Episode 4 – The Power of Artivism: An Interview with Julio Salgado

[0:00:02 Speaker 0] This is audio Q. T. The podcast of Q. T. Voices, the online magazine of the L. G. B. T. Q. Studies program at the University of texas at Austin. Yeah, thank you for listening to audio cutie. This is episode four for the last decade or more. The migrant rights movement in the United States has been catalyzed by the artistic work of queer and trans and documented artists, activists or artists. Perhaps most visible among them is California based multimedia artist Julio Salgado. Hello. Salgado is the founder of Dreamers Adrift and the migrants storytelling manager for the Center for Cultural Power. His status as an undocumented queer artist has fueled the contents of his visual art, which depict key individuals and moments of the Dream Act and the migrant rights movement. More broadly undocumented students, organizers and allies across the country have used Salgado’s artwork to call attention to the migrant rights movement. Some might say his work makes up the visual rhetoric of the movement itself. So God is the co creator of the disruptors Fellowship, an inaugural fellowship for emerging television writers of color, who identified as trans and or non binary, disabled, undocumented and or formerly undocumented immigrants. His work has been displayed at places like the Oakland Museum Sf moma and the Smithsonian. I’ve had the pleasure of getting to know Julio over the past several years. First in analyzing his iconic I am undocumented posters in my first book where migration politics and more recently in commissioning him to do the art for the cover of my recent coded book with ethanol of aid queer and trans migrations, dynamics of the legalization, detention and deportation. It’s one of those books where I say please judge it by its cover. So Julio, welcome to audio cutie! Thank you, Karma, thank you so much for having me and I actually need to edit that part of my bio, The Natural Art. This year marks the second year that we have the disruptors, the fact that we are able to do a second year of this fellowship, which is for individuals who want to ride for tv. It’s a big deal, but Karma, it’s always great to see you. The last time I saw you was, you know, last january, I know when we could still be in real life, well, yes, we could, you know, travel to gathering to be together, you know, things are changing slowly, so I’m excited about what that looks like for for, you know, things like this, but, you know, in the past year that we’ve been doing, like, some stuff I actually like the fact that I could do stuff from, you know, it’s a very privileged to be able to do stuff from home, but like, you know, I definitely do miss just going out. And especially, you know, when you invited me in the past to talk to students. Like that’s something that you can’t, there’s something, there’s something about when you’re talking to students and like, feeling the energy, you know, if you’re saying something, whether it’s funny or serious, like, the reaction, you kind of, you know, get the energy from that and you can’t really do that until you really can’t. I mean, it’s like doing lectures that our webinars where you’re basically just talking to your own face. Um it’s hard to get the energy of Yeah, I mean, like, I encourage, whenever I’m doing soon stuff and I’m sorry if I’m like, kind of derailing from what happened. But what I encourage folks to do is it’s too, you know, of course use the zoom shad part where they can shad. But I asked the organizers something like, please record the, you know, like get the, get, you know, if you can try to get me the student that said that, um, you know, and engage the more, you know, can you like, you know, tell me more about that question. It’s kind of hard. I also asked people and I know people can be shy about it, but like can you keep your, your thing on so I can, you know, see reactions because yeah, I’ve got a lot of the times he pushes turn out their, their, their video and I understand, you know, sue fatigue. But you know, it really helps because you feel like you’re just talking to yourself and are they really paying attention? I gotta give it to you all, you know, people who work in schools and work with students and also a new way of doing this. Yeah, It’s been totally different and I think some of it’s been really interesting and innovative but then some of it has been horrible. But what about for you? I mean how has the pandemic time being in isolation self, how has that changed your artistic practice or what has it done to your art? The first couple of weeks I was like yes I am going to draw every day and I am going to use all the technologies because you know a lot of my art I do you know I use instagram and um you know facebook to you know share my my work and so I felt that for for me it was it was like it just makes you know it was gonna be easy. But after you know like three weeks of trying to do I. G lives and like do stuff on like I wasn’t meant for that and I definitely um the collaborations I mentioned, you know being able to present uh you know in front of students collaborate with other artists, you don’t you don’t have that and we’re a party crew but it’s we’re very like you know intentional party crew, cumbia tone, that was like you know what I love about cumbia tone was a you know, we got to party but like one of my favorite things to do is like I would be drawing in person, you know like