Traveling Abroad to Look Within: An Interview with Victor Sáenz about his Mexico Maymester

[00:00:00] Victor: The journey that we observed so many of our students take, you know, you could describe it as a heritage journey. And many actually, did they, they shared how they were compelled to do this course because they, it was an opportunity, one, to fulfill a degree requirement, let’s not forget that. But also it was an attractive way to do that because it allowed them to connect and maybe reconnect with their roots, their cultural roots.

And for so many of our young people that were in the class, you know, they maybe were. Born and raised on the border, or maybe one of the big cities in Texas. But you know, they really didn’t understand what Mexican day-to-day life was like. And the full expression of culture, tradition, religion, food, you know, uh, speech dialects, I mean, you name it.

[00:01:13] Roxanne: Hello, and thank you for listening to LatinXperts, a podcast out of Latino Studies. Here at the University of Texas at Austin, I am Roxanne Schroeder-Arce, Associate Dean of UTeach Fine Arts and an associate professor in the College of Fine Arts, and also an affiliate faculty member in Latino Studies and the Center for Mexican-American Studies.

And today, I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Victor Saenz about a Maymester program that’s a study abroad program called Latinx Identities across. Americas, which Victor has run in Puebla, Mexico for the last four years or over four years, uh, with his colleague Dr. Emmett Campos. So welcome, Victor.

[00:02:10] Victor: It’s great to be here, Roxanne. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:12] Roxanne: Yeah. I’ve been wanting to talk with you about this program for a long time and I’m really glad we get to chat today about it and I get to learn more. So, so Victor, I know you grew up in the Rio Grande Valley, um, specifically in La Jolla. Could you tell us a little bit more about your history and perhaps the journey to your passion for education and educating others about education?

[00:02:38] Victor: Well, thank you Roxanne, and thank you again to UT’s Latino studies, um, for hosting this podcast and for the opportunity to have this conversation. I am indeed born and raised in the Rio Grande Valley of South Texas. Uh, as the young people like to say, put oh 9 5 6, uh, I, uh, have been away from the valley for.

Most of my adult life. Uh, but you know, as they say, you can take the boy outta the valley, never the valley outta the boy. I’m a border kid through and through. And, uh, that’s a big part of my sort of upbringing and educational journey, uh, which you asked about. So I’m, uh, my father is a lifelong educator.

And, uh, a deacon in the Catholic church. My mom was a migrant farm worker and you know, they met many years ago. I’m the oldest of four. And, uh, you know, being raised in a household like that, you can imagine it was, you know, family, faith and community service and education is very much a part of all those things.

Uh, it was, uh. Priority from the moment I can ever remember. Um, and so I think I, I, I, you know, I had a father who was a teacher and then a school principal, and in fact. I often share the story about how he was my principal, just about at every single grade level, from first grade all the way through high school.

Uh, which can be a little nerve wracking for, for any kid. Uh, certainly was for me in some ways, right? That meant I could never get in trouble or get sent to the principal’s office. I think it may have happened once. That’s a story for another day. But, uh, you know, that that also meant that, uh, every day I’d get to ride with him to school early in the morning.

Uh, ’cause he, you know, as a administrator had to be there before anyone else. And, you know, I, I often would spend the first hour or so of every single school day in the library. Um, and, you know, I had to keep myself busy reading or doing whatever kids back then did without really computers or internet.

Right? This was the. A long time ago, uh, in the seventies and eighties when I was growing up. So, uh, you know, uh, that really fueled my, uh, love of books and, and reading and, and, uh, you know, being in school. So I, in many ways, that’s kind of all I’ve ever known. Um, when I came to ut, I followed in my dad’s footsteps.

He came here as an undergrad as well. He graduated in 1965 from UT Austin with a degree in math. 30 years later I came along and, uh, you know, enrolled at UT in 92, uh, as a freshman and. Graduated also with a degree in math. Um, and you know, the first thing I did as a young professional was I, I went back home and, and, uh, I taught at my high school.

So my first job right out the gate after college was, uh, as a math teacher kind of following in my dad’s footsteps in a lot of Uh, but you know, that was just the very beginning of my journey. I, I ventured to graduate school, uh, came back to ut to the LBJ School of Public Affairs and earned my master’s in public policy.

And that’s really been the big, uh, I would say, um, motivation behind my pursuit of higher education, uh, because I, I think growing up in the valley. You know, I, I recognize my privilege, uh, and that, that my family was able to provide for me and my, my brothers, my two brothers, and my sister. But I also recognized very quickly the, the advantages that we had relative to others around us grew up in one of the most impoverished, impoverished regions of the country in Stark County.

And, uh, you know, living in colonials and, and, um, you know, I think. As I often say about places like South Texas and Stark County, you know, poverty is somebody else’s definition. Nobody I knew was poor growing up. Certainly that was not a state of mine or state of being. For many people, they’re hardworking folks.

Um, and to this day, you know, those are the kind of values that I think are imparted, were imparted in me and for a lot of young people down there. So, but I also recognize that there were lots of disparities, uh, primarily around socioeconomics and the opportunity structures that existed for some, but, but not for many others.

And that included within my own family. I’ve had cousins and, uh, extended family members that, uh, have been killed. Um, as a result of, uh, decisions they made or their families made, um, that never went to college, never even finished high school. And so within my own family and extended family, you have this amazing disparity of opportunity and experience.

