Episode 005 – What would it look like if Afro-Latinos were centered in Latino politics?

[0:00:02 Speaker 0] Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, you’re listening! Toe Latin Experts A podcast of Latino studies at the University of Texas at Austin Latin experts features the voices of faculty, staff and students, as well as friends and alumni of the Department of Mexican American and Latino Latino Studies. The Latino Research Institute and the Center for Mexican American Studies. Join us for this episode of Latin experts Episode five What would it look like if Afro Latinos were centered in Latino politics? Today, we offer the last in our five part series of Latin experts on centering Afro Latina Dodd and challenging anti blackness and Latin X communities. I’m Karma Chavez, the chair of the Department of Mexican American and Latino Latino Studies at the University of Texas at Austin. And today I’m joined by Dr Daniel Cleveland, who has just started her position as an associate professor in malls, and she’s also got a joint appointment in African African diaspora studies. She’s recently arrived to Austin from Miami, where she was an associate professor in the Department of Politics and International Relations at Florida International University. Dr. Cleland studies black politics in the Americas. She examines black public opinion and black consciousness to determine how attitudes are influenced by both narratives of racial harmony and realities of structural racism. She is also the author of the award winning book The Power of Race in Cuba. Racial Ideology and Black Consciousness During the Revolution. Daniel, Thanks for being on that experts and welcome to U T. Thank you. I’m excited to be here, and I’m happy to kick it off in this way. Well, I’m excited to get to introduce you to folks as, uh, one of our latest hires and really also grateful because you’re in the middle of moving. So thank you for taking this time. So I guess I wanted to just jump right into the conversation. And one of the things I was thinking about was over the weekend. A lot of my friends on Social Media were circulating a graphic of presidential race the polls over the weekend, and it was divided into three categories. This graphic that people were showing, of course it was white, black and Latino. Unsurprisingly, it said something like 49% of whites, so one out of two whites are still supporting our good friend Donald Trump. That’s compared to what they said was 10% of blacks and 23% of Latinos. So I wanted to kind of use. This is a way to get to this conversation. Can you talk to me a bit about how this approach to measuring public opinion, uh, obscures certain things about the identity in the United States? Yeah, So I mean, you know, one of the things that I’m really kind of diving into right now is looking at how we ignore the intersections between race and ethnicity. And so it’s not only with these polls that we see it’s in political science in general, where we have Latino politics and we have black politics and the two don’t have a lot of conversations on DSO when we’re looking at Latino politics. In particular, we’re not thinking about race. And so what we end up having is Afro Latinos in the Latino politics or the Latino poll. We have Afro Latinos in the black groups that are being pulled, but they have both identities, and so it’s really inaccurate to talk about these groups as separate entities without really talking about what the overlap is. And you know what I’m trying to look at is not only what happens when we take that intersection into account, but then also, how does race matter within Latino politics? So among the Latinos, we see you know where 23% are supporting Donald Trump. What does that look like? A faras race is concerned. We have no idea. Um, but so far, what I’ve seen is that Afro Latinos look a lot more like African Americans in their political attitudes, their voting behavior than Latinos as a whole. Um and so that’s super interesting, because we really don’t have any data on that. Um, and I don’t necessarily know that polls are going to follow. You know what we’re trying to do in political science as faras looking at these intersections, But at least we’re starting to talk about it, you know, within the field. But I think polls we’re going to continue to separate these two, and it really speaks to this idea that Latinos were not black and that black people are not Latino. Well, it’s interesting you said about the kind of trending mawr toward African American among Afro Latino populations, because that’s I guess, in some ways, expected, uh and Maybe if you could elaborate a bit more on that talk about what are the priorities political priorities that Afro Latinos seem tohave over and against? Maybe what? Why and mestizo Latino populations have so mostly what I have been looking at thus far is our experiences with racism experiences with police brutality, which is important in this time that we’re in right now. And what I look at is how experiences than affect political attitudes. And so what we see is that black Latinos are far more likely