that’s one of my favorite things to do when I’m out and partying. Some some people will find it a little bit like you know why do you want to draw when you’re you know but that is a good way to get free drinks by the way, but if you’re but if you’re you know like one of the things that I like doing, you know what it was like drawing, you know, live drawing, you know, have people that come to our band’s walk away with a piece with just a piece, right? And so we tried doing that over, you know soon, but it wasn’t the same and, and I don’t know, like for me, uh you know, whenever I get to draw and and be in space with people, it’s it’s like this is me, like, you know, thank you for coming, right? And and we couldn’t like you literally like just the way that the nightlife completely, you know, so many gay bars close, so many spaces where a lot of us come together really suffering. So, um the fact that people, you know, came around, you know, especially with Rambutan, um and they were joining every week when we’re doing live events, it was great, but it just wasn’t the same. And so uh that’s the one part that I miss upside the dancing, the live drawing also. Yeah, like collaborations with other artists being able to go to a museum or go to a gallery like I okay, so you know like brag moment, but also it was like a sweet, you know what is it, a sweet and sour moment, I don’t know how you would like to call it, but I was I was part of this group show at the Smithsonian um and it opened in the middle of a pandemic and so it was like it was this great moment, but not a lot of people got to see it, it’s just reopened uh last friday. And so it’s going to be open through august and we actually had an opportunity to carefully safely travel with my best friend and you know, jesus, seniors who co started who co founded dreamers should drift with me, we had a chance to go and, and you know, do a little short documentary and you know about this, it was like, we have to go, well, let’s let’s do it. And you know, we have the permission of the Smithsonian, we actually had the space for ourselves where with the print of the revolution is that and it was great, but it felt weird like there’s all this art and like just me and jesus and you know, the curator is shout out to Claudia Zapata government Ramos who curated the show um, at the Smithsonian. And, and it was just like, it was weird like I’m like, this is supposed to be for people to come and see it. Uh, you know, are, you know, like I for me, the art that I make us to be accessible for folks, you know, that’s why I like to give it away. You know? And, and so it definitely, it was, it was a weird moment for a lot of people. But also another thing I will give it, like a lot of artists did thrive. You know, like, uh there’s some artists who really, you know, put a lot of work out there. Um but there’s other folks who really felt like all of a sudden like they have to produce, they have to produce, they have to produce. And so not everybody is, you know, every artist is different. For me. It was at first it was like, I can do this every day. And then there was a funk. And then when I got the opportunity to go to the sea and see the show, I came back very energized and you know, making more stuff. I try to make at least once, twice a week, a couple of drawings that at a time on my instagram. My work is a scholar. There’s a lot of analogies to be made there where I too, I was like, I actually love being at home. I hate going to work. This is great. I got a book done early on, but there was a lot of wasted time. But of course it wasn’t not that we didn’t know that this disparity existed right. But like I was able to stay at home work from home yet. My dad who you know doesn’t have DACA still had to go to work. He actually lost because he got covid and so did my mom and so did my sister and the way that it affected him because of, you know, him not having papers or insurance. It affected me completely different, you know, because I do have DACA now and you know, I have different accidents. So like it within, you know, families with their friends, uh you know, statuses like it was obvious right? Like from a larger perspective of like who got to stay at home and who didn’t um you know, that’s why I felt really bad complaining about some fatigue and all that stuff because I was just like, my dad is literally, you know, like he lost, he lost a job because he wasn’t able to, you know, he lost hours. And so it was just it was it was just a hot mess of like, look, you know the way that the way that the system is set up? It’s it’s not fair. And this idea of like, well word, everything’s fine now, we’re going back to normal, that’s not really like it never stopped being different for a lot of people, you know, during this pandemic, it’s strange to long for a normal in which people like your dad, your parents are working hard hours, hard, long hours on hard jobs paid too little I suspect. And that that is what actually as a society we’re coming back to is a time when that still existed rather than using this time as an opportunity to think like how could we make this better for all of us? Yeah. You know, another big shift that was for me was because my my family was affected directly. Like I have to like in the middle, you know this pandemic find a place to move in with my family, you know, because I was like I’m doing okay, lets out, let me help out. And so moving with my family again after like 10 years, uh