Episode 07: Dr. Stacy Johnson and Dr. Tracy Canter – Two Supt, Two Sisters.

[00:00:00] Andrew: Schooling is one of the few experiences majority of Americans share. Yet how much do we really know what goes on behind the scene? And what’s up with cafeteria lunches? I team up with developmental psychologist David Yeager to explore the personal side of education by speaking with superintendents.

I’m Andrew Kim, and I consider myself an accidental superintendent for the past 15 years. So grab your lunch money. And welcome to lunch duty

Well, listen, I appreciate you guys joining lunch duty our podcast here at et austin It is so amazing to meet both of youat the same time, it’s truly awesome to meet two sisters Who are both? Equally in the, in your own rights, great superintendents of school districts here in Texas. That is pretty amazing.

And when I started to get to know you guys, I was like, I must somehow captured you guys and your, your history. The reason why you became a superintendent. how are you doing that? Does it help after Christmas, dinners, all the events and family get togethers or is it, does it hurt that? I don’t know, but let’s just start with this.

I’ll want the listeners to know who you guys are are. So we have Tracy canter. Who is the superintendent at Germantown Independent School District, and we also have Dr. Stacey Johnson at Banketti Independent School District. So both of you guys, I appreciate you guys making the time for this podcast.

So, who is the oldest? I mean, how does that work with you guys? And who is the youngest?

[00:01:53] Stacy: I would be the oldest.

[00:01:56] Andrew: All right. All right. So, well, then why don’t we go with, so how was, well, tell me, you know, you guys grew up in west Texas and, how’d you guys, was education an important, thing for you guys growing up?

[00:02:11] Stacy: Well, actually we grew up a little everywhere. our dad was a pipeliner and so we moved quite a bit. Right. attended nine different schools, somewhere in there, like our sixth grade year and three different schools, our ninth grade year and ended in Odessa.and plays educators. Well, we now have another cousin that is an educator.

but educational is always very important to our parents. And they regard, especially with this moving, we had to always fill in the gaps for ourselves. And we always had to have good grade. And if we didn’t, there were consequences.

[00:02:54] Andrew: Oh, wow. Back in the day, it’s good old

[00:02:56] Tracy: days. Yeah, it was never a question of if we were going to college, it was always, where are we going to college?

[00:03:04] Stacy: Is

[00:03:04] Andrew: that right? Now, just to, just to kind of get to know you guys, it wasn’t your mom or your dad’s, desires for that, or was it just both? I guess sounds like. Maybe both in our case.

[00:03:17] Tracy: Yeah. So, it, it was, it was mainly, my mom, my dad was gone a lot and so when we finally stayed in one area for a while, my mom was a major contributor to that.

And, you know, I have fond memories of having conversations about school, but also of, reading. My mom instilled a great love of reading for us. And so we always look forward to summer and we lived out in the country. So going into town to the library was the highlight of the week and we’d get new books and we’d have conversations about those.

So really my mom did, but my dad has an extremely, he has a really wonderful work ethic and he always said, if you’re going to do something, do it. Right. And so the combination of both of our parents together was wonderful.

[00:04:03] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Stacy, what’d you think?

[00:04:07] Stacy: Yeah, it wasn’t until later in life that we really realized that college was never, like, do you want to go?

Like, it was always, what are you going to do? Or where are you going to go? And that didn’t seem strange to us. And in saying that, it also wasn’t a pressure. It was just like, that’s the next step. And so it wasn’t like you’re being forced into doing something because they let us have that choice or that direction.

It

[00:04:35] Andrew: Yeah. So how did, I mean, obviously you guys went into education, was education a big focus in terms of getting into a profession? was it something different? Like did you guys want to go into law enforcement or, you know, maybe a construction or oil and gas industry? I mean, how did, how did, how did education

[00:04:53] Stacy: come about?

Actually different for both of us. I knew from very early on that I wanted to be a teacher and I always joke, we used to play school growing up. And I always joke that I got my patient as a teacher from my sister, cause she was not a good student ever listened to me during when we played. I got my patient dealing with her.

So I knew very early that, being a teacher is what I wanted to do.

[00:05:24] Andrew: Tracy, what about you then? What do you want to do?

[00:05:27] Tracy: Yeah. So as a twin, everybody expects you to, do the same thing, right? So I kind of fought against that at first. my mother became a nurse and everybody in our family is in healthcare.

So I thought, you know what, I’m going to try that out. And I took one semester of health classes and anatomy and physiology and said, this is not for me. And so I just kind of said You know what? It’s okay. It’s okay that we’re doing the same thing. And, I’ve never looked

[00:05:55] Stacy: back.

