Episode 34: The Sociology of Cancer: Cancerland, Pt. 2

[00:00:00] Intro: We are a resource for learners, including every member of the Livestrong Cancer Institute’s on track educational pipeline from middle school to residency. We are a growing collection of interviews, talks, and experiences that uncover the myths and the uncertainties of cancer and careers in cancer in order to empower and inspire generations of thinkers and leaders.

This is Cancer Uncovered, an education and empowerment podcast by the Livestrong Cancer Institutes.

[00:00:44] Eugenio Sobrevilla: Welcome back to Cancer Uncovered. My name is Eugenio Sobrevilla, and today we’re continuing with part two of Dr. Osbakken’s episode that dives into how cancer plays a role in our society. We will learn more about how to explore careers in cancer, Gen Z’s power when it comes to combating cancer stigma, intergenerational understandings of cancer, and how societal structures and inequalities lead towards higher rates of cancer. Thank you.

So, with cancer being very multifaceted, sometimes conversations and the way in which we approach this may be a bit confusing for people, especially for students. Do you have any tips or any recommendations that Students could approach cancer a way in which they can talk about it. Is there something that we should be more considerate of when we talk about cancer, specifically for younger, for younger people?

[00:01:33] Stephanie Osbakken: Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s a really great question. I, well, first of all, I think that this internet age has brought us many, many gifts. And one of those gifts is, you know, what, Just a wide range of resources online. And so people who are facing a diagnosis, as I was back in 2016, you know, you can go online and find out a lot of things, not only specifically about your disease and the type of cancer you have, and sort of deep in deep into those.

Journals really explaining what you’ve got going, but I think even perhaps more importantly for your average person, you can find online communities who are helpful and are supporting. You can find people who understand what you’re going through. There are myriad podcasts like this one that really helps shine a light on on.

hopeful dimensions of, of, of ways to approach a diagnosis. You know, we, we all have, you know, some degree of agency when we are experiencing any, when we’re making any decision in life, but we’re experiencing a challenge like cancer as well. And, and I think that there are ways that we can empower ourselves, uh, as you know, young people or as old people and anywhere in between to.

Help, help, you know, navigate our own circumstances if we’re the person that has a diagnosis, but also to support our family members, our friends, members of our community who might be struggling. And I think that with the attention on mental health that we have, you know, I think. Very lucky to, um, the last decade or so to start really admitting and owning, acknowledging the mental health challenges are hugely significant, not only just for, for society generally, but, but when people are faced with a specific diagnosis, a life threatening illness, a terminal illness, the mental health challenges and the burden that those individuals and their families, space are significant.

And so having the tools and having even just the language, um, to, to be able to talk about these things and then having the resources to be able to find these things are, um, are really helpful. I think. And I think that, You know, for people who are really interested in maybe careers where they’re wanting to be in health care, if I were to talk to a high school student right now, and in fact I do, because I, you know, or I at least talk to teenagers, because a lot of my freshmen that come in every fall are 18 years old, so they’re, they’re fresh out of high school, many of them, and I think that what I say to them is, you know, really, really know what, what you want to contribute, and don’t let.

Other people’s opinions and don’t let the fear about. The unknown, right? All people who are 18 have lived a good bit of life, but they’re all young, right? They’re relatively inexperienced. Don’t let the unknown of anything, whether it’s a career path or whether it’s in disease, be the thing that keeps you out.

If you’re drawn to something and really believe that you could be part of the solution, right? Part of someone who is, um, maybe a researcher or maybe, maybe a clinician, maybe someone who is Um, you know, a social worker working with a population that is going through some sort of traumatic event, whether it’s a disease or, or, you know, or other, other traumatic events.

You know, I would say just step towards that because you will gain that experience if you are open hearted and you’re open minded and you’re curious about asking questions and listening to the answers. That we all have to start from somewhere. No one starts experienced. And I think sometimes a beginner’s mind is more valuable than someone who thinks they already have the answers figured out.