you know, we found a new place and and it was even that search to find a place to live, oh my God again, you know, like I have DACA my family doesn’t, you know the credit check, the way that that you know there was, you know, places that I wanted to get, but because they have to do a background and my mom and my dad and like, you know, they knew I was going to pay for something that they didn’t excess, you know? And so it was it was really tough and so I think for me that kept me like every energized like shit like, you know, and I I because because I’m I’m, you know, I’m blessed book then, you know, and then I hope that keeps going like I’m trying to tell my family like, hey, like it’s okay, like, you know, I got you like, you know, and it’s really tough for for them to kind of be okay with that. But you know, it’s, it’s again this idea that they have to, you have to be producing producing, especially with migrants, like, you know, if you’re not sweating for your meal, you know, you need to think about your, you know, like, it was just, it was just horrible, but you know, we’re making it work and, and you know, I’m very um, it’s, you know, relearning boundaries with family and after, you know, you’re living on your own. You know, it’s it’s been it’s been quite interesting, but I’m happy, I’m happy. You know, like, it’s just like one of those things where like, I, you don’t realize how much you miss your family until you’re like, you know, cook meals. That was, that’s my I mean, you know, like, I’m like, I hate cooking. I worked in the food industry for so many years and like they ruined my my wanting to cook. And so having, you know, living with mom is it’s beautiful and I feel bad sometimes because like that part of me is like, ah you know, like I don’t want you to cook and I was like, let me I love cooking, so let me do it. So it’s nice to be with family again. Yeah, I mean, and I think, you know, thinking politically about one of the things that I think is beautiful about your story that you just told is the very wonderful relationship you have with your family as a very out queer guy, um who’s you know, work is very out there, very politicized, um very, very queer. Uh and you have this relationship with your parents and I think like you think about mainstream discourses around Latinos around immigrant families and the assumption of homophobia, and I love that your relationship with your parents just really debunks that yeah, I’m about to be, you know, like I’m two years away from forties, so like, well I’m from a generation that grew up with that, you know, that much access to the internet or twitter, and so like there’s this new sort of generation where like there’s so much information and what I’m seeing online a lot of the times, this is like, disconnect between the information that we put out on social media and the information that we are that we that we share with our family that are not so much, that might not be so much, you know, in social media or if they’re in social media, like some of the things that they share is like, actually let’s talk about it. But for me, you know, like, yeah, you know, I’m not going to say that, you know, it was always perfect, I don’t think and no family is perfect and and that’s that’s fine, right? Like, it’s it’s part of what makes us human beings. But I, one of the things that I always share is like, I was very lucky that a when I came out, I was I was in college and my dad was like, well, you know, that’s your choice and I accept you when I when you hear that, you know, you’re like, well, it wasn’t a choice, but at least I didn’t get kicked out. It was like a little window for me of like, opportunity to like, okay, well, let’s let me continue building on this relationship because I think I am, I don’t know what it’s like to have a gay son. I don’t know what it’s like what that did to my dad, his own like internalized homophobia and it’s been a work. Like it’s like my dad didn’t just from one day to the next was like, okay, I love my gay son. Uh, it really did take a lot for me and my mom. And you know, it’s just life in general. Like to be like, well, I need to understand my gay son, but also I need, I needed to do like my internal work to be okay with me, right? And so that has taken a lot, a lot of work and I taken my family and that journey. And I think it’s important. We don’t want to have those awkward conversations with our families, but we have because if we don’t do it, who else is going to do it? You should say, let them continue to, you know, stop on facebook. Like, I think it’s important to have this question. So I don’t mean that to do it on purpose to kind of make an example of my family being out there, but we’re really that close and just kind of going back to a lot of the times the discourse around immigration and the dream Act was very focused on on the youth and, and, you know, passing that guy and like passing the dream act and poor little immigrants. I wanted to make sure that my family’s story, it was part of that conversation as well. And so, you know, I I try to put it through my art because that’s part of my story. That’s part of who I am. Yeah, I mean, what’s interesting, I think, you know, your assessment obviously, you know, the movement so well of kind of the positioning of youth versus everybody else, basically. But you were never fully participated in that. I mean, you were always a critical of that position. Not necessarily. I think I was also