[00:05:56] Andrew: Wow. Now, obviously then you guys matriculated into education as teachers, like I did.

And then how, how did this administration work, the Superintendent of Tennessee come about? Because having not only sisters, but twin sisters, It’s gotta be the, I mean, in Texas, I mean, you guys have the, probably the only combination of twin sisters being superintendents.so how

[00:06:21] Stacy: did that come about?

Trace, you want to start on this one?

[00:06:25] Tracy: Sure. So, I got into teaching, I was, I graduated college when I was 21, got my first job, when school started, I was 22. So I’ve been in this profession a long time, started teaching, loved it, loved working with the kids and you would look around at some of the other classes or, around you and you would think, you know what, I’m They could be doing just a little bit more.

and my dad was real big on if you’re going to complain about something, do something about it. So I decided I would go back and get my master’s degree, become a principal. And, same thing, you get into the principalship and you look around and you go, dadgummit, you know, there are a little few more things that we could probably do to make it better.

[00:07:06] Andrew: Stacey, same with you. Is that, how did that come about?

[00:07:09] Stacy: Actually, pretty much the same thing. Like when I got into education, I’d always wanted to be a teacher. Teaching is what I did. My ultimate goal is that I wanted to start in elementary, as a teacher and then go into secondary teaching and then retire at, a university as a professor teaching, and so.

Always been what I had wanted to do and exactly like what she said you didn’t do a lot of complaining or fussing around the house because You fix it. If it’s broken, you fix it. If something needs addressed, you address it. And so, and I’m sure every administrator can say this, that every piece along the way, you’re like, Oh, you know what?

That really hinders teachers from being able to do their job because of this or this. And it’s stuff that as administrators they’re doing. And so you move into that next role and that next role and then exactly Absolutely was like that. and then Tracy always was like a year or two ahead of me. I don’t know if it was, I was letting her figure out if the walk a before I jumped in or what, but as a teacher, she was a year ahead of me, even though I started out that way.

and then as principal and at the district level and superintendent, she was, a year or two ahead of me and all of those. So

[00:08:34] Andrew: she became a superintendent. We did.

[00:08:36] Stacy: Yes. Yep. She was in Iran two years before, I started one. No, one. It’s one or two years. I think it’s, but then a few years ago I found the quote that just summed up exactly what she and I had been talking about.

And it comes from very unlikely source with Lily Tomlin. And she said, I always wondered why somebody didn’t do something about it. And then I realized I was somebody. And so that’s perfectly encapsulates mine. And I, I feel confident to say Tracy’s, educational career and to each step that we’ve taken.

[00:09:19] Andrew: Well, you know, Stacy, you know, I think that in many ways though, those of us who’ve been in education and classroom teaching for a while, I think a lot of folks feel that sense of urge or frustration about doing more. but there must have been something though, for you to like both sisters, right, going, want to go up a level to be a, the top of the, I mean, I mean, the superintendency is, you know, and I know it’s not, it’s not an easy to get the job, first of all, I mean, the job is hard enough, but it’s easy.

It’s not hard to, I mean, it’s, it’s not easy to get the job. It’s not something you just apply, get it. It’s such a political mess to it, to getting the job. Right. So for you guys to actually. Yeah. For you guys to actually pursue that, that must’ve been some push. I mean, what was that?

[00:10:08] Stacy: never quit. One of the things, you know, that even in 2024, we’ll just call a spade, a spade, a woman superintendent.

And so, both, Our first, like Tracy’s first district in Iran and mine here in Banquette, we’ve been the first female superintendent to begin with. And so I attribute a lot of that to, our, growing up. my dad, you know, and I may age us a little bit, but growing up in, you know, the seventies, there was an even bigger.

Between men and women and what was acceptable and what wasn’t acceptable. And we never got that from our parents, especially my dad. Like, if I know that if he had had a son out there, we were doing the same thing. And for example, when we got our license to drive, we had to physically going that we changed the time and we could change the oil on our car before.

Allowed us to back out of the garage. and it’s just also with him being gone a lot and mom being there, being there, if it was broken, we literally were the ones repairing it and fixing it. So we’ve never been allowed to be pigeonholed into just a silent, quiet little female stereotypical role back then.

and I think that that, I don’t know, grit has stayed with us through all of this and that anything hinders from it. In fact, the more challenging, the more I don’t know, energy and excitement we have towards it,

[00:12:06] Andrew: you know, trace, for the listeners, Tracy just joined us back. She’s on the road going towards Fredericksburg for a college friend.