And even though many of us were raised in very similar ways, right, going to the same churches and, and Bayes and quinceaneras and family gatherings, and. And yet we had such disparate outcomes, life outcomes. So I think that those early experiences and just a recognition of those disparities have fueled a lot of my motivation as a scholar and why I pursued higher education, to really ask those big questions about why, you know, why those opportunities except for some and not others.

And, uh, that has continued to, I think, drive a lot of my research as a scholar for 18 years now here at UT Austin.

[00:07:55] Roxanne: Thank you Victor. And I know that that context, uh, helps to help us all understand about why you co-founded Project Males also here at ut, which is an effort. Focused on improving educational outcomes for male students of color.

And that was in 2010. Right? So, uh, you’ve been doing that project for a long time with Dr. Emmett Campos, who is also the, your. Partner who started this, uh, study abroad program, right. This Maymester that you’ve been doing, and I guess it’s four, not consecutive years, but four years total that you’ve done this program.

How did you come to this idea of specifically focusing on this maymester and this theme, Latinx identities across the Americas?

[00:08:50] Victor: Well, thank you Roxanne.

I referenced earlier how I’m a graduate of UT Austin with a degree in math. And, and that’s true. Uh, I graduated in 1996, but the truth is I could have finished the year earlier because I was done with my math credits in 95. But I stuck around for my fourth year, not as a victory lap, as some might call it, but because I was really intrigued by taking courses in, uh, history, government ethics studies, and Mexican American studies in particular, uh, which is where I really found.

A community and the Center for Mexican American Studies, which at the time in the early nineties, you know, uh, was already around for a couple decades. The, uh, department didn’t quite exist yet. Neither did the broader Latino studies area here at ut, but Seamass was here and Seamass became my home. Uh, for a lot of reasons.

The staff there were incredibly welcoming and warm, uh, people that I count as friends and colleagues to this day. But also, this is where I first encountered Latino faculty at ut. I didn’t find any over in the math department. Perhaps that’s not too much of a surprise, but I did find them in all these other areas in the humanities and social sciences, and I find myself, I found myself taking.

Many extra courses in these areas, even though they had nothing to do with my major. I was a student in the College of Natural Sciences here at ut. These are all primarily in liberal arts, but nonetheless, because I had the opportunity and back then it cost maybe a thousand dollars a semester to pay for tuition here at ut, I had the opportunity to, to continue, uh, my studies and in fact, I earn almost as much.

As many credits as I needed for an additional degree in history, taking courses in not just Mexican American history, but the Mexican Revolution, um, the history of Latino politics in the US with some pretty amazing faculty. Many, you know, some folks that are still actually at UT or recently retired and that I count as mentors to this day.

Um, so that experience, I think. Uh, being an undergraduate student here at ut at a time when CMAs was very much at the forefront of, of Chicano studies and Mexican American studies nationally was a, a kind of a pivotal moment in my, um, socializing in the academy because I came across many faculty members who were doing innovative work, research and writing on this community that I come from, right?

Whether it’s border communities, whether it’s, uh, Mexican American communities. So I think that was my first real exposure. To that world. Um, and I think that also because these were individuals, mentors that, you know, helped shape my early experiences here. The other ones who pushed me to grad school. And to think about, you know, life as an academic, you know, so I, I, I really, I want to tip my hat to those individuals, whether.

It’s Marta Manchaca or Gil Cardenas, or Neil Foley or David Montejano, uh, or, you know, on and on, um, you know, Ricardo Romo and so many others. Um, so I think those are all individuals that, uh, you know, I, I owe a, a huge debt of gratitude to now the other. Big regret that I have, one big regret that I have about my undergrad experience is that I never did a study abroad.

[00:12:12] Roxanne: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:12] Victor: Mm-hmm. So I, uh, you know, that was always, maybe 30 years ago as an undergrad, that wasn’t as promoted as much as it is now in terms of, you know, experiential learning opportunities nowadays, you know, we push it in a big, big way in higher education. And so when I came back to UT as a faculty member and.

2007, you know, as an assistant professor, tenure track, you know, I had no business proposing a study abroad course. That was way too early in my career, but it was among my list of goals to do, is to eventually offer a course abroad and to do it through Texas Global. Back then, I think it was the International Center.

I forget what UT called it back then.

But it became Texas global and, you know, uh, several years back, you know, there was an opportunity, this was pre COVID years to, you know, propose a may master. I’m like, wow, that sounds like a interesting way to do a study abroad, to do it within this four week condensed.

Timeframe and not give up a whole summer, let’s say when, you know, for academics, that’s precious writing time. And so I proposed it, but I had already gotten tenure and promoted to full professor by then. So I think I waited to that stage in my career. And um, the other big question you asked was about project males, and maybe there’ll be more questions later, but.

The short version of that history is that, you know, that that has become a vehicle for my research work research to practice work. And you know, you’re right. Project Males started back in 2010 and you know, that has become an outlet to help translate that research to practice and to really take the research we’ve been working on for many years, focus on the experiences of Latino boys and young men in education.

And to put it to use. Directly, uh, in the context of public schools and working directly with youth, middle school and high school youth. And that was, uh, the impetus behind Project males many, many years ago. My co-founder was actually, uh, Luis Pon Juan. He’s a professor at Texas A&M. Uh, but Emmett came along back in, uh, 2013 or 14 or so to be the director of Project Males.

That’s the first time we had a full-time. Staff member directing our, our initiatives right up until that point, it was a collection of amazing graduate students who, you know, I would employ through grants and whatnot. But, um, and actually Enrique Romo was our first, uh, director and then came Emmett, um, Emmett in, uh, 20 14, 20 15.

