Iranian Diaspora Culture

Irancast Episode 2 – Amy Malek
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[00:01:07] Nahid: Okay, welcome to another episode of Iran Cast, actually to our se second episode to be precise and I’m so happy to be in conversation today with Amy Mallick, with her wonderful new book, culture Beyond Country Strategies of Inclusion in the Global Iranian Diaspora. This was published by New York University Press in 2025.

Um, Amy. Hello.

[00:01:41] Amy: Hi.

[00:01:42] Nahid: Hi. How are you?

[00:01:43] Amy: Um, well, we’re getting by. We’re getting by. Uh, thank you for having me. It’s, um, it’s a real pleasure to speak with you always, even under these really difficult, um, times that we’re living in.

[00:01:54] Nahid: These are very dark times. I know for all of us, uh, who’ve been out of communication with our loved ones in Iran for more than two weeks now, and just knowing the extent of, uh, the brutality, um, that has happened on the ground. Uh, actually not knowing the extent is the,

[00:02:11] Amy: Exactly.

[00:02:13] Nahid: we actually don’t have a full picture of what happened.

And this is very, this has been very difficult for everyone and more difficult. So for people on the ground, yep.

[00:02:21] Amy: Of course.

[00:02:23] Nahid: Amy John, I’m going to introduce you. So, um, Amy Malik is a sociocultural anthropologist specializing in the intersections of migration, citizenship, memory and culture in the Iranian diaspora.

She’s associate professor of Anthropology and American Studies at William and Mary. Her research investigates how immigrants and their descendants actively construct cultural belonging and navigate the constraints and possibilities shaped by state projects, market logics, racial formations, and digital technologies.

I just loved reading your book. It is so rich and so full of anecdotes and details and, um, so I wanna talk a little bit about, you know, how did you even come to research the subject?

[00:03:10] Amy: Thank you. Thank you for those kind words. Um. Yeah, I, um, I guess I can give you a different side of my bio to answer that, which is that I, I am Iranian American. I’m the child of an Iranian father, an American mother. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. Um, kind of navigating a lot of those things that you just listed.

Um, so in some ways, um, uh, these kinds of questions were percolating in life. Um, and my interest, you know, as a, as a college student was really in, um, middle East studies and thinking about Iran a lot without really having grown up thinking that that’s what I would be interested in doing, right? So it was kind of like a, something that I started thinking about, um, more seriously as I pursued graduate work and thinking about how my contribution to, um, middle East studies or Iranian studies, um, would, what would it look like?

What kinds of things am I, am I interested in? And it really was about, um. Culture, culture, and it had to do with cultural history, um, cultural practices. And, um, I, you know, I, I did a master’s degree at NYU and in that period, I had a real kind of like, excuse the term, come to Jesus moment of like, what, what are we doing here if I, I am not in Iran, right?

And I don’t really, um, prescribe to the type of scholarship that involves like a, a quick jump into a, in a community and a quick jump out. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, there’s a deep knowing that I think is really important to develop over long periods of time, uh, which led me, of course, to anthropology, uh, make, make, makes sense, why?

Um, and so I really kind of made a decision at that point that it was really the diaspora that I had so many questions about and that I was really interested in and intrigued by. Um, I didn’t really grow up around a lot of Iranians in diaspora, so it wasn’t the, it wasn’t. It wasn’t what necessarily me search, like looking, trying to understand myself.

It was more as trying to understand the kind of diasporic condition that so many immigrants and children of immigrants find themselves in. Um, and what kind of worlds they create, what kind of worlds they inhabit and, and how this relationship across, um, space and time kind of developed. Um, so, you know, I, I went into my, my PhD thinking I was going to, you know, um, um, look really, um, at cultural production and the project developed out of, out of that, uh, kind of line of inquiry.

[00:05:41] Nahid: That is such an interesting sort of, you know, quandary that you bring up because I think it applies to a lot of, um, students studying Iran, especially sort of heritage Iranian students, which is, you know, many of. Us and actually not just students, scholars as well are deeply interested in what’s happening in Iran, but of course, increasingly over the last 10, 15 years, access to Iran has become more and more limited.

And so, um, that is why this field of Iranian diaspora studies, which I know you’re, you know, uh, sort of central, um, scholar within, has grown so rapidly, uh, over the last few years. And I know you have a conference coming up, right? Actually.

[00:06:21] Amy: The subject if you don’t, if they plug it. Absolutely. Yeah. So I’ve been working alongside process ca, um, who ran the center for writing DS for studies at San Francisco State and has been kind of a pioneer in the field. Um. We held a couple of conferences now, um, trying to kind of build this field, um, as we see a lot of scholars who are either junior scholars coming in, asking really interesting questions and, and bringing new methodologies to the study of the diaspora or, um, senior scholars or mid career scholars who had been working in Iran and who no longer are able or willing to do so.

Um, and, and taking a new kind of look at the diaspora from an academic angle. So, um, we have a, um, conference coming up in Toronto, um, at the end of May. Um, in collaboration with Dr. Tabak. Um. Uh, university of Toronto. So, um, we have a, a great committee of scholars who are working both, um, at TMU, at, um, U of T, uh, to think about how we can bring together, um, scholarship on the diaspora and where this field kind of stands.

Um, so all, all, um, I I take the approach that, um, all new ideas and, and all scholarship is welcome, um, and it can only enrich our field to have more, um, brains on the, on the matter. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:40] Nahid: And it’s wonderful that it’s in Toronto because, because of course as, uh, most people who, uh, study Iran or are part of the Iranian community know that, uh, Toronto, also known as Toronto, uh, because of its gravity as a site of sort of Iranian, uh, diaspora population, um, is, uh, one of the sites that you have studied, uh, precisely because it has become, um, a major site of the Iranian diaspora.

And so, you know, it’s one of the chapters, one of the case study chapters that you present in your book. Your book has five chapters. The, um, introduction is, um, you know, offers your sort of conceptual and comparative frameworks. The second chapter asserting Freedom, dignity, and Wealth in Los Angeles is about the Iranian diaspora population there.

Um, third chapter, contesting cultural belongings in Stockholm, uh, about the Iranian diaspora in Sweden. And then the fourth chapter in navigating mul multiculturalism in Toronto. Um, and then the fifth, kind of bringing these threads together, comparing Iranian diasporic strategies in multicultural societies.

And you already mentioned that you were interested in sort of studying culture production, and in your book you write that, you know, uh, this book offers an up close comparative ethnography of immigrant and diasporic cultural citizenship through the lens of cultural production. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you, uh.

Bring in the frameworks of multiculturalism and interculturalism, both of which are articulated, um, in the context that you describe through the production of, you know, culture, whether they’re festivities or, you know, a sculptures or, um, you know, centers where Iranians gather, uh, much sort of larger festivals, not just sort of one fest as in as in Sweden.

