I don’t do that anymore. But, uh, well, I’ll tell you what.

shout out to Mr. Huntley. Mr. Huntley. Miss Ferguson. Miss Ferguson.

[00:28:15] Dave: And Big Henry. Ms. Thompson, Ms. Ferg. Yeah. And Big Henry. Yeah.

[00:28:19] Andrew: Absolutely. Well, Dave, thanks for joining, uh, Lunch Duty here. Thanks for the podcast. And always, uh, once again, uh, your dear friend, I appreciate you very much. Thank you, Andrew.

Lunch Duty is produced by David Yeager and me, Andrew Kim. We thank the Lates Development Studio and the Texas Behavioral Science and Policy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin for their support. Thank you for listening and please join us. For our next episode of Lunch Duty.