So yeah, he was with us for about 10 years. And Emmett has a background in cultural studies and education. And so fast forward to about 2019 when I was getting ready to propose a, a may master course. And, you know, he brought his lens as somebody who’s really steeped in cultural studies and ethnic studies and my, you know, passion for advancing our work within a global context and hemispheric context and what better place to do it than in Mexico, right?

Where, uh, I, I never formally done. Research work in of any, any form, but it, it just felt like it was the right and natural partner for us. And it was, and, and the rest is history. I’m happy to explore further, but uh, yeah, that was really what gave birth to this idea of taking the show on the road and really to this global context of how we might engage partners, you know, within the hemisphere in a learning opportunity.

[00:15:42] Roxanne: So I love that, Victor. And, um, I am also so lucky that I’ve gotten to see some of your work in Mexico and, and meet some of your students. And, um, I wanted to quote one of your students. I found a quote of a student named Deanna Lopez. You remember her?

She said, she spoke about, uh, the, the Maymester on LinkedIn.

She said this program deeply expanded my understanding of identity. And gave me the space to reflect on my own journey. I explored how machismo plays a significant role in everyday life in Mexico and how it shapes expectations around gender, emotion, and family.

[00:16:32] Victor: Wow. the first time I’m hearing that.

That’s great. Yeah.

[00:16:36] Roxanne: Yeah. I really, I, I was really happy to find that, uh, one of your students had written about the program and, um, so you said you remembered Deanna. What do you remember about her?

[00:16:49] Victor: Well, like, like a lot of our students this year, and you said earlier it is the fourth time we do the class, we’ve had an opportunity to really tweak it.

But Deanna, I think was, uh, willing to be open, vulnerable. And exploring and, and coming along this learning journey with us. And I do remember that about her. I can tell you that the reason that there’s so much in the class about machismo stems from our research work, um, with boys and our practice, work with with boys of color.

Um, we engage our young men. Through our mentoring program in conversations that sometimes can be tough to have, particularly for adolescent males who are, you know, averse to seeking help or really going there, you know, and having those kind of tough conversations. And the population of young men that we work with is also often lacking in any positive male role models in their lives.

Hence the whole purpose of a mentoring program, connecting them to UT undergrad students. And that’s the model that we’ve had in place for 12 years now. So one of the themes that we explore is identity, and particularly how they make sense of what it means to be a young man in today’s society. And of course, the themes of machismo that, you know, anchored in the sort of, let’s say the Mexican American or Hispanic culture, if you will.

Can be really problematic, can be toxic, uh, the notions of hyper-masculinity, uh, very, limited and narrow versions of male hood or maleness or what it means to be a man. And when a young man comes face to face with those very narrow notions of masculinity. And if in their mind or their sense of identity, they don’t align with those notions.

And what does that say back to them? How does that reflect back to them if they can’t fit within those very narrow tropes of, of manhood, if you will? And, and what if those notions of masculinity are problematic? Or toxic even. Right? So these are very tough conversations for young people to have, but they need to be having them and doing so in safe spaces.

You know, we often tell our mentors, they’re not trained counselors, they’re not there to go there with these young men. And we certainly work with our undergrads mentors to refer students when a young person might be triggered or have a particular reaction to these conversations. But we do engage in, in thoughtful and meaningful conversations about.

Machismo and what it might mean to them and how they internalize those messages. Uh, because machismo can, and, you know, be reproduced by not just men in their lives, but by women and by other people, right? So these are the same themes that we’ve embedded in our main master course, which is what maybe the Ana’s reflecting on because we then took the notion of masculinity and machismo to this sort of.

Global or hemispheric context of the America is particularly Mexico and we’re, you know, the, the macho image was, if not maybe given birth in Mexico, but definitely fully fleshed out there also in some problematic ways. And that country and really all of Latin America right now is grappling with not just their own version of the Me Too movement, but you know, um, femicide and.

You know, how and femininity and, and how those motions interact or are shaped by machismo and, and masculinity and toxic masculinity. So we’ve embedded a lot of the readings about these, um, trends into our main master course. And then we get to go explore the cities and communities that we’re in, and we see the graffiti on the Catholic churches up and down the country, whether it’s in Puebla or Mexico City, or Oaxaca, you know.

Accosting the church for its, uh, endorsement or its passive endorsement of Femicide, literally written on the church

[00:20:55] Roxanne: Yeah, Yeah.

[00:20:56] Victor: And so, you know, we’re right. We’re reading about it and discussing it in class and then we go out and see it. Right. And again, it’s a certain moment of Mexico in all of Latin America and really globally, um.

Where we’re having to grapple with these ideas in a very, uh, in your face kind of way by design as a form of activism and resistance. And, and I think that those are all themes that we have deeply embedded in this class. And so our students, all UT students. Have to come face to face with that too, and face to face with what that means about their own identity and how that’s being shaped and reshaped in real time.

Um, and for many of our students who identify as this as Hispanic, Mexican, American, Chicano, they, uh, often are coming face to face with this for the first time. Because, you know, we all, and I was raised here, I’m a fourth generation Texan. Uh, we all have a certain heritage culture that we, uh, um. That we embrace that that is, that we’re socialized into, but in some ways it’s not an authentic Mexican heritage.