Can you talk a little bit about, unpack for us, sort of the difference between multiculturalism and interculturalism? And I know you’ve thread this through your entire book, but just so, so we know our terminology in this, in this conversation. Of course.

[00:10:00] Amy: Yeah, of course. Um, it’s a, I’m laughing not because it’s, you know, uh, a, a big question in my book. I’m laughing because it’s a big question in the field, Uhhuh. Um, and, and these kinds of, the, uh, the ways that, uh, multiculturalism and interculturalism have developed over time are, are relational, right? And so multiculturalism kind of emerges in, um, the seventies out of Canada and in some ways in Sweden around the same time, around on the mid seventies as a kind of, um, way to try to bring more of the population in the fold, so to speak, so that there’s, they, they recognize there’s this, there’s been this shift in immigration.

Where, um, in the US as well, right? We have 1965, um, uh, uh, at the, at the key moment in the change of immigration laws in this country, but also similarly in around the mid sixties in Canada and in Sweden and other countries as well to kind of create more openness in terms of, um, who can immigrate. Uh, and so as we see these diversifying societies, there are certain questions that emerge about, um, rights and about belonging and about inclusion, um, for these newcomers.

And so different states are kind of grappling with this question in the seventies and eighties in different ways. And so multiculturalism is one answer to that question, and I, I want to be, uh, clear here by one answer. I don’t actually mean that multiculturalism means one thing. So multiculturalism as a term became an answer, but it didn’t necessarily mean the same thing in the same places, um, to the same people.

So. Um, in, in a Canadian context, it become, it emerges kind of out of the, the, the history of Canada, right? So there’s this, there’s our, there are indigenous groups in Canada, there’s settler colonialism in Canada. Um, there’s immigrant groups in Canada and how to reckon with these different kinds of power struggles.

And one way was to say that, well, um, we should have biculturalism French and English, right? So you think about colonialism as the kind of like, um, center of identity in Canada. Uh, and there’s a challenge right in, in Kabaka kind of identity versus, um, British descendant, um, identity there. And so, uh, the Prime Minister at the time kind of.

Dodges that that problem by saying, no, we won’t have biculturalism, we’ll have multiculturalism. Um, and this was kind of branded as a way of it being more inclusive of First Nations and being more inclusive of immigrants. There’s debate in Canadian, um, uh, scholarship about how to think about that. I’ll leave that for those, um, experts.

But, um, in that sense, it, it became a kind of cornerstone of Canadian identity. This idea of a multicultural society where. You are not trapped by the, by the place of birth. Right. You’re, you’re able to kind of belong in Canada no matter where you were born, no matter what your cultural, um, belongings may be.

And that, that’s actually virtue that you come with all kinds of, um, cultural, uh, uh, practices, languages, ideas, behaviors as an immigrant. Mm-hmm. Um, and that they can coexist and, and be a positive for the country. In Sweden, the kind of approach to multiculturalism was a little bit different. Um, and they, they were really, um, trying to incorporate, um, on a group level by providing resources like, um, uh, community associations could get funding.

Right. For your, um, national groups association or ethnic groups association. Mm-hmm. You could get, um. Uh, uh, support from the state to teach your children, uh, your language, a mother tongue kind of program. You could, um, organize various, um, activities for, uh, your community. And over time there was an idea that this would build kind of a, this was a corporatist model.

It would build one body of, of, of the nation. And yet over time there was still discrimination. There was still kind of, uh, clear inequalities that needed to be addressed. And so Interculturalism comes about, um, after, uh, some of those, um, uh, some of that debate about multiculturalism as what the failures of multiculturalism have been.

That, well, let’s try interculturalism instead, interculturalism kind of proposes this idea of a two-way. Uh, kind of, uh, vision of inclusion so that immigrants are becoming more like, say the majority, while the majority is also changing, right? That this is a two-way direction of inclusion. Mm-hmm. Um, but even in that, um, interculturalism looks different and how it emerges in a qual context versus a Swedish context.

So I won’t go into all the details, but just to say. That these terms, um, some scholars suggest these terms actually are synonyms. There’s just been like such a bad PR for multiculturalism in the late two thousands and 2010s that when approach that some Europeans and some Canadians made was to try interculturalism instead.

Um, but there’s, again, scholars debate this. Um, it’s, it’s not necessarily a, um, the same thing everywhere. So like, one of the main kind of points of the book is that looking more globally at the Iranian diaspora is really important. And it’s also really important to understand the ways that local, uh, systems, local power, local experiences are really, um, uh, impactful.

That we can’t just say the Iranian diaspora. Is one thing is in one way we have a global diaspora. We’re very dispersed, and these kinds of state policies have a huge impact on how we operate as individuals, as a group, and as a diaspora. Um, when we try to become more united, right, we find that there’s differences, uh, and those differences are important to remember

[00:15:54] Nahid: It’s very interesting. You know, you have, uh, you have on page 25 and onward 25, 26, sorry. Yeah. 25 and 26. This very useful table

[00:16:06] Amy: these comparative talk.

[00:16:08] Nahid: between United States, Sweden, and Canada. You know, just dividing them by just giving us an overview of things like migration, policy histories and sources of demographic, multiculturalism, integration policies.

And, um, it’s, you know, you sort of highlight the fact that, I suppose in the us, um, is what you call, if I remember, remember correctly, a sort of negative case where, you know, where it’s not. There was basically no intentional policy as I, as I understand it. Is that

[00:16:41] Amy: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, n negative, not in, not in the, like, uh, not in a judgy way, negative in the sense of the absence of a federal multicultural policy. Mm-hmm. So where, you know, um, similar demographic changes may have been happening in the us The reaction here was not like Sweden and Canada to develop a, um, nationwide kind of approach to immigrant inclusion or.

Multicultural identities. Um, but rather, um, we had, um, you know, multiculturalism as a term kind of emerges here more in the kind of cultural wars of the seventies and eighties, um, coming out of the civil rights movements, um, trying to determine things like, um, uh, uh, literary cannons or, uh, curriculum debates about who should be included as American literature, who should be included in American history.

Um, and those kinds of, um, uh, really deeply important questions really were where we saw more of the multiculturals and debates happening here. Uh, at this, at the level of policy, we’ve never really had a federal policy that provides resources or guidance as to how immigrants should be included in their communities.

Um, mm-hmm. In other countries, you might have things like I mentioned before, like maybe a budget put towards things like, um, to preserve cultural identities or languages. Or you may have, like in Canada, um, centers that are, are set up called welcome centers or newcomer centers that are there specifically to help, uh, newcomers, you know, find jobs, find a, find housing, um, integrate in other ways, do job training, et cetera.

In the US that really falls onto nonprofits, religious groups, um, and a kind of civil society to, to do if it is being done at all. Right? And so there’s not like this similar kind of national approach. And so as a result, when I was thinking about doing a comparative ethnography, I was looking for cases where we had a large Iranian, um, community.