than white and mixed race Latinos to experience racism, to experience police brutality. This is not to take away from the fact that Latinos are being discriminated against and do have, um, negative experiences with police. But we see that when you are black, that is amplified on DSO. Um, you know, when you have those experiences that changes the way that you think about your own position in society, it changes the way that you might vote. It changes the way that you think about race and, you know, it’s effect on, you know, our institutions. And so you know, if we’re looking at voting behavior, we see that black Latinos are more likely to vote Democrat on That is something that we’re still exploring. But that Z kind of place that I’m taking it right. So experiences with racism. How does that affect your political attitudes? Um, as far as black Latinos are concerned, that makes a lot of sense. And again, not super surprising. It’s just not something that gets a lot of space within our dominant public sphere. Uh, and I was also thinking about this in relation to as reading Ah, Pew Research Center study from 2016. And it was talking about the fact that roughly 25% of Latinos actually are Afro Latino identifies Afro Latino, uh, in terms of their heritage at the same time that, um, not a lot of those actually used that phrase or that that identification. And I wonder if you could talk a bit about that. I mean, we already have the Latino Hispanic, you know, that whole question of who we are as a people. But how is that complicated or in what ways is that complicated when we talk about labeling our identifications of Afro Latinos? Yeah. So there are several. We see this particularly in surveys in political science. And so there are several surveys where, um in since the nineties, folks have asked Latinos, do you identify as black? Um In the first Latino national political survey, it was 250.8%. So not even 1% off Latinos identified. It’s black. But then, when you looked at skin color in the same survey, 8% of the of the sample said that they were dark skinned blond. So there is a disconnect between how people see themselves as faras color is concerned, and then what kind of name they give themselves as faras racial identity is concerned Bond. So there’s a lot of There are a lot of studies that show that Latinos are less likely likely toe identify as black or African American. And then the conclusion after that is well, the Latinos are distancing themselves from blackness they don’t want to identify as black. But I’m not sure that’s what’s happening. I think that, you know, when we look at identity, Latinos are perhaps associating black and African American together, Um but not necessarily always distancing themselves from that blackness, because we see that on skin color and when we ask, um, questions about identity and more creative ways. Putting in several other categories that are often used in Latin America, we find that many more will identify as black s. So I think that that’s why the Pew Research Center found that 24% number. The other part of this, though, on the other side is that when you do ask about being Afro Latino, sometimes people that are few know typically white will say yes. Okay, so so you know, we have this this narrative in Latin America that says we’re all mixed race, right? We all have African ancestry. And so I think that that prompts people to say, Sure, I have African ancestry, right? We’re all mixed. You know, I’m Afro Latino. Uh, and so, you know, in I’m currently working with the collaborative multiracial post election survey. Long name, uh, the C M. P s, which asked about Afro Latina God, but then also about skin color. And so what we found is that there were a good portion of folks that are, you know, typically white. That’s still said that they were Afro Latino. So it’s tough. The trick is to kind of find the balance where you’re you’re getting, um, accurate measures of who really is black. And then how do those folks identify? It’s interesting. I don’t know if you had a chance to listen to the show last week and I was talking with Pablo Lopez Aura about some of these questions, and he was wrestling with this, too, in his own work, in the sense that, uh, you know, white and mestizo mixed race Latinos absolutely should be able to be in solidarity with black lives. But that framework of Latinos for black lives erases Afro Latina Dodd. And he’s resting the same question of, Like, what about basically white passing Latinos who claim Afro Latina? That and what’s the politics of that, you know, kind of more of a movement sense than in the more traditional political sense. I think these air complex questions and I don’t know if they come up a Z much in the kind of survey work that you do. Um uh, well, for the stuff that I do, yes, right, because I have tow, um I mean, most of my attention in the survey work is on. This is on identity and how people identify because that’s the zoo. That’s how you identify the sample in the first place. And so you know, now that we’re, you know, we’re doing an Afro Caribbean, uh, sample for the first time in