Right. It’s this sort of in between space, this borderlands context, right? That that Gloria Sal and others referred to as being in the in-between liminal space and that I. Creates a, a disruption of sorts in our own notions of self and identity. And so, yeah, even though that’s not my training as an academic, right.

Um, you know, my, my, my doctorate is in higher education policy, but because I had those origin stories from an undergrad here during a really. A difficult time on the UT campus, you know, and I have, I found my home within CMAs and within Mexican American Studies, and then I connected with people like Emmett, who have that background and training.

We’ve been able to really meld in a beautiful way, all these themes, into this course, into this experience. And then to have a great partner in.

UE as our host site in the city of Puebla and the community of Cholula, San Pedro Cholula. That is literally just an amazing place to have these explorations of self and identity, given its.

place in history as a, a space where people have traversed their thousands of years, but also where Hernan Cortes and his, you know, army landed. Mm-hmm. And, and their efforts to, you know, to usher in the, the conquista, if you will, of the Americas.

[00:23:22] Roxanne: I wanted to ask more.

I, I will ask more about OLAP and, and Puebla and how you organi and, and Oaxaca, right. There’s so many things to share that I know a little bit about the program and also Mexico City of course. Um, but before we go there, a little more about the context and the content of your, of your course, because I know you also rely on some Mexican, uh.

Scholars, artists, uh, to, to share their experience as well and to push against, uh, the binary of gender and sexuality. Uh, and I got to witness some of that, and I’m grateful. And I think for our listeners, it would be really great to hear about how you share some of that, given that you and Emmett are both straight Mexican American men and you have.

A diverse group of

[00:24:17] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:17] Roxanne: attending this program, I’ve been able to see how you bring in other voices, other identities, and rely on the Mexican community and make connections there. Could you talk a little bit about some of the voices that you’ve brought in to expand on some of the content?

[00:24:37] Victor: Yeah,

great question. And that’s really the fun part of putting an experience like this together, right? To work with a local university, in this case La America Puebla, which is actually in Chola, a little community outside of Puebla.

And, uh, the host, um, the, the staff there at were great. And the first year we did the program, we were gonna do it summer of 2020, but COVID hit and that kind of washed that away. But we had done so much planning that in that year ahead of that experience to engage the community in authentic ways, to not be glorified tourists there.

Right. Because there’s plenty of that already happening.

[00:25:18] Roxanne: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:19] Victor: But to be thoughtful and engaged, uh, members of that community for that limited amount of time. And one of the ways we’ve done that as just as an example, is to do, uh, service learning activities while we’re there, which was all facilitated by our host institution.

And that included, you know, one year, for example, our students worked on. Uh, website design for a, uh, a, uh, community, um, a school community there of blind students. Um, another year we, they painted a mural. Um, they put together, um, sort of, uh, food bags for local food bank. You know, we’ve done a variety of things like that, you know, so that’s one part of the experience that we’re there, not just to go visit all these amazing cultural sites and, you know, museums and churches and all the things we do there, which are great, but to actually engage with the real community that lives there and works there.

Um. But then we also do, we have an opportunity to visit with, um, in Oaxaca, for example, with the Musha community. Uh, the Musha community is well chronicled. There’s a third gender community, and, and they are revered in many different indigenous and tribal traditions of that region, uh, of the Sapa tech region of Mexico.

And, you know, the mue, um, you know, have been around for, you know. Decades, hundreds of years, if not, and they, uh, represent the opportunity to express a third gender in a very unique way. And, uh, as I said, these individuals are often revered, right? In a country that is sort of steeped in very traditional notions of masculinity.

You know, and yet here is this other, Community and expression of gender that is not only accepted but revered and lifted up and held up in these communities. And, and you know, as we learn in meeting with members of this community every, during recent visits, you know, uh, these individuals are often seen as kind of the best of both worlds, right?

Male. Female all embedded in one individual, one identity. And as a result they revered because of fi as somebody who fits the perfect mold of what it means to be a community leader or elder. And um, so that’s an ex example of how we are coming face to face with identity through our course and really disrupting whatever.

Limited notions we may have, let’s say in this case, around gender or sexuality. Um, which is also very much part of their experience that they share with us. So, you know, I, that’s just one of other examples, but I think a pretty, uh, obvious one that, that I know we, we always look forward to.

[00:28:07] Roxanne: Absolutely. And, and when I was there in Mexico City and you had that guest from the Mushi community, that was really important.

And I think I witnessed how for some of the students that was an. Really critical space of representation and feeling seen, and I was really grateful to see that. Uh, and also through some of the work I’ve, I’ve gotten to witness, uh, with Project Males, the multiplicity.

[00:28:38] Victor: mm-hmm.

[00:28:39] Roxanne: Of ways that you’re looking at identity and gender and sexuality with young people and and yourselves.

Right. Really thinking and learning. I think someone who teaches a may master is always someone who’s interested in continuing to learn.

Yeah.

right. I’ve done a May master, we learn alongside of the students and that can be just so. Meaningful. Wonderful. And especially when the students see us growing and changing, it enables them to continue to do so as well.

[00:29:12] Victor: Mm-hmm.

Well, we, we really. Look forward to, you know, this experience for all those reasons. And you know, in the midst of this discussion around identity, we also deal with some heavy themes around how the homosexual community in Mexico continues to be oppressed and subjugated in many ways.

So even in a country where can be forward looking. Not just tolerant, but fully embracing. And there’s still a lot of intolerance and hate and violence perpetrated against these communities. Right. And so, you know, that’s also part of what we discuss. You know, that’s where that toxicity can come in, that forms these very, very.