We had sizable population, we had, um. Uh, maybe different moments of migration. Um, and we also had different state approaches to, um, immigration and immigrant incorporation. Um, so that’s where we get the kind of like negative case, um, in that way of the us. How have Iranian Americans kind of managed this idea of belonging or non belonging in a country where their, um, inclusion is really on their own shoulders?

Um, there’s not really state support, right?

[00:19:16] Nahid: Mm-hmm. And you know, just following up on what you were talking about, I, this question really just occurred to me now because it just seems so self-evident that of course you would, you know, look at the population in Los Angeles and in Toronto. And for me, having grown up in Germany, just knowing of the huge diaspora Sweden, uh mm-hmm.

It just, you know, I thought, yeah, of course you would do Sweden, but then again, they’re also huge dations in Germany and the UK by now, also Asia. So I’m just curious, how did you actually choose your case and the locations that you were gonna study?

[00:19:51] Amy: Uh, great question. And these are some, you know, partially, you know, it’s research design and partially it’s just like the serendipitous or quirks of, um, funding. Mm-hmm. So when, when, when thinking about doing, uh, multi-sided ethnography, it, one of the challenges of course as a graduate student is how am I gonna support it both in terms of like financially and also time, just as one person to do this much field work.

Um, it’s, uh, it’s hard. Um mm-hmm. And so I was applying for funding and thinking about places I knew I wanted to do Los Angeles for the obvious reasons. Mm-hmm. Um, I knew I wanted to do Toronto because I, I, at the, at the time, the amount of research about Toronto was quite limited, and yet the population was clearly growing both in size and in influence and in its cultural production in particular.

So you recall I was really interested in cultural production. So one of the other things at the time I was looking for is like, communities are very active in cultural production. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I was looking at, um, what the third, uh, might be and honestly it was between Australia and Sweden. Okay. And, uh, yeah, I know.

Isn’t that, um, because Australia, again, um, there are scholars doing great work on Iranians in Australia, um, but not as much have been written about it from a cultural production perspective that I knew of at the time. And so, you know, I was really curious about that and especially thinking about looking at regions of the world that are.

We, we don’t think of as quickly without, we don’t live there, um, about the diaspora. Uh, and then in this Swedish case as well, there are some great scholars working on Iranians and Sweden and have been for quite some time. Um, but, uh, not as much again on the like cultural production side. So, um mm-hmm. I applied for, for funding and I, and, and I got funding for the Swedish, um, field work.

And so that, that’s, honestly, that’s the way that happened. But that, that is, but it was serendipitous because it really, you know, Australia also has, uh, has had a national, uh, kind of federal, uh, multiculturalism approach so that it fit into the schema, but I think Sweden actually became a much more important, um, kind of comparative along the policy level.

Uh, and, and anyway, I’m, I’m, I’m happy with how it turned out. Uh, no Shades of Australia. I’d still love to go there and kind of learn more about that community. But, um, yeah, I think this worked out for, for. For the reasons it did. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:18] Nahid: No, it’s uh, it definitely that, that’s why the question didn’t even come to me. You know, these are just great case studies, both in terms of. Divergence in policy and the populations that come about. And as you say, you know, multiculturalism or interculturalism, you really see how these, um, contexts, these country contexts, the existing populations there, the existing policies, how these all sort of melt together to produce ultimately, um, the structures in which these, uh, you know, diaspora, Iranians navigate, um, their own identities.

In your first chapter, since you traced the global trajectory of Iranian migration, can you just give us some of the broad strokes of that? If you were to talk about, you know, just, um, give sort of an introduction to Iranian migration in the modern era, let’s say, you know, post obviously sort of mid 20th century onward.

[00:23:10] Amy: Sure, sure. My, as you’ve rightly pointed out, my attention is often in the details, um, but to, to give a broad stroke, because I think, um, oftentimes when we think about the contemporary diaspora, uh, we go straight to 19 78, 19 79. Um, the story of course, is starts much earlier.

But if we think about the kind of general, um, flows in, in the kind of migration studies language, um, indeed we had a, um, a, a strong flow of students, um, leaving Iran. Beginning in the fifties, but really in the sixties and especially the seventies, uh, and especially to Europe and United States.

Uh, so, uh, that chapter kind of starts with students, uh, kind of population coming to United States such that, um, by the mid seventies it was the largest student group, um, in foreign student group in the United States was Iranians. Uh, so when the revolution, takes place, you have a group of people who are already here and grappling with.

Um, that political situation and some cases, activists who are very much contributing to it, um, from abroad, others who are, you know, trying to kind of complete their educations, um, and not sure if they can go back. Um, so when the revolution happens, a lot of those folks do go back whether to participate in a revolution or because they’re, they’re, um, uh, they have the visa visa situation, which comes after the ES crisis, of course.

Mm-hmm. Um, or they are kind of stuck here. Um, so in the terms of the, of the US we have the student group, we have those who come. After the revolution, whether as political or religious refugees, um, or as family reunification. Um, and we see that the kind of policies that I, I kind of put in that chart. I’m not really one to make charts, but, uh, I got very good advice from a colleague that, you know, I think a table here would really help, um, that when, , immigration policies change, it means that the kinds of, um, possibilities also change for immigrants And mm-hmm.

They are responding to that right. In real time. And so those who could no longer come to the US as policies change in the mid eighties, um, end up, you know, looking elsewhere. And so one of the ways that they managed to, um, uh, move, um, after the revolution during the Iran Iraq Wars. Across borders, right? So going directly to the neighbors of Iran, whether it’s Pakistan, whether it’s, um, Turkey.

And from there, kind of new refugee regime that’s emerging, uh, in the early eighties, um, in countries like Sweden and Canada become. Pathways for, Iranians who are, uh, fleeing Iran as political refugees. And so we see in Sweden, , a large community of Iranians emerging there in the, , uh, late eighties.

And largely com. Of refugees, not only, but largely. Uh, and so those folks are coming with, you know, very little resources, but a lot of say, knowledge, cultural capital, uh, very different than the Iranians who are coming to LA in some ways, right? Mm-hmm. And then, uh, refugee priorities change over time too, as conflicts, for example, uh, in Bosnia and in Kosovo start to kind of take over in terms of attention.

There’s less Iranian, uh, resettlement happening, say in Sweden. Um, and there’s also a different, difference in what’s going on in Iran. So you have the end of the Iran Iraq war. You have a situation where you’ve got a, a large population of, , young people who are, , seeking, uh, higher education or jobs that they feel they cannot achieve in Iran, and they’re looking elsewhere to see what’s possible.