So, but so Tracy, we were just talking about, what was the nudge? What was the extra push? like leading the classroom, leading the administration at the campus level. To seek out a superintendency, which is by the way, you know, you and I both know how hard it is to get the job, let alone do the job.

Well, you, so what was the, what was the drive for you that pushed you to Goal for the superintendency.

[00:12:40] Stacy: Oh,

[00:12:41] Tracy: goodness. A lot of things wanting more for your family, wanting more for your kids, wanting more for the kids in our neighborhood. and again, it goes back to something I kind of talked about earlier, just, just making a difference, you know, seeing something and, and knowing that.

If not you, then who, so it was difficult. And, nobody tells you, quite all of the stories about superintendency in school, do they, there are a lot of, things that, that you don’t quite encounter, in your, in your book

[00:13:13] Stacy: study.

[00:13:15] Andrew: Yeah. Stacy mentioned this because, you know, you guys are, when you, your first superintendent season, Ben Kitty, Arianne.

And now at Jernatan, these are traditionally superintendencies held by men. And did you guys have a good mentors that pushed you? Was it male mentors, female mentors, or just mentors in general that said, you know what? You can do this. You can become the 1st female superintendents of these school districts.

I mean, what was the mindset playing around

[00:13:47] Stacy: that issue?

[00:13:47] Tracy: You know what, that that’s an excellent question. and I would say it was both. I had some strong female mentors. Fortunately, it is hard to, to get a superintendency as a female, especially in West Texas. That was the first one ever in that school district.

I know Stacy was the first female superintendent in her school district. so unfortunately a lot of the. Strong mentors were not women because it becomes really competitive. And my experience, had been that, that the men around me, were really supportive and encouraged me to move that way. I did have one strong mentor.

she gave me my first administrator position and she was always a cheerleader for me. And she always would say, Oh, you can do this. If anybody can do this, you got it. and so I, I looked to her, That strength as well. And it doesn’t hurt having a twin sister dad gum it. If we have a bad day, I call her and say, how did you handle this situation?

You know, so, so it’s not nearly as lonely for us, I think, as it is for most superintendents.

[00:14:52] Andrew: Stacey, you feel the same way or you have the same

[00:14:54] Stacy: knowledge? Oh, absolutely. Definitely agree with that. you know, when I said I always let her go ahead, I was a little bit behind her. So she went into each field.

What a great mentor that I can call with no judgment. Because we know absolutely everything about one another and can, remind each other of our very strong personalities and how it’s perceived by others in a way that we don’t get offended from each other because we’re like, you know, when we walk in and we say this, here’s, They they’re not hearing that they’re hearing something very dominating and So I think tracy has been one.

My mom has been very great for us because she’s Lifelong lifestyle like she had started out. as a cosmetologist And I remember her going to school when we were in kindergarten. We had lots of perms by the way back then She would practiceand then Back in getting her LVM and that wasn’t enough.

So then she went back and she got her RN and that wasn’t enough. She went back and got that next step. And so we see her making those steps and doing those things. But within education, you always have. Wonderful mentors, both male and female, but I agree with Tracy and that sometimes it’s, and let’s be honest, a little more cutthroat on the female side and that there’s not the intimidation many times, and they’ll, they’ll hear and help you.

And, so I’ve enjoyed both female and male mentors.

[00:16:33] Andrew: You know, it’s interesting. Both of you guys are, I just appreciate you, your insight and honesty, because I will tell you that I think a lot of people perceive the superintendency being altruistic, educational, but there is a certain level of cutthroatness about the profession to some degree.

There is a sense of competition out there. these are very prized, you know, jobs, right? And they’re political jobs. And getting these Once again, I will just confess and say getting the job is difficult, let alone doing the job. I mean, you got to jump over a lot of hoops to get the job. And for you guys to done that, there is some, there is a uniqueness to what you guys have done.

And I’m really just fascinated by that. Did you guys both have search

[00:17:21] Stacy: firms doing the

[00:17:22] Tracy: jobs? I did not work with one for me. the search firms that were working for the school districts. So I,

[00:17:30] Stacy: I did it on my own.

[00:17:32] Andrew: Yo, Stacey, what about you?

[00:17:36] Stacy: No, there are, I didn’t work with a search firm. I was the search firm, Google, TASA, CareerNet, Texas ISD, just.

Looking at those and applying and applying, you know, one of the hardest things was just getting the interview because for 10 applications you sent out, you might get one call back. I don’t know if that’s, you know, in general or if it’s, specific to female, but yeah, just getting the interview alone, was difficult.

Tracy, you agree on that?