At times, problematic notions of machismo, let’s say, and how that can manifest in very destructive and violent ways towards women, towards, uh, homosexuals and other communities as well.

[00:30:10] Roxanne: So Victor, you mentioned that many of the young people, the students, the UT students who go with you to take the Maymester, identify as Latino or perhaps Hispanic, Mexican American, and. We talked a little bit about how this is a heritage trip for many of these students. Could you talk some more about that?

How many of the students who go and, and what does that mean for them? What have you experienced or heard from them about? About being in Mexico for five weeks with you all and experiencing Puebla, Mexico, Oaxaca?

[00:30:52] Victor: Well, yeah, 2025 was definitely our largest group. We had almost 20 students there with us and full range of, um, identity. And we do a lot of pre-work with them, you know, in anticipation of the journey that they’re gonna be on together and individually. Um, and part of that pre-work involves, you know, you know, kind of taking almost like a, a pre um, survey of how they identify and then again, a post-survey of sorts.

Right? That’s the, uh, the assessment theorist in me coming through, by the way. But, you know, it is interesting how, you know, everybody’s got a different journey. They got their own journey, they’re running their own race, whatever. Not that identity development is a, uh, you know, destination, but it can be for some people, a destination of the mind, heart, and spirit.

And, you know, we. We observed that full gamut of that journey for so many of our students. Uh, we had a few that had well traveled in Mexico already, and this was not new to them, but the great majority was either the first time or one of the first times that they’d ever been anywhere beyond a border town or beyond Cancun or something like that, which, you know, is certainly part of Mexico and it’s beautiful there, but it’s not.

What I would consider to be authentic Mexican experience, but this absolutely was, there was nowhere to hide. Right. We are in the midst of this amazing city in Puebla, uh Right, right close to Mexico City, a few hours away from Oaxaca. I mean, you know, really in the heart and soul of Mexico, and yeah, the journey that we observed so many of our students take.

You know, you could describe it as a heritage journey. And many actually, did they, they shared how they were compelled to do this course because they, it was an opportunity, one, to fulfill a degree requirement, let’s not forget that. But also it was an attractive way to do that because it allowed them to connect and maybe reconnect with their roots, their cultural roots.

And for so many of our young people that were in the class, you know, they maybe were. Born and raised on the border, or maybe one of the big cities in Texas. But you know, they really didn’t understand what Mexican day-to-day life was like. And the full expression of culture, tradition, religion, food, you know, uh, speech dialects, I mean, you name it.

And, and I think the arts. The arts, yes. Coming full, coming again, face to face with that over the course of a month. And maybe that’s not a big, big timeframe in the big scheme of things, but certainly in their, you know, short lives, it’s meaningful. And I think we heard as much, you know, from the post surveys that we did, which, you know, we asked everybody to reflect on their final papers.

Their journey, their individual journey. And uh, yeah. You know, what you shared earlier from Deanna resonates because I heard that over and over again in the, these final papers and

[00:33:51] Roxanne: I’m gonna call upon Deanna again. Okay. Because, um, there’s another quote from her on LinkedIn and, um, which I can share. And so, uh, Deanna says.

around,

this question of the heritage trip and what it means to these students to, to attend this particular Maymester in Mexico and Deanna shared. Coming from a background rooted in Mexican heritage, I’ve always had some awareness of where my family comes from, but this trip brought that connection to life in a powerful way.

It reminded me of how important languages, particularly Spanish, and how my family sacrifices laid the foundation for me to intend to attend one of the top universities in Texas.

[00:34:49] Victor: Hmm. That’s lovely.

[00:34:51] Roxanne: Yeah, I think it’s pretty beautiful. And a shout out to Deanna. Hopefully she’ll hear this podcast sometime.

Um, and I, I think you said Deanna is still a student at ut. Yeah,

[00:35:02] Victor: I wanna say she might be in her final year here. Yeah.

It is. And I

[00:35:07] Roxanne: really glad she had this experience. Obviously it was hyper impactful for her and so many others,

[00:35:12] Victor: and she reflects on her family and the origins of her family.

The, their immigration journey. Uh, a lot of our students shared similar types of sentiments during class. How, you know, they were, you know, finding a way through this course to reconnect with their family heritage and their roots. Um, and, um, I mean, and that is powerful. And I, I, you know, I, so, I’m so impressed with these young people because they’re able to critically reflect on that in ways that, uh.

You know, others maybe won’t have the opportunity to. And um, you know, there’s so many folks that I grew up with on the border, uh, who’ve lived their whole lives there, but never once have set foot into that real part of Mexico and the borders a real part of Mexico. I’m not at all here to disparage border cities on either side of the border.

That’s where I’m from. But, you know, it’s just a different experience being interior Mexico and. Understanding the origins of, you know, what are the forces that are shaping an immigrant family, deciding to immigrate mm-hmm. To a place like the us especially in the current political climate.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you know, what is the, uh, sense of desperation or hope?

Uh, or dreams that are, that are trying to be fulfilled in, in making those kind of journeys. And we’re, many of these students are only one generation removed from that, from those decisions that their families made. And that’s powerful for them to reflect on this, on that journey of their families. In this way

[00:36:51] Roxanne: It is. And also, right. We live in a country that demonizes through media, through television, media, really demonizes. country

to our south. Right. Uh, and it’s really sad. I mean, I have people say to me, what, you’re going to me, people on the who live on the border, you’re going to Mexico that’s so dangerous and be safe and Right. Or, or people who are afraid to go. Um, a lot of folks, uh, who, who identify as Latin

[00:37:22] Victor: mm-hmm.