Around that same time in the nineties, Canada’s restructuring it’s, uh, kind of immigration, , apparatus. Uh, we get a point system in Canada where the things like education, language capabilities, youth, and being single, are valued. Mm-hmm. And so we get a lot of Iranian individuals going to Canada beginning early in the seventies and eighties, but really picking up in the nineties and into the two thousands. These are educated young people looking to get graduate degrees or looking to work in, say, the tech sector or working in, um, areas where they aren’t able to achieve as much in Iran. Right.

We also see kind of economic situations in Iran, um, deteriorating. We see social situations in social oppressions and we see political repression. And so for a lot of different reasons, Iraq are leading, um, towards Canada. Um, and finding pathways that they can take, uh, in that regard. And as the political situation changes, we all, you know, we see flows after 2009.

We see flows after two in 2015. And the refugee, um, kind of crisis the way that Europeans talk about it. And so in each of these three sites, there’s ongoing migrations, but it really depends on the, uh, pathways that are, um, available to them, whether legally or not. Um, and how to maneuver a kind of global, migration, uh, uh, kind of regime.

We call it refugee regimes. So, yeah, that would be my, my quick and dirty though. I know it wasn’t as quick as you might have

[00:28:03] Nahid: No, no, no. That’s great. That’s great. Just wanted the broad strokes, and I think you gave still sort of broad strokes with some good details,

, I wanna get to, um, we’ll talk about, let’s, let’s actually talk about each of these, sites of research, and the, diaspora populations that you present to us in your book.

In your second chapter you are, you focus on the 2013 US tour of the Cyrus Cylinder and then the 2017 Freedom Sculpture and Freedom Festival that follow. And, you know, when, when people think about Iranian diaspora, the first site that comes to mind, of course, is Teis, right? Los Angeles. , Sort of Westwood, orange County sort of areas of, of LA where the oldest, Iranian diaspora, I suppose, sort of settled or the most populous, uh, at first.

And, you know, it also, you know, we learn in your book that this is really a diaspora that is very different in terms of its culture productions and its, um, aspirational, , presentations to themselves and their, new host country.

Can you talk a little bit about this LA population and the, how does the Cyrus Cylinder, you really sort of rooted back to the, you know, 2,500 year of, celebration of the Shah and pre-revolutionary Irans, the importance of the, how he highlights the Cyrus cylinder, and then how this is really picked up by Iranians in la.

[00:29:36] Amy: Yeah. Yeah. So the community in Los Angeles sometimes gets a bad rap. That’s my take on, on that community. I think in the diaspora there’s a, there’s this reputation of, you know, um, Los Angeles kind of, um. Not just from pop music, as you know, better than I do, but also kind of an aesthetic, a certain style, a certain self presentation that, um, leads to assumptions about, you know, certain, um, political relationships or, um, certain shallow kind of, um, materialism, those kinds of things.

But, you know, one of the things that I think sometimes gets lost in these kinds of stereotypes is that this is a really big community and it’s really diverse. There are a lot of different, uh, you know, ethnic groups, religious groups, class positions, um, identities. There’s just so many different kinds of groups in this c it is, is it actually community,

[00:30:27] Nahid: It’s diverse. I’ve, I’ve always wondered that because that’s where you may meet, you know, disproportionately. More Jewish Iranians, Armenian Iranians, um, but then again in Sweden you have Kurdish Iranians. So I wonder what’s the most diverse population that you encountered among who studied.

[00:30:45] Amy: As a social scientist, it’s very hard for me to answer that question. Like, what counts as most diverse? What are our metrics? How do we measure? But I think there’s a, there’s a good argument to be made that, um, in terms of, say, ethnic identities or in terms of religious identities, that, um, we see more of those represented in LA than in many other parts of the diaspora.

Um, and for reasons, right, for historical reasons and certain patterns of migration that we can trace. Um, but indeed there is a very large, Iranian Jewish, community. There’s also a very large Iranian Armenian community. There’s also a very large, like, secular Iranian community. Mm-hmm. Um, there’s our aan, there’s a lot of bahais.

There’s so many like, beautiful different kinds of, um, approaches to identity in that community. So I, I kind of always. Wanna start with that kind of corrective, almost like we really need to take another look at the LA community or communities, which is probably more, uh, accurate. Because we have this kind of large population, there’s a, like the luxury of having pockets, you know, there’s a kind of a, there is a certain luxury in having large numbers.

That means that you can, you can kind of cluster in certain ways. Now, that also then can have its challenges, right? That means that building unity across those subgroups is not easy. Um, and it’s a kind of, uh, described oftentimes as a divisive or a kind of fragmented, um, uh, community as well. I would argue that all of our communities have these kinds of recommendations, but perhaps LA is, is.

Maybe the most, um, obvious in that way. And nevertheless in, in thinking about, uh, kind of cultural production in this community, a lot of times people think of LA and they think of pop music, which is, certainly, , justified in a lot of ways. We have a lot of the, like, main, you know, um, Los Angeles e being a, a kind of, uh, field of music itself already tells you how important that, um, location has been for Iranian music.

But, uh, there’s also, um, kind of a, a expectation that I had. I’m not from la right? I have had an expectation with this many Iranians in one place. We would expect to see a lot of things like festivals and like public, representations of Iranian ness in the city. And this is a city that has so many different international communities and so many different ways of being, um, kind of public about those identities that isn’t necessarily the same as everywhere else, right?

LA is a car city. You’re not gonna see a lot of the same kinds of things that you might see in New York, like street parades. That’s not really LA’s thing. Uh, but there’s other ways that we can kind of see these communities that has to do with things like ethnic neighborhoods and signage that has to do with things like festivals and street street fairs, right?

Um, and yet I was a graduate student at UCLA and I’m thinking like, I don’t really see that here in la. I see it in Orange County more. We had a gon festival, um, of Orange County for, some 14, 15 years, , that the community put on. That was an, it was a ticketed event. It was a, very important site in a lot of ways.

Um, but, um, you know, looking at Sweden and seeing El Fest in and this big free, you know, festival there, I’ve seen Teon is happening in Toronto and we don’t really have that going on in la. Why, why is it that this big community has not managed to kind of organize itself in that way? Why don’t we have more political representation as a community in the city of Los Angeles, given our size and given a kind of self representation as affluent and successful and entrepreneurial and all of this?

Uh, and so that’s where the kind of question of, of the negative case comes in. Like partially it’s because we don’t have these kinds of structures in place to enable immigrant communities to do these kinds of things or to encourage them. And so the ones that do happen. Have to happen at a grassroots level, like our Magon festival, um, and or has to be ticketed or it has to somehow financially make sense.

And so, um, in the case of LA in, in, in this chapter, I really look at, um, the emergence of a neoliberal form of multiculturals in the United States where this kind of disinvestment, um, by the state in its people, leads to this bootstrapping approach to inclusion where immigrants themselves are having to kind of make their own way and figure it all out.