part I was I was also part of that narrative. You know, I mean, I go back to some images that I made in 2010 and they’re still my facebook. You can go a lot of it was like, you know, I’m not a criminal, I’m a good person, I’m a good immigrant. I went to school. It was it was those people, you know, like my criticism around that is like it was what we knew, but how do we evolve? How do we move forward? Right. And so like around 2012 is when like, I really, you know, there’s this image that I have, where is it? Well, I think it’s in it’s in your in your book, like the one with my family, the responsible and courageous. I wasn’t having a conversation with my friend nancy messa and she’s an organizer out of L. A. And we were just like, damn, like this narrative, it was like around the time that DACA, you know, had passed and we were like our parents didn’t qualify for DACA. Damn. Like it’s kind of our fault because we’ve been throwing our parents of the other bus. We’ve been saying this narrative of like I’m a good immigrant, it was my parents fault. Like, you know, it’s because of them that I’m in this situation. And so the images that I started kind of making, I was like, I need to include my family and because they’re not being part of this conversation. And then like I also started making images about, I remember talking to my friend, you hire a car radio who was part of that first date and you know, McCain’s offensive to in 2010 and she was like, you need to be more intentional about around, you know, being queer and adding queerness and making sure that it’s not just like the gay boys, like it’s also queer women, you know, at the forefront. And so like it really the work that I’ve been doing, like it’s not like an alone thing. Like it’s been informed by the direct conversations that I’ve had with activists, with my own family, with friends and and you know, moving forward. My criticism is when we are, you know, we continue like it’s 2021 you know, like this idea that it’s just dhaka and and not just but also like what it has done with DACA too is like we still we’re still consider youth like two years from 40 and I’m still youth which I mean look at this face I don’t look you know but you know it really it really you know kind of I don’t know what the academic where there’s a word for it but like when you kind of like we’re used forever like you know but there’s there’s no girl like I’ve been you know I’ve been one of the reasons why I started the fellowship was because I’ve been in writers rooms. They’re creating a character for T. V. And the conversation around like immigration and it’s very connected to youth right? Like oh DACA and young. And I was like there’s like people who are almost in their forties right? Like imagine those stories the people that didn’t get to apply for DACA because they were like, a couple of, you know, shy away from, from, you know, having that. But so I guess what I’m trying to say is like, there’s there’s so many more stories than the, you know, poor little immigrant who couldn’t make it to school or like the academic, like, they, I don’t want to invalidate those stories, but I think we’re doing at the service to our communities when we’re not expanding those narratives. Because I say this why people get to be so complex all the time. Like, why do we only have a good immigrant of the bad immigrants? They should, they could be part of the conversation, but like, there’s, there’s more, right? There’s more stories. And, and I think that, you know, that’s why it’s, it’s not about criticizing, you know, might sound like that sometimes, but it’s just about like, no, like let’s show this other part. There’s also like new people, younger folks who are coming into movements who are barely finding out about like whether, you know, they could, you know, applied for DACA and they identify as dreamers and you know, like I don’t no longer use that term for myself because like I said, I’m almost party, but it’s for a lot of folks, it’s new languages, things that they’re learning and I think that people should be allowed to call themselves, whether they want to call themselves. And it’s just when we’re stuck in that narrative and the media keeps sharing that same narrative. It’s what kind of like, you know, bugs me and that’s why I make stuff because to me I’m like, okay, we’re going to criticize something. What are we making to counterbalance those criticisms because we can sit here on twitter all day and you know and criticize all night but what are we making? Yeah, well, I mean that’s what your work I think is always done is shifted and grown and I remember I think it was around 2016 you made this series of posters. It was called something like Coming out of all the Shadows. Do you remember those? I think so like they were so it was I I used to teach within my classes because I loved showing your growth as an artist where you had the very kind of sleek, I am undocumented posters that made you famous and then these were like messi in a different way. They had a lot of pros and they weren’t just white t shirts, you know, people like sitting in a protest with their arms locked and say fuck ice and yes, I remember which ones you’re talking about. You know, those were very much inspired by, you know, like my own, you know, kind of like the music that I kind of grew up listening to and like, you know, like going back to those, you know, like I’m talking about like, you know, we can’t kill and M I A and rage