[00:37:23] Roxanne: people. And, um, that’s, that’s so unfortunate.

And this program, of course, is, is. Disrupting that I hope for many people. And yet the ones who go, certainly their families are, are supporting that in some way. Mm-hmm. Though we didn’t really talk about access and um,

I think some people don’t understand that, uh, study abroad can be quite financially accessible.

Uh, certainly when I got to go travel and do study abroad when I was in college, I didn’t think that would be possible, and yet there was support for me to do that. So I think it’s important for people to know about that. Do you have anything to share about, um, who the accessibility of, of this program?

[00:38:11] Victor: Well. You’re right, it can be, uh, these experiences feel like they are inaccessible to many students, and that’s definitely part of the, um, perception that we have to overcome in doing our recruitment, um, for these programs and.

We’ve had our fair share of struggles. You know, last summer, the course the program didn’t make ’cause we didn’t have enough students that were, uh, able to join. So, yeah, I think, again, shout out to Texas Global and to some of our colleges and schools here at ut, that Marshall Resources to help support, to subsidize the experience for many of our students, especially those that are, you know, economically more needy than others.

And, you know, we, um. We definitely had a lot of students in this cohort this year that benefited from some of these subsidies that are available in the form of scholarships and, you know, um, grants, et cetera. So yeah, there’s definitely efforts here at ut very coordinated efforts to grow the pot of resources available to help bring the cost down.

And, you know, these programs are not free. You know, we’re literally taking groups of, uh, individuals to study elsewhere for long periods of time, and that’s not cheap to do that. Um, but um, but I know that the University of Texas has been working hard to build more of those types of opportunities and pipelines and, you know, I know of plenty of programs that have taken groups of students to, to China or to South Africa, or now to Mexico or Central America, you know, in addition to the traditional places like Europe.

You know, uh, all over Europe. So, um, and we can talk more about that if you’d like, but I, you know, I, I think that every one of our students, and, and I just finished with this thought about your question. Every one of our students felt like validated that they chose. To study in Mexico and not to go some, you know, fancy sunny European city because there’s so much there just to, to be enriched by.

And I think, uh, because of the perception gap or the, some of the problem problematic. Ways that Mexico and Latin America can be portrayed by media, movies, you name it. Um, yeah, I do think it scares people away. Um, that’s the bottom line. So we’re doing what we can, you know, to dispel some of those notions.

And, um, also, uh, be there as thoughtful visitors during our time so that we don’t just perpetuate the, uh, the ugly foreigner stereotype, uh, that can. Also accompany,

Uh,

the experiences of some travelers in, in foreign lands.

[00:40:55] Roxanne: it’s so important and I’ve seen how you prepare your students for that to be thoughtful and to, to not just be taking from the, from the land and to be respectful of, of the community. So I’m, I’m really grateful that I had the opportunity, uh, to, to see how you and also the grad students prepare the students to go.

They’re, they’re quite wonderful. So. You mentioned earlier that these young people, how impactful this can be and how important this can be in their lives. You mentioned that you didn’t have the opportunity to study abroad and how this is, this is your study abroad. Right. So I’d love to hear Victor a little bit about how doing this program.

And bringing students and bringing yourself

[00:41:43] Victor: mm-hmm.

[00:41:43] Roxanne: To Mexico and exploring and learning how that has impacted your teaching, your research, and your life.

[00:41:54] Victor: Well, that’s a great question and I, uh, I’ll try to sum it up this way.

I, I think,

you

know, my background as a, you know, a major in math and policy, public policy, perhaps furthest away from the kind of exploration we do in a course like this in some ways, right? But. That interest and passion for me has always been there, right? I already explained earlier about my, you know, time as an undergrad here at UT and where I felt most at home.

And being in Mexico now for the last four or five years through this program, even if it’s, you know, a few weeks at a time, um, allows me to reconnect in ways and to sort of fill up that passion bucket in a lot of ways and to explore my. Culture and, and history and heritage in unique ways. Every single time.

You know, I find myself reconnecting with my, uh, uh, with my own notion of indigeneity. As an example in ways that I don’t feel I can here. Um, and it’s not for lack of trying or wanting here, but over there it’s very much, I don’t know, it feels more in your face. And part of that is just not just the tribal communities that we connect with and meet, but it’s just the, the way that these indigenous traditions are embedded in language and food and music and everything about that place.

It is a beautiful mezcla that, you know, you see. Communities they’re striving to retain and to celebrate and to lift up. And I don’t, I know that exists here too. I know both of us engage in those communities, in, in ways that we find meaningful to, to each other. But, um. It is just different here, here it does feel society sees the indigenous community almost as an afterthought, as something to forget.

And in many ways, meaning, um, purposely forget, given the atrocities of, you know, what, you know, the United States has done to indigenous communities and na tribal nations in, in the US and what facilitated the birth, quote unquote, of our nation in Mexico. The story is similar, a story of colonization and conquest and indoctrination by violence through the church.

Very, very, uh, tough stories that form and shape our identity and down to the very language or languages that we speak. English and Spanish, both colonizer languages. These are themes that we explore in our class. So, you know, I’m very much impacted by the experience, be as an educator, you know, having gone through this now multiple times because it does help kind of refocus, resharpen, my, my sensibilities about all these different themes in the present day context here in the United States and how much we just take for granted or choose to forget.