And so those with the most, uh, uh, affluence mm-hmm. The most capital we can say both social capital in terms of networks and financial capital, um, are the ones who then can kind of determine what the public face of Iranian identity is in Los Angeles. And so as a result, I argue, um, one of the kinds of themes we see in these, , public displays that do exist in LA is this kind of hyper focus on ancient Iran on.

The kind of symbols of the Achaemenid empire. Mm-hmm. Um, a persepolis of Cyrus Stick. Great. The Cyrus cylinder. Um, and this is especially the case in the period that I’m looking at and one of the things I like, yeah. The term for it cyro mania is cyro mania. Right. Like in the period I’m talking about, and I wanna be really clear, this is book is almost historical.

Like it really is about a decade of time, you know, where Right. We don’t really, you know, things have changed already, uh, since I did field work, but in any case, in this period we really started to see almost this obsessive kind of heightening of Cyrus the great as the representation of, all that is good about Iran.

Right? And so this kind of, um, nostalgic view of the Persian Empire of Cyrus stick rate, and especially the Cyrus cylinder and the kind of narrative of the cylinder as being the kind of. First Declaration of human rights, and therefore an ancient contribution to all that is, you know, good about American democracy.

And so the argument gets made through, not only that, exhibition that I focus on of the cylinder in 2013, but then following it this, um, the Freedom Sculpture and the festival that follows it are kind of really reinforcing this message that Iranian Americans deserve to be included, deserve to be recognized as good citizens because of our ancient contributions

to American democracy that Cyrus the Great was the founder of Human Rights and the Cyropedia which was written, um, hundreds of years later, obviously by, uh, ancient Greeks. Um. As a biography of Cyrus, though it’s largely fictionalized, uh, was read by Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin and the founding fathers who wrote essentially, um, American Democracy.

And so by virtue of that ancient contribution, you shouldn’t be excluding us. You shouldn’t be discriminating against us. You shouldn’t be, interrogating us at the border. You shouldn’t be disallowing our relatives from Iran to visit us. You shouldn’t be treating us any differently. You should be proud of our Americanness.

It’s an argument that works in the US because in the US that there’s the kind of history of contribution is right, right? Italian Americans did it. German Americans did it. So they’re looking at. Immigrants before them. They’re not, you know, coming up with this, um, argument out of nothing.

Right. So this, that’s why this local context makes, makes a huge impact that mm-hmm. The argument that Italian Americans made is that Christopher Columbus founded America. Mm-hmm. We gave you, you know, the Italian renaissance we gave you, uh, the whole idea about, um, the enlightenment. This was, this was us, you know?

Mm-hmm. So, uh, and not only that, we also contributed to you, , your economic success. We fought for you during wars. We, you know, include us because we are more American than you. Um, so, you know, these kinds of arguments have had, um, precedent. Mm-hmm. Now, the success of those arguments is not always.

Guaranteed. Right. And indeed, it really only has worked in the past for Ellis Island immigrants, which we think of as the, you know, like the northern and western European, um, immigrants in the 19th century, um, to the us. Whereas it hasn’t really worked for other groups, even though they’ve been here in many cases quite longer.

We look at Mexican Americans. If we look at Chinese Americans, right. They can’t quite make that argument stick. Mm-hmm. And so part of the, um, part of the puzzle here is also a racial argument. Right. There is certainly part of the, um, kind of focus on the ancient past also has to do with aria and identity and the idea of aria inness as being whiteness, and therefore Iranians should be there for counted as white.

Um mm-hmm. So there’s a lot in that chapter. So, but that’s, that’s kind of the way that, that I kind of approach the question of cultural production and the ideas of citizenship and of belonging and of inclusion and an American context.

[00:39:31] Nahid: It’s fascinating I mean, they’re basically reformulating as you write. Know, Cyrus, heroic, modern figure, who espoused all these values that America today stands for, right. Religious tolerance, individual freedom. Diversity, or maybe we should say, used to stand for, I dunno.

[00:39:47] Amy: Fast moving situation here. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:50] Nahid: You know, but it, it’s, it’s fascinating because in the 1980s, as you also Right, Iranians , although they were, uh, the largest number of asylum, seekers and grantees, they were of course hated, right. Because of the crisis. And I remember this anecdote that you write in one of your, , interviews with, , somebody who moved to LA as a kid talking about how their neighbor’s number plate on the car had a Mickey Mouse saying, Hey, Iran.

And, uh, flipping them off

and kid to say, you know, even Mickey Mouse hated us. And so

[00:40:25] Amy: Come around. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:27] Nahid: decades later, I suppose to finally, basically strategize this, plugging identity and inclusion in America to its core. Right?

[00:40:39] Amy: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:40] Nahid: values or ancient Iranian values.

[00:40:42] Amy: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of this has, there, a lot of the cultural organizing that I talk about in this book, and not just in the US but in, in general, has to do with this idea of feeling misrecognized, uhhuh and feelings of exclusion and discrimination. And in the US case, perhaps more than elsewhere, it really was a hostage crisis and the kind of level of vitriol that people who were here at that time faced from their neighbors, their former friends, their former colleagues, their professors, their, you know, and, and the, the deep scars of that time, um, that.

Keep getting reignited every time geopolitics flares between the US and Iran. And as we know, that’s 47 plus years of pretty constant flaring. Um, and so that is a wound that has never been able to heal. And so the kinds of, , approaches that people take are quite understandable in the context of the situations they find themselves in

[00:41:36] Nahid: We could talk about, you know, just that second chapter for,

[00:41:39] Amy: whole lot longer. Whole book could have been just a second chapter, right

[00:41:44] Nahid: you know, it could be interest of sort of covering the rest of your book. And, and, uh, the limited have, move on to your chapter three where you examine, how Swedish Discourses of Interculturalism animated the efforts of Iranians in stockholm’s cultural industries to produce El Fein, the celebration of the Iranian holiday.

Charles Uri and I, I mean, just please describe to us what is El Fest in.

[00:42:14] Amy: Yeah, elves is fascinating. It’s a, so, as I said, it is a, a celebration of trash industry. It kind of emerges, , from the 2009 kind of moment of, uh, Iranian diaspora, kind of, um, almost what I think of as an awakening that it was, you know, so much was happening, um, in Iran around, , the, where is my vote, kind of, um, protests, uh, that move quickly into repression and some terrifying outcomes that.

[00:42:40] Nahid: Nine.

[00:42:41] Amy: Exactly in 2009. And so this green movement moment became a time when people were started to organize in new ways where they hadn’t really been engaged before. And one of the kinds of groups who were engaged in that, young people in Stockholm said, let’s put on a festival, um, if, if Tar Baie is not allowed to be celebrated in Iran, that is all the more important that we celebrate it here, and that we use it as a way for people to understand who we are and our culture and our identity.