So I would say, I, I’m most encouraged when I talk to people who are just, just willing to learn, just willing to, to learn new things. I think that they’ve got the potential to help solve some of our intractable, intractable problems.

[00:05:23] Eugenio Sobrevilla: I think that’s a, that’s specifically a really good point. I, I have friends that are still, you know, they, that they’re freshmen, they’re sophomores now, and they don’t know what they want to do in their life.

I just tell them, just put yourself out there, explore as many opportunities as you can. And just. Try new things. And as you were saying, it really takes a fresh mindset that you can discover what you want, what you like. And sometimes people might be scared about that, but if People go out and experience these things.

They find out so many different

[00:05:54] Stephanie Osbakken: possibilities. I could agree more music to my ears. I think that so many times people, because they’re trying to conform to maybe other people’s version of success or what they think are the right jobs, the right paths that they actually shut down options that. Might have been their calling, right?

Might have been their vocation and, and I really encourage people to, to remain undecided as long as possible. Explore the things that are, that are calling to you and, you know, you know, develop, develop curiosity about all sorts of things. You don’t have to have it figured out when you’re, you’re 18. I, in fact, I prefer when I meet students who don’t have it all figured out because I know that they’re going to take in some new ideas and, and, and that’s, that’s how we grow.

That’s how we develop. And that’s how we find where we really want to be. And

[00:06:39] Eugenio Sobrevilla: specifically with Gen Z, Gen Z As you were saying, mental health definitely plays a huge role in how we, how we just interact and talk with each other. I think you were talking about how it might be difficult for older generations to discuss cancer.

Um, friends of mine, I, you know, we always ask how they’re doing, we do check ins, we talk about our emotions and our feelings and With us being so young, I, I really enjoy that you mentioned that fact that mental health definitely does take a huge role. And with that, we can give cancer a different view, we can approach it way more differently that maybe older generations might have not been open to.

I love that. So specifically with you mentioning that, I think it very much relates to our intentions with, with the show, with everything that we work for, for

[00:07:25] Stephanie Osbakken: this. I, I totally agree. And I think that with cancer, you know, There’s a lot written about cancer and I assign a lot of that writing to my students, but what I will say is that there’s this idea out there that, you know, among some people, and some people vehemently disagree, that cancer is a gift.

And I would say that I never found mine to be a gift, but I will say, and this is what I say to my students, that it is a perspective enhancing experience. I will never be the same person that I was pre cancer. And so the fact that it has changed how I view the world. Is, is in that way, in that one way, a gift, I feel like I am less likely to be fearful of, of smaller stakes things.

Right. And I think that so often we, we don’t know how strong we are until we have the opportunity to be challenged. And so, while I would never wish cancer on anyone, and I don’t, I don’t adopt that gift, um, that gift language, I do think that we all have the capacity to do hard things. And I think that young people, as you said, Gen Z, I think has a greater capacity to do hard things than, from my personal experience, you know, people in my generation, Gen X, or, or my parents generation, boomers.

And, and so I would, I would say that, Use those, use those skills, um, and, and that gift of discovery and, and just be, you know, take risks, really, really explore what’s, what’s interesting to you. Yes.

[00:08:55] Eugenio Sobrevilla: Thank you. Moving on to our last couple of sets of questions throughout you being a sociologist and a professor, if you could pinpoint a specific.

issue, which you see is most timely when it comes to cancer. Should we be targeting a specific topic we should be aware of? Is there anything? We want to have be a main takeaway for students.

[00:09:22] Stephanie Osbakken: Yeah, that’s that’s a great question. Now here you’re going to hear my voice as a sociologist, right? I mean, I think while I am awed by the amazing discoveries that we have and bench science and our understandings of, you know, ways that we can intervene, you know, how we can take cancer to its knees through this.

therapy or through this, you know, immunotherapy now and, and all these really novel, novel, novel treatments. So please continue those, all you scientists over there. But as a sociologist, what I would say is that we oftentimes don’t really factor in the structural pieces of our society that contribute to perhaps the risk, the risk of cancer.