against the machine, like, you know, like those anthems of like fuck, you know, like there’s and the reason why I wanted to kind of like be messy around those and and just be in your face about it. And yes, you kind of mentioned like my growth of like going from like undocumented I’m afraid, which is great to like this idea that like damn, I’m tired of like trying to convince people that I’m good and I’m a name because that is, it gets exhausting and so I’m like, the reality is that not everybody is perfect and fuck the shit and fuck all that stuff right? But there’s so much that you can, you know, in conversations. So I am very lucky that I get to make this, you know, like put this message is out there through through art and but they’re heavily like I’m not by any means like making anything new. Like if anything, I’m sort of, you know, going back to the to the music that inspired me and made me think about a lot of these things like a lot of the images that I made in 2010 were super inspired by Maya’s, you know, album Qala, you know, like it was it was like where, you know the song paper planes, you know, like it’s about immigrants and it’s about, you know, like this idea that we want to take your jobs and you know, like a lot of that music really, you know, like it, you know, has, you know, has gone into into my art and, and you know, like that’s, that’s what another thing that I always mention is I growing up in the nineties and there was a sort of like, and please stop me if I’m going to intentions. But like, you know, like I, I don’t get to talk a lot about like kind of like my inspirations. But like, you know, in the nineties we saw this sort of like white women just like being like being allowed to, you know, be like, you have the Courtney Love’s, you had Shirley Manson, you have what’s so funny, You know, like who I get, you know, you’ve seen my art, I’m a huge fan, but sort of like them just being allowed to be vulnerable and like just, you know, really say what’s on their mind, you know, Fiona Apple is like a huge, you know, influence. So my friends make fun of me, they’re like, you have like such a white girl taste, but you know, I’m like, I’m very specific, very specific to like a certain, like, you know why women that really um you know, it really, you know, made a change in the way that like corny love was talking about me to stuff and the way that that the industry would treat women, you know, back in the early nineties and people were just kind of like, yeah, whatever, you know, but the way that she did it in a very, you know, like with really good music and and and and there was a talent there, I get a lot of that, that stuff and so in my own way I’m trying to push for that, you know, through, you know, in any medium, you know, whether it be tv writing, whether it be the art, there’s not one way of being an immigrant, you know, and so I think the America, I think the undocumented americans, you know, carla, uh Carlos book just blew my mind because it did just that, you know, like it showed other other ways of that, what other experiences beyond the dreamer experience. And I’m like, yes, more of that. Yeah, Yeah. So we have a couple minutes left, but I want to ask you then about your own work and maybe what you’re working on right now where you’re heading and you know, um, what continues to be the importance of art to migrant justice. Oh my God. Yeah. I I mean, there’s there’s so many projects that I have, like on the works and you know, she’s she’s producing short documentaries now. So I’m producing, yes, I’m producing this this uh this short documentary with I don’t think I can I mean, yeah, I can share it, I can say it, it’s going to be coming out in june, but I’m like, there’s no there’s that they decide anything. But I’m, you know, I’m working on a on a short documentary with Casey T, which is kind of like the PBS in southern California about cumbia tone and and you know, they really liked what we did with my name is Julio my short documentary. And I really like the way that, you know, they were like, you tell your own story, you know, and so we’re working, you know, working with the team on that and producing and telling our own story about what it means. Because again, right, like Rambutan is not just a party, it’s like it was, it was a result of the last administration wanting us to be sad and scared all the time. And we responded with, well we’re going to throw a party and celebrate ourselves and not be scared and have a community behind us. And so like that story, I think it’s important to tell, you know, from our own perspective. And so I’m working on that and and you know, like producing documentaries. Like it’s fun when you have a budget, you you’re able to do things like that. I I am very, I’m very lucky to like be getting this opportunities and then another big project that I’ve been sort of uh, you know, thinking about, you know, for the past couple of years is the, I think a lot of where we are right now as undocumented and queer immigrants. And I think a lot about my dear Chico, my uncle who was living as undocumented and queer in the late eighties and early nineties here in L. A. And it’s just his story. My he passed away in 2018. And I’ve always, even before he passed away I always wanted to go because he sells the quarterback to Mexico. He was like I’m tired of this shit, I’m gonna you know go back to Mexico and you know the last couple of years before his death like very rarely did