And so it kind of comes from that moment. It gets picked up in a, in a way that, , maybe is unexpected. So, uh, the way that they’re able to do it is partially through Swedish cultural policy that really encourages, , international communities to be engaged with things like the theater. And so the National Touring Theater is the main funder of El Fest Veen, which explains why it looks like a festival on a stage.

Uh, it is very highly and professionally produced. Mm-hmm. It’s, it flows beautifully. It lighting is perfection, the sound quality is immaculate. Uh, and it, it looks like, um, multiple musical acts, oftentimes very attentive to ethnic diversity. So you’ll have a Kurdish group, you might have an Azerbaijani song, you might have a dance performance of, you know, various, um, ethnic, um, communities.

And Iran. You also have, um, mm-hmm performances by musicians and a variety of genres. Iranian genres and non Iranian genres. And so in those early years especially, you would have maybe, , a Latin music, um, performance. You might have a Persian rapper, you might have a traditional ensemble, a Persian music ensemble, all in the same event.

And then you had fire jumping, um, among the crowd and you had maybe hod was kind of, uh, on stage cracking jokes or things like that. Okay? So that was the kind of early years, but that led to these kinds of contestations that I end up thinking about in the chapter where, what does tar history look like in diaspora and what does it look like in Iran?

And they don’t look the same, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so how do we kind of reckon with the ways that, um. Iranians in the Stockholm context, particularly at that time in the early 2010s, were thinking about cultural belongings. So not only belonging to society, but the belongings I owned, the cultural things that are mine that you as a a, a government cannot change.

And so a lot of the, um, organizers of this event, they were Iranians, right? And they were Iranians who were trying to build a certain set of, , assets for the community. Mm-hmm. Meaning recognition by the state, meaning being able to put the state’s budget towards our cultural stuff. Um, and also to include not only Iranians, but everyone.

So there was always this ethos of, um, everything for everyone, which comes out of Swedish cultural policy and the Swedish Theater. And so, , that meant English on stage, not only Persian, that meant, um, Swedish as well. That meant, you know, including non Iranian, obviously Iranian things. And so that led to these contestations that they were changing tar and that they were stripping the Iranian ownership of this cultural.

Tradition, um, in the name of Interculturalism Uhhuh that we should change. Uh, and you can change too. So you take us and include us in your calendar. So elves is kind of considered it a Swedish tradition at, um, starting, , after several years of its success, it was broadcasts on national TV and national radio.

It became the topic of quiz shows. People would know that El Fest in meant an Iranian festive tradition. Uh, that happens at the new year, right? It’s not an uncommon thing for Swes to have known in the 2010s. And then, you know, uh, that inclusion though is what, , the organizers were, were aiming for, um, the Iranian Swedish organizers, but for others, that is not something they would be willing to trade their sense of ownership over Iranian culture for.

Mm-hmm. Right. So there’s kind of debates about what should inclusion look like, what is cultural authenticity, who has the right to represent Iranian culture and what do they represent? Uh, so those are all kind of questions percolating in that chapter.

[00:46:47] Nahid: Interesting. And, you know, an anecdote you have just to describe this sort of discontent over losing some of the Iranian of these cultural expressions because of this, uh, you know, Swedish notion of interculturalism. You have this anecdote that someone tells you about shahar, the Sid, the city of tales of about the, you know, the newcomer elephant who comes into the town and, , all these other animals that never seen, , a creature like that before.

And they ask him, , why do you look so strange basically, and start off chipping away at the elephant, right? Cutting the, the, um, , the trunk and the, you know, different parts of , the elephant and ultimately leaving it looking like, um,

It.

[00:47:31] Amy: Something unrecognizable un Right, right, right, right, right. May they make him change his name from field to manner chair. Right. Right. They make him. Right. So there’s ways of changing the elephant into something The elephant can no longer recognize himself. Right. Uhhuh and the name of fitting in, in the shot.

Mm-hmm. And so this particular individual was a harsh critic of, of El Veon, and so felt that this is what was happening to their tradition. Mm-hmm. Um, but it’s, I mean, this is something that, um, kind of lies at the, the, the root of the matter, right. As kind of like how much are immigrants expected to adjust versus how much society expected to adjust.

Is there a agreement about what that should look like, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and for, , these individuals, they were very much unwilling to make that exchange. Um mm-hmm. Yeah. .

[00:48:25] Nahid: It’s interesting because you know, you’re, you also have these not. Numbers in your chapter whereby Sweden has one of the largest gaps, uh, unemployment gaps between immigrant populations and Swedish , populations, where, um, I forget the exact numbers, but something like 80 some percent or maybe 90% of Swedish, adults are employed versus only, I don’t know, something like 50 or 60% of, , immigrants including Iranians.

And that this somehow points to, , despite top down, you know, interculturalism and efforts to really create a population that is integrated. At the same time, there are, , implicit biases in which these immigrant populations have a harder time having access to the same opportunities.

[00:49:13] Amy: There’s been, um, good research on this, um, um, that other scholars have done. Shaham post review has done a study That’s right. Looking at names, for example, and, and the, you know, kind of classic study if, if you change the name on a resume, but nothing else about the details, Uhhuh does the person get a call.

Right. You get an interview. Um, so these kinds of studies have been done, you know, in, in the Swedish context that really demonstrates some of the challenges. I mean, some of my interviewees mentioned, and I, I think I quote them in there, some of the challenges they’ve had in finding work, um, as an immigrant.

And so there’s, there’s absolutely, um, inequalities that need to be, uh, addressed that multiculturalism has an adequately, um. Managed. At the same time, there is a tendency to see Iranians as exceptions. Uh, and so I know you’re shocked to hear it. Um, we, we have this problem and a lot of our communities are kind of viewing ourselves as exceptional.

So whether it’s Persian exceptionalism or Iranian exceptionalism, but that’s, um, you know, a lot of the kind of, especially on the right in Sweden, um, uh, commentary will point to the successful, um mm-hmm. Achievements of Iranian immigrants to say, look, it’s not us, it’s the immigrants. If they aren’t succeeding, it’s their fault.

’cause look, the Iranians are doing fine. Right? Right. And of course, not all Iranians are doing fine, but there are ways of rhetorical strategies of, of kind of using, uh, Iranians to make a case for, um, not providing immigrants with certain, um, support. And , in Sweden, as in all of my field sites, we’ve seen a sharp move to the right.

Um, politically since I started my field work, perhaps most, um, starkly in Sweden, but not only there, ,

but alongside the 2015 refugee crisis and the way that Sweden responded, there’s been a sharp backlash against immigrants. And so, again, I think of my book almost historically, even though it’s very recent, it’s still kind of a snapshot, , taken over a decade, , where we can kind of trace the changes in that society and the way Iranians have been, um, kind of configured within the, , the discourse around immigration and around, , Swedish identity.

[00:51:16] Nahid: You have this anecdote also about Suzanne Taimi, one of the

[00:51:20] Amy: You know.