Like I mentioned, there’s sort of Um, the risk of exposure to carcinogens in our environment and also to the ways that people are systematically excluded from everything from clinical trials to, you know, first line treatment. Um, you know, MD Anderson, which is, we all love MD Anderson. It’s one of the greatest research, um, you know, cancer research centers in the world.

Um, and I certainly went there for second opinions when I was diagnosed originally. And then when I had my recurrence, they don’t accept, at least in the state of Texas, they don’t, they don’t accept. People who are on Medicaid. And so when we think about different groups of people who don’t have the benefits of these great discoveries, these, these mind blowing innovations, that’s, that’s where my, my energy always goes to that, that, you know, that I, I believe that creating an equitable.

healthcare system is, is essential, because if not, then some people will always, always be overexposed to risk factors that, that create cancer diagnoses, and they will also be much more likely to have, um, you know, higher rates of mortality, uh, for, for whatever kind of cancer. And we, we see that is the case today.

And, and so I, I really imagine a future where we are all getting equitable, highest standard of care cancer treatments, and that our ability to pay. And, you know, the networks that we’re in, whether they’re insurance networks or social networks or a geographic location, that those things don’t greatly impact our ability to, to, to live, you know, and prosper and to go on to, you know, be with our families and our friends and, and to do, do our, and do what we all want to do, right?

So I think that for me as a sociologist, I think of those structural pieces that really loom large. And I think that if we don’t think about those, And a lot of people don’t think about those, um, or at least don’t stay up nights thinking about those. It’s because they haven’t necessarily been affected by those, right?

That they’re, that they’re privileged enough to not have to be preoccupied by those structural factors. So, that’s what I would say. And so, for folks who are interested in advocating for, for more equitable healthcare, for single payer healthcare, or for just better, better mechanisms to provide relief for people who are uninsured or underinsured.

I would say, you know, vote, be in touch with your, your elected, you know, officials, right? Make sure that your, your Congress, um, representative, a member of Congress, you know, state Congress and you know, federal, uh, federal government, that everyone knows, knows your thoughts, that you’re, that you’re, that you’re counted, that your voice is, is out there.

And I think that if we think that healthcare is happening outside of. Policy, we’re not fully paying attention to to, you know, to the situation on the ground.

[00:13:01] Eugenio Sobrevilla: And thankfully, um, it’s becoming more of an issue. It’s definitely being brought to light. I know within my age range, health equity and access for sure.

Some of the main things that people, you know, even though we’re not afflicted severely by health, it’s something that we think about. We see our family members struggle with that, and we, we want to fight for that, for that, right? So, thank you for mentioning that.

[00:13:25] Stephanie Osbakken: Yeah. It doesn’t seem like it’s very obviously connected to think about politics and health, but I think that there’s really no, no way we can think about health without accounting for politics.

Yeah, for sure. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s, and it’s also a way that people can get involved in health even if they know for sure, oh, I don’t want to be a doctor. I don’t want to be a nurse. I don’t want to be, you know, in the health professions. They can still be very much essential and, and, and creating great innovative solutions.

through the policy dimensions of, of these problems. So, there’s, there’s lots of ways to get involved for folks who are thinking about a career that relates to health, that relates to the well being of themselves and their families and their communities. You don’t have to go into the health professions for that.

We need, we need you enlisted in so many other ways as researchers, but also as, as, as, you know, public advocates and elected officials. Go into politics yourselves, right? Be the champion for these issues.

[00:14:22] Eugenio Sobrevilla: Okay, thank you so much. We’re getting towards the end of our discussion. Going off of what you just said, I’ll go ahead and ask our final question.

Since cancer can look a bit scary, a bit complicated, it might be difficult to talk about, and sometimes people may feel a bit hopeless when it comes to that. How can students themselves make an impact on cancer? What, what can they do to, you know, make a change?