And, and you know, as Americans we have so much advantage, so much to be grateful for. And you know, I think. It is not to say that somehow Mexico was lesser than or third world, but it’s portrayed that way often. And so I, I, you know, I, I find myself being very much at home there, uh, whenever I visit and spend time there.

Mm-hmm.

At times, even more at home than here perhaps. And, uh, you know, I, that’s a, just a, a unique part of that experience that that absolutely sharpens my focus as an educator.

[00:45:31] Roxanne: I love it. And certainly seeing you in Mexico, specifically Mexico City, and how much you love being in all of the museums and seeing theatro, right?

Like all of that is, is uh, is just wonderful to, to get to see you in that context and see with students there, so. That’s pretty, uh, big and ephemeral, right? We’re look thinking about, uh, the big picture. Mm-hmm. Any specifics, any moments where you’ve been on this may master that just stick out a day, a visit somewhere, a moment in class, somewhere in Puebla, in Oaxaca,

[00:46:11] Victor: I mean, there’s so many anecdotes I could share. Uh, I’ll share one in Oaxaca visiting Monte Van, which is a historic ruin there, which was the center of the Sapo tech civilization and was also featured in the movie Nacho Libre. Right. So that’s why I’m going with this anecdote because our students, the night before we went to go visit Monte Van Rewatched, nacho Libre.

Right. The movie with Jack Black and mm-hmm. You know, and I, you know, I enjoy that movie. I mean, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m a fan of his, I’ll, I’ll admit, uh, his style, his comedic style, and that movie through one lens could be problematic for some people because it might seem like a caricature of Mexico, particularly.

That part of Mexico. And, uh, the, um. You know, the experience of Lucia Libre and whatnot. But then when we visit, and I visited Oaxaca many times now, and I’ve learned about the actual, um. A preacher that is embodied in this movie. So it’s based on a true story. I thought it was a joke, but no, there’s an actual, uh, person that, you know, was a preacher and became, and by night became this sort of mass, uh, uh, Lucia Libre fighter.

And, uh, that was the inspiration for the movie, for the film. But the students. Um, you know, we’re on their TikTok and Insta and they were wanting to recreate some of the scenes from the movie. Mm-hmm. While we were in Monte van and I reflected on that. I was watching ’em do this, some of the young women in particular, and they were climbing the steps of one of the pyramids.

Right. The juxtaposition of all those images right here. They are consuming this popular culture, kind of, you know, scene from Nacho Re, but yet there were. So excited about recreating it and filming themselves, doing these exact same, you know, little walks up the stairs and all that. You know, I could sense how proud they were and how excited they were, you know, and whatever they were consuming this piece of popular culture.

But, you know, they were wanting to experience it for themselves in their own way. So, uh, that felt like a, I don’t know about a full circle moment, but it was a, you know, a unique little anecdote that. You know, here are these young women, all Mexican American women recreating this scene for themselves, reliving it, and you know, in this context of the historic site.

So that’s one anecdote. The other one I’ll share is walking through and some of the markets of mes, and actually you were part of this experience. Um. And talking to some of the students in my class about how all these images are surrounded by Frida Calo and you see it on handbags, you see it on jewelry, you see it on, you know, shirt, t-shirts you can buy.

And you know, we had just reflected earlier that week on, on Frida and how mortified she would be if she were alive today. Witnessing her image and likeness be commodified in these ways. And you know, it’s inescapable. She’s everywhere. She has become exploited that image right

to such

a degree that it’s sort of now synonymous with Mexico, and not just in Mexico, but all over the world.

Even the, the US is a big, uh, uh, is very guilty of this too in commodifying, that image. But we were talking about in class how. Problematic it would be if she were alive today witnessing this. Right? And so given that, you know, she was a communist, she, she did not espouse these kinds of views around capitalism.

and,

And, what that might mean in today’s context. And yet here we are, um, blind to that juxtaposition as consumers, right, and, and in fact uplifting her image as a way of pride showing, demonstrating our pride for our culture. Right. So there’s a lot of complexity there to unpack for these students, and they’re like, oh shoot, I just bought this handbag with her image or likeness, and it’s a caricature of her.

It’s not even an actual her, it’s like a cartoon version of her, you know? So what does that mean, that people are profiting off of that, you know, now in a way that, well, as a way to uplift the, the, the Mexican identity, because she’s an icon. No question. But what about her life? What about her struggle and her pain?

Because her art was, uh, um, an expression of her pain, physical pain, right? And heartbreak and suffering and all that. Right? That was the outlet for her. That too has become commodified. And we visited her museum in also, right? So there was a lot there. That’s a great microcosm of how we, yeah, we go there with these students.

We talk about the good and the bad and everything in between, and what it might mean in today’s lens because we view it, we, we, we review history through today’s lenses, which is unfair to do sometimes, but, you know, uh, it helps shape our understanding of ourselves, right.

[00:51:13] Roxanne: Absolutely. And now all, everyone, all of us listening, right?

Uh, all of our listeners and and myself are gonna look at our, our bags a little differently and, and,

[00:51:24] Victor: ruined fri kalo bags. Sorry about

[00:51:26] Roxanne: that that’s, it’s okay. And we’re gonna rewatch or watch. Nacho

[00:51:30] Victor: Nacho Libre.