[00:51:20] Nahid: most beloved acts of Iranian cinema. Um, sort of heartbreaking story, although ultimately her story is one of triumph because she ends up being very successful in the theater scene there. But, you know, arriving from Iran and Sweden and having to be an assistant to, , a theater director and bringing them coffee and tea, and in the evening, sort of breaking away to go speak about one of her films that was being screened at , the Gutenberg Festival.

Um, you layer your chapters with, um, plenty sort of texture of these different experiences and, uh, it really is, , rich because it’s a work of ethnography

[00:52:02] Amy: yeah. Thank, thanks for that. I really, I mean, I just wanna say one, one thing about that is that I think the reason I was drawn to anthropology was not only because it allowed for this kind of big, big structural questions, but specifically because of ethnography and the kind of value of being in the field, right?

So ethnography in terms of the kind of field work that we do methodologically, but also the way that we write. And so that these kinds of, um, textural moments or, um, anecdotes or vignettes, or however you wanna describe them for me, is kind of where I think understanding can become more real, especially in the classroom.

Um, I find when I teach ethnography, students can kind of grasp theory mm-hmm. More easily. Right, right. For sure. It, it feels more real somehow when you’re reading someone’s testimony or you’re reading , someone’s like lived experience, so. Right. I, I tried to keep as much of that in as I could.

[00:52:55] Nahid: Yeah, there’s , definitely,, that richness in there. Um, your third site.

[00:53:02] Amy: Right.

[00:53:02] Nahid: Is again, a very different side from the previous two because the diaspora populations there, tend to be newer, right? Mm-hmm. Many of them in more recent times have arrived in Toronto, and so they have deeper connections.

They have deeper connections with Iranians back home because they’re more recent immigrants and so it tends to be a more. Um, politically sort of activated diaspora population.

So you start your chapter by writing about the downing of the Ukrainian airliner flight , 752, where a large number of Iranians perished, with many of them actually because the flood was headed via Ukraine to Toronto, many of them from Toronto. Can you talk a little bit about this diaspora population and , why you ultimately chose to focus on tear gun this, um mm-hmm.

Fascinating culture festival where I actually ran into you, uh, when you

[00:54:04] Amy: Yeah, that’s right. Years ago. That’s right. You were

[00:54:07] Nahid: active interviewing one of your one.

[00:54:10] Amy: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Toronto is, um, just an incredible place in general. Um, but it is one where there are a lot of different immigrant groups and a lot of, um, uh, uh, there’s a lot of sense of, , the, the scale of that, , as you walk the city, right, where you can kind of, it’s very, very visible kind of diversity.

, And one that the city has generally been quite proud of, even in light of recent, um, changes to the ways we think or talk about diversity in, in the United States, , in, uh, the case of Iranians and, and Toronto. And why I wanted to focus on, um, is a real, uh, is a really unique, . Staying in our diaspora, and I have been going to Tirgan since 2011.

I, uh, volunteered for that festival that year while I was doing field work. And, um, one of the ways that it’s quite unique is that this is not, , a festival that’s being produced by professionals, uh, in event production. This is a festival being produced by volunteers, , 300 volunteers who are working together towards the ultimate goal of this like four day festival.

Mm-hmm. Which at its height, um, had 150,000 attendees. Uh, which is, you know, for someone who is living out, away from their homeland to be among, you know, a hundred thousand of your, , fellow Iranians is such a . Unique opportunity. Uh, you don’t get that very often. And so the feel of turon for a lot of people is of being back home and being home in a Canadian context.

And so, , working with a lot of the, , folks in, in the festival, starting in, in that early, , iteration was, , really interesting for me. What made them as, you know, graduate students as lawyers, as real estate, um, agents, as bankers give up so much of their free time towards putting on an arts festival, they, these were not arts professionals.

These were not event producers. These are not theater, , directors, right? So in my other context, the people putting on those festivals are professionals in some kind of cultural arts. Sphere. These were not, right. These were folks in it, these were engineers, these were people who were committed to Iranian culture on a personal level, but not a professional level, right?

Mm-hmm. And so that was fascinating also, um, to me as someone interested in cultural production, right? But it also became about something bigger because , this became almost like, , an example of what Iman has called school. Where like immigrant groups are working together, they’re learning how to build something in the Canadian context, in a quote Canadian way, how to work together as a key school.

Sorry, Amy. I I did you say school? Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah. Like schools where you’re like, really put learning lessons. Right? Right. Um, so, so there, you know, the Canadian government doesn’t, , necessarily, uh, just hand you a check, right? Mm-hmm. You are working with an intermediary and so the intermediary for GON was a place called the Harbor Front Center that had at the time a community partnership program where they would work with.

Community groups, most of them, , immigrant, but not all, um, in order to put on a festival. And the festival tradition in Toronto, the summer festival tradition is pretty, , well known and celebrated, especially at the time in the 2010s when multiculturalism was much more of a key, , piece of identity.

And so every weekend in the summer, you know, uh, it’s beautiful in the summer in Toronto, unlike in the winters when it’s so cold, everyone’s out at, on the streets going to these fairs and festivals. And so one way of kind of showing up as a community is to have one of these festivals. And so the Iranian students at U of T, um, and, , at the time Ryerson, that’s TMU started working together for putting on a Nous festival, but it was really cold and it had to be inside.

Mm-hmm. So what can we do in the summer? And then , they kind of figure out a way to create a summer event around Tirgan. So reanimating, this ancient Zo Austrian tradition. Mm-hmm. But not really. Right. They’re not looking at what did Zoroastrian do, and let’s do that. We wanna make a Canadian festival.

We had certain imperatives from the Canadian state for how this would work through the intermediary. It needed to be contemporary Iranian culture. It needed to be about particular, , kind of limitations on, say political expression, right? This needed to be about arts and culture in a very particular way, right?

Divorcing it of its politics somehow. Um, and to really, , put forward Iranian culture and put forward Iranian art through that Canadian kind of frame, right? Mm-hmm. , So in doing that, it meant that you managed to get a big crowd, right? Like they wouldn’t allow flags, they didn’t allow political discourse.

They really tried to see arts and culture as a unifying, um, pathway, , for a community that’s otherwise quite fragmented, right? Especially politically. , And so for people who were, you know, newcomers to Canada who missed their friends and family back home, this became one, a place where you. Really exist within a Iranian, , environment, uh, in Canada.

But two, for the volunteers, it created a kind of effective kinship where they’re new family, uh, they’re coming as individuals, they’re not coming with family members, and they’re young people meeting lots of other young Iranians and kind of building a sense of kinship through working towards a common goal, right?

Mm-hmm. And so that’s really powerful. It’s really effective and mm-hmm. Uh, and, and building a lot of networks, , in Toronto, both for the community and within the community.