[00:14:48] Stephanie Osbakken: Yeah, yeah. I think there’s several things that anyone can do.

I think that if you know someone with cancer, if your students or the people who are listening know, have a relative, maybe a friend, a neighbor, someone, someone from maybe a friend’s parents, someone that they know, I would just say to show up first and foremost. You would be surprised. because cancer is so scary.

A lot of people Really, and they don’t mean to do this, but they, they will, they will kind of turn their backs on people who in their orbit who have cancer. And it’s not that they’re doing this out of a heartless, heartless, you know, motive. I think it’s just very tough. So I think just showing up to letting people know that, you know, you know that this is hard.

You know that this has. That it’s scary, that it has an impact on, on their, on their lives and their families. And that, you know, that you want to be there, uh, is, is a great thing to do. You can also, I think the best thing to do is to offer very tangible support. If it’s watching someone’s kids, you know, people who are in high school, great babysitters.

Those are my babysitters, right? They’re all high school kids. So, you know, you could, you could, you know, offer to, to hang out with kids if someone needs to go and, and run an errand or have a doctor’s appointment. appointment or there are ways that you can be involved and be of service and then the smallest things make the biggest differences.

I, I, the cards that people gave me, there’s the tiny little notes of hope that people passed along to me. I still have that to this day. So you can, you can do more than you can imagine with the smallest gestures. And so I would, I would encourage them to do that if they know someone who’s going through it.

And then I think that the next level up would be. How do you imagine making a difference? Because, you know, there’s, there’s so many, again, small acts, even if you don’t know someone personally, you could. Join forces with, you know, organizations that help, you know, bring meals to people who maybe are, are, you know, isolated, socially isolated and, and can’t, don’t have transportation difficulties when they’re, when they’re having, um, you know, treatment or they’re not feeling up to, you know, go into the grocery store.

There are ways that you can volunteer with different, you know, nonprofits, other organizations that are community based. That are looking for, you know, even just behind the scenes, you know, you can, you can be doing office work in those places, but you can also be doing tangible support for people in the communities.

I know that, you know, people who have pets who have cancer, they might need someone to come and walk their dog. They might need, you know, there’s so many things. And so if you’re looking to get involved, there are plenty of ways to get involved. If you are someone who. thinks big picture, who likes the bird’s eye view, then really do go, go the policy route.

You know, go, I mean, you all are gifted with social media and with online communication. You could be, um, you know, using your energies to help amplify messages and, and, and initiatives and, and events that are being held to help, you know, sponsor cancer research or to help spread awareness. Those are the kinds of things that you all have.

You know, you have talents in spades when it comes to, to doing things with your technological skills. So, I would say that however you feel like you can actually do something, there are so many different ways you can do something. And do something that’s within your comfort zone. No one should be feeling like they need to, you know, they have to go into service of, of doing something in cancer.

But if it’s something that you are, Feeling called to do, um, I’d say, I’d say go that route. That’s the, that’s where you’re going to make the best, um, impact for, for other people as well. And it’s going to feel good to you, but it’s also going to be where, where your, your best work is going to be done, frankly.

[00:18:30] Kristen Wynn: So I wrote down questions as I was thinking of them. So they may be a little out of order. Sure. Has creating this course based on something super personal, it makes sense to me. As an outsider that that doesn’t know you just what you’ve told us here today that you sort of this this is your craft right to create courses to do the research to talk to students to teach right and so I think it’s beautiful that you took something in your life that was hard and scary and unknown and you built this course around it and you built this experience for students to come in and learn more and discuss more. Um, so I guess that’s more of a statement just saying like, I think that’s beautiful that you took something hard and scary and made it, put it into your work.

How has that affected your perspective? Having now done. Yeah. Tons of research and tons of reading and put it sort of looking at structures and looking at disparities. Has this been healing for you?

[00:19:34] Stephanie Osbakken: I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think that what and I, I say so much to my students as well that, um.

