Into the COLAverse – Episode 11: Paola Bonifazio

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Into the Colaverse, a podcast that takes us on the unique journeys of faculty in the College of Liberal Arts at UT Austin. Join me your host, Frederick Luis Aldama as we learn of the many ways that our faculty and their cutting edge work is transforming the world today. It is my great honor to welcome Paola Bonifazio, chair of the Department of French and Italian, where she’s also associate Professor.

[00:00:31] Frederick: Welcome Paola

[00:00:33] Paola: Thank you. Nice to be here in the virtual space.

[00:00:36] Frederick: Yay, into the cola verse. Here we go. So I have, I’m bursting with all sorts of questions about your, your journey, your, your origin story, um, the books you’ve published, uh, your, your work on the, the photo novel. Of course we have a, a very rich tradition of that in, in Latin America as well.

[00:00:59] Frederick: Yes. But before we jump into that, um, You know, you’ve got your PhD at NYU and the MA at pi, University of Pittsburgh. You’ve had a national endowment for the humanities, um, fellowship. But how, what launched you on your journey? And maybe especially just cuz I’m, you know, selfishly asking, What got you interested in, in this area?

[00:01:27] Frederick: Well, you know, in American comics we call fui anything that has photographs. Um, but I know that that’s actually the term simply for comics in Italy. But tell me about everything, film, uh, photo novels, your journey. Was it something you were, you know, in the water you were drinking as a kid?

[00:01:48] Paola: Well, no, not really actually.

[00:01:49] Paola: Um, I graduated in Italy. Uh, I did my BA in, um, performance studies. So I actually started by studying theater and, um, in drama theory. But then when I went to, when I came to the US for my. PhD. Um, I just got very much interested in film studies, so I’m a film scholar by training. Um, but what really intrigues me in terms of research is to study what we can say, you know, quote unquote marginal, um, products, you know, And so as I.

[00:02:24] Paola: As a film scholar, um, I became interested in, in photo novel, uh, because of the way in which they were both extremely successful, but then at the same time completely, you know, absent from scholarship, despised in the press, uh, considered like trash, um, culture. So in a way I kind of. I arrived at, um, at this, uh, at this book that I just published, uh, from a sideway, you know, from more, more intrigued by, uh, the old cultural phenomenon than by the, uh, object itself.

[00:03:01] Paola: And, and kind of, I did the same with my, my first book was said about this, uh, totally unknown, but hundred. Of short films that advertise the Marshall Plan and Modernization in Italy in the 1950s. And again, a phenomenon there was extremely, uh, you know, widespread, uh, throughout Europe in those years, but then kind of just fell into oblivion.

[00:03:24] Paola: Um, so my work is a little bit of that, of its scavenger and, and looking and digging, uh, in the. Less expected places for, um, objects that I believe are worth of our attention is scholars,

[00:03:38] Frederick: you know, Was did you have any pushback at all, or did you have any hesitation? I, I only ask because, you know, um, let me just share, like the comic studies as a field, you know, has only just recently started to really get its feet and not have to kind of apologize for what we’re doing.

[00:03:58] Frederick: Mm-hmm. . You know, these are areas, low culture, uh, low brow, no brow trash culture where people just don’t think that there’s any value. So yeah, that’s my, I guess my first question about

[00:04:12] Paola: that. Yeah, I mean, um, you know, I come from a country, Italy, uh, where. Believe it or not, the entire field of gender studies is also not considered.

[00:04:24] Paola: Um, and I did my PhD at NYU, um, which is, you know, a place that is great for film studies, but within the Department of Italian Studies, I was one of the first, um, who was interested in, you know, um, You know, who, who is not interested in the study of literature as much as in the study of film and media. So in a way, um, I guess I find myself at home in the places where scholars don’t belong.

[00:04:51] Paola: Um, and um, and yeah, I would agree with you. You know, then there is a sort of like Yeah. Or keys of. Media texts, right? And the photo novel, if you want, is at the bottom of the bottom right? Um, in, in the, especially in the 1950s, sixties and seventies, when it was the most popular, it wasn’t even, not even considered as good as comics.