[00:59:32] Nahid: You’re right about, you know, sort of strategies of inclusion, , being ultimately acts of home, , building

Sort of structures, whether they’re cultural affective, where one can belong and it sounds like gon really, uh, fulfills that. But you know, you also write about the tension, between this sort of notion of, for Iran, nonpartisan, nonpolitical, , and yet , the fact that , this community in Toronto is very engaged and political with events back home and trying to

[01:00:03] Amy: Navigate.

[01:00:04] Nahid: this.

And I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about, you know, you write, , what new forms of belonging can emerge when resistance is not only permitted but enabled. And I wonder if you can explain a little bit what you mean by that. Uh.

[01:00:16] Amy: Mm. One of the ways that, um, as a nonprofit in the Canadian context, that Tear Gun was able to continue to get, say, provincial grants or, um, build networks with local government in order to make the festival possible, um, was to kind of fit within kind of Canadian expectations for nonprofit groups and to kind of operate within.

A nonpartisan domain. And that’s not unique to gon not in Canada, not in the diaspora more broadly. A lot of our arts and cultural organizations in the diaspora have for a long time, um, put forward a nonpartisan kind of, uh, mission statement or vision statement in order to not kind of fall into the, , pitfalls of this division over political beliefs.

, And so that worked for a long time, but when certain social movements and political movements have emerged, especially in the last, um, five years or so, um, it became stress tests for that commitment to nonpartisanship and therefore to the ability for the organization to function in that particular set of expectations.

And so, , you know, I, I use the example of, , the hashtag me too movement and of course women Life Freedom as moments where the organization really had to kind of. Reckon with, , some of the ideals of liberal multiculturalism that were being espoused both by the Canadian government and by their own kinds of references to multiculturalism on the festival stage or in their own mission statements, um, versus the practices of the organization itself versus the kind of demands of the community or , you know, community seeing them as our nonprofit.

Why isn’t our nonprofit speaking up for Iranians and Iran in this political moment? Right? Um, and so the kinds of constraints that they were operating under, um, kind of, uh, led to this, um, really kind of decisive moment, especially in, in 2023, and how, how to deal with, um. Uh, being, say, nonpartisan and an arts organization, but being called upon by the community that it represents and serves to do more to be outwardly political.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so to your question, um, in the, in the ways that multicultural policies are enabling these kinds of organizations, there’s also a set of expectations about things like professionalism, things like behavior that foreclose the possibilities of resistance that may otherwise emerge. Hmm. And so, um, I leave it as a question in the book because it’s one that I don’t have a great answer to you, um, at the moment.

But on the one hand, how do you, , build something? How do you create, uh, a community kind of organization that is at, , once responsible? Um, two and four, the community that emerges out of while also, um, kind of having to stay within the confines of the system in which it is emerging, right?

Mm-hmm. And is, is this maybe a time where we try to think differently about how we build those community? Mm-hmm.

[01:03:28] Nahid: This actually gives me a really great segue into.

[01:03:31] Amy: you.

[01:03:32] Nahid: Fortunately, what will have to be my final, uh, question to you, and I hope you don’t mind me,, drawing on your body of work among these, uh, diaspora populations to really circle us around to very contemporary question, which is, given that a majority of these diaspora populations do have connections with loved ones, back at home, family and friends, uh, some of them more so than others, I assume, , but nevertheless, , given , this, uh, communication blackout that we’ve had for over two weeks now following the January, 2026, , protests, have you observed how these different populations or communities have responded differently or, , organized differently?

How they’ve shown up on the streets differently? I’ve seen lots of footage from, , Iranians and other people in solidarity with them showing up on the streets. . What have you, what have you observed and how does

that, to the work that you’ve just so wonderfully presented us with?

[01:04:32] Amy: I mean, you know, all I can say is that it’s maybe a testament to how quickly things change. And, you know, diaspora, like all other groups are not static. Our identities certainly aren’t static. And how we mm-hmm think of ourselves within communities isn’t static. And so, , I think what I’ve seen at least from, , from afar, unfortunately, , has been in the diaspora, uh, yes, activism in the streets in Toronto, and huge numbers, um, despite snowstorms and, and weather that would, um, suggest otherwise.

We see a huge, huge outpouring of, , support for Iranians in Iran. Uh, anger against the Ham Republic, , frustration with, , other international actors that they believe should have been more supportive, et cetera. Um, in Los Angeles, we’ve also seen, , street demonstrations. Uh, , in Stockholm we’ve seen demonstrations as well, and, and in Stockholm we saw two demonstrations happening side by side simultaneously in the city, um, with different political orientations.

So, I’ve found that to be quite telling, , of, of the diversity of political opinions in that, in that location. In any case, um, we have, we’re in a very difficult time as Iranians, , especially in Iran, , but also of course in the diaspora. And, um, I don’t have like a neat way to tie this up because I think we’re really in the middle of it.

Um, this is not. This is not the end. , We’ve only just begun to see how, how things are playing out and, um, as we start to see more images coming out of Iran, just how devastating the, , loss of life has been and not really feeling like we can do things in diaspora has been very challenging for a lot of us.

Um, and I think a lot of that frustration, a lot of that anger gets, um, sometimes misdirected, um, at each other rather than at mm-hmm. The actual, um, enemy, the actual target. Um, unfortunately.

[01:06:24] Nahid: I mean, maybe we just leave it on that, uh, not very hopeful note.

[01:06:30] Amy: Well, we can still be hopeful, , that things will change and the in positive directions. , But I do think that we are, not in a, in a time where we are able to make a diagnosis or a prognosis. We’re kind of like in the middle in Thera having to, having to watch and see Right. And, and kind of, right. Yeah.

[01:06:48] Nahid: Okay. Well, thank you so much Amy. Sorry for pressing you with a very difficult question at the end.

[01:06:55] Amy: It’s okay. No, no, that’s okay. I, I, you know, my heart is really with the, the, the people in Iran and, and thinking about that is something that I think we all share. Uh, you know? Mm-hmm. If, if we can think about one thing where we are all of Iranians, Andras, no matter where we are. That’s right. There’re always the eyes on Iran and hearts with the Iranians and, , that will always bind us.

Exactly. That’s, it’s the love free run kind of runs through all of us, so

[01:07:19] Nahid: Right. Well, thanks for formulating it like that. Um,

[01:07:24] Amy: thank you so much.

[01:07:25] Nahid: Amy, this has been a really wonderful conversation. It’s been a pleasure reading your book. Thank you. And, uh, I hope some, , folks pick it up after listening to this conversation because we just about scratched the surface. Much in this book.

Our guest was Amy Malik. She’s a social cultural anthropologist specializing in the intersections of migration, citizenship, memory, and culture. She’s associate professor of Anthropology and American Studies at William and Mary. Thanks so much again, Amy.

[01:07:57] Amy: Thank you. I really appreciate your careful read and, it’s been a pleasure to speak with you.

[01:08:02] Nahid: Take care.