A lot of my friends, you know, I know a lot of people, when you have a cancer diagnosis, you meet a lot of people in cancer, in cancer circles, right? I have lots of friends who have had cancer. It becomes this, you know, we call it the cancer card. You know, everyone, you kind of hit the cancer club to, or to, I actually know someone

[00:19:57] Kristen Wynn: that printed physical

[00:19:58] Stephanie Osbakken: cancer, cancer.

And so you kind of join a club, a club that no one wants to join. to be a member of, but when, when you join that club, people come out of the woodwork, people you didn’t even know who have cancer or had cancer who just, you know, like offering, offering support, offering like, I know what you’re going through.

You know, you’ve got this. Let me, let me always be that shoulder to cry on because a lot of other people are scared of it. Right. And it is a frightening thing. And so even people who are your your best friends or your closest confidants might not be able to handle this particular challenge. And so I think that, I know a lot of folks with cancer, many of them had their cancer, had their cancer treatment, are in remission or have no evidence of disease or effectively, you know, quote unquote cured.

I always, I always knock with the cured, you know, cancer has a, has a nasty habit of hiding out and coming back later. But, um, but they have put that chapter to bed, so to speak, in their, in their life. And I find that, um, many of them struggle with it. Like I, I have a, I have tons of guest speakers who come into my class and they are, you know, from all walks of life.

Some of them are providers, some of them are therapists, some of them are physical therapists, some of them are, they’re, they’re from their cancer community of, of health professionals. But I have lots of people who come in who have their own cancer experiences. And so, survivors, some of them. don’t identify as survivors, but they’ve had a history with cancer or actively managing, um, you know, advanced cancer.

And, and many of them will say to me. They will ask exactly that question. They will say, is this healing for you to be able to talk about it all the time? Because now that I’ve put it on the shelf, it’s very triggering for me, right? It just brings up the, you know, my past and you know, I can feel my heart start to race.

I can feel on my anxiety levels start to start to get higher. Is teaching this class actually cathartic for you? I was like, absolutely. It’s, it’s, it’s a way where I can keep it. It’s you know, I, I, it’s almost like I, I give it a symbolic seat at the table so that it doesn’t take over. My mental energy and I, I think creating a space for it and I think that other people can do that too.

They don’t necessarily have to create a class, but you know, they can journal about it or they can find a support group that they go to periodically and they can dump all the things that they have been thinking about in that, that, that group that can hold it. I think I have that space for that. Um, so it has been, for me, it’s been very healing and I think it’s, um, I know I’m in a unique perspective to be able to do that, but I think it’s also.

Let me know. It’s, it’s let me not only heal myself, but it’s let me really connect with so many people that have that same need to connect across that very hard thing. And oftentimes, you know, you have to get to know someone and you’ve got to peel back the layers of the onion. And, you know, you show me you’re a little bit of old ability and I’ll show you a little bit of mine.

And that can evolve over time. But it usually takes many years for us to have really deep trusted. Human connections. And, um, the older I get, the more I appreciate those, those, because it’s harder and harder, you know, when you, when you get older to meet people that are, that are willing to be vulnerable and to, to meet you where you are.

And I think cancer is, it’s a great equalizer in that way. And I think that people who, you know, some of my dearest friends are people who’ve had their own experiences with cancer because we’re on, we’re on a similar wavelength. And, and so I think that it can be healing to talk about it. I think that it can bring you closer to the people who.

Are at the next level and, and I, I see, I seek out podcasts as well for, you know, I’m sure you’ve heard of Kate Bowler’s podcast is a stage for, um, you know, cancer, you know, patient, but she is, you know, divinity professor at Duke. She’s wise, I mean, she’s just exceptional and, and hearing her voice, like, if I’m ever feeling like I want to actually be in a.