[00:05:14] Paola: Right. Um, it’s kind of a derivative form of comics because you use photographs instead of drawings, and so there is no artistic value or, um, that was the idea, um, among scholars that there was no kind of, uh, uh, inventive or creative, uh uh, there could not be any kind of creativity behind the making of these.

[00:05:35] Paola: But what I was very interested in, um, What I’m very interested in is the fact that there is this association also between the photo novel as a type of comics and the audience that is that of the female audience. So then the cultural Y is becomes really, um, Intertwining with the kind of gender and the fact that cultural products for women are not as valuable, or the idea that they would not be as valuable as those for a male audience.

[00:06:05] Paola: Um, they’re considered, you know, tried narrative sentimental, um, things that do not really. Um, do not really even, uh, uh, deserve the name of culture. Right. Um, so I, I think in that sense there, there are many, you know, there, there are many, um, places where scholars could go that have not been, um, yet, uh, um, approach because of the many different hierarchies that are within academia and.

[00:06:39] Paola: You know, makes things, the value things for their quality. Um, and do not consider, for example, the sociological aspect of the culture phenomenon. Um, so in that sense, the photo novel with respect to comics is perhaps even , even more, um, excluded right from. And, and people don’t even know that they existed.

[00:07:03] Paola: Many, many people I talk to, um, especially in the us, they’re not really familiar with them. Um, as much as they could be familiar. Instead with, um, people in, um, In South America, in France, in Italy, all the Latin country where, um, there is a very long tradition of making, uh, photo novels. How,

[00:07:25] Frederick: when you were doing your work, I, um, and I don’t want to go too deep in here just because I don’t wanna lose our listeners, but did you, Of course there is in the production, dissemination and consumption significant.

[00:07:41] Frederick: Ripples and enrichments, uh, across, you know, um, gender, sexuality, you know, all sorts of areas and issues. I wondered political, religious, social, I wonder. Too, if there was an aesthetic that you began to tease out, um, the selection, the framing, the, the composition, not the layout. You know, all of that type of stuff that we might talk about as an aesthetic of the photo romance.

[00:08:14] Paola: Yeah. I mean, definitely. Um, It’s kind of like, okay, when we talk about film, right? Um, everybody knows that there are different type of films, right? Without going into deep into like a film studies perspective. And if viewer know that there is a film, so called art film and a film that is called Commercial thing, that you have blockbuster movies and so.

[00:08:39] Paola: In a way, uh, the photo novel is no different as a medium, right? Um, and for example, today there are several artists who experiment with the medium of the photo novel. That is a very idea that you can write a story by means of photographs, captions, and. Yes or no balloons. Right? So like, like in a com you sometimes you may have a unit, a photo novel that has only caption and photograph.

[00:09:08] Paola: So the medium itself then has a variety of, like, it’s, it’s as open as any other, uh, medium to experimentation and therefore also to a static experimentation, right? But as a matter of fact, what I was interested in, um, was really much more the type of. Photo novel that is really, um, emblematic of mass culture where you don’t have any authors where it’s really a product of the industry that is shaped to the desire and expectation of the audience, uh, where there is no sense of aesthetic because that’s not, um, the primary, uh, The, the primary interests of those who are making them and those who are making them are aiming at entertaining and not, uh, necessarily at producing, um, you know, uh, aesthetically valuable objects.

[00:10:03] Paola: Right? Although within them, like there are different types and. and, and different types of, um, readers, Right. Because of the differences in terms of aesthetics of the object.

[00:10:14] Frederick: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Really. Um, fascinating. Paola, for you, what is, what is convergence culture in your work?

[00:10:23] Paola: Yeah, well, um, Okay, so the idea is that, um, the history of media or the production of media is text, um, is not divided into separate boxes.

[00:10:40] Paola: Um, and so especially today, but my work. Kind of shows that it’s not contemporary thing only. Um, whenever the industry produces, uh, for example, a film, um, then there is a possibility, the idea and sometimes even already, um, the, uh, intention of making other, uh, media. That expand the narrative or that particular film, For example, making a TV series or, uh, in the case of, you know, of the, uh, photo novel in the fifties and sixties, you would always have a film and then it’s printed version in a photo novel.

[00:11:22] Paola: Um, and then. You have the expansion of a narrative into what we call a narrative world. So that’s one of the main, um, the main, uh, uh, way to describe it. The other way to to talk about it is that again, the fact that you are talking about kind culture that is converging different media because has the intention of appealing to a kind of audience that is a sort of a nomad.