[00:18:13] Tracy: Oh, absolutely. And I would even say, you’re gonna, you’re gonna probably go to a lot of interviews, and understand that it’s a board of seven that are non educational people. So it’s making sure that you fit in that community. it’s so much more than just the educational and the finance and, and the accountability knowledge that we have.

We really have to make sure that we’re a good fit for the community and the community is a good fit for us. Yeah, yeah,

[00:18:43] Andrew: you’re right. You’re right. Makes it very difficult. Cece, you were going to say something?

[00:18:48] Stacy: No, just to continue and build on what she said is she’s right. You know, many times people think going to those interviews and not getting is a failure.

but just getting the interview was a success because how many people are even applying? Right, and so it just tells you just to keep plugging away keep putting it out there and know that When you do get the interview that you have been selected out of just a handful to even at that point but definitely finding a board that you click with And understanding that that board can change at any minute because one election

[00:19:31] Andrew: so let’s kind of pivot and talk about christmas holidays and thanksgivings You know, I could imagine that you guys either talk shop about school stuff all the time, or there’s a rule that we don’t talk about it.

How does that

[00:19:46] Tracy: work? We start out talking shop and then our husbands say, okay, guys, we’re not at work.

[00:19:54] Stacy: Can’t, can we

[00:19:55] Tracy: pump the brakes a little bit? but we do because, we’re really close. We, we talk every week. We talk usually, you know. two, three times a week and text every day. but that still doesn’t stop.

So vacations and those times that we’re together, we, we have those opportunities to kind of vent and let it go. And then, we can move on and, and enjoy our time.

[00:20:18] Stacy: about that. this last year we went on a trip and there were eight of us total. So four couples did like the turn. Well, before this trip, Tracy and I, I’m taking my email off my iPad and I’m taking it off my phone because we hadn’t had a real vacation away from work in years.

But as a superintendent, you think you have to check that email every five minutes. And that email keeps. of education going. So Tracy and I made a pact this last summer, and we took email off of our phone, off of our iPad. And we went on this trip, had a fantastic time, and we came back, and we had some flight problems in Newark.

So we’re sitting around Newark, and I’m like, well, maybe I ought to check and see how things are going. We’re back. So, you know. And I And I said, you know what? We haven’t talked about school one time on this trip and our friends go, Oh,

we tried to be very cognizant when others are around now, that we don’t just stay focused on education and that we make it more about our friends and our families, but you know, sometimes there’s something big that we still just have to. Discuss

[00:21:39] Tracy: and I think Stacy makes a extremely valid point. and it’s taken me many, many years to get to this point to be able to say, yeah, I need to take email off of my phone.

You have to make sure that you’re taking time for yourself and your family. There has to be a balance and some boundaries. Obviously, you’re going to work closely with your board and find out what those boundaries are. but it’s imperative that you step away sometimes and just do a little self help, and take care of you because when you’re not taking care of you, it starts to blur your why.

And you get muddled down in all of the, you know, the 5 percent of the issues when really we should be focused on that 95 percent that’s doing really great and we’re moving forward. So I think it’s imperative to keep yourself in a good frame of mind so that you can do a better job as a superintendent.

[00:22:32] Andrew: You know, both of you guys said something really insightful and it, it hit home with me about, and Tracy, you said a few minutes ago that the job is lonely. And the fact that you guys have each other, probably helps, combat that loneliness because it is awfully lonely to get the job as a superintendent.

And, and, and sounds like you guys really connect together.

[00:22:56] Stacy: Absolutely.

[00:22:57] Andrew: Yeah. Connect together to. So that the why is always there. That’s actually pretty unique about that for both of you guys.

[00:23:06] Stacy: It is,

[00:23:07] Tracy: and it’s what keeps us sane and keeps

[00:23:09] Stacy: us going. You know, the other thing about it, you know, the position being lonely all in of itself, Both.

Of our most recent educational history I’ve been in West Texas, and I am very South. I am seven hours from where I have all my education friends. And so when you come this far, you’re leaving your friends, your family, your co workers and colleagues that you had those close connections with. And you’re really even more alone.

So I think that we have one another in this and can call and do that is invaluable. Like a benefit that I sometimes worry about others that don’t have that because it is such a wonderful outlet. I

[00:23:58] Tracy: will say that we have a wonderful group. We have female superintendents across the state of Texas, that, that we have connected with other female leaders and in this role.

They really do help one another. There’s, we’re not competing for it. We’re, we’re already in the role. And so there’s a strong collaboration and camaraderie, among this female Texas, school

[00:24:22] Stacy: leaders. Absolutely. We have a. Sister soup group and, South Texas down here also. And there’s about seven or eight of us that get together.

