Episode 22: Vulnerability: Cancer & Career

Cancer Uncovered Ep 22
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We are a resource for learners, including every member of the live strong cancer institutes on track educational pipeline from middle school to residency, we are growing collection of interviews, talks and experiences, the uncover, the myths and the uncertainties of cancer and careers in cancer in order to empower and inspire generations of thinkers and leaders.

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[00:00:34] Melissa: You took hold of your life and said, I’m going to put myself out there. I’m going to be vulnerable. And I’m going to do something that changes my life and makes it better. And I saw that in you.

[00:01:30] Ginger M Okoro: Melissa, you can go ahead and kick it off. tell us about your background, about your journey, your family, anything that you’re willing and wanting to share?

[00:01:40] Melissa: My name is Melissa Chavez. I’m the associate vice president. And superintendent of the university of Texas university charter schools. I run 24 schools across the state of Texas. Our schools are in residential treatment facilities and psych hospitals. And I absolutely love what I do.

[00:02:03] Linda: And I’m Linda Nickell professionally, I’m a paralegal at a law firm Texas, and my side hustle, hobby, passion what I throw my money and my time and my energy into is photography. I host a weekly photography webinar called the happiness hour where I bring in photographers from around the world and I invite people to come and join us.

[00:02:30] Melissa: So I wanted to kind of kick it off. do you remember. And we met. Let’s talk about that. You’d go first. Remember, you doing?

[00:02:43] Linda: Oh, well, I was sitting there with, I believe, I don’t know. I think they made us drink eight cups of like 64 ounces of water. so all I could focus on was I want that bathroom and hurry up. so we were sitting outside the waiting room to get our respective. Treatments for radiation, which was not a fun time in my life.

[00:03:12] Melissa: I do remember the day That you and I met it. Wasn’t a fun time in my life either. I remember not the water part, but I remember we’d have to get undressed and they had these little bitty closets. You got undressed and you put on this little paper- like robe and you sat in a waiting room with everyone else in a paper like robe.

And you were waiting your turn to get your radiation. I sat next to you and you started talking to me and you were so kind, and you were telling me about your life and all of your family, and then you gave me soap. Do you remember giving me soap?

[00:03:48] Linda: That was not the first meeting.

[00:03:49] Melissa: Oh, that wasn’t the first meeting. Oh, well that was the first. meeting I remember. And you gave me the soap and I thought, yeah. Oh, this lady is really creative and nice.

[00:04:01] Linda: That was something that I picked up, while I was getting my treatment and it was a hobby or something that I could pour my time and energy into at home. I’m trying to avoid being around people just because my system was so vulnerable. If someone had a cough, it was going to be something that I needed to avoid. So that was something I picked up at home. And because radiation was tough on my body chemotherapy wasn’t so much, but radiation was, and I had figured out, how to make a soap formula that would calm my skin.

I remember you telling me and showing me how burned you were. I’d never seen skin. Flaming hot pink, red. And I remember thinking, I hope she’s there tomorrow because I’m going to bring her some of my soap. And that’s kind of where we kicked off sitting next to each other in a waiting room.

[00:05:01] Melissa: Absolutely. I felt very, vulnerable during that time. Obviously, for many reasons, one, you know, You’re sick and two you’re naked and you’re right. you’re with people that you don’t know. And we sat with each other every day at 7:15 in the morning. For seven and a half weeks to get our radiation together.

And I think it was to me, one of the most authentic and vulnerable and best friendships that I’ve ever had in my life.

[00:05:41] Linda: You’re going to make me tear up and I know do that. You were actually in radiation a little bit longer than I was. Did you do 8 weeks? I think I did six.

[00:05:56] Melissa: I did seven and a half.

[00:05:59] Linda: So we were there. We were stuck together for a long time every morning, every morning. I think, it was a great, it was a sad place to develop a friendship, but it is a friendship that has lasted all these years, we’re what, seven years past all of that

[00:06:19] Melissa: reflection is a really important part of healing and moving forward because we get to be true to ourselves, our journeys and make that push forward into living our best selves. Vulnerability is putting your true self out there. Here, I am putting my shame aside and I’m going to be vulnerable right now. How did that, because cancer puts you there. How did that bring you into this space, where you went from creating your own soap to creating this fantastic, next career into photography tell us how, like your space and vulnerability and having cancer and having had to live through that and be that person take you to where you are now.