[00:11:46] Paola: Just an audience that is not limited. It does not just like to go watch a movie. It’s a type of spectator that, um, can be much more enticed and become a loyal customer, uh, of, you know, uh, for, for a, a movie company. If also that particular product is then expanded into other, um, kinds of media that could be also television, of course, radio.

[00:12:10] Paola: Um, so it’s just kind of an idea of, of a culture that is. Work at one. Right? And you don’t only have, uh, one media, media medium, um, alone, but you have a connection between all of them because of the fact that, um, audiences, um, have this kind of expectation or be able to expand into, be, entertain across multiple media platform.

[00:12:35] Frederick: Yeah, absolutely. Um, in, you know, we see it of course with the Hollywood Beeth, this huge, you know, Hollywood industrial complex and it sort of grabbing everything, you know, um, lead up with comics to right the big tent film and, you know, everything. Even action figures. Um, but how does a country like Italy kind of , you know, with its much sort of smaller general kind of production of a conversions culture, you know, how do you see it working within that national

[00:13:12] Paola: space?

[00:13:13] Paola: Yeah, I guess, um, I guess you, it is, it’s again, um, finding, um, you can find it in the most unexpected place. So like, yes, you would think, you know, Italy as a, um, as a country cannot be farther from, let’s say the Hollywood context. But as a matter of fact, since the 1930s in Italy, um, Media companies, they already worked very similar to what today we call conglomerates or to what we call an integrated firm.

[00:13:46] Paola: So for example, you would have that is a very major famous publisher who also owned a. A, uh, film production company, um, and also had a news real company. So at the same time, they could, uh, publish books, publish magazines, Illustrated magazine, especially where you would find, for example, advertisement for a movie that they produce.

[00:14:10] Paola: And then this movie that they produce would also be advertising the news reel, um, that was shown before other movies. So as a matter of fact, not only, um, this way of. Producing, um, media production. It’s not just contemporary, but it can be, you know, in a way you can do it sort of archeology of, um, convergence culture, but also, uh, it’s much more expanded globally than you would expect in a country like Italy was actually at the other guard, um, in those years and.

[00:14:47] Paola: The photo novel is an example in that sense of, um, publishers in the fifties, late forties, um, who understood that, for example, the power of advertisement and the way in which you could brand, uh, culture and associate, for example, certain characters with certain brands, um, so that the magazines would be the place for certain companies, industry.

[00:15:16] Paola: Of, uh, goods to advertise their product. Knowing that readers would then, for example, on tv, uh, watch these, uh, very famous, uh, advertisement, uh, television advertisement where you would have associated a character, um, with a product, a little story, um, with the, with the commercial, uh, with a commercial product.

[00:15:39] Paola: So in, in a way, um, Italy was not. Uh, you know, Italy as a, especially in the possible period. Of course, that’s where I focus especially, um, was really, um, if you want Americanized . Um, but definitely a country where, um, mass culture and mass production for mass consumption was very much developed and conversions.

[00:16:01] Paola: Culture is, uh, basically, uh, it comes with it right? It comes with a certain, uh, way. Yeah, absolutely. Of, uh, you know, with a, with a, with a modern society, modernized society and so forth.

[00:16:14] Frederick: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It’s important. I think it’s really important. I know you teach a media convergence, trans media course, um, but it’s so important for our students.

[00:16:23] Frederick: Um, And I think the population in general in places like the United States that can be so self-centric to know that we’re not the only, you know, place that this really exciting work is happening and you know, that we’re somehow not stuck in the backwaters or the, the stone age when, you know, you go to places like Mexico or Italy or many, you know, countries outside of the United States.

[00:16:51] Paola: Yeah. With the, you know, today with the. Something like Netflix for example, it becomes much more visible, um, to everyone what it means to have global reach. Um, so national, how, how can national production really have global audiences and global distribution? Um, in ways they almost are so seamless that, um, you may not even realize.

[00:17:18] Paola: I mean, sometimes it is advertised as local, right? It’s local. Both local and local. So many of our students may be familiar with the TV series, , for example, um, which is based on a book, um, that was the best seller published in Italy and published in, in so many different languages. Um, and it became, you know, an international success.