[00:24:32] Andrew: Yeah. You guys told me about that. It’s like a very strong group and that that’s awesome. I will tell you, though, a lot of superintendents that I know don’t have that type of relationship with others in some sense, you know, I think, and I don’t, I’m not really sure if that’s natural to some people.

and I think, perhaps that could struggle as a result of that, you know? I mean, like I said, it’s a very isolating job that you have, you know, and all of us had, so, oh, I tell you what you guys are. You guys have an advantage, that, I certainly didn’t have, and that’s pretty awesome. It really is.

It’s very unique, it wouldn’t surprise me if you guys need to be featured in 16 minutes or something, you know, because of the documentary or something, because it’s very unique to find twin sisters, you know, as superintendents. so it’s really intriguing to me. And you guys are not only doing the job, but we’re exceeding and doing well.

And also in context where traditionally it’s a very male dominated, you know, situation, and so you guys are breaking all the rules in many ways. Well, you know, we like to always finish out by talking about a funny lunch duty story, if I think that any good administrator worth their salt has done some lunch duties.

I didn’t tell you all my lunch duty stories. Yeah, you guys are laughing. The listeners, you know, they don’t see you guys, but you guys are laughing about something. So, who wants to start?

[00:26:01] Stacy: Yeah,

[00:26:01] Tracy: I’ll start. you know, out of the mouths of babes, they’re, they’re absolutely the most honest kids. they will tell you things you don’t even want to know.

So we’re at lunch duty one day and I, and I’m working and I’m trying to learn everybody’s names. And so I’m, I’m at the cafeteria where they teach. You know, put in their number and, and they’re going through. And I had decided I was going to change the color of my hair and cut it some. and this kiddo comes up to me as he’s going through, he

[00:26:29] Stacy: goes, what did you do?

I said, well, he

[00:26:35] Tracy: goes, don’t ever do that again. You need to go back.

[00:26:39] Stacy: And I said, oh, oh,

[00:26:41] Tracy: okay. and for a week he would come up to me and ask me when I was going to change my hair back.

[00:26:48] Andrew: Oh my gosh. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. That’s great story. Where was that at Tracy?

[00:26:54] Tracy: That’s when I was in Odessa at Milam

[00:26:56] Andrew: Elementary.

Oh, nice. Nice. Stacey, what’s your story?

[00:27:01] Stacy: I had, it was probably the first week of school. And that’s when you’re doing lunch duty with kindergarten. And that’s always an event in and of itself. But I had this one precious little boy who happened to have the same first name and middle name as my dad. So I learned his name very quickly.

just as rotten as my dad. but I’m holding him and he’s just a bouncing all over. This is actually a more visual story. I just realized he’s bouncing all over the place. So I have his hand and I’m talking to him. Well, as I’m holding his hand, he’s literally trying to run around me with my hand still on there.

And then he starts acting like a piranha and he wants to come at me and just bite my legs everywhere. And I’m trying to hold him back and not let die laughing because of his facial expressions. And I got coming at me.

[00:28:00] Andrew: It’s so interesting. We all have these great stories and, there really are just tremendous.

funny, interesting stories, memorable stories as well, too. So I’ll tell you what, I really appreciate you guys sharing that with me, sharing your past. sounds like, you know, your dad and your mom, strong influence. What a great testament to both of them that you guys are at the top of the profession.

And that speaks well of your family and your, And, you know, even with all the moving around, you guys had really, maintained a sense of like absolutely family unit and that’s probably speaks a well to your, your parents. it sounds like your mom. And certainly your dad had a lot to do with that. So hopefully, that’s a legacy for them.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome to know. what was your dad’s name? Daryl Daryl and your mom’s name Cindy. Well, so we should dedicate this lunch city podcast episode to Daryl and Cindy. So there’ll be that. Well, listen, I appreciate you guys joining. I took, quite a bit of time. You guys are great.

So, amazing to meet you guys and I’ll come and see you guys soon. And, I’ll send you the link to the podcast and, just certainly share with your family and maybe have a, a good old time or with Thanksgiving. Maybe, you know, listen to it, but, I appreciate you guys. Tracy, have a safe trip to San Francisco.

Awesome. Okay. Bye bye. You guys take care. Okay. Bye bye. Lunch Duty is produced by David Yeager and me, Andrew Kim. We thank the Leitz Development Studio and the Texas Behavioral Science and Policy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin for their support. Thank you for listening and please join us for our next episode of Lunch Duty.