[00:07:14] Linda: When I was diagnosed with cancer, I didn’t tell very many people. I held it very, very close. And I did not even share it with my siblings. I told my parents because I needed help. But I’m a busy paralegal and I, I didn’t tell anybody and one day when my secretary cornered me and said you sure are going to the doctor a lot. What’s going on? And the next thing you know, I’ve got two other very close friends at work cornering me asking me the same question. And I had to own up to, this is what I’m doing. This is what the doctor tells me I have to do, we’re not going to talk about it. We have work to do, I was able to contain that and it really let me focus and get my work done. And then when I got home, I had outlets and my outlet happened to be photography.

I never missed work with the exception of the days that I had to have my chemotherapy treatment. Otherwise once every three weeks I missed a day and people gave me space and that is something that I value today.

I really appreciate that I got this space and this is the first time I’ve actually talked publicly about my cancer. So, you know, it’s something that does not define me. It never has. I look at post cancer the things that I’ve accomplished and the things that I want to accomplish.

a long list. So I didn’t have time for.

[00:08:49] Melissa: I don’t have time for it. as in my perspective, me, me watching you and going through the cancer journey with you and then coming out of it with you and staying out of it with you. I just saw you put yourself out there. So vulnerably, you weren’t a photographer. You taught yourself, you went to countries that I would be scared to go, but you got on planes and you did it by yourself and you went and you met people that you didn’t know, and you stayed in their homes.

And, to me, from my perspective, You took hold of your life and said, I’m going to put myself out there. I’m going to be vulnerable. And I’m going to do something that changes my life and makes it better. And I saw that in you. I was just so proud to be your friend and to hear all the, every dinner.

When I hear you come back from your journeys, I was just like, look at what Linda did. She took a cancer diagnosis, a cancer treatment. That was hell. And she turned it into this wonderful life-changing to me a second kind of career for you. I just wanted to say that the same thing I think happened to me, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it was, December the 18th, 2013.

And I was leading a district for the university of Texas, one, one school district. And my boss at the time, know, about a week after I had already told them I had cancer, he came to me and said, need you to lead this other district, like, in addition to what you already do. And I was like, you know, I got cancer, right?

I will never forget. He sat on my couch in my office and said, I know, and you can do this. Because I allowed myself to be vulnerable, vulnerable with you and vulnerable with my staff. I allowed myself to not wear wigs and be bald at work and say, Hey, I got cancer. And some days I’m going to be really grouchy and tired and sick. And some days I’m not.

[00:11:00] Linda: I think I went the other way. It’s like, I’m not the most expensive wig that I could afford. Lashes, you know, if you really looked at didn’t know me, you didn’t know that I had had cancer and you didn’t, you didn’t see the scars.

You didn’t see, any of that, the physical stuff. Now, maybe emotionally, maybe there was, it was there for sure, I was able to keep that close with people that I could. Lean on and you were one of those people and because you had, we were experiencing it at the same time, different kinds of cancer, but cancer is cancer.

And, it was, you got it. You’ve been through it. So it was easier to talk to somebody so it was real easy to kind of like lean in.

[00:11:53] Melissa: For me at work, you know, I thought I was vulnerable and I think that it made me a really strong leader because I showed my staff that it’s okay to go there, but not stay there.

And we’re going to do the work. And I too, didn’t miss a day. And I’m just so proud of, the, things you’ve accomplished. And I’m also proud of the things I’ve accomplished. I mean, the school districts that we run and how successful they are.

I think it’s really important for people to know that you can have cancer. Yep. And you can have a career and you can excel at your career or even change your career during it. And just, you know, I just think that that is a message that really needs to be told.

[00:12:44] Linda: I don’t disagree with one thing that you’ve said. And for me I never skipped a beat. And that’s just what my personality is. We’ve got to move.

We’ve got to push forward and we have, we’ve got boxes to check, but I was able to come home and forget about what I’m doing at the office. And it was either sit on the couch and, you know, kind of feel sorry for myself or. Do something else. And one of the things I started doing, at the time I wasn’t really a good photographer, but I always have an opinion. so I don’t take cancer as an excuse. I take it as, turn it into something, help push people. Cause it’s wasting my time. It wasted nine months of my life. So when I mentor with photographers, I don’t want to hear the excuses. I know if I can do this, you can too, because we’ve got the tools and now it’s, you know, somebody else helping you. So I dig back to the support that I had with friends like you and another woman I met randomly at an airport and we just happened to look and she goes, I see your scar. The port scar The port scar is that, you know, that little badge of honor that, you know,

[00:14:02] Melissa: that only we know

[00:14:04] Linda: that only when we know it’s the reminder. And every once in a while I realized, oh that was something I had to do and I moved on from it. And, um, every once in a while that port scar catches my eye and it just takes you right back. We’ve both checked off a lot of boxes since then.