In, in a cancer conversation because it’s soothing for me, it’s strangely soothing and a lot of people who finish their cancer treatment will, will say like, what do I do now? You know, it’s, it’s comforting on some level to be in the middle of. Fighting it because it’s like it’s not gonna sneak up behind you if you’re if you’re going into battle every day And so like when you when you go into that infusion room or you go into the space where you’re getting treatment you You know, it’s it’s it doesn’t sneak up on you But once you put it aside it can and I think that for me keeping it centered and having it right next to me has been, has allowed me to really, I would never say befriend it.

I don’t think of cancer as a gift or a friend, but I do think that it’s allowed me to grow past it by ironically maybe keeping it close. Does that make sense?

[00:24:39] Kristen Wynn: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. In the beginning you talked about the beginning is really hard, your first diagnosis is really difficult, and then you found your calm. Yeah. What was your calm for you? When did you get there?

[00:24:49] Stephanie Osbakken: Yeah, you know, I think, I think that like, a lot of People and I would not dare say all, but a lot of people, uncertainty is, is confusing and disorienting, right? Whenever we have a period of change, we have, we’re transitioning, we feel a little anxious.

And even if it’s excited, it’s, it’s still, it’s still kind of an agitated state, if you will, right? Starting college, right? First time away from home, you’re feeling anxious, you’re feeling agitated. You want to go, you know, it’s going to bring great things, but it’s also frightening and scary. And it has that kind of thing.

And I think that cancer has that same agitation with none of the fun, you know, when you’re first diagnosed, you don’t imagine all these great friends that you might meet, you’re just like, Oh, I don’t want to, I don’t want to have cancer and, and what’s this going to mean for me? What’s this going to mean for my family?

Am I going to lose my hair? Oh, I’m going to have to maybe have my breasts removed. I mean, all of the things are starting to come and flood your consciousness, right? And things that you never hoped you’d ever have to think about. But once you. Get a plan. To me, the first few weeks when you’re meeting all the doctors and trying to just get your head around it, getting a plan, getting providers that you trust, who listen to you, which is the most important thing that, you know, you feel are going to give you the highest quality care and who are going to be an active relationship with you as you’re going through your treatment.

Then for, for me, and I’ve heard this from other people, again, I wouldn’t say that it’s a universal experience, but I think it’s a common enough trip that I’ve heard, which is that you find, you find a new normal, right? So you find a space where you’re like, okay, it’s not my, my plan A. This is not what I want to have happened to me.

But. It is what it is. And you start to develop a little bit of acceptance. Yeah. For me, once I got my plan, so I had a little bit of certainty, at least my next steps, not that I was certain of the outcomes, but at least I knew where to put my foot next. That was allowing me to have a little bit of space where I could breathe, like literally catch my breath.

And in, in keeping that breath, I, I was able to find acceptance and I did a variety of things. I mean, I think that everyone who has ever tried meditation, um, you know, it works for some people, not for others. Other people love exercise. It works for some, not others in terms of helping to find that space.

For me, I had some really great friends. I had a really fantastic girlfriend. Who I met in prenatal yoga class, we’re both pregnant with our, our first born kids and, and she had been diagnosed just six weeks before me. And so she was my lifeline, literally, because she was right there ahead of me. And I knew that I wasn’t going through it alone.

So for me, it was, it was getting over that uncertainty and then knowing that you’re not alone. I think we all just want to belong. I think we all want to be connected. And that’s. You know, independent of disease, right? Our whole lives, we just want to find a place where we fit in and we, and we can go through so many difficult things if we don’t do it alone.

And so she was, um, essential for me. Shout out to Aaron Gibbs. So she was, she was, she was that person for me. And then you start collecting a cast of characters. I have a dear friend that I met in the infusion room and you start find other people and. And then you can, and then you can, I think you can get through anything.

My husband was amazing and just incredibly supportive and we had an amazing, um, babysitter who really stepped up and almost became a nanny for, I mean, part time nanny. She really helped with my young children and she’s like a member of the family now. So. Thank you. I think that it was, it was finding the people who were going to be my cast of characters to really see me through this.

And then I was able to get, you know, get up back on my feet and, and, you know, take the steps.