the 2020 see MPs. And ah, lot of my questions were just on this trying to identify you know how you know who is black and then how they identify by asking a number of questions. Open ended, close ended skin color, You know, all kinds of different ways so that we can be more accurate about this. But I think also, uh, you know, messed Isa has tricky because on the one hand, you know, Latinos experienced discrimination, and so, you know, when we’re thinking about how people view their position, many Latinos can see themselves as in solidarity with black folks because many have the same experiences with police. Many have the same experiences with, you know, employment discrimination with housing, segregation. Um, at the same time when we when we evoke messed isa him, we say, you know, we are all mixed. That can also be an excuse for anti black attitudes. Right. Um, you know, I have this African heritage, and so I can’t be racist. Um, and so it works. Um, it works both ways. In that sense, I think. Yeah, well, it reminds me a little bit of what happened this weekend with your former senator, Marco Rubio, who tweeted his very loving tribute Thio representative John Lewis, who, of course, died late last week on his tribute was accompanied with the picture of the late representative Elijah Cummings. Um, eso Twitter, of course, had a field day with this, uh, but I do think there’s a way in which it is an interesting commentary on the tension between non black Latinos and their relationship to blackness. Maybe in a more authentic way than the were all mixed. Not enough. You have thoughts on what happened with over the weekend? All right? I think you know, it’s funny because we’re, um, in the midst of this, you know, debate about, um, about the, you know, Afro Latino Congress, people that are now thinking about how to identify. And it really speaks to this real separation between, um, you know, the political world of black folks and Latinos. And now that we have to grapple with folks that are sharing these identities. Uh, we’re having to talk about these kinds of things, but I think 100% and and this is this is also, you know, something that’s particular to Miami, because in Miami I find that the Latino population and the African American population eyes quite separated and that there is real tension there. And so I think, you know, that gets amplified in Marco Rubio’s, um, you know, what do you call it A gaffe? I don’t know what you call it. Um total, you know, obliviousness. But, um, yes. So I think you know, we have Thio have these kinds. I mean, it’s funny and it’s disrespect. It’s funny and disrespectful and angering and all of those things at the same time. But if we talk about the root of it, you know, why the hell doesn’t Marco Rubio know what John Lewis looks like versus Elijah Cummings on that really speaks to this This gap, you know, between not only black and Latino politics, but also, you know, the fact that Marco Rubio is a Republican and what does that mean about his circle is Well, yeah, absolutely. What I want to return to a little bit about what you were just saying about now, having to reckon with the fact that Afro Latinos are coming into political realm in a different way, maybe than they have before. And so you sent me this great article last night by Ritchie Torres, who is the Democratic candidate for the 15th Congressional District in New York. And he’s gay and Afro Latino likely to win his seat. And he’ll be the first openly gay Afro Latino elected to Congress. And so he wrote an opinion in The Washington Post, and I’m just going to read a little excerpt, then ask you to respond to it. So he says, there is an antiquated rule that prohibits members of Congress from joining both the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. The wall of separation between the C, B. C and the CHC ignores the realities of racial identity, which feels especially tone deaf. In this present moment, you have to pick a side, so to speak. You could be either black or Latino, but never both. In real life, however, I am both we, after Latinos refused to be divided against ourselves by an arbitrary rule that bears no relation to how we experience identity in the real world. And so I wonder if you could talk a bit about, um, more broadly how Afro Latinos maybe have felt politically divided against themselves. Um, this is just kind of ah, maybe, ah, med enim of, ah, broader problem. Yeah, I think that I mean, there’s a lot of inside politics behind this whole Ritchie Torres and and New York City politics between, um, you know, the CBC, the CHC. But I think overall, his point is a really important one to say that what happens when somebody sincerely wants to work with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus, and they can’t, Right? Um, and then it comes down to Well, should they pick one bond? Then how does that process even happen? Um, you know, you have to choose loyalties, but, you know, there might not be one. Um, you know, there’s a new congresswoman that, um, you know, has an African American and Mexican parent here in Texas. Um, and so, um, you know what will she you know? Should she, you know, be in this position? What would she decide? Um, and then we’re asking questions about, you know, how are we defining blackness in the Congressional Black Caucus? Um, you know, and so there are a lot of different questions that I think folks are now having to grapple with. Um, but certainly it makes, um, little sense to have to choose between one group or another when trying to advocate, uh, particularly for a constituency that is both black and Latino. Um, so it’s not only the constituency, but it’s also, you know, the Congress person’s identity. Um, that’s that’s at play here. Yeah, I know. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you’ve been working on, Ah, pretty significant oral history, political history project about Afro Cubans. I’m not mistaking in politics. And I wonder, um, you know, if just the stories you’ve been hearing, if there’s any, like, big lessons that you’ve learned through that project or maybe more broadly, that help us to really think about what Latino politics or the idea of Latino politics would look like if Afro Cubans or Afro Latinos more broadly were actually put at the center if their values were actually, we’re how we animated, uh, Latino politics. Yeah. So in Miami. I mean Miami To me, racial politics in Miami is fascinating. And so to me, Miami is particularly fascinating because it is a place where white Latinos are red as white. And so they have access to whiteness in ways that white Latinos outside of Miami have not. Um, And so in that sense, when we think about the Cuban American story in particular, we are, you know, the narrative is about this successful ethnic enclave that was created in Miami, Um, where, you know, Cubans really were able to thrive politically economically, You know, when we look at Latinos in, um in politics, many of them are Cuban American, particularly because of the success that Cubans have had in South Florida. However, if we insert the story of black Cubans, it’s a completely different story. And so, you know, when we think about centering blackness in Latino politics, we have to change the narrative. And so you know, when black Cubans come into Miami, they are not benefiting from that ethnic enclave. They cannot rent or purchase homes in that economic conclave because they’re excluded from it. Um, they don’t benefit from the social networks. They don’t they aren’t able to go toe white segregated schools during Jim Crow s. Oh, they’re either going to private schools and paying more money, Um, or they’re going to black segregated schools, which puts them on different trajectories completely. And so, really, I think what’s important about centering blackness within Latino politics is to look at our narratives and to say, you know, are we really accurately depicting Latinos? If we are ignoring race and we’re not, um, you know, there are, you know, so many stories that are far different when we talk about black Latinos and that’s with housing. It’s with education. Um, it’s with even, you know, social relationships. It’s with voting. All of these things were different when we start talking about blackness and so we really change, Um, the narrative we change, Um, you know, the way that Latinos interact with institutions. Eso everything really becomes, um different. And we have to We have to take that into account e mean in some ways, what you’re offering as a way forward, as opposed to the kind of black brown solidarity model that’s been so predominant, is a model of orienting politics around blackness that when we orient our politics around blackness. Actually, the needs of other Latinos will be met. Two. Is that a fair characterization? Yeah, definitely. And and also that we see that you know, African Americans and Latinos when we’re looking at blackness in particular, um, are occupying the same space Is are having the same experiences. And so that solidarity, um, now becomes very different. Because now we’re talking about folks that perhaps were not included when we were thinking about Latinos, um, in in the story. And so, you know, I think you know, what you talked about with Pablo is important, uh, to say that, you know, when he said, you know, Latinos or Latin X for black lives matter. But we are black, right? And so these are our lives, right? These are our experiences, um, you know, their solidarity. But then there’s also being part off that community, and so, yes, I mean, definitely when we sent her blackness in Latino studies, we have to then reorient the way that we see identity and the way in which Latinos interact, um, with institutions and the way that they experience structural racism. Well, I think that is a perfect place to end our conversation. So, Daniel, thanks so much for talking with me today. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. Awesome. Hi. All things is Ashley novel. Montero’s the Communications associate. A Latino studies. Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. Make sure to check out the Latino studies Instagram page. Follow us at Latino studies. You t to keep the conversation going