[00:51:31] Roxanne: we have some, some homework from this podcast. Um, but certainly, I mean, right. It’s about that experience. We can talk about this in classes, we can read about it.

But being in Mexico, experiencing this, uh, is, is a just a whole different world. And for me, studying abroad really opened up. The idea of being a traveler since none of my family had ever traveled anywhere, including out of, out of the northeast Right. Or even out of Vermont. Right. So the idea of getting to study abroad really opened up so many doors and, um, and helped shape the way I look at the world and see myself as, as.

Um. As a, as a participant in this, in this journey. Um, so I, I appreciate so much that you are opening those, those doors, frankly, or showing the doors so the students, your students can open them, um, by, by participating and attending and, and going on this journey with you.

[00:52:47] Victor: it’s been a fulfilling, uh, ride and journey for us. For sure. And I, I told the students at the end of the class, uh, last month that I, I get more out of this experience than they could ever imagine or understand. So I, I, you know, and I, I always feel that way in some way or another about all my courses.

I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea, but this is so unique. Right. And it does provide this unique vehicle in the form of this kind of program, may master program through Texas Global at UT Austin. Right. And many of these students are. MAS majors, you know, Mexican American studies majors or international relations majors.

So they’re already thinking about the world in a global context, right? Um, as educators, the more that we can sort of spread that message to think about others in a global context, you know, the more we can move away from this sort of myopic exceptionalism that. Unfortunately, it tends to rule the day and feeds into our politics and our rhetoric and our day-to-day understandings of other people, because then you get a sense of like, wow, what is it like to be a traveler, a foreigner, right?

In a whole other country, put yourselves in their shoes for even a few moments. It, you know, that perspective can change everything,

[00:54:07] Roxanne: especially being from a place like the United States that centers itself so much. Right? Right. So what, what an incredible, um. Opportunity. You and, and Emmett and of course Texas Global have, uh, have created and continue to create for students here at UT Austin and I, I believe you won’t be doing the May Master in Puebla next year, but you’re journeying elsewhere and we

[00:54:37] Victor: we are, we’re journeying to, uh, Espania. Okay. So.

Our contract with Ola was up and, uh, we hope to return one day soon. You know, uh, we definitely plan to do that sometime in the near future, but for the next two years, yeah, we’re gonna take the, the course and, um, complicate it even further.

Thinking about the, the origins of colonialism. I mean, the ultimate colonizes were the Spanish Empire. Um, you know, in many ways, at least when it comes to the Westward imperialism, uh, that we’ve seen over the last 500 years that really made the Americas and, uh, what better place to do that than in Barcelona mm-hmm.

And, and in Spain. And so yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re gonna take our, our, uh, course and, uh, re rename it Latinx identities across Espania. Um. Wow. And we’re partnering again with Texas Global and, uh, one of the universities there in Barcelona. And, uh, we’re very, very excited about the next two years and I’ll come back and share even more exciting stories, I’m sure about that experience as well.

[00:55:43] Roxanne: I will be eager to hear about that and I’m sure all of our listeners will be as well. Well, uh, Victor, could you tell us a little bit about where people could find more information about Project males and also about study abroad at UT Austin?

[00:55:59] Victor: Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way, uh, you can find us, uh, on the internet is projectmales.org , and that’ll direct link you to our UT Austin webpage, uh, where project Males, uh, work exists.

And I didn’t say this earlier, but. Project Males, males is actually an acronym Mentoring to achieve Latino Educational Success. And, uh, that, that is, uh, sort of the, uh, the brand that we’ve been working under for the last 15 years here at ut. Uh, we now are located in the College of Education at UT Austin in the Texas Center for Equity and Promotion.

That’s our academic home. We’re engaging in all sorts of research work across the state through our statewide consortium and of course our local program here in schools called the Project Male Student Mentoring Program. So that’s how you can find us, uh, easiest. We’re also on all the social media outlets, uh, X and uh, Insta and all that.

So, uh, LinkedIn as well. So you’re, uh, you know, feel free to Google this anytime. Uh, but yeah, thank you for the opportunity.

[00:57:02] Roxanne: Oh, absolutely. We’re so happy that we got to talk with you today, Victor. And, uh, did you share a little bit about Texas Global?

[00:57:11] Victor: Oh, well, I don’t know their website, but yeah, you can Google Texas Global, uh, you know, they’re, they’re the international arm here at UT Austin and, uh, we’ve been very fortunate to, to, to be partnering with them through all this.

So we thank them immensely for all the support and guidance they’ve offered us over the years, and we’ll continue to.

[00:57:32] Roxanne: Agreed. So important. Well, I think this is, uh, the end of this podcast here at Latin Experts, and we’ve been talking today with Dr. Victor Saenz who is a professor and associate dean in the College of Education here at UT Austin. I wanna thank you again, Victor, for taking the time to talk with me here today.

And, um. Reflecting upon your experience as the, as one of the, the leaders of this maymester in Puebla, Mexico and also your work at Project Males. I really appreciate the work that you’re doing and I appreciate, uh, Latino studies. For this opportunity to share and, um, get people to become more aware of all of the great work that you’re doing.

So thank you again, Victor.

[00:58:26] Victor: Thank you, Roxanne. And one question for you. Am I an Latin expert now?

[00:58:32] Roxanne: I, uh, I’ll, we’ll let the listeners Okay.

[00:58:35] Victor: They can decide.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Alright. Appreciate you. Thank you.

[00:58:39] Roxanne: you. Thank you.