[00:17:40] Paola: Um, so things like that happen can happen more and more today because of the way in which most of this product that can be accessed through the internet, so clearly the digital revolution. Did make a difference. And, you know, speaking of the sixties as compared to, um, to today, so in a way it was already in place earlier, but now, today because of the technology, because of the way which we can access, um, you know, Mexican, uh, TV series in much, much more easily than, um, it could have happened before.

[00:18:15] Frederick: You have the same, do you see the same, uh, a kind of pattern? With, uh, you know, NCOs and other ways, right? That Netflix and so on, it’s like Mexico is, has become framed and known. Only , you know, in terms of a specific genre. And that genre is usually the crime. Genre, the, the, the nautical genre. And, you know, I was just thinking about Gamora, you mentioned that, and you know, very often we, when people think of, you know, the, the great stuff coming out of Italy today, in the contemporary moment, they turn to things like Gamora.

[00:18:53] Frederick: But what are you seeing?

[00:18:55] Paola: Well, um, uh, I’m happy to be able to say right now that you know. Uh, you do have Gomar, but you also have the brilliant friend, right? So, um, you, and I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but it’s another hb, it’s an HBO series based on very famous Quadri Joe books by, um, Italian writer El Rane.

[00:19:15] Paola: Um, and it’s a story about female friendship in Naples. So the location is, Very much the same as Go Mara. But, um, the narratives are instead really about the friendship between these two girls and then follows the story of these two girls throughout, um, Italian history goes, you know, to adolescents and then other accord.

[00:19:34] Paola: Um, and so it, it does. Both care to a different kind of target audience. One is, was not just associating the country of Italy with mafia or which, which has a very long tradition. So I don’t think there is nothing wrong with that in the sense that it, you know, the, the, the peer or gomar, um, it, it’s definitely connected to a very long tradition and appear of Mafia movie from The Godfather and so on.

[00:20:00] Paola: Um, But I think the brilliant, friendly, for example, is a very good example of how also alternative kind of narratives can become of a global appeal. And the success of The Brilliant Friend I think is a demonstration of that. Highly recommend that if you haven’t watched it,

[00:20:16] Frederick: I, I, Yeah, let’s tell our listeners for sure.

[00:20:19] Frederick: I’ve seen it. Um, at least the first season, my brilliant friend. So, good. Um, p where do you see your work? Where do you see kind of the convergence work? The work at the, the, the cultural production at the margins of Italy in the. Proximate and near and even maybe distant

[00:20:39] Paola: future? Well, right now I am very excited.

[00:20:42] Paola: I’m working on a new project on Day Island Western. Uh, I kind of developed also, uh, very much a passion for, um, for genres and genre film and, you know, the Photo Noble consider the, uh, not only. So this association between gender and gender. So, um, photo novel being mostly about, you know, melodrama or Romans are connected to a female audience.

[00:21:08] Paola: And now I’m really looking into instead the Western genre, both as again, kind of epitome of these, uh, cultural transmission between the US and Italy, um, as well as a, uh, type of media product that. Um, definitely was not born a masculine one. Uh, but he became one, uh, because of the way in which the industry really favor, um, gender labeling and these association between, for example, the Western and boys.

[00:21:45] Paola: Or, uh, later on when. In the earlier period, and then later in the sixties with the Spaghetti Western. Clearly an adult, um, masculine in audience. Uh, so reading a lot about Buffalo Bill, The Wild War Show in Italy. It’s a lot of fun.

[00:22:02] Frederick: Beautiful, amazing, and I so look forward to this next work of yours. This next book I want.

[00:22:10] Frederick: Just thank you p for taking the time to share a little bit about your journey and, and what you’re doing and the significance and importance of the work that you’re doing in this, these very specific areas that have otherwise not been given the opportunity to shine. Thank you p, so much.

[00:22:28] Paola: Thank you for having me.

[00:22:29] Paola: It was a pleasure.

[00:22:34] Outro: Into The Colaverse is produced by the University of Texas at Austin’s College of Liberal Arts Sound Engineering by the Liberal Arts Instructional Technology Services. You can find Into the Colaverse Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher. Thanks for listening and see you next time.