[00:14:28] Melissa: Absolutely. If you had to go back in time, what would you do different?

[00:14:35] Linda: I think that I probably would have shared a little bit more with the people I worked with. I do regret just a little bit because I think it would have helped some of them a little bit more because it’s, you know, when you work with somebody day in and day out, you know, when something’s off they don’t tell you, it makes them worry. But when you tell them it makes them worry. I do wonder if I should have been a little bit more open, but at the time there was no way in heck I was going to do that because I was the only one that had to deal with it.

[00:15:10] Melissa: If I could go back, I think one of the things that reflecting on it, which is always good to do is that I would have gotten more support from my family, my child and my husband, because of. I wasn’t the only one that, you know, went through it all and looking back, I think it was really hard on them, know, wish I would have more for them to get therapeutic support or family support. Just pushed it more.

[00:15:37] Linda: Just sitting next to you and knowing how strong of a person you are, you’ve always been an overachiever. And this was something that you were going to fix, you are going to take care of you didn’t want them worrying about you,

[00:15:53] Melissa: Yeah, but it still affected them

[00:15:55] Linda: but still did.

We think we’re protecting people and that’s not always the case.

You’re one of my friends that you’re high functioning. You’re in a leadership role. What’s, what’s your best advice for somebody that. It feels like they’ve got everything on the shoulders?

[00:16:13] Melissa: That’s a really great question. allowing or giving yourself permission to have the feeling. You have was, is one of the main things. So it was okay. I need to I would tell myself it’s okay for me to be afraid. Being afraid is a feeling that is natural and okay. have the feeling and then figure out what you’re going to go next with it. know, being really afraid. Treatment number one was really hard for me. I was afraid to get those chemo treatments.

And so I had feelings and emotions that I acted out in ways that maybe weren’t very productive. I would have those feelings, acknowledge them, have those behaviors apologize. Allow yourself to have the feelings be really upfront with the people that you’re having those feelings around. be vulnerable, have those feelings and acknowledge them, reflect about them. Do self care, self awareness.

All of those things, is my advice.

[00:17:26] Linda: That’s great advice.

[00:17:29] Ginger M Okoro: Melissa and Linda since we’re guiding the conversation for learners what advice do you have or words of wisdom would you have for students?

[00:17:39] Melissa: Linda talk about your relationship with your oncologist and how strong that was about her professionalism and The way that she built a relationship with you and the trust that you had in her. That was so powerful because that’s not always the case with our care providers.

She

[00:17:59] Linda: was so honest and upfront and offered no promises whatsoever, but she did say I will do the best that I can do for you.

she is absolutely my hero and she talked to me and we had conversations that weren’t about cancer, and I still have to go see her twice a year. it’s over in three minutes and we spend the rest of the time talking about trips or my photography or home improvement and she talks to me, like a friend, a very stern friend, you are going to go to radiation and I just believed in her and I trusted her. if you are able to convey that to a patient You’re halfway there they’ve got to trust you and they have to trust that you’re going to do everything that you can possibly for them. And sometimes they won’t, they’re not going to win, you know, the cancer is going to win a lot of times, but I think you, as a doctor or care provider, Are going to sleep well, knowing that you did everything you could your patient believed in you. if you’re a provider and you can just reach out to them as humans and show that you care, science is going to be there, but the human connection people need that will make it so much easier for them as a patient.

[00:19:30] Melissa: When I think about my care team in that whole journey for a year of treatment and all the nurses and the techs the doctors and the surgeons, and it was the ones that. Stopped And and said, oh, this is a human person that I’m going to do something to who’s scared. took the time to really learn about me and ask about me and become friends with me.

[00:19:56] Linda: There should’ve been a box of tissues. No one told me that was part of this thing. She was like, it’ll be fun. What are we doing? What are we doing? I don’t know.

Yeah. And there’s a lot of value in that.

[00:20:14] Melissa: a lot of value in that. A lot of value in a really great friend.

[00:20:24] Ginger M Okoro: I think that was great place end. Yeah. I love it though. No, I really appreciate that. Really appreciate both of you. Your willingness to be on the podcast and part of our series.