I communicated with him, I never really came out to him. And so when he passed away I was like damn like this conversation that I never got to have with him and my one of my one of his sisters meta meta Maggie sent me a bunch of photographs of my uncle when he was living here in the U. S. And so I have this idea in my head of like it’s gonna be like illustrations. It’s just it’s going to be like a short film. Is it gonna be like what? So I’m working on on that and I’m being very open on on my instagram. I’ve been sharing like images that I do about my Pacheco, you know photographs of him and and and I go back to this idea that he would he lived through being undocumented. He lived through the AIDS crisis and the joy and the happiness that I see in these photos that a lot of the times like that’s all that was left but some of his friends are still alive and so I want to talk to them and and just just tell me more about my theological which I didn’t get to do when he was alive. And I hated I hated the fact because like to me it was like once I get papers, I’m going to go talk to him once I get papers and we’re going to have this like conversation. I don’t, you know, like in my head like about like, you know, I never told you about me, like tell me what it was like when it was, you know, when it was, you know, when you were my age, what was it like in L. A. How did you deal with all this stuff? And so I never got to have that. And so I’m, you know, I’m I’m kind of gonna piece what that conversation will look like. I don’t know, you know, when that would come out, but I’m it’s been a working progress and again, bringing my family whenever I talk about family, I cannot not talk about my idea Chico because when we moved to the US in 1995 you know, he lived in like a single and you know, East Hollywood and, and you know, he was like come and live with, you know, come and live with me. You know, my mom, my sister and me, we live with him for like a couple of weeks before we found a place here in Long Beach. And so that’s my family. You know, like we’re like that that’s families that immigrants, you know, we’re all in. So you know the fact that he didn’t get to tell his story. I want to figure out how to do it as a family project. This is a family project, idea is helping me put this together. So that’s, that’s kind of something I’m working on well. And you were, if I’m not mistaken, this is also about your to the butterfly wings that you’ve been working with. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, so they’re actually angel wings. Like I’m doing I’m doing like different bridges of angel wings because he was obsessed with angels. He was like whenever like in every single apartment that he had from Echo Park to like East Hollywood to like all these different places. He collected angels. And there is that connection about, you know, I was having I was talking to Joyce carol, he’s an artist. Uh he did the maricon images from the you know, late seventies. Uh and he was like around my age, a little bit older and you know, like the symbolism around angels, you know, during the, you know, the AIDS pandemic and and just what what it meant, right? And like I’m doing kind of research on why he was so obsessed with all these angels and you can see some of the photos. I’m like, I want to pull out some of the photos that like, this is like all the photos that might be a send me and they’re here with me. And I’ve been having all these dreams above him because I don’t know if it’s because I’ve been looking at these photos were like, we talk and I’m like, and every time I have those dreams, like I write them down and I’m like, you know, we’re having conversations and he’s in my mind. And so I yeah, it’s one of those things that again, I I for me when I’m creating something like that, because I wanted to be like something amazing as you know, uh and I’m usually really fast and putting stuff out, but this is like something that I’m like doing with like sharing with everybody that you know, that follows me on instagram and just conversations with families, which as artists and again, right, like I started where you’re so used to like doing stuff alone, but I’m like, no, like, you know, we more more more collaborations. It’s how, you know, we really do something that touches different people and it’s so much more informed. Especially something like this that I didn’t live through. It has to be better informed when when you’re touching on this subject. Well, I mean, I love hearing about that. I just see, I mean I’ve loved watching your growth as an artist over the last 10 years and you know, I’m a huge fan girl of yours. And so I can’t wait to see what you keep doing. And I love keeping in touch with you and I guess that’s going to wrap us up. What are you for the book of your that I did for your cover. The wings were part of like, you know, my testing out different styles of wings. So you’re part of this girl, You’re part of this thing that I’m doing, which I don’t know, but it involves angel wings. I love it. And I love being a part of anything with you and I’m so glad you decided to have this conversation with me today again, our guest today has been the fabulous Julio salgado. You can find his art Julio salgado art dot com. Thank you so much for being here today, my friend. Thank you, Karma. Thank you so much and I appreciate you talking to me today. Absolutely. And thank you to all of you for listening to this episode of audio. Cutie