[00:28:43] Kristen Wynn: So awesome. Cool. Thank you for sharing that. Um, What is the ultimate goal of your course, Cancerland? What do you hope students walk away with?

[00:28:45] Stephanie Osbakken: Oh, that’s great. You know, so I, I’m a very big picture person and anyone who’s ever taken a class with me will tell, will tell you that, that I have multiple goals whenever I set my learning objectives for any classes.

But the biggest goal I think is beyond. Beyond the content, beyond the specific semester, um, I really, you know, what I see myself here at UT as an educator, you know, my biggest job is to equip my students to be lifelong learners, to be curious. To walk towards the hard things, right? And so, I want them to do that because I know that they are, that’s where they’re going to find the magic of how their life is supposed to unfold, right?

And I want them to be, you know, Not fearful, not running, not running from something. And so I try to show up and model fearlessness, um, or not necessarily fearlessness, feel the fear and do it anyway, right. And to take risks and to be vulnerable. And so I really want them to cultivate a sense of. Risk taking within community and to seek out developing those relationships in life that will always allow them to be.

They’re most vulnerable self and so therefore their most strong self. I really think that vulnerability and strength are two sides of the coin. It’s the same coin. It’s the same coin. You got it in your pocket. It’s got both. And so I really want them to be that lifelong learner. To take those risks. To develop a capacity to do hard things.

And to know that they’re going to be stronger for it. And I think that that’s probably the lesson that I learned most in cancer. So I think that that’s the lesson that I can. You know, model for them. I’m not, you know, I don’t try to like beat them over the head with it, but I think that that’s kind of what comes out in the course of the semester.

Um, I think that’s my big picture answer. That’s my pie in the sky. And then I think that on a more, you know, pragmatic level, I really think that my students are drawn to the health sciences for a variety of reasons. Some of them want to be physicians. They want to be nurses. They want to be, um, you know, PAs.

They want to, they want to go into, you know, some kind of healthcare environment. Where they want to be social workers. I routinely get students who are wanting to be psychologists and social workers and, and work within, um, patient populations and, and some other way. And I really want them to feel empowered, I think.

To, to, to be themselves in those roles. And to not necessarily think that they’re needing to conform to a specific model of what a person is. I think that’s what a health professional is supposed to look like, because I think that while we want all of our physicians, we want all of our social workers, what we want all of our professionals to be well trained and to sort of meet the standards and the certification and all the licensing, you know, requirements, certainly, absolutely, never, never, you know, never want to forget that.

But I think that when we’re looking for a relationship with someone who’s going to be a provider to us, and we’re looking for that, that’s something that’s really, It’s, it’s uniquely personal and it’s intangible and it’s kind of, it’s, it’s this thing that is, it is what people bring their own spark that they bring to whatever it is they do.

And so I want my students are going into the health professions to sort of bring their full self into those spaces. And I want them to learn it’s okay, it’s okay to be vulnerable, it’s especially okay, I think, for people who are going to go into medicine, to be vulnerable with their patients, that you don’t have to be the one who’s the authority, who knows everything, and keeping, keeping your cards close to your chest.

But even for people who want to go into other lines of work, I just, I still think there’s a valuable lesson about that. And so to, to bring your whole self and, and, and sort of. And know that you show up, you’re going to get, you’re going to get back what you put out there, right? And so to be, you know, to be the kind of provider that you’d want to be.

Uh, so that the patients can, can see, see that you’re in it for them and then can meet you halfway. So I think that that’s part of it too. Yeah. Awesome. Love it. Yeah. So great.

[00:32:53] Eugenio Sobrevilla: Thank you Dr. Osbakken for your time and letting us have this insightful conversation to better understand cancer’s role in our society. If you have any questions about today’s episode or ideas for a future episode, please give us an email at liftstrongcancerinstitutes at delmed. utexas. edu. If you have any more questions about the Livestrong Cancer Institute, please visit delmed. utexas. edu. This is Eugenio Sobrevilla reporting for Cancer Uncovered.

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